Discuss Ender's Game Please

[Anonymous No.20411672]

Do you like the battleroom? So much of the book is occupied with it that I think it hurts the pacing. It leaves almost no time for command school and the simulator, which lessens the impact of the ending somewhat - it all comes just too quick. Though I can appreciate that so much was done in the battleschool that there was no need to retread the same ground, I would have liked to spend more time with the simulator battles - see more of the strategy of particular battles and how Ender copes, instead of just the broad stroke of increasing levels of difficulty.
I do like the battleroom. There are no stakes to it apart from its effect on Ender's mental state, and despite the fact that Ender easily dominates, it is so satisfying to watch him do it, and watch everyone try to keep up with him. Though it does seem like until Ender hits the scene most armies have almost no real interest in innovation or tactics. Early on Dink mentions that Rose the Nose doesn't know why he wins, and that nobody really does, and that seems about right. I'm not sure if Card overdid it in trying to make Ender smarter than everybody, or maybe it really is natural for armies to just imitate each other and repeat the same games over and over if there is no outside pressure.
On a different point, I am really wondering what about Peter would be like. I just reread the book after many years, and I never read any of the sequels. Is there one about Peter? Are any of them worth reading? Peter is a particularly interesting character because while both Ender and Valentine are plainly explained to the reader - their desires, their fears, their view of others, their contradictions - we only see Peter from those two perspectives. Just as they are unsure if he's lying when he threatens to kill them, or if he's faking when he says he loves them, Peter is a giant question mark throughout the book. He wants power, and he's merciless, but I have no real idea how he sees himself or how he justifies his own actions. He's a really effective character and without him Ender's internal struggle would fall completely flat. In fact, without Peter I think this book would be cliche and tedious, but somehow he makes it work. Because of his effect on others, I'm guessing. One thing the book handles really well is the effect that people have on each other, and how people carry others with them as they grow up.
Anyway, any thoughts on Ender's Game? Did you like it? Did you like Valentine?

[Anonymous No.20411677]

>>20411672
Nobody here reads.

[Anonymous No.20411709]

>>20411677
I just did like five minutes ago. And I figure you guys might have read this when you were young and actually did read

[Anonymous No.20412032]

movie was better than the book.

no I did not read the book

[Anonymous No.20412129]

>>20411672
>Do you like the battleroom?
Yes, I loved it! And so did J.K. Rowling because she stole a lot from Ender's Game when she wrote Harry Potter.
>I never read any of the sequels. Is there one about Peter? Are any of them worth reading?
I know a lot of people love the sequels. Only one I read was Speaker For The Dead and I hated it so much. It might be my least fave book from him. I actually ripped it up and tossed it out I was so disappointed with it.
>Anyway, any thoughts on Ender's Game? Did you like it?
For me it was the perfect boyhood fantasy escape. It was my Harry Potter. I wanted so bad to be Ender. I can still taste it to this day decades later. One of the best days of my life was just getting away from depression by myself in my teens in a canoe. I felt like Ender that day. I think it was a raft he was on or something like that.
>Did you like Valentine?
Honestly I don't even remember much about her.

[Anonymous No.20412139]

It was okay, not my favorite.

[Anonymous No.20412159]

>>20412129
yes, they ship him down to earth for a week or so sometime and he meets up with his sister and spends the time lying down in a boat and crushing bugs between his fingers and telling valentine he hates everything.

[Anonymous No.20412190]

>>20412129
>Yes, I loved it! And so did J.K. Rowling because she stole a lot from Ender's Game when she wrote Harry Potter.
Did she? Off the top of my head I can't think of anything in particular, other than Harry teaching other students in his spare time. Quite frankly, if J.K. did steal, she probably should have stolen more. It would have been nice to see Harry in the last two books being more like Ender.
>Only one I read was Speaker For The Dead and I hated it so much. It might be my least fave book from him. I actually ripped it up and tossed it out I was so disappointed with it.
Disappointing. I never read the sequels because I liked Ender's Game so much that I expected they would ruin it. For only covering the beginning of Ender's life, it's a pretty complete story.
>One of the best days of my life was just getting away from depression by myself in my teens in a canoe. I felt like Ender that day. I think it was a raft he was on or something like that.
That is very cool, man. I envy you. Sounds like a great experience. I think one of my goals for this year should be to try and escape to nature for little bit. Go out on the water, like you and Ender.

>>20412159
It's not so much that he hates everything, but that he doesn't care about anything. All his ambition has been sapped.

[Anonymous No.20412208]

>>20412129
>Yes, I loved it! And so did J.K. Rowling because she stole a lot from Ender's Game when she wrote Harry Potter.

Heh, I remember in middle school when Harry Potter first came out, I asked my friend (who had recommended Ender's Game to me) if it was any good. He described it as 'Magic Ender's Game, if all the kids were retarded'.

