/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.20328477]

What was I supposed to take away from this book?

[Anonymous No.20328484]

women wreck men and families, and the only salvation is turning to christ

[Anonymous No.20328490]

>>20328477
it was a prank to waste days of your life

[Anonymous No.20328685]

rebellion, grand inquisitor, the devil chapters, and the zosima part should have been pretty clear about the message

[Anonymous No.20328707]

>>20328477
He was just kidding

[Anonymous No.20328779]

Live, Laugh, Love

[Anonymous No.20328871]

Love of life and mankind trumps all else

[Anonymous No.20329029]

>>20328477
You don't, the novel is unfinished. The second half would have had Alyosha kill the Tsar and it would have been Dostoevskys final renunciation of Russia and the orthodox Church (he pretended to be a devout Christian later in his life but remained a staunch socialist).

[Anonymous No.20329305]

>>20329029

[Anonymous No.20329313]

It could be the best novel I've read if there wasn't a whole chapter describing the dying monk's life and the boy with the dog.

[Anonymous No.20329338]

>>20328477
Life as a 19th century provincial Russian peasant is the purest form of existence.

Thankfully, rural Russia today is still indistinguishable from the 19th century thanks to the Based Soviets and Based Putin.

[Anonymous No.20329347]

>>20329029
>Alyosha kills the Tsar
>Dosto rejects Orthodox church
>Dosto remains a socialist
Its time to stop projecting, anon.

[Anonymous No.20329359]

>>20329029
>tfw the socialists are so bereft of writers with soul they try to appropriate the fiercely Christian Dostoevsky

[Anonymous No.20329366]

>>20328477
Read Пpecтyплeниe и нaкaзaниe first if you didn't get this the first time around.

[Anonymous No.20329371]

>>20329359
Zola? Orwell? Steinbeck? Garcia Marquez? Le Guin?

[Anonymous No.20329372]

>>20329029
>The second half would have had Alyosha kill the Tsar and it would have been Dostoevskys final renunciation of Russia and the orthodox Church
Holy shit. Mishima is literally the spiritual successor of Dostoevsky.

[Anonymous No.20329374]

>>20329371
I don't recognize a single name there so they're probably hacks

[Anonymous No.20329381]

>>20329347
>>20329359
>Dosto rejects Orthodox church
Dosto did reject the Church. Do you even remember the Grand Inquisitor? Rodion's spiritual guide being a prostitute, not a priest? Zosima being an ascetic Elder, estranged from the church and shunned even by the rest of his monastery?

Dosto was unquestionably spiritual, and in large parts that spirituality was Christian, but he was firmly in the opposition with the (political, corrupt, self-serving) Orthodox Church of his time. The church officials responded in kind, criticized him in the press for what they saw as heresy, and made numerous attempts to apply Tsarist censorship to his works.

[Anonymous No.20329382]

>>20329374
Retard

[Anonymous No.20329384]

>>20329381
>The grand inquisitor is proof of my argument
Ah yes, Dostoevsky because Dostoevsky was Roman Catholic now?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIgfiSzCy1o

[Anonymous No.20329421]

>>20329384
You're splitting hairs. Dosto makes no distinction between Catholic and Orthodox churches, which he sees as institutions that use spirituality to make themselves into mortal rulers of people, instead of saving their souls. I hereby invite you to present one positive passage or quote specifically about the Church, or at least a single positive clergyman character.

Oh wait, you can't - you can only go
>Dosto is spiritual and spirituality = Church, because the Church is the only font of spirituality, as we can see from this plot of a fellow receiving his spiritual guidance from... uh, a prostitute.

[Anonymous No.20329714]

>>20328779
this.

[Anonymous No.20329733]

>>20329381
>Do you even remember the Grand Inquisitor?
The Grand Inquisitor was Catholic you retard, it was anti-Catholic polemic specifically because Dostoevsky was a staunch Russian Orthodox Christian.

