/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.20253068]

What the fuck there are actual people who take guenon seriously
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJyOxkT3APA
A bunch of French hicks convert to fucking islam after reading Guenon. I thought he was just a meme on /lit/

[Anonymous No.20253272]

>>20253068
https://olavodecarvalho-org.translate.goog/category/artigos/page/2/?_x_tr_sl=pt&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pt-BR&_x_tr_pto=wapp

[Anonymous No.20253291]

>>20253068
Good find. Inspirational. Praise be unto him

[Anonymous No.20253296]

Our boy G did it again

[Anonymous No.20253434]

>>20253291
I'm still shocked people in rural France know about him and read his works. It kinda changes my perception of rural people.

[Anonymous No.20253576]

>>20253068
Never doubt /lit/ again!

[Anonymous No.20254257]

>>20253434
I forget which book but I remember reading a passage about how Victorian Englishmen were really well read, regardless of class.

[Anonymous No.20254326]

>>20254257
makes sense. books in general used to be more dominant

[Anonymous No.20254349]

>>20253068
>What the fuck there are actual people who take guenon seriously
It's pretty shocking how dumb people can be.

[Anonymous No.20254368]

>>20253068
Watched the whole thing. They had a very weak catholic education, they felt disappointed how they couldn't believe some doctrines. There are some apparent contradictions too (about their personal lives). And they said they were "true christians" and "true believers" while they doubted the central point of Christ as God's incarnation, which Guénon and the other Traditionalists didn't deny anywhere.

I do not trust a complete honesty in this. Feels like some need for embelishing the 'reversion'. A coping for people disenchanted with christianity.

[Anonymous No.20254379]

>>20254257
So were Puritans. Memes about them being “uneducated” is a modern misconception.

[Anonymous No.20254386]

For example, the man says he couldn't believe some doctrines about christianity due to (probably) weak theological formation of priests in his area, but it happens that some shia provided some answers and he fully believes in the hidden imam who 'sustains the world' at this very moment. OK.

[Anonymous No.20254393]

>>20254386
What I got from the video is that these people weren't satisfied with exoteric practice. They kept repeating this

[Anonymous No.20254403]

>>20254393
Yeah, but the sacraments are not exactly exoteric practice. A true catholic would never dismiss them.

[Anonymous No.20254418]

>>20253434
Well, he wrote his stuff in French, so it's more likely for French people to read him, no?

[Anonymous No.20254421]

>>20254418
I've literally never heard of guenon until /lit/ started talking about him. I had an image of him as an obscure figure

[Anonymous No.20254446]

>>20254421
Guénon was not so obscure in the intellectual milieu at that time. I think someone posted a text saying about how his obituary was broadcasted in french radio.

At least some french catholics knew him personally like Maritain. Others knew his works like Jean Daniélou – I think his brother directly corresponded with Guénon.

[Anonymous No.20254480]

>>20254446
That changes my perspective quite a bit

[Anonymous No.20254691]

>>20254480
Carl Schmitt and Mircea Eliade both believed Guenon to be the most interesting man alive.

[Anonymous No.20254900]

This seems really retarded. How is it traditional to be French and convert to Islam? Shouldn't they have just gone to their local French church got French married and helped their French community?

[Anonymous No.20254902]

>>20254900
Anonymous 04/21/22(Thu)16:44:22 No.20254747▶>>20254752 >>20254790 >>20254810
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All three of my romance novels flopped Anonymous 04/21/22(Thu)08:22:09 No.20252862▶>>20252871 >>20252912 >>20252961 >>20253180 >>20253185 >>20253203 >>20253219 >>20254711 >>20254724 >>20254731 >>20254740 >>20254742
>friend is a romance author
>made $100,000 last year
>decide to become a romance author myself
>challenging and time consuming
>work 3 months straight
>my books totally flop.

I am currently trying to do a fourth but it is seeming very futile at this stage. How do I write romance in a way that middle aged normie women, and gays appreciate?
>>
Anonymous 04/21/22(Thu)08:23:51 No.20252871▶
>>20252862 (OP) (OP)
>How do I write romance in a way that middle aged normie women, and gays appreciate?
You have to pick one, it's impossible to appeal to both in significant numbers
>>
Anonymous 04/21/22(Thu)08:24:46 No.20252877▶
Write a book about a handsome gay man who gets seduced by an aged hagraven.
>>
Anonymous 04/21/22(Thu)08:31:06 No.20252899▶
What's your friend's name? I'm genuinely curious to read their work now kek.
>>
Anonymous 04/21/22(Thu)08:32:54 No.20252912▶
>>20252862 (OP) (OP)
Women love rape and someone to take care of them. Also pirates

Gay men are like men and they like physical things
>>
Anonymous 04/21/22(Thu)08:40:11 No.20252944▶
Just get the bestsellers, distill their formula and archetypes and just fill the rest for your books. Don't tell me you're actually trying to make up shit.
>>
Anonymous 04/21/22(Thu)08:43:42 No.20252961▶
>>20252862 (OP) (OP)
It's all about marketing and not how you write.
>>
Anonymous 04/21/22(Thu)09:45:18 No.20253180▶>>20253220 >>20254726
File: men vs womyn.png (2.67 MB, 1328x1254)
2.67 MB
>>20252862 (OP) (OP)
>How do I write romance in a way that middle aged normie women, and gays appreciate?
Write abusive smut. That's what holes like. Arrogant bullies who are also tall, muscular, rich, and for some reason obsessed with them even though they're mediocre females.
>>
Anonymous 04/21/22(Thu)09:46:40 No.20253185▶
>>20252862 (OP) (OP)
are you using a female pseudonym? if not, use it.
>>
Anonymous 04/21/22(Thu)09:51:26 No.20253203▶
>>20252862 (OP) (OP)
Maybe you're a shit writer.
>>
Anonymous 04/21/22(Thu)09:54:36 No.20253219▶
>>20252862 (OP) (OP)
Why did you post a picture of a convicted child molester. What kind of romances are you writing?
>>
Anonymous 04/21/22(Thu)09:55:15 No.20253220▶>>20253576
>>20253576
>>20253068
>>20253180
This.

[Anonymous No.20254952]

>>20253272
Now, my friend, if you intended to link "The Sphinx's Claws", I will have to remember you that I have already pointed out the irrelevance of Olavo's claims in this text for the works of Guénon. Will I have to do it again?

The works of Guénon are being translated in Portuguese by me. I started with "Le Roi Du Monde" (https://www.amazon.com.br/dp/B09RW733GT)) and "La Crise du Monde Moderne" (https://www.amazon.com.br/dp/B09SGBB589).).
These two books, however, were already translated before, and now I am prioritizing those works that were not translated to Portuguese before, such as Le Symbolisme de la Croix (https://www.amazon.com.br/dp/B09WRDZHP7))

Now I am translating "Introduction générale à l'étude des doctrines hindoues". Which is going to be published next month.

[Anonymous No.20255034]

>>20254900
I dont think they're trying to be traditional. If they were they wouldnt have left the catholic church to begin with.

[Anonymous No.20255041]

>>20254952
friend, I want to translate some religious works from non-Traditionalists that have copyrights from the 60s (61, 63 etc). Is it safe to translate them or they could still be under copyright? They are free on Archive.org, but sometimes they upload books under copyrights there.

From what I see copyrighted works before the 1976 law have a maximum of 56 years of protection. Is that it? (I don't know why Tolkien wouldn't be public domain...) What rule should I use to do things fairly? Should I stick to works published before 1927?

Sorry I do not want to demand too much, just looking for some guidance if possible.

[Anonymous No.20255105]

>>20255041
My friend, you have to know the year of the author's death. 70 years after his death, all of his works enter into the public domain. For example, I can translate and publish Guénon's works without any problems because he died in 1951 and so in 2021 all his works became public domain. This is the safest way to do it, since it is guaranteed that after 70 years it is in the public domain.
As for published before/after a certain year, it's better to consult this https://guides.library.cornell.edu/copyright/publicdomain.. I personally cannot speak about this before/after a certain year because I have based all of my translations on the 70 years after death law.

[Anonymous No.20255113]

>>20255105
Thank you!

[Anonymous No.20255120]

>>20255113
You're welcome, fren, good luck and godspeed.

[Anonymous No.20255176]

>>20254900
>french
France is a nation-state which is by its definition anti-traditional. There are no more any traditional states to be part of so our origin has become irrelevant, we don't have tribes either, we are all literally dalits.

[Anonymous No.20255195]

>>20254900
>>20255176
so your concept of what is "traditional" sounds more like conservatism, which is to conservate whatever is considered old by contemporary society, even if those things have been revolutionary at their time

[Anonymous No.20255232]

>>20253068
I posted this vid yesterday on /his/, did you just see it there?

