/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.20326098]

Reminder that the last time we got a Sansa chapter in an ASOIAF book was in 2005, the same year Hurricane Katrina hit Louisiana, YouTube was created and Michael Jackson was still alive.

[Anonymous No.20326387]

That's longer than she's been alive for.

[Anonymous No.20326536]

>>20326098

Kind of looking forward to seeing Little Finger eventually gets dethroned by Sansa and what stupid mistake he does but I get the feeling she will somehow wind up with Aegon.

[Anonymous No.20326543]

>>20326536
Anon books 6 and 7 are never coming out. Not in a million years.

[Anonymous No.20326816]

>>20326098
>and Michael Jackson was still alive.
do you think he was a reader?

[Anonymous No.20326943]

>>20326816
song of ice and fire is why michael killed himself

[Anonymous No.20326966]

>>20326098
>of course the character i'm most excited to read in the winds of winter is sansa, how could you tell?

[Anonymous No.20327035]

>>20326098
Someone that started the series when it came out and they were 12 is now 36. Statistically they would likely have a child at least 12 years old.
He has taken more than a generation to write this and still probably won’t finish.

[Anonymous No.20327062]

>>20327035
Thomas Harris’ ‘Black Sunday’ was published in 1975.
Harris’ ‘Red Dragon’ was published in 1981, and was the novel that introduced Hannibal Lecter.
Harris seems to have written all of 6 books between 1975 and 2019.

Why are people complaining about RR Martin again?

[Anonymous No.20327159]

>>20327062
Because he’s going to die before finishing it. No one cared about Harris because he’s basically expanding things that stand on their own at random.

[Anonymous No.20327239]

>>20326966
The character I'm most interested in is Cersei. I'm really excited for her trial-by-champion.

>>20327062
Because those were standalone novels, not a continuous series.

[Anonymous No.20327356]

>>20326543
I'm on the fence. One half of my mind says that he can finish 6 but we'll never see the final book. The other half says he's basically writing both at the same time and he'll never be able to finish either because of that.

Either way, I have more empathy for prostitutes. Giant wheezing fat man and you're just praying to god he just fucking finishes already.

[Anonymous No.20327455]

>>20327356
>One half of my mind says that he can finish 6 but we'll never see the final book. The other half says he's basically writing both at the same time and he'll never be able to finish either because of that
i think both are true, sort of
hes trying to finish 6, but can't do it until he has a fairly concrete idea about how to reach the ending
so in a way hes also forced to write 7 at the same time

or, you know
hes been bullshitting everyone for 10 years and has actually never written anything past 5 and the sample chapters...

[Anonymous No.20327507]

>>20327356
>>20327455
Even if he wanted to finish the series I don't think he can in just two books.

[Anonymous No.20327533]

>ned stark was 35?
>stannis 35
>Rob 15, with a beard
What the fuck are these ages? I'm on the 2nd book and like it, but why would George write everyone so young? He does know everyone who accomplished things in history wasn't a zoomer right? I'm 32 and Ned barely older than me and acts like he's a 60 year old boomer.

[Anonymous No.20327544]

>>20327533
The books were originally going to have a time-skip where they would shift from kids to adults, but GRRM couldn't pull it off. Also Ghengis Khan and Alexander the Great were 20 and 19 respectively when they became kings.

[Anonymous No.20327546]

>>20327507
this, why can't he just do it in 3 and not worry as much? not like anyone's going to complain about it

[Anonymous No.20327552]

>>20327546
>why can't he just do it in 3 and not worry as much?
Because he is old and obese and could die any minute now.

[Anonymous No.20327573]

>>20327552
if he had just decided to do it years ago we would've already gotten wow
of course it's probably too late now, but it's not like this issue is new to him in the first place.

[Z No.20327577]

>>20327533
>Alexander
>Augustus
>Napoleon
>Henry V
>all under the age of 30 when their careers started
Society didn’t castrate young men back in the medieval era.

[Anonymous No.20327585]

>>20327577
It's the plastic we drink from. It's kills your testosterone.

[Anonymous No.20327592]

>>20327507
who tf knows.
we really have no clue how his ending is reached, exactly

in the show, the wall fell because muh zombie dragon
in the books, dragons can't fly north of the wall
so we don't know how the wall falls, if at all
doesn't sam still have a horn from beyond the wall?

in the show, we had a night king who had to die to end the long night
no such thing in the books, so we don't know what the victory condition is for the long night

we know "hold the door" is a thing from the books
but which fucking door? no way GRRM has a fucking door in that cave

in the show, dany had her khal BBQ and got her dothraki
no idea what's gonna happen in the books, but a BBQ is not completely out of the question
and you have victarion with a dragon horn in the battle of fire
we also have no fucking clue how but presumably that solves the mereenese knot and gets her out of there

you have book euron doing whatever in the apocryphal dark magical fuck he is doing

you have fAegon who presumably takes care of cercei, and who will presumably get BBQ'ed in kings landing by dany a la the show ending
but ofc all of this assumes dany is in westeros in the first place
oh, and weren't we promised a second dance of the dragons at some point?

and what about the chick with the red mask?
what about the measters killing dragons?
what about summerhall?

tldr we don't know shit. sam could blow the horn tomorrow and the wall falls in the first chapter of TWOW

[Anonymous No.20327637]

>>20327592
>sam could blow the horn tomorrow and the wall falls in the first chapter of TWOW