[Anonymous No.20329738]

>>20328477
pure /lit/ kino

[Anonymous No.20329740]

>>20329738
read more books

[Anonymous No.20329742]

>>20328477
That it is not too late to reconnect with your father, both the one on Earth, and the one on Heaven

[Anonymous No.20329744]

>>20329733
read what he said here retard >>20329421

[Anonymous No.20329755]

>>20329384
>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIgfiSzCy1o

who posts so cringe?
is this a reddit thing or what

[Anonymous No.20329760]

>>20329744
That guy is completely wrong though? Dosto absolutely does make a distinction between the Catholic and Orthodox churches.

[Anonymous No.20329774]

You can now tell people you've read it.

[Anonymous No.20329811]

>>20329774
This, I finished it recently, no new insights or understanding

[Anonymous No.20329869]

>>20329313
Kek both of those were some of my favourite chapters

[Anonymous No.20329874]

>>20328477
Nothing, it's pulp fiction like books by Lovecraft and Howard. It's good pulp fiction tho

[Anonymous No.20329953]

>>20329371
Orwell was not a socialist. Read anything about his life. He was also shit so not a great example anyway.

[Anonymous No.20329967]

>>20328477
That being a Russian fucking sucks.

[Anonymous No.20330498]

>>20329313
Those were my favorite parts, fuck you

[Anonymous No.20330856]

>>20329371
>Le Guin

[Anonymous No.20330879]

Your bookmark to use while reading the next book

[Anonymous No.20330950]

Dont go spouting bullshit and act suprised when that bullshit gets someone killed.

[Anonymous No.20331108]

>>20328477
Universally having a christ-like love will make you happier, and will make the world a better place.

[Anonymous No.20331601]

>>20329869
>>20330498
Why? They seemed like filler.

[Anonymous No.20332098]

Atheists trying to into Dostoevsky is always the funniest shit. He was just trying to have Alyosha be the harbinger of a reformed and populist faith kek. Zosima even says that the state should become the church

[Anonymous No.20332100]

>>20328484
This but unironically

[Anonymous No.20332147]

A warning against the consequences of nihilism in its demonic-radical (everything is permitted) and bureaucratic-liberal (everyone is suffering from aberration!) forms. Rehabilitation of the Russian epitomized by the dual aspect Mitya of tremendous fury and stupidity but also of moral integrity and grace. Exhortation of peasant women to wake up and save the world, and for the church to go out into the world epitomized in Alyosha kissing the ground and saving the souls of Kolya and the gang. General denunciation of pride in the figures of Smerdyakov and Katerina. Any of those and I probably missed some

[Anonymous No.20332160]

>>20328477
Am I faggot if I fell in love with Alyosha and have been searching for a man like him since I read the book?

[Anonymous No.20332230]

>>20329421
>Dosto makes no distinction between Catholic and Orthodox churches
t. hasn't read The Idiot

[Anonymous No.20332343]

>>20332160
is that fkn making fiends

[Anonymous No.20332344]

>>20332160
>>20332343
wtf it got a nickelodeon show

[Anonymous No.20332350]

>>20329371
mid

[Anonymous No.20332379]

>>20331601
Zosima is arguably the most important character in the novel and is the closest thing Alyosha ever had to a father. How could the story of the evolution of his faith be filler?
As for the kids, it's a window into the innocence of children (remember "Rebellion"?) and how it becomes corrupted. Kolya acting like an enlightened fedora-tipper should be annoying, but it's just sad. Same with him tormenting Zhutchka even though he knew he had no reason to other than wanting to feel like an edgelord. His reconciliation with Ilya (an actual good kid) is a nice smaller-scale example of redemption.

Don't know how you can consider that filler and not shit like the infamous courtroom scene or the various pages of women acting hysterical.