>>20254368
>A coping for people disenchanted with christianity.
It actually rules in favor of Sunnis who call Shias Christians in denial: at some point one of those guys mentions the fact that the idea according to which the Prophet is now dead and that's it, and says that he couldn't bear it. As if they NEEDED the Imams/14 Infallibles' intercession.
I'm not Muslim, but to me the main interest in converting to Islam is to embrace the Tawhid and to reject any kind of intercession, in order to have a direct 'relationship' to God (even though Allah is kind of unknownable apart from its 99 Names and Attributes in Sunni Islam). Therefore some Shia doctrines such as the imamate would be problematic.

[Anonymous No.20255273]

I come from semi-rural France and I can confirm that these people are marginal. It is true that René Guénon had a certain influence in the post-war period when he was able to take advantage of the inertia of the symbolist, spiritualist, theosophical and supernaturalist currents in order to place himself as a renovator and to acquire a notoriety. He was published by Gallimard, which is the largest publishing house in France and which, even at that time, ensured a fairly good distribution. However, one should not imagine that the case of the video is representative of deep France, Guénon was never really read by anyone but intellectuals and avant-garde artists. The fathers of the videos were converted because of a whole psychological and social context that pushed them to read Guénon, but it is an atypical path. The truth is that these people found themselves in a secularized society, where modernity, positivism, Lamennais, the industrial revolution and Freemasonry had tried to confuse the very idea of Catholicism, and that these ideas had infiltrated the seminary, so that many Christians were no longer Christians except by habit and social convention. It was the time of the generalization of the mass in the vernacular, of communion in the hand, the church tried to open itself to the world with its ecumenical council and the priests influenced by the Sillon, liberalism, and badly formed in the seminary no longer had themselves a sense of the sacred, and it is from this time that the truly massive decline of Catholicism in France dates. For the people in this story, there was a sense of the need for faith, which is connatural to all men in truth, but the received image of Catholicism was so obviously unsatisfactory that they finally broke out of their inertia and came upon Guénon. It is clear that they are people without intellectual inclinations because they are satisfied with Shi'ism, which certainly does not provide answers as satisfactory as good Catholic theology or Sufi mystagogy.

[Anonymous No.20255321]

>>20255273
I appreciate your contribution good effort-poster.

[Anonymous No.20255334]

>>20255273
Good post

[Anonymous No.20255341]

>>20255321
>>20255334
I thought it was important to give some context because otherwise one might think that Guénon is read spontaneously by the middle and rural classes in France, whereas these are special cases and only in the last century.

[Anonymous No.20255368]

>>20255273
>the church tried to open itself to the world with its ecumenical council
I just recently read about the kind of ecumenism that was taking place in the Church in the 70s. It actually sounds worse than what is happening today; the Re-Imagining movement, charismatic revival "channeling", and techno-rave masses.

[Anonymous No.20255400]

>>20253068
You just post this guy because he looks funny.

[Anonymous No.20255407]

>>20255368
Yes, the 70's were worse from a dogmatic and liturgical point of view than today. The revolutionary and cosmopolitan spirit had affected the Church and many priests developed a very doubtful profession of faith, even downright heretical (non-presence of God in the altar, refusal of transubstantiation, universal redemption among others). The church thought that adding freedom to the liturgy would attract people, but experience has shown that the sense of the sacred takes precedence over the democratic character and the publication of the Paul VI missal has only destroyed the religious sense. It is all these abuses of the ecclesiastics to whom we owe the foundation by Lefebvre of the FSSPX and then later of the Ecclesia Dei institutes which specifically preserve the Tridentine liturgy.

[Anonymous No.20255424]

>>20254379
Puritans were likely one of the most well-read groups of people in human history, before radio and after heightened literacy books really ruled society.

[Anonymous No.20255563]

>>20253068
he was so handsome

[Anonymous No.20255575]

>>20255407
The reform was too optimistic and greatly inspired by fr. Romano Guardini, who I consider a saint. But not every priest is a Guardini and the implementation was not optimal. Of him is said:

>According to a former student of Guardini, Heinz Kuhn, many at his Masses particularly felt the presence of Christ in the liturgy. Kuhn, the editor ofThe Essential Guardini, wrote that in Masses celebrated by Father Guardini, worshippers were drawn into “a world where the sacred became convincingly and literally tangible.”

>With him on the altar, the sacred table became the center of the universe" and in Mass they found “courage to face, to endure and to resist a world in which the forces of evil, Satan and his demons, were running rampant.”

and:
>Father Guardini believed that, for the Christian, body and soul, nature and grace, are gathered together in every aspect of experience, and the highest act of the person is to worship God in the liturgy.

However Guardini himself disapproved the reform, or the result:
>This does not mean that Father Guardini approved of what followed the Council’s liturgical reform. Shannon said that Father Guardini was in fact “dissatisfied with the implementation of Vatican II.

>when Guardini was still alive, I had a priest from Munich visiting St. Gertrude, who wanted to study St. Gertrude, and I said to him—it was right after the Council—yes, I said to him: Do you know how Romano Guardini feels about the new liturgical texts? He says: Yes, I can tell you that. I meet him very often, and when he got the new texts, he looked at them for a long time... and then he said to me: “Plumber’s work”!

I recommend reading these:
https://www.ewtnireland.com/romano-guardini-beloved-theologian-two-popes-potential-saint/
https://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2020/08/plumbers-work-romano-guardini-and.html

[Anonymous No.20255587]

Guardini celebrated in vernacular and versus populum.

[Anonymous No.20255934]

>>20254952
>I will have to remember you that I have already pointed out the irrelevance of Olavo's claims in this text for the works of Guénon. Will I have to do it again?
what did you point out, nigger?

[Anonymous No.20255972]

>>20255934
>Olavo de Carvalho refuted him.
Wrong.

> René Guénon foresees three possible developments in the state of affairs in the West:18
> 1. The definitive fall into barbarism.
> 2. The restoration of the Catholic tradition, under the discreet guidance of Islamic spiritual teachers.
> 3. Total Islamization, whether through infiltration and propaganda, or through military occupation.
>These three options were, in essence, reduced to two: either the plunge into barbarism or subjection to Islam, whether discreet or ostensible.
This is a strawman, Guenon never wrote that any restoration of traditional esoterism in Christianity had to occur under a specifically Islamic guidance as opposed to other eastern traditions. Guenon was himself initiated into Taoism.

>The application of this (esoteric vs exoteric) distinction to all other traditions is merely suggestive or analogical – a figure of speech and not an appropriate descriptive concept. With that the entire edifice of “perennialism” begins to sway a little. Are there, for example, exoterism and esoterism in the Hindu tradition, precisely the one whose vocabulary René Guénon uses most frequently, as he believes that Hinduism has reached maximum clarity in the exposition of metaphysical doctrine? Evidently not. The distinction of castes is something quite different. First, because entry into the higher caste is not of free choice: the subject is born shudra, vaishia, kshatyia or brahmana and remains so forever. Second, because members of lower castes can accidentally reach the highest levels of spiritual attainment without changing caste. Third, because the rites of the superior caste, or brahmana, are not secret or discreet: any ze-mané can know them, he just is not authorized to practice them.
Olavo is wrong here, there is an esoteric aspect in Hinduism, as for example only ascetic monks are initiated into Advaita and fully instructed in non-dualism. Non-monks are not initiated into it, and are not taught how to realize and remain in non-duality. The Vedic rituals of the Brahmins are open, but the rites of initiation into asceticism and the related mantras etc that are taught are closed and not openly revealed. Furthermore, the traditional Vedantic position is that Shudras are supposed to be prohibited from studying the Vedas and are supposed to rely on the Smritis like the Gita, Puranas etc instead for spiritual knowledge. Instead of directly engaging with this fact, Olavo brings up a strawman about castes and tries to wrongly imply that caste alone was the reason Guenon thought there was an esotericism-equivalent in Hinduism.