In my opinion the series should have gone like this:

>Three books about the Westeros civil war.
>Two books about Danareys and her Unsullied invading Westeros.
>One book about the Wall falling and zombies killing half the continent.
>One book about the heroes setting aside their differences to fight the White Walkers.
The End

[Anonymous No.20327669]

>>20327637
>Two books about Danareys and her Unsullied invading Westeros
naaaaaaaaaaaaah
if dany makes it to westeros with dragons, dorthraki, and unsullied, she will roll over everything and everyone easily

the show had to really try to create stakes
tyrion was retardified, euron was teleporting everywhere, they had effective scorpions which in the books are not effective against grown dragons etc
oh, and she had Jamie, which she doesn't in the books
imo its 99% sure that none of that shit is happening in the books

plus in the books cercei will probably be taken out by fAegon, and dany will find him in KL
and lets not forget that fAegons original plan was to marry Dany, so he won't be going around executing her handmaiden or anything else retarded either...

dany burning KL is probably happening, but we don't know how or why
the long night is pretty guaranteed to end, but we again have no clue how that's happening
bran is also supposed to end up as king, but fuck me that seems the most improbable of all. maybe he wargs undead Jon and climbs the throne that way, but that means no more real Jon, which also seems very improbable...

oh, and what about fucking Arya? there's some juicy conspiracy shit with the house of black and white, but presumably arya also ends up in westeros again

we really have no fucking clue how we get to the end points the show gave us

[Anonymous No.20327746]

>>20327544
>>20327577
Alexander was 20 when he took the throne. Rob is 15 with a beard. I'm well aware of young people in history but it was the exception not the rule. Also Ned is treated like an aged patriarch with so much experience as if he's more wise than the far older characters around him.

[Anonymous No.20327849]

>>20327746
>Rob is 15 with a beard.
He's also immature, quick to anger, and he ultimately fails as a king.

[Anonymous No.20327890]

>>20327746
Ned had been in wars to help his friend take the iron throne, a five time father and lord of Winterfell.
And in the end he was still outmaneuvered by Tywin Lannister who quickly pushed him out of the hand position and was going to make him take the black until Joff fucked up.

[Anonymous No.20328000]

>>20327890
>>20327849
No doubt the Starks are greek tragic characters and wouldn't see a bad omen if it was Death from himself warning them. I guess it's more about how they are perceived. It's true though, all their opponents highlight and outmaneuver these very things I'm complaining about. I suppose it's just the fact that we are reading the story through the minds of young people and some of it just is too mature for their age, even in historical context. It's just an odd choice.

[Anonymous No.20328033]

>>20328000
a greek tragic character would begin by commiting hubris, which the starks didn't
the lannisters did
and you could argue that dany did too
but not the starks

[Anonymous No.20328074]

>>20328033
But they are Greek. Ned is tragically brought down through his heroic traits. His honesty, duty, and morality. His 'honor.' Same for Rob in many ways.

[Anonymous No.20328094]

>>20328074
greek tragedy has a specific (thematic) structure: hubris, nemesis, catharsis
ned stark commited no hubris
he was humble, fair and honorable throughout
he got nemesis'ed out the ass through no fault of his own
and no catharsis at all, im afraid

[Anonymous No.20328118]

>>20328074
samefag as >>20328094
if you wanna see a good example of a greek style tragic character, look at jaime lannister
he fucked his sister and was lording it over everyone because of his superior fighting skills (hubris)
so he got captured, humiliated, and later lost his sword hand (nemesis)
and he became a better person afterwards (catharsis)

[Anonymous No.20328119]

>>20328094
I don't know about all that. Ned Stark had plenty of pride. He was awful when talking to others and inconsiderate. He had no political or diplomatic maneuvering. Also I consider a tragic hero to be what Aristotle describes as a tragic hero. I think we are thinking of two different classifications. What i'm talking is same for Leto in Dune. I'm also not a minority in this opinion. Since I've heard about ASOIAF, Ned has been labeled a tragic hero.

[Anonymous No.20328148]

>>20328119
im pretty confident what im describing is exactly the aristotelian definition
a noble(fundamentally good) character
who commits a hubris (prideful or sinful act)
suffers the revenge of the gods, the nemesis
and achieves cleansing, catharsis

another example is Odysseus in the Odyssey
hes a fundamentally good guy
he blinds the cyclops in self defense
but then as he is escaping, he makes fun of him, which is a hubris
poseidon then proceeds to fuck his shit up, which is the nemesis
and Oddyseus learns some humility from it, which is the catharsis

ned stark commited no hubris (at least, none that i can recall)
and no, being a tad rude to a servant or something doesn't count

catelyn commited hubris in her treatment of jon snow
rob could be argued to have commited hubris too, in violating his promise to walder frey by marrying jeyne (but then again, not marrying her after fucking her would also be hubris...)

[Anonymous No.20328206]

>>20327577
>Alexander
>Augustus
>Napoleon
>Henry V
>>all under the age of 30 when their careers started
>Society didn’t castrate young men back in the medieval era.
Alexander and Henry V were both Royal heirs who inherited when their fathers died, which explains why they could start their careers young.
Augustus was likely Caesar's bottom, and also came from a very influential family, so his command was partially position, partially nepotism, with the remainder skill and intelligence.
Napoleon came from a well placed aristocratic family, and his marriage to Josephine may have been the key to his success.( I suspect she was much more important than is usually known)

[Anonymous No.20328257]

>>20328148
fair enough, i'll have to read up more on the archetype. Thanks for the input.