[Anonymous No.20412296]

>>20411672
>So much of the book is occupied with it that I think it hurts the pacing. It leaves almost no time for command school and the simulator, which lessens the impact of the ending somewhat - it all comes just too quick.
I appreciated why he did this only after I tried to write fiction myself. It's difficult to make the simulator battles as interesting as the battleroom ones since there's a dearth of physical action. It would be like describing a chess game or a real-time strategy game. It could be interesting, but it's hard to write. Also iirc, Card had the idea when he thought about how soldiers might train in space (I think when he was visiting an air force base or something), everything derives from that one seed. The whole reason they're children for example, is because he hypothesized that adults might have a lot of difficulty adjusting to zero-gravity and 3D movement, which would constrain their strategies. And since they're kids, the training would have to be framed as a game--or better yet, a sport. And the kids would have to be smart to handle the complexity of the sport. Smart kids are rare, so they would have to be bred.

The only issue I have with the book is the stock bug-alien antagonist and the tacked on ending to set up the sequel (which he had apparently come up with first). Nevertheless it plays into the themes of individuality vs. communalism as evolutionary strategies for survival. I think what I like most about the book is how neatly plotted it is. Every little thing is used to set up the twist at the end. From the very first line about the doctor lying to Ender that taking off the monitor is not going to hurt. Sadly, none of Card's other books are as good, including the sequels (and there IS one about Peter iirc).

[Anonymous No.20412421]

>>20412296
I liked the reasoning for why the bugs attacked Earth and how it connected to what Ender was doing. The bugs didn't know that human beings were thinking creatures when they attacked but are condemned for the deaths they caused, while Ender was kept ignorant about the deaths he caused and that was used to cleanse him of sin. Card throws all the blame and guilt (if there is any to be had) on the commanders who trained Ender, and then breezes by the trial for Colonel Graff and the other commanders in charge of the school in the rush to the finish, but there's a lot that could be said about guilt and whether ignorance is really a perfect shield when the actions are murder and genocide. The bugs themselves are seemingly absolved by the end but the question remains - did they deserve to die? It's tragic that such a series of confusions should bring all that death, but shouldn't someone pay for it?

[Anonymous No.20412548]

>>20412421
I felt the book made the point well that ignorance should not be conflated with innocence (the inverse of which is explored through the Peter and Valentine subplot), which is why Card has Ender spend the rest of his life making amends for the xenocide. The other aspect of this is the biological tendency to suspend considerations of morality when faced with an existential threat. I mean even Graff and the other commanders ultimately get absolved of all their crimes in the end.

[Anonymous No.20413028]

>>20411672
I liked this book a lot when I was a young fella. I also loved Speaker for the Dead but I have a sneaking suspicion that I didn't really understand it at all. I should reread them.

[Anonymous No.20413185]

>>20411672
It's well written so I enjoyed reading it. But when I go back and think about it it's retarded (the battle room)
> Hardcore military academy for geniuses
> Nobody ever thought of attacking quickly, instead they all wasted time lining up in pointless formations until ever invented rushing
> I'm fact they didn't even bother teaching their new soldiers how to aim
> Didn't realize that frozen soldiers were invincible
> Didn't even bother to read what the actual win condition was
Ender only looks good because he was playing in bronze league. The bugs would have slaughtered humanity if that's the best we could produce.

[Anonymous No.20413200]

>>20412190
You have a school for specially talented kids with zero gravity sports.

[Anonymous No.20413221]

>>20412208
Now I want a new Ender's Game novel where they have a special needs school.

[Anonymous No.20413324]

Iirc Peter is a major character in Ender's Shadow. I enjoyed the sequels when I was a kid.

[Anonymous No.20413355]

>>20411672
>Do you like the battleroom?
Yes, and I'm surprised that an unathletic geek was able to write those sections so well

[Anonymous No.20413800]

>>20411677
fpbp

[Anonymous No.20414763]

Xenocide was my favorite

[Anonymous No.20414853]

>>20411672
I read it so long ago that the parts that I remember most are the battleroom scenes and the very ending. I did like it, I think the book was perfect to read at 11 or 12 since it really speaks to a young male mindset while being appropriately edgy
>>20413324
Ender's Shadow was great, but I didn't read anything afterwards though.

[Anonymous No.20414864]

>>20411672
Was a good ride,I only gladly remove the anime tier incest and the evil Uchiha brother conquering the world via Not2Chan.

[Anonymous No.20415147]

>>20411672
just read 'Hamlet's Father' instead
>spoiler: OSC is Hamlet

[Anonymous No.20415156]

>>20412129
>raft
IIRC It's one of those little dinghy boats for fishing on small lakes.