[Anonymous No.20255975]

>>20255972
Cont. All from warosu archive, perhaps Portuguese anon is referring to to these posts

> It is also only as a figure of speech that the distinction of exoterism and esoterism – or of aggregation and initiation rites – can apply to Judaism, since the worshipers of Kabbalistic mysteries there are none other than the priests of the official cult.
Just because the exoteric authorities are also privy to esoteric instruction does not render those esoteric teachings no longer esoteric, this is a silly claim. Kabbalah remains esoteric in Judaism because its traditionally taught in a closed setting to males above a certain age like 40 or something. That the people who are teaching this are the teachers of exoteric teaching as well doesnt render the teaching of Kabbalah exoteric

[Anonymous No.20255987]

>>20255972
>This is a strawman, Guenon never wrote that any restoration of traditional esoterism in Christianity had to occur under a specifically Islamic guidance as opposed to other eastern traditions.
here's what Guenon wrote about it in the Conclusion section of Intro to Study of Hindu Doctrines
https://i.warosu.org/data/lit/img/0202/22/1650380289781.png
https://i.warosu.org/data/lit/img/0202/22/1650380355495.png
https://i.warosu.org/data/lit/img/0202/22/1650380420335.png
https://i.warosu.org/data/lit/img/0202/22/1650380485067.png
https://i.warosu.org/data/lit/img/0202/22/1650380549466.png
https://i.warosu.org/data/lit/img/0202/22/1650380614458.png
https://i.warosu.org/data/lit/img/0202/22/1650380679110.png
https://i.warosu.org/data/lit/img/0202/22/1650380807345.png

[Anonymous No.20256055]

>>20255987
>Guénons first book
>No mention of Islamisation political/modern
>Can't differentiate between what Guénon means by "present-day West" meaning the current degenerated "Western Tradition" in the sense of pseudo-metaphysics, which he is to treat in his directly following books Theosophy and Spiritist Fallacy,
>couple pages from first book, not a holitistic approach at all.
>In later books and writings Guénon looks further into Western Esoterism, however never is it called necessarily accesible, talks about a return to corrected Western tradition, that each people have their own tendencies etc. Evangelism, etc. Imposition of Islam, which is what "Islamisation" means is repeatedly spoken against.
>hurr durr Guénon is talking about Modern day "Islamisation" and stuff..
>while I agree that Guénon wanted Intellectual Exchange between West and East, perhaps one-sided, there was never any hint of Total exclusivism with respects to Islam, this sort of subordination of traditions to Islam is contrary to the whole Project
Ngmi. Total Shudra takes.

>>20255972
Also related from archive:

>guenon was a "muslim" lol
No.
>most accesible and practical for the period
>Schuon who essentialy continued this Sufistic approach, was disillusioned with Islamic exoterism
>"Islamisation" in this vulgar profane and generalised mass-approach, entails nothing more than Exoterism, Esoterism is not Specifically "Islamic" no ideas are new ideas, you cannot Islamise the esoteric core of a Tradition other than Islam itself, that would be anti-traditional, the whole point of different religions is existing is their difference.
>>/lit/thread/S20222071#p20245298
https://i.warosu.org/data/lit/img/0202/36/1650305946184.png

[Anonymous No.20256072]

>>20255987
I have obviously read this book no where do I see Islamisation mentioned, Guénon talked about transfers East and West between Eastern authorised representatives, etc. And a Western intellectual elite so to speak, Islam is not even Eastern in its proper sense, regardless no where did I detect this sort of profane "Islamisation' rhetoric other than perhaps in the anti-traditional Islamic subordinationists who go a bit too far taking this approach, the exchange is purely intellectual, if you think it has anything to do with modern-day migrations etc. Please get out of this thread hylic.

[Anonymous No.20256115]

>>20253068
One of the problems with unquestioningly adhering to dogmatism set forth by an elite, is one may not find the best path towards enlightenment for oneself. For Guenon, given his nature as more or less purely intellectual, the path of the Brahmin in its properly Traditional sense (i.e., attached to institutions with a clear chain for transmission of Wisdom) is most advantageous. However, given the nature of the Western spirit, often driven towards action and overcoming in a heroic sense, as well as the fact that we are in an age of dissolution where these institutions have either been totally subverted, destroyed, or receded underground, the path that unites contemplation and action is often advantageous for other types. Do not forget that the priest-king, king of the world, the highest attainment of initiation or spiritual knowledge/understanding/experience, re-unites the primordial union of red and white, in the state before it was split into to strands (a degeneration). We should also note that such a union was present in ancient Ireland and possibly among the Celts. In truly Western esoteric Traditions (pre-Christian) this union is held in high regard, and the means of realisation are not always clear, or often suggest the heroic path of action (for example, the ancient heroic myths across virtually all indo-European Traditions).

Whether or not the transmission is passed on through the priests or the warriors at this point seems less relevant when it comes to individual actualisation. This is why I think it is wrong (for certain "types", at least) to reject the path of action, as a priest historically would have over the last 1500 years or so in Europe.

So my point is, having studied Guenon and greatly appreciating his knowledge, do not reject action or going out and trying things out for yourself. Initiatic wisdom properly understood is experiential, you will not obtain it from reading books. Sure, you may be able to join some sufi sect/order that retains some esoteric influence, but you may also be limiting yourself, or solidifying your state. Or worse, you simply read about things, never experiencing them, and enforcing your false ego, or you join the freemasons (lol) which tend downards.

Of course the path of action is not without its own risks, which is why one must tie it to that of wisdom or contemplation. When this happens things start to fall into place, as you gradually become a center. To run from fear of this (the "satanic" will) often comes from a lack of confidence. You must remain pure, calm, strive for perfect equanimity, which naturally implies detachment, and allow divinity to come to you. This is how you can come to know the mysteries of the heart, the central fire, through experience, which in essence is the initiatic journey. Traditional organisations with authentic chains of experiential knowledge are found later. Esoteric knowledge is experiential, at the very least as far as man is concerned.

[Anonymous No.20256128]

return to barbarism is unironically the most superior path
>>20256055
>>20256072
let me do some digging and come back to you two later with actual quotes from Crisis/East&West/HinduDoctrines
>the exchange is purely intellectual, if you think it has anything to do with modern-day migrations
right but that was option 2. he states that if the intellectual exchange part fails then Islam could very well swallow up the West
on another note, there are quotes from Schuon and Lings talking about the same thing

[Anonymous No.20256148]

>>20256128
> he states that if the intellectual exchange part fails then Islam could very well swallow up the West
in either E&W or CotMW, he says that this would be the less preferable option relative to Western tradition being restored, due to the chance of Islamization generating social tensions up to possibly including armed conflict

[Anonymous No.20256165]

>>20256115
This is my effortpost on what could be called more of a path of action towards transcendent knowledge, as opposed to simply joining a lame eastern organisation after years of reading theories. I am speaking through experience to a large extent. It is my opinion that this is a more Western path, in the quest to unite the two powers once more within oneself. We see the path of action emphasised constantly in indo-European heroic myth, all over different continents, but especially Europe.

Arthur had Merlin (who often appears to be just another higher element of Arthur's intellect). Guenon and Evola affirm that this is a very ancient Tradition, quite possibly going back to the Hyperboreans. Or it could be Hermes, as in Hermes-Thoth, the divine purveyor of spiritual knowledge, of the priestly caste; hence we get the term Hermeticism, which teaches self-actualisation through alchemy. Interesting to note on this topic is that despite Hermes being of the priestly type, the ultimate symbol of the completion of the work is the Royal symbol of the crown, red or purple.

Too many people seem caught up on arguing abput exoteric constructs (also temporal) instead of experiential wisdom, which is perennial and true esotericism, and above such things. Many are just concretizing their ego but do not reach a center.

[Anonymous No.20256195]

>>20256128
How do you define barbarism?

>>20256148
The West has already been swallowed spiritually by an Eastern semitic deviation of spirituality. Insofar as Islam represents this, I do not care if there is a "shift" towards Islam. However what I do care about is the effect of yet another semitic deviation (this one even more plebian and universal in a negative sense) further swallowing Europe. To illustrate, the average muslim being imported to the West is a semi-literate uncivilised retard. These essences will only contribute to the dissolution of the West, as we see in every major European city. If you are a leftist and don't care about this, you are hardly ready for matters of a transcendent nature.

Independent of religion, the Western White man must once again become a powerful force in and of himself.

[Anonymous No.20256233]

>>20256195
> Independent of religion, the Western White man must once again become a powerful force in and of himself.
If any given society is not guided and deeply informed by a common religious worldview, then people divert their energies into acquiring material wealth and pursuing amusement/hedonism, and a society that becomes very wealthy while having an impoverished spiritual life soon becomes decadent and depraved, undermining it from within, setting itself up for later failure.

[Anonymous No.20256242]

>>20256072
Islam no matter its form already constitutes a deviation from the higher aristocratic nature of Europeans or white people. The tendency towards democracy and universalism is a semitic element which opens up a path to inferior forces (of "matter", the masses). We don't need any more of this. Of course Islam also has superior values as well, but these are usually overshadowed by the lower elements. If we are talking about pure spirituality or esotericism, some sufi orders may get it right, but I am also sure many do not. I really do not see the need for Islam to reinstate Tradition in the West. If anything Orthodox Christianity appears to be more than enough as a nucleus, not to mention other more ancient and purer/more powerful initiatic orders watching over the West, which you probably won't learn about from Guenon. The nobler elements of Islam should be allied with, and the inferior elements (hordes of inbred semitic-arab chimps being imported to destroy the West) should be impeded. In this way you create a core of highly competent and wise elites.

[Anonymous No.20256265]

>>20256233
>If any given society is not guided and deeply informed by a common religious worldview, then people divert their energies into acquiring material wealth and pursuing amusement/hedonism
Which has already happened, which is why I'm arguing for the reconstruction of a core, which can be worked towards in a decentralised manner. Thus one should purify himself spiritually, implying a detachment and disregard for those negative tendencies you have identified. This goes for all people, and yes religion will play a part to varying degrees, dependent on the individual.