[Anonymous No.20328261]

>>20326098
It will never finish

[Anonymous No.20328312]

>>20327356
>Either way, I have more empathy for prostitutes. Giant wheezing fat man and you're just praying to god he just fucking finishes already.

[Anonymous No.20328631]

>>20326098
We got Alayne(Sansa) sample chapters for Winds you headass. We haven't had a samwell chapter in forever though.

[Anonymous No.20328672]

I don't get why people say that the winds of winter isn't coming out
Do you know how fucking stupid you sound saying that?
Fuck you man
It's coming out

[Anonymous No.20328689]

>>20327546
symbolisms anon. Seven gods, seven kingdoms, seven swords of the Kingsguard. I've doubt you've read anything

[Anonymous No.20328696]

>>20328672
Its really dependent on george not dying with like the next 5 years but assuming he doesn't, I think it will come out.

[Anonymous No.20328706]

>>20327592
Im soooo excited fellow /lit/izens.

[Anonymous No.20328716]

>>20328094
you can call his "honor" hubris, right?

[Anonymous No.20328814]

>>20328672
i agree that the winds of winter is likely to eventually release
but a dream of spring will never lunch

[Anonymous No.20328819]

If Ned had allied with Renly to capture Joeffrey, wouldn't Renly have just killed Ned just like the Joeffrey? I mean Ned would immediately sperg about Stannis and the bastards.

[Anonymous No.20328950]

>>20328631
>in an ASOIAF book
A sample isn't a book.

[Anonymous No.20329010]

>>20327746
>Also Ned is treated like an aged patriarch with so much experience as if he's more wise than the far older characters around him.
Says who? The grand reveal of book 1 is that Ned Stark is a fucking idiot who got everything wrong.

[Anonymous No.20329012]

>>20328689
holy kek

[Anonymous No.20329015]

>>20326966
>Personally I'm most excited to find out what happens to Brienne, but you seem to have excellent taste as well, my friend.

[Anonymous No.20329034]

>>20327533
>fictional man who saw his whole family die, had to fight a war at 20, then had to govern a region and parent 6 kids acts more mature than childless american milennials who smoke weed and watch rick and morty on saturday mornings
wow so unrealistic, wtf was grrm thinking

[Anonymous No.20329074]

>>20327533
>why would George write everyone so young?
Tywin is way older. So are Mace Tyrell, Doran Martell, Illyrio Mopatis, Varys, Wyman Manderly, Roose Bolton, Balon Greyjoy, Jeor Mormont and Mance Rayder. To say nothing of the likes of Olenna Tyrell, Walder Frey, Mors Umber, Hoster Tully or Maester Aemon.

>He does know everyone who accomplished things in history wasn't a zoomer right
The only thing that the zoomers managed to accomplish so far is a bunch of shitstorms. Baratheon brothers were all retards who have killed their house and squandered their kingdom, Dany successfully turned the Slaver Bay into Balkans, Jaimie has sent all of his father's cunning plans down the cunt of his sister, to say nothing of his prideful antics before getting handled by the Bloody Mummers, and it's a huge plot point and thematic element that Robb and Jofferey are both AWFUL kings - their lines seen from the POV of Catelyn and Tyrion run in parallel to illustrate them both as such, just in the opposite ways - Joffrey is a spineless little narcissist of a bitch, while Robb is all unbending MUH HONOUR, and both of them bring their realms nothing but ruin. John is not exactly a great commander, getting himself stabbed for the Apples watch. Cersei and Tyrion require no commentary, however much fun Ramsay had skinning people, his position is disastrous, and even Littlefinger seems to have succumbed to his passions, rather than hold to reason.

Regarding young characters in general, you might've noticed that their age can be an important part of their characterization. Young summer children are prone to rash decisions, overestimating themselves and generally making blunders for the sake of their fiery convictions or emotions. Doubly so if they are highborn. Triply so if they are of royal blood. Their blunders serve to give us eventful plots to read about, and rain consequences on their head, forcing them to row up - sometimes not in ways that are not entirely healthy, but then again power doing nasty things to people who wield it is one of the central themes of the whole series. While the older characters are much more careful and cunning - and also traumatized by their past and frequently haunted by their ghosts.


Contrast with Davos Seaworth - GRRM certainly knows how to write a mostly reasonable adult guy when it suits the character.

>I'm 32 and Ned barely older than me and acts like he's a 60 year old boomer.
It's literally a plot point that he had to grow up way too fast, what's with his elders getting Aerys'd and Robert's Rebellion, his sister dying in his hands, and ending up the Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North. And still, this sudden development did not go all that well - he got through the Rebellion on the strength of his sword arm and his honor, but the first time he had do something more than swing a sword and swear oaths, he ended up causing the most spectacular blunder in the series so far.

[Anonymous No.20329091]

>>20329074
Based effort post.

[Anonymous No.20329108]

>>20328814
>i agree that the winds of winter is likely to eventually release
>but a dream of spring will never lunch

This sounds like the most likely outcome to me.
Second most likely is that he dies before any more books in the series get published, and they get finished by someone else, with the sample chapters stitched in there.
The series will never be finished by GRRM himself though.