[Anonymous No.20416635]

>>20413200
Eh. I'd agree if Quidditch was anything more than a tangent at Hogwarts. It's closer to football than the battleroom, as it doesn't serve any educational purpose or really have an impact on the school's social hierarchy. It's only purpose, really, is for J.K. to include the flying on broomsticks part of witchcraft, which is a staple.

[Anonymous No.20416716]

>>20411672
Disagree, if more time was spent on the command school then it would give away the twist. Glossing over it makes it seem unimportant. The battle room by contrast can't be mistaken for fighting in a real war, so it contributes to rather than belies the misdirection which is the essential contrivance of the plot. It's also more interesting because it involves many other character's of Ender's age and how he navigates through those social interactions while learning to be a leader.

[Anonymous No.20416726]

>>20411672
>Peter
I can't guarantee this but I know Ender's Shadow gets into the political situation on earth, which would obviously involve Peter. Shadow itself retreads Ender's Game from a different perspective, but its sequels probably feature Peter.

[Anonymous No.20416916]

Here's the thing about Ender's Game - Orson Scott Card isn't that great of a writer. The first Ender's Game book, the sequel (Speaker for the Dead), and Ender's Shadow are the few exceptions to the trash this guy's put out. He fleshes out Peter a bit more in Speaker, but almost entirely drops the character for the rest of the books in the Ender's Game line. The interesting concepts Ender's Game brings up get drowned out in somewhat generic action for the rest of the series. I don't recommend.

[Anonymous No.20416932]

>>20416916
One or two great books is probably the most that most decent authors can ask for. I think perhaps the writing in the later books (after Ender's Shadow) is bad because the material sort of dried up but he decided to keep going with it when he shouldn't have.

[Anonymous No.20416946]

i dunno why this dude talks about naked boys all the time. i liked the books but remember there were a lot of parts where the author describes them stripping down and flapping their dicks around and stuff, was really weird

[Anonymous No.20417133]

>>20411672
I love Ender's Game and both of the series that derive from it. If you haven't read Ender's Shadow, I recommend giving it a look. It is from Bean's perspective and really does a good job of showing WHY the battle room is so useful, and so harmful. Basically in Ender's Game, Card explores the mechanics and tactics that are employed in the battle room. In Ender's Shadow, he explores the psychological and interpersonal effects of the battle room. The two complete each other, the material and the intangible each being the focus of their own stories. Command school is also fleshed out more, as well as the reason for Ender's exceptionally short time there. Bean is actually smarter than Ender (or at least less trusting of authority) and because of that we get to see him piece together what is going on with the extremely limited information he has. His POV in the final assault on the Bugger homeworld is magnificent.

If you want Peter's story, read the Shadow saga. That consists of Ender's Shadow, Shadow of the Hegemon, Shadow Puppets, Shadow of the Giant, and Shadows in Flight. The middle 3 books in that list really focus on Peter growing into the kind of man who can unite the human race. There's a particularly wonderful chapter in Shadow of the Giant where Peter's years of planning and preparing finally come together. Peter might actually be my favorite character in the entire series because of that chapter.

I think my favorite thing about Card's universe is how alien the aliens actually are. So many aliens in fiction are just humans with skittles skin colors or stupid shit glued to their heads. The Formics, Pequeninos, Descolada, and Jane are all some of the most interesting alien races that I've ever seen in fiction, period. Overall, these books don't just hold up as an adult, they're massively improved.

[Anonymous No.20417280]

>>20417133
Excellent post. Your enthusiasm has convinced me. I will for sure be reading Speaker for the Dead and Ender's Shadow, and seeing how those go I'll see about the rest.
It's been a long time since I read a series. Should be fun.

[Anonymous No.20417381]

>>20414763
Xenocide is where the series got weird. In a good way though

[Anonymous No.20417398]

>>20417280
If you have the means, I highly, HIGHLY recommend the audiobooks, expecially for Ender's Shadow and those sequels. Scott Brick as Bean is probably my favorite narrator I've ever listened to, and that includes Jim Dale and Mike Kramer/Kate Reading.

Peter's VA is also really great, he has this world weary, tired voice that really shines a different light on the intensity and drive Peter possesses. There's a scene at the start of the Children of the Mind audiobook that calls back to his narrator from the Shadow series too.

[Anonymous No.20417502]

>>20417398
I've never listened to an audio book before. I don't know if it's for me. A lot of what I like about reading is involved in the experience of actually reading. But I'll definitely consider it for a second run through if I like it the first time.

Anyway, I've ordered Speaker for the Dead, Xenocide and Children of the Mind. Was going to use the library but I'm willing to roll the dice on this one. Expect more Ender threads in the future.

How do you guys feel about libraries vs buying books? Part of me wants to get back to the days when I was always borrowing and every book on my own personal shelf was one I especially loved. The other part likes owning books.