If you are saying one religion must be adopted by the entire civilisation, I don't see how this pursuit could be anything but subversive at this point. Right now the perennial wisdom taught by multiple religions should be the starting point, and tge enlightened core elite of these groups can help to establish solidarity with other religious cores. This way we fight off the dissolutive elements while staying united (having greater spiritual strength/potency).

[Anonymous No.20256271]

>>20256148
right right
and what Olavo is arguing in his essay is that there is not esoteric dimension to Christianity so Guenon's attempts to esoterify it are a waste of time, making the whole Catholic-revival-under-secret-sufi-masters a pointless endeavor that will only result in an Islamic takeover of the West.

It should be noted that at the very end of the essay, he states
>Many Christians, Catholics or not, were so indignant at the teachings of René Guénon that they made several attempts to refute and even disparage him. These attempts only proved the opponent's intellectual superiority and fell into ridicule or oblivion.

>In this respect, Guénon's disciples were not entirely wrong in considering him insurmountable (the “infallible compass”, said Michel Valsân). But Guénon does not need to be fought or defeated. By adopting the pseudonym "Sphinx" in his early writings, he knew that those who did not decipher his message would be swallowed up and reduced to obedience. Those who kick between screams of revolt do not allow themselves to be obeyed, begrudgingly or even unconsciously. Once deciphered, however, the Sphinx has no choice but to gently release the prey, which will emerge from its clutches not only free, but strengthened. .

so anon... have you deciphered the SPHINX?
>>20256195
Well the standard definition according to the dictionary is 'absence of civilization'
What civilization do we have nowadays anyway?
Catholicism is finished too so propping it up is a waste of time and I don't want to become sandniggered either. So that leaves Barbarism as the only viable path.

Think Hitlerism, but with a Guenonian metaphysical foundation.
(Guenon also does believe that the 'European race' is a real thing.)

Traditional Barbarism baby. The true Germanic way.

[Death To NPCs No.20256313]

>>20256242
>not to mention other more ancient and purer/more powerful initiatic orders watching over the West,
Like?

[Anonymous No.20256319]

>>20256271
>Traditional Barbarism baby. The true Germanic way.
Incredibly based. You've convinced me.

[Death To NPCs No.20256321]

>>20256271
> By adopting the pseudonym "Sphinx" in his early writings, he knew that those who did not decipher his message would be swallowed up and reduced to obedience. Those who kick between screams of revolt do not allow themselves to be obeyed, begrudgingly or even unconsciously. Once deciphered, however, the Sphinx has no choice but to gently release the prey, which will emerge from its clutches not only free, but strengthened.
Kino. It was pretty obvious with the sort of scolding in Guénons early books.

[Anonymous No.20256325]

>>20256115
>>20256165
Anon what you wrote is powerful and it felt like it was specifically written for me.

I know of Guenon but I have never really read him, and at this point I'm not sure how necessary it is to read him.

My initial readings started with Bible/Philosophy...Esotercisim began with the GOspel of Thomas and Gnosticism, along with Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, (philosophy was maintained in parallel with Nietzsche/Kierkegaard mainly), also Jung, Gurdjieff and his disciples are also important (particularly Maurice Nicoll)...I have read much, some in depth, many things I've skimmed...Anyway there is a lot more to say here but at the end of the day it's not really relevant, since the point here is the "experiential"

I grew up in America and am currently living in France, although I've made some attempts to get into certain circles (half-hearted attempts admittedly), the overall sentiment for me is the French are just as much in a void as what is happening in America and most likely all around the world...

Anyway, I'm not sure what I'm trying to get at, nothing really, just sharing, but I am curious if you can speak more about your own experiences, particularly the 'experiential' aspect...Any further advice would be much appreciated...Thank you

[Death To NPCs No.20256331]

>>20255987
>>20256128

> By adopting the pseudonym "Sphinx" in his early writings, he knew that those who did not decipher his message would be swallowed up and reduced to obedience. Those who kick between screams of revolt do not allow themselves to be obeyed, begrudgingly or even unconsciously. Once deciphered, however, the Sphinx has no choice but to gently release the prey, which will emerge from its clutches not only free, but strengthened.

[Anonymous No.20256339]

>>20256321
Yes... Guenon is like Morpheus in the training scenes and we could not be more blessed to have him as a teacher.

[Anonymous No.20256346]

>>20256339
Peace Be Upon Him

[Anonymous No.20256355]

>>20256271
>(Guenon also does believe that the 'European race' is a real thing.)
Ya, but he has been proven slightly wrong in that, since we know the indo-Europeans were a race (in the spiritual and material sense). Barbarism is fine, but it should not fall to the lower natures, which may unfortunately be conduited through improper application of spirituality.

I agree with you on the condition that there is a spiritual (and thus physical) purification and rectification at the individual level. Imagine a bunch of strong White men, having surpassed the dangerous trials of modernity, essentially becoming neo-feudal aristocrats with influence and spiritual power, coalescing and forming a new/revitalized core. This is my aim, and I would encourage others to do so, in whatever way best suits their nature. Wisdom is definitely needed, which should go without saying.

[Anonymous No.20256361]

>>20256355
>becoming neo-feudal aristocrats with influence and spiritual power
>this is my aim, and I would encourage others to do so
based, we are on the same page
now the question is... how do we accelerate this timeline?

[Anonymous No.20256386]

>>20256331
So based

[Anonymous No.20256391]

>>20255563

[Anonymous No.20256440]

>>20254900
>muh French
Nationalism is as modern as it gets

[Anonymous No.20256461]

>>20256325
Thank you for saying so and am glad it spoke to you. I would say that Guenon is definitely worth reading, but not everything should be taken as a law. Apart from the theoretical knowledge, he can be extremely sobering when reading his writings on initiation, which can be a set back, good or bad.

As for my own experience, I have been studying and practicing the Western esoteric Tradition of Hermetic alchemy. The "royal art". I suppose I am somewhat self-taught, but I read/obey writings of those with more experience, and learn a lot through myth and symbolism, internalising and making them a living reality. I don't want to give too much away, nor say too much. You could think of the writings of Plotinus and others and how they relate to the laws of sympathy. Behaving in such a way that higher influences are "magnetized" to you, as you become more central. It is an occult law, lived by Kings and other leaders in ancient times. I'm not sure if you would like me to recommend sone sources, and I don't want to throw a bunch of stuff out there. Being constant is key, simply igoring or denying any fears and attachments to desire. Keep doing it and see where it leads you. Strength is crucial of course. I suppose I have burned away a lot of my ordinary personality through more violent methods, but not all of it yet. We must first die. The alchemists speak of putrefaction. What is the seed? The water? Gold and Mercury? Earth? The dragon or astral serpent that must be defeated, or the bull subdued by mithras, vegetation springing from its blood after being brought back to the cave and killed.

Your path was very different from my own. I like Gurdjieff although I haven't read him. Personally I have picked one thing (making sure it's good) and autistically stuck with it. Esoteric groups can be found later as far as I'm concerned. Otherwise you may pick unwisely and be locked in. Traditionalist circles in France and Italy are very interesting, but do they have the key to the primordial tradition? This is imo the sign of their legitimacy/value.

[Anonymous No.20256467]

>>20256361
I don't know about the timeline. As far as personal development is concerned, becoming a law unto oneself is very good while always keeping in mind superior values is very good.

[Anonymous No.20256473]

so what is the best book to start with if one wants to read Guenon?

(i can read French if that matters...)

[Anonymous No.20256481]

>>20256440
It isn't, the Trad aspect is esoteric. So Sufism could be trad, but just everyone converting to Islam is stupid, especially when we see so many inferior elements unfortunately plagueing the Islamic world. The West already has its own problems, we don't need to share Islam's. Wise Islamic leaders should fix these issues, we'll fix ours, then team up like in the final act of a Marvel movie and retake the Holy Land.

[Anonymous No.20256494]

>>20256473
you will get a bunch of different answers
but generally speaking the best intropills are Crisis of the Modern World or Introduction to the Study of Hindu Doctrines*

*the first 2/3ish of this book have little to do with hinduism and provides more of an overview of his Traditionalist thought

picrel is kinda solid and going down the left side of the chart is probably your best bet for starters. once you get to Reign of Quantity you can kinda go in whatever direction that interests you most.

[Anonymous No.20256495]

If all of this is an illusion and there's no one but Brahman (as per advaita) then what's the point of all of this?
All gurus run away from this question.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeio2MFThZg
Who even are we? Is this like a video game? Am I a shizo?