[Anonymous No.20329128]

>>20328033
>a greek tragic character would begin by commiting hubris, which the starks didn't
What is Catelyn
>Ned goes south because essentially, she thinks she can play the game as well as everyone when she's the least experienced player at the table by far.
>the war starts because it's definitely 100% the Imp that tried to murder Bran in his sickbed
>Robb becomes a king because she really really really wants someone to save the Riverlands and her girls, but doesn't know what exactly to do about it beyond emulating the Stark muhhonour
>literally the same with releasing Jaimie
>the Frey betrothal happens because she wants her little baby boy to succeed and to be useful for him
>the Baratheon brothers come at each other because she fancies herself a great wide mediator and then absolutely fails to mediate, playing the wise arbiter which only serves to drive the two sides fucking pissed
>The Red Wedding happens because she really wants to see her little boy as a king in truth instead of whopping his teenage horny little ass and sending Westerlings to the Wall
>John's entire bastard angst originates in Catelyn being horrible to him
>Oh and Bran ends up broken largely because she can't discipline him for shit
Every shovelful of shit we see piled on the Starks can eventually be traced to Catelyn being a Cersei in denial. While Robb is Joffrey's mirror, Catelyn is that for Cersei. They are both young women, married into positions of pewer with men they don't love, trying (and utterly failing) to be good caring mothers and great players at the Game of Thrones, all while thinking themselves to be much tougher shit than they really are. At first we see Catelyn as striving for goodness in general, and later at least for the goodness of her house and relatives - because we basically only ever see her from her own POV, and that is filled with doubts, careful musing and better intentions, while Cersei seems to act purely on her bitch whims. But later when we get Cersei chapters, we learn that she's exactly the same beaten scared roe, consumed by doubts and fears and acting on those for the supposed better of her blood, remembering about such thing as consequences only in hindsight - while their actions are both the same brand of rash pride, bitter resentment and paranoia.

>she's not a Stark, she's a Tully
Oh fuck off.

[Anonymous No.20329144]

>>20328819
>If Ned had allied with Renly to capture Joeffrey, wouldn't Renly have just killed Ned just like the Joeffrey
Renly would be too much of a bitch to do it. He would threaten Ned with war unless he backs his claim, and should Ned back Stannis or fuck off back to the North (which would be decided by Catelyn, because Ned is a pussywhipped nigga in everything that concerns politics), he would then wish him farewell until they see each other on the field of battle, expecting to crush the Northmen in LE GLORIOUS DECISIVE BATTELLE.

Which of course ends with Renly dying to the shadow of Melisandre's cunt, and then Ned would just take the place of Cortnay Penrose - stubbornly trying to do something he sees as honorable against the wishes of Stannis, and ending up Melisandre'd just as well.

[Anonymous No.20329156]

>>20328148
Ned commits hubris when he thinks he can play the game of thrones without staining his honor.

[Anonymous No.20329170]

>>20329128
Summarising all of that as hubris isn't fair at all. The tragedy is that when she's in a position to make decisions they turn out poorly, but when she isn't in a position to make decisions and has very good advice to give she gets completely ignored and shit goes even more poorly. I'm going to reply to every single one because I'm bored and procrastinating.
>Ned goes south because essentially, she thinks she can play the game as well as everyone when she's the least experienced player at the table by far.
Not hubris at all. She's mainly worried about the implications of refusing the offer.
>the war starts because it's definitely 100% the Imp that tried to murder Bran in his sickbed
Too trusting of an old friend. Not hubris.
>Robb becomes a king because she really really really wants someone to save the Riverlands and her girls, but doesn't know what exactly to do about it beyond emulating the Stark muhhonour
She tries to stop that and mediate a deal with Lannisters at this point. Which was an excellent idea that got ignored.
>literally the same with releasing Jaimie
Stupid, but this was half-insanity from desperation and despair, not hubris.
>the Frey betrothal happens because she wants her little baby boy to succeed and to be useful for him
Literally the only option available to cross the river which needed to be done. Old man Frey knew exactly how good his position was to extract very favourable terms.
>the Baratheon brothers come at each other because she fancies herself a great wide mediator and then absolutely fails to mediate, playing the wise arbiter which only serves to drive the two sides fucking pissed
She is literally just a spectator to this. Obviously anyone trying to mediate would fail.
>The Red Wedding happens because she really wants to see her little boy as a king in truth instead of whopping his teenage horny little ass and sending Westerlings to the Wall
At this point she has zero power or say in anything.
>John's entire bastard angst originates in Catelyn being horrible to him
She's pretty much entirely in the right on this one. Having a male bastard the same age as your heir raised as nobility is dangerous as fuck. Readers only think this is a massive character flaw because they can only see it through the lens of archetypal YA protagonist Jon.
>Oh and Bran ends up broken largely because she can't discipline him for shit
Ned's fault for enabling.

[Anonymous No.20329195]

>>20326098
A Game of Thrones [1996]
A Clash of Kiings [1998]
A Storm of Swords [2000]
A Feast for Crows [2005]
A Dance with Dragons [2011]
The Winds of Winters [2022+]
A Dream of Spring [2030+]

It's as if the longer he takes, the worse his books become. It all started going downhill with A Feast with Crows.

