/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.20406160]

Why does there seem to be a massive gap in the canon's chronology between the romans and the medieval era? It's like, Rome stuff, Decline, Augustine, Boethius all stops at c.400AD and then next thing you know you're reading Anselm and Aquinas in 1100 AD+. What happened to literature and philosophy between those times?
Any books to illuminate these dark ages? Preferably texts from the era, but well written history books will suffice too.

[Anonymous No.20406209]

>>20406160
St. Isidor is considered the last scholar of the ancient world. Wrote the first christian encyclopedia in the 6th century AD. Because he was so extensive in his research, people didn't really look to the source materials anymore, which contributed to em being lost in time. Monks were mostly occupied with copying older works, and making their ideas compatible with christianity. After the Romans came the reign of the Germanic Kingdoms. The Germanic tribes had an oral tradition for not just stories but also their laws and how to lead your life. When centralized empires came back in fashion, their monarchs felt the need to have laws written down so there couldnt be any doubts about em.
This is super simplified but if you want to know more about these times, look towards the religious and the history of laws.

[Anonymous No.20406234]

I guess the opee misses the same same as me...obscure, juicy texts with details of the lifes of the great men of the vi-viii century. Maybe even reflections over the iv-v-vi dc from the perspective of vii-viii. I miss some herodian-like crap summarizing events of the last emperor but from the point of view of people already starting to have romance languages.

Or imagine, somebody describing obscure lineages of Dacia or the franks in the VII....we may never know many of the tiny,microscopy dukes and princes or even large villages that lasted being roman though the early middle ages to completly dissapear with a minor, secondary german migration.

[Anonymous No.20406254]

>>20406209
>>20406234
I mean you can't throw a rock in a bookstore's history section without hitting something about Rome or 1100-1500AD, and there's nothing in between. Not only a lack of works from the era, but a lack of works about the era. Was it that uninteresting?

[Anonymous No.20406257]

Check out Procopius and Gregory of Tours for the 6th century.

[Anonymous No.20406275]

>>20406254
Not uninteresting but Europeans just didn't write it down. It's a bit similar to how we know lots about the wars and myths of the ancient greeks, but nothing too "normal". In the Austrian version of the Nibelungen saga they describe the war against the Huns. It's a big battle and has some mystical aspects. I think it's hard to research something historical that's not written down and you can only speculate so much.
I know your pain though anon, ever since i played Shadow of the Colossus as a kid i've been interested in forgotten cultures. The franks and a lot of other germanic tribes are such mysterious peoples.

[Anonymous No.20406276]

The Matter of France was mostly written towards the end of the first millenium. Also of note are some works of Celtic legendary history such as the Imram Brain and Imram Maelduin among others, and texts composed later from oral traditions like the Maninogion and the Taliesin which were influential on the Grail romances. If you want to dig deep into Arthurian and Celtic stuff there is plenty from this period and into the later Middle Ages, although the best place to start would probably be Malory's La Morte d'Arthur (Vinaver's "Malory: Complete Works" is the definitive edition). Also the Norse sagas and chronicles were put down later from oral tradition at that time.

[Anonymous No.20406293]

>>20406275
To add a bit to this, i kinda think there is a certain disdain from the general populace to this time period. Archeologists and history buffs would kill for more knowledge about these times but people are still taught how these times led to decay and were the basis of the ignorant christian west. Even the somewhat more educated people lament the "loss of knowledge" "caused by christians"

[Anonymous No.20406298]

>>20406293
There are still brainlets that cry about the library of Alexandria yet never call out Islam.

[Anonymous No.20406311]

>>20406298
People see what they want to see, it's exoticism for the lot of them.

[Anonymous No.20406348]

>>20406160
The most you can read from the period between Isidore of Seville and John Scotus Eriugena is John Damascene, the later ecumenical councils, the iconoclasm controversy, and the Photian schism. Basically a bunch of eastern theological stuff. Alternatively if you want something non-European or non-Christian you can read the Islamic scholastics since at least they were Platonistic and Aristotelian, which brings them into continuity with Greek and Roman thought, and Islam also stems from Christianity so some of their theological musings about God are sort of in continuity with the Christian themes, both before them and especially after (Averroes greatly inspired Aquinas). The main reason there wasn't much in the so-called Dark Ages is that with the fall of Spain to the Muslims and most of Europe still Pagan, the entirety of western Christendom was limited to just the British isles and the Frankish Empire.