[Anonymous No.20256525]

>>20256473
If you just want a general understanding of Traditionalist dogma and key "philosophies" (a solid foundation is crucial), I found King of the World, Crisis of the Modern World, Spiritual Authority and Temporal Power, and Reign of Quantity very good. Especially the last, when it comes to understanding the modern world. Perspectives on Initiation is good, just watch out for masonry and unquestioningly following dogma in our very unusual times. As for praxis, go elsewhere. Evola's Intro to Magic is a very good start, and his work on Hermeticism, provides a thorough understanding of Hermetic alchemy, which is Royal Western initiation going back to ancient Egyptian priest-kings or possibly farther. Or if you like branch out into Eastern philosophies, if you like them more.

[Anonymous No.20256531]

>>20256494
Reign of Quantity is such a good book just on its own, everyone should read it.

[Anonymous No.20256548]

>>20256495
My answer: who cares? It doesn't matter. You will learn through experience, so go out and get that experience, because it can't be explained or rationalised. Or it would be a lowering of this knowledge to attempt it, so one can understand the mecessity for silence.

[Anonymous No.20256551]

>>20256531
ya it is
I kinda like Upton's System of the Antichrist too, as he styles it as a part 2 to Reign of Quantity

have you checked it out?

[Anonymous No.20256560]

>>20256495
>If all of this is an illusion and there's no one but Brahman (as per advaita) then what's the point of all of this?
The teleology of the universe is that it is directed towards beings coming to know God or the Absolute, things exist in the manner as they do for this purpose, that is why there are supernaturally revealed scriptures which teach us about Brahman

[Anonymous No.20256563]

Guenon is like Gad Elmaleh,
Big in France, completely unknown everywhere else except by hardcore nerds in their respective fields (esotericism and television/stand up comedy respectively)

[Anonymous No.20256574]

>>20256551
No. I listened to his interviews recently and have read his book on UFOs. I'll add that to my list, definitely worth reading more of for me right now.

[Anonymous No.20256595]

>>20256574
the book is kinda long, but 100-200 pages of it is dedicated to BTFOing new age movement after new age movement that can sort of be skimmed

nevertheless, Upton has a great ability in identifying and explaining the forces of counter-initiation in [Current Year]
good luck!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSQ_DS6nrzw

[Anonymous No.20256613]

>>20256461
Funny you mention Plotinus, I was on the verge of purchasing the Enneads yesterday (edited by Gerson) but have held off as I am re-reading some of Plato's dialogues (my first intro to philosophy actually, from which I retain cherished memories of a new world opening in my consciousness).

I have dabbled in alchemical writings through Jung (skimmed some Paracelsus and Boheme, when I say skimmed I mean in a pejorative/diletante way of course) -- it is highly seductive but also at the same time a turn-off -- I am talking about all the figurative/symbolic/metaphoric language specifically, without a proper guide it can be very dangerous and just lead you into a downward spiral, just my impression... This is why I was so attracted to the Yoga Sutras which were a no nonsense methodical approach to practice...When people mention Guenon's attraction to Hinduism retaining the most clear methods, I understand why...

>I have burned away a lot of my ordinary personality through more violent methods

This I am interested in. I have constantly tried but failed to maintain any sort of consistency in my life when it comes to killing ego and reigning in carnal desires.

Also I have no one around me to talk about these things or share experiences or learn from.

I have also been deeply effected by the "heroes of old" and was at one time very interested in Indo-European and Proto-Indo-European (although I grew up in America, I am originally from the Caucasus, I was born amongst the mountains and English is not my first language but it is by far my strongest language where I have had my intellectual upbringing).

>I'm not sure if you would like me to recommend sone sources
Please do, nothing extensive is necessary, just a few key elements based on your intuitive response to what I have written.

[Anonymous No.20256620]

>>20256494
>>20256525
Thank you

[Anonymous No.20256653]

>>20256548
My biggest fear is that this is all done out of boredom and like someone designing a very sophisticated video game, make himself forget the code and how he made it, and then trying to discover it for himself again and again in endless cycles.
I find this pointless and if this is enlightenment then I don't want to have it. Why are there 4 ages gold silver bronze and iron? Why is there all of these laws and symbols in the world? Why do we keep getting destroyed and created again? It's all in vain.
The only answer for me is that advaita is false (or not the full truth). If I was really Brahman and that's it! then I would be very disappointed in myself.

[Anonymous No.20256663]

>>20256560
But advaita says that I am already brahman and that I am already liberated and without suffering but (((maya))) is the only thing preventing me from realizing it.
I inflict maya on myself to have fun is that right?

[dago No.20256767]

whatever happened to that finnish schizo who always talked about 'Les sept têtes du dragon vert' and Yrjö Von Grönhagen's "Himmlerin Salaseura"

[Anonymous No.20256770]

>>20256663
> But advaita says that I am already brahman and that I am already liberated and without suffering but (((maya))) is the only thing preventing me from realizing it.
I’m not sure why you included the triple parentheses, Advaita/maya has little to do with exoteric Judaism and in fact it comes straight from the Indo-Aryan scripture of the Vedas+Upanishads. Yes, it is true that your real identity is the Atman-Brahman and that this Atman-Brahman which is you is forever liberated and unaffected by maya. The teleology of the universe is not directing the Atman-Brahman to the realization of God (itself), it’s instead directing the minds of living beings to this realization, the mind isn’t the Self (Atman), and so when the mind is liberated, no change occurs in the Self before, during and after this because the Self is forever liberated.
>I inflict maya on myself to have fun is that right
No, maya is only inflected on the non-Self which is not you, the Brahman-Atman is totally unaffected by maya. If you believe that your Self is affected by maya, it’s because you don’t fully grasp the difference between the Self and non-Self and are instinctively identifying the Self with the mind/intellect.

[Anonymous No.20256821]

>>20256494
How about this as an intro?

[dago No.20256859]

>>20256821
go for it, I started with that book and it helped a lot
once you dive into the actual intro books, many of the concepts laid out in the Essential Rene Guenon will begin to click

his wikipedia is solid too

[dago No.20256885]

are any of you fags here CTMUpilled?
I have been reading/watching a lot of Langan lately and cannot help but feel that he is Guenon 2.0

oh and he is certainly Vedantapilled

[dago No.20256969]

>>20256551
Upton does a great job in explaining Guenonian thought and has a fantastic understanding of the NWO.

oh and he's based because he's an Infowars chad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCponm17qQQ

[Anonymous No.20256976]

>>20253068
Is it just me, or does anyone else think this frog looks like Adam Driver?

[Anonymous No.20257006]

>>20255232
>at some point one of those guys mentions the fact that the idea according to which the Prophet is now dead and that's it, and says that he couldn't bear it
I’ve read this part 20 times and I still have no idea what this is trying to say. What the fuck. English?

[Anonymous No.20257035]

>>20254379
>Memes about them being “uneducated” is a modern misconception
Since when has this been a meme? I thought everyone knew they had ~95-100% literacy.

[Anonymous No.20257045]

>>20256440
*converting to a foreign religion because you read some meme book is as modern as it gets

[Anonymous No.20257142]

>>20256767
Curious about this aswell. He disappeared, maybe he reached hyperborea.

[dago No.20257345]

>>20257142
monke man probably got to him (hit ordered by Dugin)

[Anonymous No.20257571]

>>20256767
He was based. Not enough schizo Guénon talk on /lit/ nowadays.

[Anonymous No.20257596]

>>20256767
His posts were interesting but sometimes he would act like a female and throw an angry tantrum if most of the thread was talking about eastern metaphysics. It’s like he thought the whole point of Traditionalism was to reconstruct some counter-initiation subplot/backstory and people who talked about other aspects were betraying the mission, it was kinda gay

[Anonymous No.20257613]

>>20255195 NTA
that is the exact opposite of what he said

[Anonymous No.20257626]

>>20257006
>at some point one of those guys mentions: the idea according to which "the Prophet is now dead and that's it" -- and says that "he couldn't bear it"
hope this helps

[dago No.20257649]

>>20257596
that's what's great about guenonchads of /lit/
there are many different sects
some are vedantafags like guenonfag
some are initiation/sufifags
some are critique-of-western-civilizationfags (like yours truly)
and then you got the king of the world schizofags like the finngolian

united in autism

[Anonymous No.20257680]

>>20256969
Kino vid. Ended up watching all 3

[Anonymous No.20257683]

>>20257649
Praise Le Sphinx !

[Anonymous No.20257735]

>>20254952
Stop it, dude. Portuguese speakers that dont also speak english are dumb nigger cattle. I fear the people reading him wrong and doing some fucked up shit

[dago No.20257766]

>>20257683
So what is the Guénonian Sphinx riddle?

Here’s my interpretation from the Olavo essay
The Egyptian Sphinx is a benevolent creature
Guénon teaches you the doctrine of Tradition - and more specifically how to root one’s worldview in metaphysics with God at the absolute center.
If you can solve this on your own and attain spiritual realization, you come out stronger. If not, Guenon will devour you (you either get filtered and stay a seething hylic or become a Sufi pawn of his and submit to Islam)

[Anonymous No.20257853]

>>20256195
Fuck europe and fuck white people. You are so idiot trying to make whites the protagonists of the world while all the bunch of shitskins have spiritual traditions far more advanced than you. You are really inferior and dont notice it. Islam swalling you up would be a gift for you jewish materialistic paws

[Anonymous No.20257858]

>>20257853
seething!!!!!!!!!!!