[Anonymous No.20329339]

>>20329170
>Not hubris at all. She's mainly worried about the implications of refusing the offer.
She soothes her worry by belief that Ned can be a good Hand, just from the fact that he's good friends with Robert and loved by his northmen. She takes a shitton of pride in him and his capabilities, when it suits her.

>Too trusting of an old friend. Not hubris.
She doesn't trust Lysa one bit the moment Lysa's notions deviate from her own. She believes the letter because that's what she wants to believe, that the people she doesn't like have already acting against her, that the Lannisters have made the first move of this game by murdering Jon Arryn, so she must make her own move in kind. Which is bullshit - Pycelle murdered him on his own. As soon as Lysa starts disagreeing with Catelyn, the latter dismisses her as useless without even trying much.

>She tries to stop that
No she doesn't. She could've prevent Robb's coronation or at least secured herself a place as a Queen Regent over Robb. She didn't though.

>Literally the only option available to cross the river which needed to be done. Old man Frey knew exactly how good his position was to extract very favourable terms.
She had another option. Make Robb turn back north and leave Riverlands to burn. But we can't have that now, do we, her sweet darling little boy is a KING now, and she's too loyal to her retard of a brother and corpse of a father, who are both way too proud to evacuate Riverrun. That's literally a Joffrey situation, with the only differences being whole two years of age.

>She is literally just a spectator to this.
She has the entire North as her bargaining tool. That's more than Petyr had when he went off to the Bitterbridge to negotiate a Tyrell alliance that saved King's Landing.
>Obviously anyone trying to mediate would fail.
Baelish would succeed. Varys would succeed. Tyrion or Tywin would succeed. Cercei would succeed. Fucking Samwell Tarly would succeed. Stannis and Renly are two stubborn dumbass stags incapable of seeing reason. So of course Catelyn tried to sway them with reason, the one thing they are absolutely blind to. While fellow with half a brain could see that Renly and Stannis are both EASY AS SHIT to manipulate - they do spend the entirety of the plot easily manipulated by others, Stannis by Melisandre, Renly by the Tyrells. Anyone who knows how to do that could cater to their pride, principles and desires in order to forge at least a temporary alliance of convenience.

[Anonymous No.20329369]

>>20329170
>At this point she has zero power or say in anything.
She is the King's mother. Other mothers know they can have a say in the things their children are doing - either by driving them into submission (like Cersei), or by carefully guiding them away from mistakes (like Olenna). The only action of such sort that Catelyn does is nudge Robb towards giving command of his foot to... Roose Bolton. 500 IQ move here. Then she goes "oh he's a king, he can't rule from under my skirt", just until she gets the notion to free Jaimie. Then she can interfere once more.

>Readers only think this is a massive character flaw because they can only see it through the lens of archetypal YA protagonist Jon.
It is a character flaw, as she fails to be a loving mother - to Jon and the rest of her children. If she deigned to be a protective mother instead of a loving one, she would prevent Bran's climbing even if it would hurt her, raised Sansa to be less of a summer child, made Arya respect the court more, and had Jon packed off to the Wall way before the maester gave her that suggestion. Instead she tries to be loving AND protective, and fails at both, gaining neither love nor respect of her children. And for the record - we have a shitton of Catelyn chapters as well as Jon ones, and they illustrate exactly what they do - Jon was hurt by her treatment, and her hearth had a crack from it, while she ONLY thought about that from the point of self-interest and wounded pride.

>Ned's fault for enabling.
Ned is a shit father and we know that - he didn't have much of a positive example for himself - Rickard was a deadbeat. And Catelyn failed to fill in for him - Bran has two parents, not one.

The summary here is that Catelyn has a lot of curveballs thrown her way - same as everyone who plays the game of thrones. But she never deigned to learn the rules while say, Littleprick did learn, at the same court as her, and when she still come up to bat, she worries and muses a lot, but ultimately acts from pride, fear or resentment, not reason - same as Cersei. She loves what she has and fears to lose it and she wants more, she's trying to play other people, and she sees the responsibility of her position - but she's never willing to actually sacrifice what she has in order to get more of what she wants, she never empathizes or tries to understand people she's trying to influence so she fails at that, and she only muses about responsibility, but never accepts any of it - so instead of playing well, she loses all of her pieces.

[Anonymous No.20329399]

>>20329339
You're just straight up misremembering things here. Don't blame you since it's been a decade+ since fatass shat out a new one, but anyway:
>She had another option. Make Robb turn back north and leave Riverlands to burn. But we can't have that now, do we, her sweet darling little boy is a KING now
This was well before the Kingindanorf bit. Ned is still alive at this point, and they have no bargaining power to secure his freedom if they turn back. Plus if he does turn back he loses respect from all his lords which he can't afford - this is explicitly stated.
>No she doesn't.
There's a big scene where everyone has their say and hers is basically "we should just make a bargain and go home" but then all the other retards start going with the king idea and she can't do anything about it.
>Anyone who knows how to do that could cater to their pride, principles and desires in order to forge at least a temporary alliance of convenience.
She does get a temporary alliance of convenience, then the shadowbaby asspull happens.
>She is the King's mother.
She's under house arrest for freeing Jaime at this stage and all her advice gets ignored. Again, I think you're not remembering the timeline very well. There's also is a scene around this point in the book where she wants Robb to give up the crown entirely and make peace with the Lannisters.
Anyway I can't be fucked arguing about parenting so I'll just leave it there, fun chat.