[Anonymous No.20406374]

>>20406254
>Was it that uninteresting?
It's not that it was uninteresting, it's that you just had a perfect storm that leads to a lack of written records.

The Germanic tribes had been only partially literate (they had writing and used it for stuff like labeling, but they didn't write "texts" or "works"), and their introduction to literacy was done by the Romans, who very quickly took up a radical universalist religion that was desperately trying to destroy all of its written history. The religion was introduced to the the Germanics, and suddenly all of the stuff that they had to write down (their histories, laws, religions, epic poems, mysticism, etc) was now forbidden. The political structures of the day were all little more than thugs and warlords which isn't conducive to scholarship, and the clergy at this time was still a relic from Constantine's central-planning efforts and was more concerned with making sure that the plantations owned by monks were running than writing poems or whatever.

>>20406298
People constantly call out the Muslims for this.

[Anonymous No.20406405]

>>20406298
The difference with muslims and mongols destroying european history and knowledge is they are foreign and it’s hardly surprising, the christian’s on the other hand are far far worse as they destroyed their own peoples history over a foreign religion they followed
So while both are condemned, one rightfully is condemned more so

[Anonymous No.20406408]

>>20406374
Not really. Look at the wiki for the library and the section of Caesars so called mythical burning is longer than the part about sandniggers outright going on a burning spree because kuffar shit was Haram. Jews are despicable with their pilpul.

[Anonymous No.20406415]

>>20406405
The only reason pagan shit has any historical footing is because Christian monks had the kindness to preserve the dumbfuck ideas of godless barbarians.

[Anonymous No.20406428]

>>20406415
lol by preserve you mean the followers of that jewish religion managed to only destroy 99% of the ancient works not 100%

[Anonymous No.20406437]

>>20406415
The same dumbfuck ideas we both got from the epic of gilgamesh you dumb faggot

[Anonymous No.20406443]

>>20406428
I wish they'd destroyed all of it so yiu larpers wouldn't exist
you're no different than asian-americans whining about colonialism, by the way

[Anonymous No.20406466]

>>20406443
>Oi vey! I wish people could only larp as hebrews and follow my jewish rabbi on a stick
Kek

[Anonymous No.20406469]

>>20406374
>People constantly call out the Muslims for this.
The myth of the 'islamic golden age' is still hanging around, despite their golden age being completely based around the books they looted from christian monasteries and then claiming that they helped preserve ancient knowledge that the christians would've burned, a perfect example of accusing others of the crimes you yourself did. To this day arabs are still vehement that they invented algebra, not the greeks, despite many algebraic equations being ripped from pythagoras and other greek mathematicians.

[Anonymous No.20406497]

>>20406469
Sure, but people constantly call them out on this.

>completely based around the books they looted from christian monasteries
It's not really fair to say that when the monks were the ones opening the gates to let the Arabs so that they might convert the city. North Africa and the Levant were filled with non-Trinitarian Christians.

[Anonymous No.20406512]

>>20406466
You'll never be able to inlfitrate the republic party if you worship thor you stupid larper

[Anonymous No.20406528]

>>20406469
greek geometrical algebra is extremely rudimentary compared with the arithmetical algebra that the muslims learned from the hindus. There was certainly an islamic golden age. It precipitated the 12th century renaissance. But the muslim destruction of Nalanda as well as Qutayba ibn Muslim's torching of central asia, to the point of erasing entire languages like Khwarezmian, and literatures from history, is perhaps the most egregious crime ever committed in intellectual history.

[Anonymous No.20406533]

>>20406160
the cabin as formalized is a meme, lots of books should be added

[Anonymous No.20406541]

>>20406497
bullcrap, we all know that was the jews

[Anonymous No.20406542]

>>20406512
What the fuck is this even supposed to mean?