[Anonymous No.20257907]

>>20257858
How does it feel knowing that while white people lives a life devoid of tradition for 1000 years now there are brown subhumans wearing loincloth are escaping samsara and getting eternal union with god? Racism and nationalism are one of the evidences you are an ignorant hylic

[Anonymous No.20257925]

>>20257907
i'd be mad too if I were you

[Anonymous No.20257935]

>>20257925
I am so envious that you can consume the corrent thing, dude, you have no idea

[Anonymous No.20257939]

>>20257935
dinner break is over sanjeet
get back to the call center

[Anonymous No.20257973]

>>20257035
This is mostly an American thing but
>Religious=Illiterate
has been the meme hammered into schoolchildren's heads since the end of the Forties.

[Anonymous No.20257988]

>>20253068
Although I enjoy Guenon, Evola, etc. it ultimately has to be recognized that ‘perennialism’ is its own religion with its own exclusivist claims which are incompatible with most world religions, and by no means are Buddhism, Islam, Taoism etc., separate paths to the same peak.

[Anonymous No.20258019]

>>20257988
>it ultimately has to be recognized that ‘perennialism’ is its own religion
Why? I dont see how that follows

[Anonymous No.20258191]

>>20257988
can you elaborate a bit more anon?

>by no means...separate paths to the same peak.
Specifically this part...

[Anonymous No.20258442]

>>20253068
Truly amazing. Thanks for posting that vid. My life followed a similar path to some of them

[Anonymous No.20258703]

>>20257735
Macaco burro, imbecil e soberbo.

[Anonymous No.20258773]

This is a fucking jew if I ever saw one.
debonked

[Anonymous No.20258779]

>>20255232
Shia Islam is way closer to Catholicism than Sunni Islam so it's no wonder they became Shia. Shia Muslims are just obsessed with the idea of material intercession to the point of self-flagellating themselves when they think about their imams

[Anonymous No.20258832]

>>20258773
this

[Anonymous No.20258836]

>>20253068
It's either mystical stuff or science which is boring and there is no point to studying outside of technology/medicine besides pleasure.

[Anonymous No.20258922]

Evolians with their emphasis on race, politics, 'indo european' myths, 'aryan' people (debunked by Coomaraswamy), pre-christian europe etc have infiltrated any talk about Guénon and the others with their materialistic and prideful takes. It is a shame because of what could have been if that wasn't the case.

As long as an influx from /pol/ users continues and no age restriction is enforced any talk about Traditionalists is bound to fail. See this one here pretending he knows more about hidden initiations than Guénon:
>>20256242
>not to mention other more ancient and purer/more powerful initiatic orders watching over the West,

notice earlier in the post the:
>higher aristocratic nature
>white people

It is all tiresome.

[Anonymous No.20258935]

>>20258922
what did guenon mean by this?

>It is nonetheless true that the European people possess enough features in common for it to be possible to distinguish them quite easily from all other peoples; this unity, even though acquired rather than primal, is enough to allow on to speak, as we are doing, of a European race -- only this race is naturally less fixed and less stable than a pure one.

[Anonymous No.20258955]

If I were to start dicussions around the Traditionalists I would require the following:

1) Reading of Guénon, AKC, Schuon, Titus Burckhardt;
2) People aged 28 and older only;
3) Complete renunciation of any evolian value (race, politics etc);
4) Utmost despise for personal opinions.

>>20258935
he meant what he said. Only someone very spiritually immature would focus on a race talk... What is even your point?

[dago No.20258978]

>>20258922
>>20258955
why are you seething? Guenon endorsed Evola's works and had ZERO problem with his emphasis on race, politics, 'indo european' myths, 'aryan' people, pre-christian europe etc
his concern regarding Evola was that he felt the latter was overly philosophical

stay mad darkie

[Anonymous No.20258989]

>>20258978
>Guenon endorsed Evola's works and had ZERO problem with his emphasis on race, politics, 'indo european' myths, 'aryan' people, pre-christian europe etc
>his concern regarding Evola was that he felt the latter was overly philosophical

You are wrong. Go back to your tripcode adventures on /pol/ (I have searched the archives just to make sure). You are the one who put Nietzsche and Evola on the same chart as Guénon.

[dago No.20258994]

>>20258989
>You are wrong.
no no, you should go back and read the letters between Evola and Guenon

seems like you got filtered by Evola, what don't you understand?

[Anonymous No.20258998]

>>20258994
How old are you if I may ask?

[dago No.20259002]

>>20258998
older than 28

so do you want to discuss guenon or do you want to keep complaining about Evola because you aren't a westerner?

[Anonymous No.20259056]

>>20259002
>older than 28
No way.

I do want to discuss Guénon and the others but WITHOUT evolians subverting the topics to contingent and materialistic matters. If you are in accord with Traditionalist principles you will simply acknowledge the decline is inevitable and any political attempt to solve it would be anti-traditional. Even if such thing as "white race" became whatever racists want it to be it would not revert the decline deeply imbued in every aspect of modern life (loss of vocational society, loss of sacrality etc). And for what is the 'white race' worth fighting for on its own? The same white race was the quickest to degenerate and bring disorder to the east (see British occupation of India, Opium Wars etc). You are simply idealistic about a "hero age" because it sounds neat and edgy, instead of loving the Truth itself.

You and any other evolian have a subversive and rebellious soul. You do not understand the principle that in the hierarchy of being WISDOM comes first than ACTION: if you act without wisdom based on what are you acting?

It would be better if you didn't know how to write and read. These subjects are not for the man of the will, the man of the action.

[Anonymous No.20259090]

>>20259002
To continue:

What the 'West' needs is not an ideological movement based on racial unity or politics. What people need in is LESS action, NOT MORE. It is action that turned the wheel of progress and accelerated the decline. The western (and eastern too) need RECOLLECTION: to seek the path of his own individual salvation before wanting to change the world. Anything else is ephemeral and pure noise, shadow, fog, attachment to pride and vanity.

If everyone does his part, seeks recollection, his salvation there would be no need to "save the west".

>“Martha, Martha,” the Lord answered, “you are worried and upset about many things, 42 but few things are needed—or indeed only one. Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her.”

[dago No.20259096]

>>20259056
>>20259090
>hurr durr

[Anonymous No.20259106]

>>20259096
Such is the line of thinking of the guy who thinks Nietzsche and Guénon era compatible.

[dago No.20259128]

>>20259106
imagine thinking you can understand Evola without having a background in Guenon and Nietzsche

you're either a pseud who got filtered or a pajeet/sandnigger who has a massive inferiority complex towards Whitoids
which is it?

[Anonymous No.20259146]

>>20259128
I am 'white', but I know it would be silly of me to take pride in something that is purely contingent and without merit. Do you want a cookie for being born white too?

I simply reject Evola altogether as the anti-traditional he was, I see no need to 'understand' him etc.

Post real age.

[Anonymous No.20259156]

>>20258922
>>20258955
>>20259056

What about Evola's Hermetic Tradition and/or Intro to Magic books? Those don't have any of the political side effects no?

[Anonymous No.20259163]

>>20259156
As Ananda Coomaraswamy often quoted Plato's phrase: why go for the lesser philosophers?

[dago No.20259173]

>>20259146
>I am 'white'
damn... well consider my posts above to be b8
wanted to see how you would respond t b h

on your comment of
>The same white race was the quickest to degenerate and bring disorder to the east
whites have been bringing disorder to the world since time immemorial
stop feeling so guilty over it and embrace it

[Anonymous No.20259186]

>>20259163
So which books explain those two topics better in a practical, i.e. praxis, way? (the two being: Hermeticism & Magic)

[Anonymous No.20259187]

I've been watching this thread
Reading it's posts, arguments and links to related documents
Honestly after awhile of this quackery I was immediately reminded of (pic related)
Best of all to you anons, but I am getting the fuck out of this madhouse of a thread

[Anonymous No.20259294]

>>20259187
>Reading it's posts
>awhile
>conan the barbarian excerpt
based retard

[dago No.20259335]

>>20259056
>>20259090
to answer you seriously
I always tell /pol/tards to read Guenon before Evola

it seems like you haven't been able to escape from the Sphinx >>20256321 and are locked into total Guenonian rigidity - chiefly related to priestly superiority over the warriors

The Bhagavad Gita clearly states that the path of Action is just as valid as the path of Contemplation.

We currently live in a time where the Catholic tradition is dead (see: Rama Coomaraswamy) and there will be no RETVRN 2 Catholicism. therefore what is needed are warriors who will usher in a new Tradition via pure action. The Aryans who conquered India in the beginning were not priests but warriors, and the Brahmin-Kshatriya divergence came at a much later time.