[Anonymous No.20329446]

>>20329399
>This was well before the Kingindanorf bit.
Correct. Replace "he's da king" with "he's da lord" and it's still the same thing.

>Ned is still alive at this point, and they have no bargaining power to secure his freedom if they turn back
They don't gain it from fighting either, unless they manage to secure a hostage - which Catelyn herself points out, and they do manage to take Imp... and then she fucks it all up. Then they manage to take Jaimie, but by then it's too late.

> Plus if he does turn back he loses respect from all his lords which he can't afford - this is explicitly stated.
Which marks the entire war as exactly that - Robb trying to gain some prestige and respect of his bannermen, because he has absolutely no other leverage. He can be defied and betrayed easily, and he can't rectify that. It's a folly and Catelyn realizes that it's a folly, but doesn't take any actual steps to end this folly, and instead makes it only worse.

>There's a big scene where everyone has their say and hers is basically "we should just make a bargain and go home" but then all the other retards start going with the king idea and she can't do anything about it.
Exactly, She haven't done anything about it, except expressing her opinion.

>She does get a temporary alliance of convenience, then the shadowbaby asspull happens.
Nope, now it's you misremembering things. Stannis promises Renly that he dies on the morrow, and the shadowbaby kills Renly as he's suiting up for a battle against Stannis.

[Anonymous No.20329447]

>>20329399
>She's under house arrest for freeing Jaime at this stage and all her advice gets ignored.
That's exactly the thing - she gives advice when the action would take sacrifices from her, but when she sees that her own beliefs or interests are at stake, she never shies from action.

[Anonymous No.20329467]

>>20327507
>>20327546
Two books of 1500 pages each would be enough to end any story, regardless of how complex it is.
He wants to write 7 books in total because the number 7 is meaningful in Westeros.

[Anonymous No.20329469]

>>20327035
>Statistically they would likely have a child at least 12 years old.
>at 36.
Friend, I'm 36 and most of my peers don't have children. A few have a pregnant gf right now, or toddlers at the very oldest.

[Anonymous No.20329500]

>>20329128
>with men they don't love
It's said clearly and repeatedly that Catelyn did love Ned though.

Her occasional stupidity seems forced so the plot can happen. It makes zero sense to immediately assume that Tyrion really used a very recognizable dagger of valiryan steel to kill Bran. A non-retarded guy would've simply told his assassin to use a few drops of poison. Bobody would've thought of murder, they'd just assumed Bran died of his injuries. Using a dagger to cut his throat was retarded, and using such a RECOGNIZABLE dagger was 10x more retarded. Catelyn should've understood this.

[Anonymous No.20329505]

>>20329144
>dying to the shadow of Melisandre's cunt
thatsmyfetish.png

[Anonymous No.20329512]

>>20329170
>literally the same with releasing Jaimie
>Stupid, but this was half-insanity from desperation and despair, not hubris.
Either forced stupidity so the plot can happen, or Quaithe really did hypnotize her with some moon sorcery to push her to free Jaime.

[Anonymous No.20329519]

>>20329170
>Having a male bastard the same age as your heir raised as nobility is dangerous as fuck.
As shown clearly by the case of Ramsay (Jon's distorted reflection, like Robb is Joffrey's), who kills all legitimate Bolton heirs until he's the last one standing.

[Anonymous No.20329526]

>>20329500
>It's said clearly and repeatedly that Catelyn did love Ned though.
CATELYN says clearly and repeatedly that she loves Ned, to herself. After he's dead and she realizes that she has nobody to count on anymore. She probably believes that too. Cersei believes that she loves Jaimie, Baelish - that he loves Catelyn. Even Stannis believes that he loves his wife. In every case, that's people's perception of themselves, which is not always correct.

While Ned is still alive, Catelyn:
>gnaws his nerves with the issue of Jon
>pushes him to go south with Robert
>captures Tyrion and takes him to the Vale
All of this, with zero regard for him. She grew to accept Ned, but only realized that she needed him once he was was gone. Prior to that, she was a dutiful but unloving wife in a political marriage.

[Anonymous No.20329531]

>>20329512
>Either forced stupidity so the plot can happen
Forced when compared to all the times when Catelyn was NOT doing rash and disastrous things out of her own half-baked convictions, such as...

[Anonymous No.20329539]

>>20329519
Right and it doesn't even have to be as malicious as that. Say there's some troubled times and Robb happens to die by whatever means - not far out of the realm of possibility for the setting at all when winters last 5 years and cull half the population. Then you've got a second son that's a bit of a softie and a third who's still way too young and two daughters. But then there's this bastard who's old, experienced and familiar with the workings of ruling, and the lords simply decide that he's the right man for the job and even when things get better it's easier to just keep him around as the new lord. And just like that your bloodline is over. It's not an irrational fear at all, this is just one of those things that readers tend to see through a much more contemporary lens.

[Anonymous No.20329552]

>>20329539
That's if Jon is an outsider, period. Ned did not agree with this approach, and saw fit to have him raised along his trueborn children. If Catelyn could not accept him as a part of her family, she should've found a way to get rid of him. Otherwise, she had to accept him as one of her own, for Ned's sake and the harmony of her family if not for herself. Instead she does the worst thing - nurtures resentment and does nothing. She can't forgive Ned, because she thinks that she was dutiful enough by accepting Ned as a substitute for Brandon, and sees Jon only as a reminder of him supposedly not being dutiful to her. It's all just centers on herself, instead of considering others.