[Anonymous No.20417537]

>>20417502
I love the library. That's basically how I got into reading before I had the money to just purchase books that I want to read. I'm a fan of audiobooks because I like to work with my hands while listening. When I was a kid that meant playing with lego, now it means doing the dishes or driving to work.
Fair warning, Speaker for the Dead, Xenocide and Children of the Mind are all different from Ender's Game in terms of the way they read. Card definitely evolves as an author over the course of their writing. They deal a lot more directly with sci-fi and metaphysical themes as the story goes on. Still very good books (Speaker for the Dead is my personal favorite) but definitely a different flavor from Ender's Game.

[Anonymous No.20417545]

>>20412032
No, the movie was mediocre at best. I went to middle school with the guy who played Alai, so it was cool seeing him, but other than that it was a letdown. Also it was funny that they made the Spanish bully a manlet when he's supposed to be a physical threat to Ender.

[Halo No.20417750]

>>20417545
I've read about 10 of the Ender's Game books but have intentionally avoided watching the movie so it doesn't affect my mental memory of the book.

[Anonymous No.20417808]

>>20411672
It’s been a while since I read it, but I loved it. I would’ve loved to read more if the story continued, but the ending was good enough to not ruin something I enjoyed.

[Anonymous No.20418412]

>>20411672
Interesting idea about human compassion getting in the way of human survival (with having to trick the kid into making psycopath decisions). Not only do humans seem fairly capable of dehumanizing each other, but it also feels like we have the hardware to convince ourselves of 'greater good' if we don't take the dehumanizing route. Not sure we would actually have to trick somebody into saving our kind with drastic measures.

[Anonymous No.20418447]

>>20411672
I really like the sequels but you need to know there`s a few different paths. I don`t know the official names for them so forgive me.

First you have Ender`s line which I loved. Speaker for the Dead is my favorite book of all time. I would say go right to that one next. Technically Ender in Exile is next on the timeline but it feels like a weird vacation and was written years later. It`s good but since so much of Speaker is about Ender dealing with the first book it`s a weird pit stop.

There`s the Shadow line. Which is Beans story. It starts with Ender`s Shadow which crosses over with Ender`s Game. The books eventually turn into a war, strategy and espionage type thing. You also get a lot more Peter in this series.

The you have the Earth series. Can`t remember the order but they are prequals and he cowrote them with someone else. I honestly got a little bored with these. I know the ending and having yet another brilliant kid set up to save the day got tiring.

Lastly you have The Last Shadow which is sort of like a victory lap. You get to see how the future looks after the end of the story. It`s alright.

[Anonymous No.20418595]

>>20411672
peter basically becomes the president of the earth at some point. Ender's Game was a bit forward thinking in that you have all these diplomats engaging in discussion on their version of the internet. Peter and Valentine start manipulating and leading discussions to the extent that peter gains a following with the help of valentine acting as his ideological opponent. All 3 siblings are shown to have extraordinary intelligence but I forget why exactly ender was chosen to go to space other than that he was a 3rd

[Anonymous No.20418690]

>>20418595
Val was too compassionate and Peter was too psycho, Ender had the right mix. Enough compassion to understand his enemy and enough psycho to destroy them.

[Anonymous No.20418743]

>>20418595
>Ender's Game was a bit forward thinking in that you have all these diplomats engaging in discussion on their version of the internet. Peter and Valentine start manipulating and leading discussions to the extent that peter gains a following with the help of valentine acting as his ideological opponent.
Yeah imagine if there was a version of 4channel everyone on earth read, and two geniuses were making effortposts of high enough value back and forth that their discussion defined the political narrative and garnered them enough support to actually become the leader. That's how I remember that.

[Anonymous No.20418770]

Amazing YA books. I loved the hierarchy of foreignness, really interesting idea to make the plot revolve around whether the formics are ramans or varelses.
>Do you like the battleroom?
Never thought about it, i guess that's the core of the book ? It may be a somehow childish way to show ender's psychology, but it worked just fine for me
>Sequels ?
I've always read the quintet as a whole, it explores different topics but overall i consider it as one book, there's a unifying theme linking them. The earth serie was shit tho.
>Did you like Valentine?
Uninteresting in the main serie, i do believe it's explained in the last book because we only see valentine and peter through the lense of ender, that's why they're so cliché and boring. Jane is a great side character imo

[Anonymous No.20419432]

>>20418412
The trick was necessary because they needed Ender to be much more compassionate than normal people, so that he could not only work seamlessly with his team but also so that he could understand the bugger mindset. A normal person would probably accept the rationalization, but if Ender knew the consequences of his actions there is a good chance he wouldn't act. At the very least it would affect his performance if he knew he was sacrificing real ships.