This is what Evola and Nietzsche are all about - laying the foundations for a new group of warriors to user in a higher type of civilization for the West.
Contrary to popular pseud opinions, Nietzsche was not a materialist nor did he disavow metaphysics. The Nietzschean doctrine is essentially Shaktism, which is a valid path.

[Anonymous No.20259348]

>>20259335
>what is needed are warriors who will usher in a new Tradition via pure action.
>new group of warriors to user in a higher type of civilization for the West.
*yawn*

[dago No.20259355]

>>20259348
seething

[Anonymous No.20259360]

>>20259355
Types like you will be the ones preparing the way for the antichrist.

The idea of "warriors who will usher in a new Tradition via pure action" is aborrhent to ANY Traditionalist (not only Guénon).

[dago No.20259373]

>>20259360
then why does the Gita say that action is just as valid as contemplation?
you're just a impotent pseud

[Anonymous No.20259377]

>>20254900
Look up catharism
For the average person, personal beliefs come first then political beliefs

[Anonymous No.20259421]

>>20259373
Action is ONLY valid when it is subject to Spiritual Authority, this is a 'dogma' so to speak hold by all Trads. The spiritual authority only needs the active men/kshatriya to enforce and keep the justice/dharma the spiritual authority embodies – the king is anointed by the pope, the kshatriya consecrated by the brahmin. This is seen in Plato, medieval europe and eastern societies. And the society is merely mirroring what happens in the individual: so should the psyche be subject to the intellect and not the other way. The 'will' is a faculty of the psyche, not the intellect.

The only function of the kshatriya is to preserve the order embodied by the spiritual authority

You just posted a modernist par excellence and anti-traditional man who tells the old tale of temporal power revolting against the spiritual power.

[Anonymous No.20259472]

Gay corny shit.

[dago No.20259473]

>>20259421
dude i've read literally every book by Guenon, I understand his /trad/ views on the matter to its fullest.
>Action is ONLY valid when it is subject to Spiritual Authority, this is a 'dogma' so to speak hold by all Trads.
THERE IS NO SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY IN THE WEST ANYMORE
You are totally locked into 1930s Guenonian rigidity and cannot see the current situation for what it is. The Church is no longer a valid Spiritual Authority.
At this point there can only be direct divine revelation

Secondly, I shall remind you that in Spiritual Authority & Temporal Power, Guenon says there is ONE exception to the rule and that is the Roman Empire.
The title of Pontifex Maximus was usurped by the Catholic Church and rightfully belongs to the Roman Emperor.

THE FUTURE IS GHIBELLINE

[Anonymous No.20259490]

>>20259373
>then why does the Gita say that action is just as valid as contemplation?
The Gita presents the path of action and the path of knowledge as two paths towards the same end-goal of God. The path of knowledge is faster but is more demanding and only a minority of people have the aptitude for it (those who dont presently may have it in a future life). The way of action is fit for the masses don't have the same aptitude as the elite minority.

[Anonymous No.20259495]

>>20259473
You have read but you have not understood.

In traditional cyclic view what comes next is not a restoration to a new tradition, but the actual end of the cycle (now through fire). It is only a sign of the times that a /pol/ tripcoder is expecting restoration through active warriors lol, when it is traditionally hold that such men will be the precursors of the antichrist (as Nietzsche already was one).

>The title of Pontifex Maximus was usurped by the Catholic Church and rightfully belongs to the Roman Emperor.
In King of the World he gives the reason why the pope is a pontifex.

You are either immature (very young) or decidedly acting in favor of the antichrist.

[Anonymous No.20259496]

>>20253068
do French people really

[dago No.20259508]

>>20259495
>In traditional cyclic view what comes next is not a restoration to a new tradition, but the actual end of the cycle
O M G
IT'S ALMOST AS IF KALKI IS A WARRIOR
>why the pope is a pontifex.
deboonked by Evola. his knowledge on the subject is far superior to Guenon.

You have been devoured by Le Sphinx!!
I am stronger and freer than thee
fuck outta here pseud

[Anonymous No.20259511]

>>20259472
>Gay corny shit.
Do you know what's really gay and corny, as well as wrong?

scientism
liberalism
neoliberalism
atheism
secularism
utilitarianism
pragmatism
egalitarianism
skepticism
anti-foundationalism
psychoanalysis
marxism
conciousness-eliminatism
logical positivism
materialism
Theosophy
process philosophy
Protestantism

[Anonymous No.20259518]

>>20259508
So you want to accelerate the end or seek your own salvation?

[dago No.20259531]

I hope you are not guenonfag btw

if you are guenonfag, I will take the time in the future to properly explain my views to you as I owe you a debt from the past few years from all your vedantapills.

[dago No.20259536]

>>20259518
why not both?
salvation through action

[dago No.20259540]

>>20259421
hmm now that I think about it
are you an orthodoxfag?

[Anonymous No.20259551]

>>20259540
Orthodox are crypto protestants. I am catholic. Not guenonposter.

[dago No.20259561]

>>20259551
okay so let's talk catholic tradition then
what elements within the Church are traditional?

[Anonymous No.20259577]

>>20259561
The Church Herself with her Sacraments and the Magisterium. It comes to this: are the sacraments valid or not? I believe they 100% are. The catholic faith revolves around the sacraments, the eucharist being the main one. Nothing else matters, not even bad opinions of bad popes.

You mentioned Rama Coomaraswamy earlier and might mention him again but I couldn't care less (and yes I have read him, though not fully).

[dago No.20259585]

>>20259577
so do you feel the entire Church is valid?
or just like SSPX/SSPV/FSSP type orgs?

[Anonymous No.20259594]

>>20259585
>the entire Church is valid
Yes.

[dago No.20259615]

>>20259594
ah ok, I see why you would hold your views against me now

well just know that if you end up taking the Sedevacantistpill that comrade Dago will gladly accept you into the barbarian encampment

[dago No.20259618]

It is curious that you bring up Ananda Coomman for certain topics yet so quick to dismiss Rama Coomman

[Anonymous No.20259629]

>>20259615
You are wrong even through a non-catholic stricly 'Guénonian-Schuonian et al' optic.

[dago No.20259639]

>>20259629
explain how I am wrong then
are you a E Michael Jones guy?

[Anonymous No.20259727]

>>20257735
>>20258703
What kind of fucked up shit can someone do after reading Guénon? I cannot even imagine someone shooting up a church or a mosque or a synagogue after reading him. I think he's not a radicalizer but the opposite.

[Anonymous No.20259759]

>>20259727
>I think he's not a radicalizer but the opposite
Or, to put it better: Guénon was one of the few "right-wing" (as direction-brains call him) "philosopher" (as he mostly don't see himself as a philosopher) whose critique of the modern world didn't make me seethe at the state of things. I felt peace the first time I read The Crisis of the Modern World.
Hell, I think the same could be said even for Evola. The fact that they don't go pointing fingers to institutions or people, and instead analyze the problem with lens that are less bound to the Zeitgeist (which is why their work is still very relevant today) and more to those eternal laws that rule society makes it so that their work becomes much more "calming" than "rage arousing".
At any rage, have a good one, you guys and the translator.

[Anonymous No.20259932]

>>20257680
The book is great too, I highly recommend it, and False Dawn by Lee Pen.

[Anonymous No.20260374]

>>20259335
What guénon said le Sphinx represented in one of his books,
>For the ancient Egyptians the symbol of the Sphinx, in one of its meanings, combined these two attributes according to their normal relationship. The human head may be considered as representing wisdom and the leonine body as representing strength; the head is the spiritual authority which directs, and the body is the strength which acts.
>This is in recall of the primordial age of the Brahmin-Kshatriyas, of "Druids" etymologically, of Le Sphinx, the Hamsa caste.
>Wisdom and strength are the respective qualities of these two classes and of the sacerdotal and royal powers, as well the symbols of the two pillars of masonry. The word Druid can be broken down into the two words DRU and VID. DRU or DERU translates into oak and strength.The sanscrit word for wisdom is VID and relates to mistletoe. Thus, dru-vid is the mistletoe of the oak, wisdom and strength united in one single word. The ancient Egyptian sphinx is also a symbol of the two powers united in one. The human head represents wisdom and the lion body represents strength. The head directs and the body acts. Spiritual authority directs and informs temporal power. In our lecture on the symbolism of Janus, the two functions were united in one god of initiation, Janus, who also holds both the two keys of sacerdotal and royal power.
>In christianity we have the two functions of priesthood and royalty united in the one person and two names of Jesus and Christ. Jesus descended from the tribe of Judah and the House of King David. In the Dead Sea Scrolls we see the prophecy that in the end of days there would appear “the prophet and the (two) messiahs of Aaron and Israel.” The priestly line was represented as the messiah of Aaron and the kingly line by the messiah of Israel or Judah. Also, in the genealology given in the gospels of Matthew and Luke, we see the descendants of the two children of king David separate into the lines of Solomon and Nathan, only to unite again 28 generations later in the parents of the Jesus child.
The riddle answer Le Sphinx traditionally:
>“What being has four legs, then two, and then three?”