[Anonymous No.20329669]

>>20329128
>What is Catelyn

see >>20328148
>catelyn commited hubris in her treatment of jon snow

but ned didn't :)

[Anonymous No.20329886]

>>20328094
Ned Stark committs hubris from his arrogance. He's 100 percent a tragic hero and you are wrong. Ask anyone who studies this series. Hubris is not just pride, but ignorance.

[Anonymous No.20330917]

>>20329195
It’s because the first three he was world building, the last two he realized he didn’t know what to do with all these characters.

[Anonymous No.20331209]

>>20326966
>of course the scene I'm most looking forward to is victarion and dany's wedding, how could you tell?

[Anonymous No.20331211]

>>20329195
Feast for Crows quality is as good as the rest of the series. The only reason why it's worse is because there start to be too many povs and he had to divide them up in an arbitrary way due to space constraints. You can tell the structure isn't as tight.

[Anonymous No.20331244]

>>20326098
Best book in the series. Don't (you) me in disagreement.

[Anonymous No.20331252]

>>20331244

[Anonymous No.20331300]

>>20328950
I know but its weird to dial in on Sansa when there are other POVs that we haven't heard from in far longer than Sansa.

[Anonymous No.20331318]

>>20331209
giga based. Victarion is /Ourguy/.

[Anonymous No.20331325]

>>20331318
victarion is an insecure fag, eurons puppet
the only positive thing i can say about him is that unlike the other brother, aeron, euron is controlling him with his hand up his arse, instead of his cock.

[Anonymous No.20331330]

>>20331211
Feast was easily the worst because it introduced a bunch of boring retards. The worst was the dorne storyline that introduced the dumb sand thots and the Dork Star. All those wasted words just for that incel dorne prince to get roasted by a dragon. Masterful plan dorne gimp.

[Anonymous No.20331349]

>>20331330
i liked quentyn

[Anonymous No.20331353]

>>20331325
Nah he's onto Euron's tricks and that Red Priest his is with warned him of Eurons manipulation. And yes he is based, fights with heavy armor in naval combat, has a flaming hand, killed his whore wife, and will bang Dany, and you will seethe.

[Anonymous No.20331354]

>>20331325
stfu faggot victarion an his waifu will liberate the iron isles and wreck euron's faggot ass

[Anonymous No.20331368]

>>20331330
feast was kino
-cercei's imprisonment and the whole sparrow storyline
-brienne's travels
-arya in braavos
-ironborn kino

mind you, i preferred Dance, but still, AFFC is awesome

[Anonymous No.20331373]

>>20331368
>-brienne's travels
>-arya in braavos

[Anonymous No.20331375]

>>20331353
Yes, how can he lose when he has the red god on his side? The only religion with real power, directly opposed to the others. He believes in it whole heartedly with all the dumb power of his ironborn berserker brain. He's unstoppable.

[Anonymous No.20331403]

>>20331373
sorry, anon, but you got filtered, *hard*
briennes travels, i can understand not getting that
but fuck me the faceless men are kino in the books
and through them we get braavos politics and iron bank politics
not to mention some really nice implications about the fall of valyria :)

[Anonymous No.20331422]

>>20331403
Don't care at all about the (((iron bank))) or their glowie hitmen.

[Anonymous No.20331499]

>>20331368
>-cercei's imprisonment and the whole sparrow storyline
Good.
>-brienne's travels
Good.
>-arya in braavos
Braavos is good and Arya is good, however they two don't mix well. We should've had some other POV to showcase Braavos to us, like Davos or Samwell.
>ironborn kino
Victarion is kino, the rest of their stuff sucks.

[Anonymous No.20331580]

>>20331375
Nothing but truth, he made his sacrifices to both the red god and the drowned gods so he has them both on his side.
He’s strong but not overly cruel (at least compared to his brother) and has the dragon horn.
If he was smarter he would have teamed up with Asha and thrown Euron into the sea and sailed to get some of Dany’s sweet dragon puss for himself.

[Anonymous No.20331656]

>>20327746
you're really hung up on a 15 year old having a beard. That's not that crazy.

[Anonymous No.20331675]

>>20327746
I had a mustache when I was twelve. You just exposed yourself as a testlet.

[Anonymous No.20331689]

>>20331330
Filter'd

[Anonymous No.20331694]

>>20326098
>caring about normie lit

[Anonymous No.20331778]

>>20331694
normies don't read books that are thousands of pages long.

[Anonymous No.20331852]

>>20331499
AFFC is shallow, but nobody had high expectations for it.
ADWD was hyped as fuck because it had all the favorite characters and it took six years, and yet felt like a 1000+ pages long blueball. So in many aspect it's a bigger failure than book 4

[Anonymous No.20331877]

>>20326536
>not rooting for Littlefinger to out maneuver everyone and become the most powerful man in Westeros
NGMI

[Anonymous No.20332526]

>>20331403
What implications about Valyria?

[Anonymous No.20332587]

>>20331778
Are you really trying to claim that the Game of Throne books from the tv show are NOT normie material?