[Anonymous No.20332403]

>>20331601
>>20332379
Zosima's brother's outlook on life when he's dying is the thing that stuck with me the most from this book, it's extremely beautiful and feels like there is a deep truth to it

[Anonymous No.20332682]

>>20331108
what is a christ-like love? being a cuck? I agree that sacrifice for your in-group is good, but sacrifice for out-groups (including your enemies) is obviously le bad.

[Anonymous No.20332821]

that russians are mentally ill
too much forced mongol inbreeding

[Anonymous No.20332835]

>>20332682
personal sacrifice for someone of an outgroup is fine, i would say sacrificing your entire in-group for the out group is a whole other story

[Anonymous No.20332885]

>>20329421
For Orthodox Christians there is no "spirituality" without the Church. Wasn't Dostoevsky a spiritual son of one of the monks at Optina monastery? An institution that is obedient to a bishop that is a leader in the Church. For Orthodox the Church is indeed the "font of spirituality" (or at least Baptism, which is initiation into the Church). I say this as an Orthodox Christian.

[Anonymous No.20333545]

>>20329029
>The second half
>implying there wouldn't be a third novel featuring Alyosha's return to chirst

[Anonymous No.20333581]

>>20328779

[Anonymous No.20333585]

>>20329347
Stop skipping portions in his books.

[Anonymous No.20333591]

>>20329371
Not sure Orwell should be classified as a socialist.

[Anonymous No.20333597]

>>20329760
When, where, and how?

[Anonymous No.20333715]

>>20333597

For one, it was commonly assumed knowledge for the faithful in Russia that Roman Catholicism was a heretical Church - it is anathematised in the Sunday of Orthodoxy on the liturgical calendar. Everyone Orthodox that actually pays even the slightest attention to their faith knows that it's completely different to Roman Catholicism - and even if you want to chose to interpret this idea atheistically, you have to understand that it is a matter of nationalistic pride that Russian Orthodoxy is not the same thing as Polish Catholicism.

For two, he became a writer precisely because he had an experience of God after nearly getting shot for being part of a revolutionary group, and he based Elder Zosima on the impressions he got from personal visits to the Optina Monastery, which is the monastic spiritual capital of Russia. He was a pious man who understood the purpose of the Church - no-one would be naive enough to think that all bishops are holy ascetics, since there are no shortage of corrupt ones, but there is zero chance he saw , if he knew even the slightest bit of Orthodox ecclesiology, which makes it clear that the Church is the incarnated mystical body of Christ in time, through holy communion.

For three, read his goddamn letters and just ctrl+f "atheism" and "catholicism" https://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/Letters-of-Fyodor-Michailovitch-Dostoevsky-to-his-Family-and-Friends.pdf

Attached is a screencap of some of the letters.

It is simply impossible to read Dostoyevsky as a socialist, or anti-Orthodox, when literally everything about his life is about his repentance from socialism and going deeper into the spiritual life.

Alyosha was supposed to become the Anti-Christ in future editions - and it is not possible to write a story about the Anti-Christ without it actually being a confessionally Orthodox story. If he were to kill the Tsar, this would be in his job as Anti-Christ - and what did the Communists do? Kill the Tsar. This would've been one of the most obvious foreshadowings that Communism is Anti-Christ, which all confessing Russian Orthodox Catacomb Christians recognised.

[Anonymous No.20333733]

>>20332885

Monasteries are obedient to an abbot, who may incidentally be a bishop - monasteries in general are supposed to be independant of the main Church bureaucracy, except insofar as ordinations for priests to serve in the monastery are necessary. The Abbot his the highest authority in a monastery - and it's a recent innovation to assume that visiting Bishops have higher authority within the monastery walls.

St John Cassian writes: "It is the advice of the Fathers, an
advice always in season, that a monk should at all hazards flee the society of bishops and women; for neither women nor bishops permit a monk to remain at peace in his cell, nor fix his eyes on pure and heavenly doctrine.”

[Anonymous No.20333740]

>>20333715

*but there is zero chance he saw the Orthodox Church as a purely superfluous and corrupt worldly institution