[Anonymous No.20406546]

>>20406466
friendly reminder that the same people will make arguments like these, be proven wrong by simply quoting acts and then move immediately to say that the church is still invalid because it's a pagan scam made by the pagan Romans.

[Anonymous No.20406550]

>>20406541
And the Egyptians. And the Berbers. And the general Semitic milieu of the Levant at the time that were constantly revolting over the supposed tritheism of the Byzantine Empire.

[Anonymous No.20406557]

>>20406546
Did you quote the wrong person?

>>20406469
>The myth of the 'islamic golden age' is still hanging around
>their golden age being completely based around the books they looted from christian monasteries
So which is it? Was there or was there not a period of prosperity in the Islamic world owing to their mass absorption of the non-Nicene Christian population of North Africa and the Levant?

[Anonymous No.20406562]

>>20406557
fuck you varg gets welfare in france go read acts larper

[Anonymous No.20406570]

>>20406562
What possible effect did you think that this gibberish would have if you posted it?

[Anonymous No.20406578]

>>20406557
no i quoted the right one because I'm accostumed to the rhetorical tricks employed.

[Anonymous No.20406595]

>>20406550
you're changing subjects you blamed suicidal trinitarian monks letting non trinitarian Muslims in so they then could convert the nontrinitarian inhabitants of the cities. How does it feel arguing dishonestly every time?

[Anonymous No.20406600]

>>20406542
That LARPing as
>muh pre-Christian Indo-European h-heritage!
Isn't a viable political strategy if you wanna build a better world for your people.

[Anonymous No.20406606]

>>20406293

[Anonymous No.20406650]

The funny thing is that most pagans dont care whether paganism is ‘true’ or not, they just care about how it makes them feel.

[Anonymous No.20406666]

>>20406650
Proddie as fuck. Those larpers can barely hide it.

[Anonymous No.20406806]

Where do certain alleged memory-holed possible civilizations fit into that?

[Anonymous No.20406828]

>>20406469
Pythagoras was Arab

[Anonymous No.20406879]

>>20406469
> completely based around the books they looted from christian monasteries
Lol you mean pre christcuck books they preserved while euro burnt theirs?

[Anonymous No.20406886]

>>20406512
I’m not american retard

[Anonymous No.20406892]

>>20406546
> be proven wrong
I’m waiting christcuck

[Anonymous No.20406898]

>>20406562
I love that varg still makes golems seethe, talk about rent free
pray to rabbi yeshua more

[Anonymous No.20406904]

>>20406595
>suicidal
Why are you being dishonest here? Suicide was never discussed. What does that even have to do with this? We know from attestation at the time that non-Trinitarian Christians saw Muslims as being their brothers in faith against the (so called) tritheistic pagans in Byzantium. We know that alliances were made between non-Trinitarian Christian clerics and the Islamic forces as the non-Trinitarian clerics sought to join with their (perceived) monotheistic brothers. We also know that there was a huge popular attempt at conversion that had to be stifled by the Islamic authorities to maintain incomes accrued through Jizya and out of fear that the massive number of converts would result in the Muhammad's garbage getting lost.

[Anonymous No.20406905]

>>20406650
it’s true in as it’s a European religion created by Europeans, they just don’t want to follow you jewish religion invented by jews

[Anonymous No.20406907]

>>20406892
I already did, I showed that you're arguing dishonesty and I don't have to counterargue you unless you treat the argument honestly. It's point number one of arguing and the reason it's funny to read Socrates humiliate the sophists.

[Anonymous No.20406908]

>thread about early Medieval history
>turns into larpers getting butthurt that we still have the iliad
like fucking clockwork lmfao

[Anonymous No.20406911]

>>20406904
you are arguing that trinitarian Christian monks let Muslims inside the cities and opened the gates what other result would follow except their death?

[Anonymous No.20406913]

>>20406293
what a bullshit graph based on absolutely nothing

[Anonymous No.20406917]

>>20406905
it's not a Jewish religion since Jews hate it.