[Anonymous No.20332825]

>>20332526
that the FM are responsible for the Doom
specifically by wasting many/enough of the mages/wizards/whatever that were keeping the volcanoes in check
see preston jacobs for details and book sources

[Anonymous No.20332827]

>>20332825
Oh, I've seen that theory. It's pretty retarded

[Anonymous No.20332845]

>>20332827
why?

the FM were canonically started by slaves in valyrian mines
they were obviously not fans of valyria
they were obviously killing the valyrians who had enslaved them
what else would kino assassins with a major axe to grind do?

the last step of being directly responsible for it is ofc not a certain
the doom is either a natural phenomenon, in which case no one is at fault (pun intended :D)
or it was the result of too many mages/wizards/whatever that were keeping the volcanoes in check biting the dust
if the latter, it was either the result of excessive infighting among valyrians, or due to FM activity
personally, i think the FM being responsible is the most kino possibility.

[Anonymous No.20332906]

>>20332845
That's retarded because it makes magic way too powerful and cartoonish. One of the best things in the series is that magic is subtle (for the most part) and has lots of limitations. The moment you introduce the idea that there's wizards who can control volcanos you lost me. It's as retarded as that legend that the Children summoned a giant from the sea to break the bridge from Westeros to Essos with a hammer.

[Anonymous No.20332959]

>>20332587
The majority of normies that watched game of thrones did not read all the books.

[Anonymous No.20332971]

>>20332906
I mean its pretty obvious if you read the books that magic is at a low point within the asoiaf timeline, valyria was when magic was at its height of effectiveness, so yeah the idea that wizards were magically controlling volcanoes through blood magic is not that far fetched, if thats too high fantasy for you that a recommend not reading winds whenever it comes out because magic is only going to get stronger and stronger.

[Anonymous No.20333200]

>>20332959
The show is normie as hell, but the books have sold well and ADWD hit number one on the NYT best sellers list, as did that book with the Targaryen history.
It ain’t Harry Potter but for anyone who reads more than one book a year it’s super normie.

[Anonymous No.20333205]

>>20331675
You just exposed yourself as a spic.

[Anonymous No.20333867]

>>20333205
Kek you are right. Now comb my chest hair and fondle deez nuts bitch.

[Anonymous No.20333985]

>>20331877
>not rooting for Littlefinger to out maneuver everyone and become the most powerful man in Westeros
I would if he did not turn out to be mindbroken for Tully cunny. Literally a nerd who never ever got over his high school crush.

[Anonymous No.20333997]

I read a few books back in the day, how's little finger doing? He was my favourite character.

[Anonymous No.20333998]

>>20327746
I had a beard when I was 15
No moustache but a thick neckbeard.

[Anonymous No.20334005]

>>20333985
And you just know he's never gonna get any of it. When GRRM writes a cuck they stay cucked eternally and chad always wins.

[Anonymous No.20334008]

>>20327746
>Also Ned is treated like an aged patriarch with so much experience as if he's more wise than the far older characters around him.
This doesn't happen at all.

[Anonymous No.20334018]

>>20332825
>>20332845
The theory is retarded because if Valyrian mages "kept the volcanoes in check", then the volcanoes of Valyria being capable of going full Doom would be common knowledge among the Dragonlords, and they would make contingencies in case exactly that happens (like moving the fuck away to the colonies), and would take divinations and prophetic dreams seriously, them being you know MAGES WHO ARE DOING MAGIC themselves.

Instead Aenar Targaryen is literally the only dragonlord in all of the Freehold who gives any sort of weight to his daughter's prophecy, and the Doom brought down every single Dragonlord house save the Targs. That's not something that would happen if Valyrians knew they were sitting on a fucking hydrogen bomb.

>the FM were canonically started by slaves in valyrian mines
>they were obviously not fans of valyria
>they were obviously killing the valyrians who had enslaved them
>what else would kino assassins with a major axe to grind do?
The Iron Bank paid Valyrians for every ship they took when the uprising happened. Braavosi relations with Valyria was based on Valyrians please kindly fucking off and leaving Braavosi be, not some sort of a radiant vengeance. The whole point of the Faceless Men is that you give up your hopes, dreams and grudges when you become one.

[Anonymous No.20334064]

*scratches the inner surface of his fat folds*
*sharts his pants*
*sits down to write a 3000 word blogpost about american football*

[Anonymous No.20334682]

>>20334064
if the fat fuck dies before completing ASOIAF, i will never fucking forgive him.

[Anonymous No.20334751]

M U M M E R ' S F A R C E
U
M
M
E
R
'
S

F A R C E

[Anonymous No.20335364]

>>20331877
Ahem
*pitchpipe plays G note*
JEWWWWWWWWWW

[Anonymous No.20335612]

>>20335364
>hail Lord Anon, of House Based!

[Anonymous No.20335705]

>>20333985
that is based though, taking over the world and banging your highschool crushes daughter just because you got cucked by chad is dangerously based and makes him worth rooting for.

[Anonymous No.20335796]

>>20334005
George sounds based.

[Anonymous No.20335882]

>>20328689
Generally true for the great generations versus the corpulent and worthless Boomers.

[Anonymous No.20335888]

>>20326943
This anon knows

[Anonymous No.20336776]

>>20331330
Imagine being this wrong

[Anonymous No.20336786]

>>20326098
>hurricane katrina was 17 years ago
holy fuck i feel so old hearing that

[Anonymous No.20336811]

>>20327746
i went to middle school with a dude who could grow a full beard as a 12 year old, a 15 year old with facial hair isn't exactly science fiction