[Anonymous No.20406921]

>>20406911
Why are you being dishonest? You aren't even arguing, you're just making shit up. NON-TRINITARIAN Christians, such as Monophysites and Miaphysites, saw themselves and Muslims as being of the same religion, and they willingly conspired with their perceived co-religionists.

You are aware what a "non-Trinitarian Christian" is, right?

[Anonymous No.20406932]

>>20406921
this is not what you argued in the beginning in any way shape or form.
I am indeed aware of what non trinitarian Christians are, there's even people who argue that Islam started as a group of non trinitarian christians and that Muhammed was an invention which started as a title for Jesus.

[Anonymous No.20406959]

>>20406917
lol wot? is hitler not German if Germans hate him?
It’s jewish because that’s the people that invented it, you literally pray to a jewish rabbi, it’s jewish

[Anonymous No.20407004]

Dan Carlin gives these books as references for his episode about the dark ages:

A History of the Franks by Gregory of Tours
Barbarians to Angels: The Dark Ages Reconsidered by Peter S. Wells
Caesar and Christ: A History of Roman Civilization and of Christianity from Their Beginnings to A.D. 325 (Story of Civilization) by Will Durant
Charlemagne: Father of a Continent by Alessandro Barbero
Daily Life in the World of Charlemagne by Pierre Rich
Early Medieval Europe, 300-1000 by Roger Collins
Emperor of the West: Charlemagne and the Carolingian Empire by Hywel Williams
Fall of the Roman Empire: The Military Explanation by Arther Ferrill
Maurice's Strategikon: Handbook of Byzantine Military Strategy by George T. Dennis
Northern World: The History and Heritage of Northern Europe by Christine E. Fell
The Age of Faith: A History of Medieval Civilization-Christian, Islamic, and Judaic-From Constantine to Dante : A.D. 325-1300 by Will Durant
The Barbarian Invasions: History of the Art of War, Volume II by Hans Delbrück
The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon
The Fall of Rome: And the End of Civilization by Bryan Ward-Perkins
The Fall of the Roman Empire: A New History of Rome and the Barbarians by Peter Heather
The Franks (The Peoples of Europe) by Edward James
The Inheritance of Rome: Illuminating the Dark Ages 400-1000 by Chris Wickham
The Life of Charlemagne by Einhard

[Anonymous No.20408538]

>>20406160
Christianity caused a dark age

[Anonymous No.20408835]

>>20406606
The original data hoarders.

[Anonymous No.20408843]

BUT UHH ACKSHUALLY THERE ARE *SOME* SOURCES SO THAT MEANS IT'S NOT ACTUALLY A DARK AGE
GUESS THE DARK AGES WERENT SO 'DARK' AFTER ALL

[Anonymous No.20408881]

The kind of people who are really invested in saying what is part of the Western Canon are generally very sniffy about medieval european epic poetry. Like that "thing vs thing but japanese" meme but with greeks/romans instead of nips.

Plus every since the 16th century people have had a vested interest to make it seem like monks were braining each other with sharpened rocks before they translated Aristotle into Latin so the enlightenment seems more impactful.

[Anonymous No.20409107]

>>20406293
Post the full version.

[Anonymous No.20409138]

>>20406546
Constantine and his consequences were a disaster for the church.

[Anonymous No.20409158]

>The phantom time hypothesis is a historical conspiracy theory asserted by Heribert Illig. First published in 1991, it hypothesizes a conspiracy by the Holy Roman Emperor Otto III, Pope Sylvester II, and possibly the Byzantine Emperor Constantine VII, to fabricate the Anno Domini dating system retroactively, in order to place them at the special year of AD 1000, and to rewrite history to legitimize Otto's claim to the Holy Roman Empire. Illig believed that this was achieved through the alteration, misrepresentation and forgery of documentary and physical evidence. According to this scenario, the entire Carolingian period, including the figure of Charlemagne, is a fabrication, with a "phantom time" of 297 years (AD 614–911) added to the Early Middle Ages.

let me guess, you need more?