[Anonymous No.20260376]

>>20260374
>In The older Rig Veda (4.58.3) and Yajur Veda (17.91) may describe the dharma bull during the Treta Yuga (2nd age; 3 legs/feet): "Four are his horns, three are the feet that bear him; his heads are two, his hands are seven in number. Bound with a triple bond the Steer roars loudly: the mighty God hath entered in to mortals." The Bhagavata Purana (1.17.24–25) describes the dharma bull during the Satya Yuga (1st age; 4 legs/feet) and the present Kali Yuga (4th age; 1 leg/foot): "In the age of Satya [truthfulness] your four legs were established by the four principles of austerity, cleanliness, mercy and truthfulness. But it appears that three of your legs are broken due to rampant irreligion in the form of pride, lust for women, and intoxication. You are now standing on one leg only, which is your truthfulness, and you are somehow or other hobbling along. But quarrel personified [Kali], flourishing by deceit, is also trying to destroy that leg."

[Anonymous No.20260386]

>>20254257
They were more well-read than people are today. Victorian England was probably the most literate society on earth.

[Anonymous No.20260393]

>>20259421
Cope embrace le Sphinx.

[Anonymous No.20260398]

I found it kind of interesting how Guenon said the Catholic Church was the best chance the West had of returning to Tradition then he went and became a Sufi

[Anonymous No.20260404]

>>20260393
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YOs252yRvIM

[Anonymous No.20260407]

>>20259577
>Nothing else matters, not even bad opinions of bad popes
vatican i and ii both disallow this position. catholics always have to blatantly ignore the councils of their own church to make it work. when are you going to realize that you're literally a protestant? you as an individual pick and choose which councils and statements you agree with and say none of the other ones matter.

[Anonymous No.20260598]

>>20260407
I fully submit to every council, the entire magisterium and do not rebel against any doctrine. By "nothing else matters" was a mode of speaking of how the centrality is around the sacraments. Opinions of popes are not binding, they are entirely personal, not ex cathedra etc.

[Anonymous No.20260736]

>>20259173
idk man, seems kinda sus
i'm an evolafag myself, although i'm not very well read, but the /pol/ conception of being white is decidedly anti-traditional
>1) supremacy is justified by materialist/modern "achievements"
>2) the same plebain racism critiqued in evola's notes on the third reich
i'm not an anti-racist by any means but it it's important to be distanced from that flavour of racism

>stop feeling so guilty over it and embrace it
what do you mean?
i'm just afraid this is an endorsement of modernity is all

[Anonymous No.20260802]

>>20256055
Content de voir mon message sur la famoso islamité de Guénon repris

>>20255407
>>20255273
Tu as discord ? J'aimerais discuter

Au passage, ton avis sur Borella cathobro ?

[Anonymous No.20260833]

>>20253068
Fuck Geonon, fuck Evola, fuck Nietzsche.

Simple as.

[dago No.20261142]

>>20260736
>but the /pol/ conception of being white is decidedly anti-traditional
I don't think it's anti-traditional necessarily, I think it is more of a degenerated tradition. what was formerly a united christendom has been loosely reduced to unity via blood
im american tho so naturally I am very racist
> it it's important to be distanced from that flavour of racism
I agree, pleb biological racism is cringe

>>20260374
very based thanks

[Anonymous No.20261444]

>>20261142
The biological plays a role in the Traditional conception of race, it is just subordinate to the soul and spirit principles. Still, these are all intertwined through the blood...

[Anonymous No.20261450]

>>20260802
Vas te faire futre sal negre, putin juif

[Anonymous No.20261489]

>>20259173
You're a fucking retard.

1. Whites degenerated away from Tradition to materialism over thousands of years, under influence by Easterners (semites). The East went from Trad to the most crude materialists often in a matter of decades, often with little or no coersion from whites.

2. Ancient (traditional) times consistently and perennially speak of white-skinned, blue or grey-eyed, light/golden-haired colonisers. You don't even need to delve into myth/legend to find it at times. Do you think the white Aryan god-men "bringing light" to India which had been under the unfluence of chthonic earth-mother death cults were making things worse? How about in Mexico? Peru? North Africa? New Zealand? Ireland? Etc. Whites are engineers and "light bringers" if we understand light to be some sort of advanced development, which can take different forms.

It seems like you're some form of mutt with an inferiority complex. You should instead identify with and appreciate your "white" genetics, and thank a higher power that you're not 100% chimp "primitive." Instead you act like a dirty shudra.

[Anonymous No.20261496]

>>20258955
Denying the transcendent principle of race is anti- or counter-Traditional, quite clearly.

[Anonymous No.20261515]

>>20256481
Holy capeshit cringe

[Anonymous No.20261599]

>>20259186
The person you are talking to has no spiritual wisdom. They are more concerned about slandering Evola or moralfagging about pol and white supremacy, as if they are terrified of young white men becoming spiritually-minded and revitalising the West (the goal of both Traditionalists). Guenon was purely intellectual, Evola active-intellectual. Both understood and could appreciate the spheres of the other.

To understand Hermetic alchemy from a Traditional initiatic perspective, Evola's Hermetic Tradition lays out the theory and some technical details, ItM goes into practice. It tells you what it actually means to be initiated. Most of the work still needs to be done by you to actually figure it out and live it. You will need to study and practice those books and read/contemplate the original works for them to make more sense over time. Then heroic myth which is used in their symbolic language will start to become more than "allegory". There are other groups out there with the same goals, who you can worry about joining later.

"You will know them by their fruits". I have posted in this thread with minimal (though detailed) posts, my motivations mainly being to help others find a path towards awakening. That other guy is more obsessed with apparently negating the idea that pre-Christian white Traditional civilisations were characterised by aristocratic, noble and Royal elements, ironically with these traits being a presupposition to initiatic Traditions if you are a Traditionalist. Pretending this has anything to do with pol is puerile but perhaps reveals his motivations. "Tell me who your enemies are and I will tell you who you are." He can content himself with memorizing theories and worrying if pol and nazis have besmirched transcendent knowledge. I've done my part for now.

[Anonymous No.20261628]

>>20261489
>100% chimp "primitive"
>dirty shudra
Lel

[Anonymous No.20261636]

>>20259360
Why are you stripping action of its sacred traits? You will sit on your ass writing long posts from your purely rational mind, whining about men who are building farms and forging bonds based on shared higher values to overcome the dissolutive forces which are quickly taking society towards satanism. Obviously WISDOM comes first, and the wisdom or knowledge will come from experience. You may as well chop your cock off just sitting here like a fag seething that other people are meditating and corporealising consciousness. We become a decentralised center first. You have no center, you are aimless, which is why you are so desperate to have a say over what is or isn't Traditional instead of just keeping silent and finding it there

[Anonymous No.20261640]

>>20261599
>There are other groups out there with the same goals, who you can worry about joining later
How do you find them?

[dago No.20261650]

>>20261489
negro, I am /pol/pilled to the max
seems like you just wanted an excuse to flex your /pol/ knowledge so i'll allow it and won't hit back
>It seems like you're some form of mutt
picrel
>>20261636
based

[Anonymous No.20261681]

Why the long face?

[Anonymous No.20261724]

>>20261640
By going down the rabbit hole. I don't think they care much until you've achieved certain objective states though.

[Anonymous No.20261731]

>>20261681
High-IQ autism face, usually tall people but not always.

>>20261650
I don't care about pol knowledge

[Anonymous No.20261732]

>>20261640
He's a o9a

[Anonymous No.20261738]

>>20261732
Lol

[dago No.20261769]

>>20261732
It is interesting to note that Myatt turned away from le satanism to hermeticism
I always thought o9a's sevenfold way was kinda interesting and could be applied in a trad way

[Anonymous No.20261797]

>>20261769
>I always thought o9a's sevenfold way was kinda interesting and could be applied in a trad way
That's says so much about you
O9a is literally new age bs but edgy

[Anonymous No.20261807]

>>20253434
The absolute state of urban bugmen.

[dago No.20261809]

>>20261797
>hurr durr
guenon basically followed the path to a T
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Nine_Angles#Initiation_and_the_Seven_Fold_Way
>insight role 1
freemasonry
>insight role 2
vedanta
>insight role 3
sufism

[Anonymous No.20261904]

>>20261809
He's right retard
Your shit is as traditional as Crowley's O.T.O./A.A.
No traditional attach or root
A fucked up metaphysics (nexus LOL)
Not to mention all the modern heresies (gngn galactic aryan empire, transhumanism)
Get lost
This is literally counter-initiation for the righties

[Anonymous No.20261913]

>>20253068
Cringe and desert-semitepilled.

[dago No.20261928]

>>20261904
did I say o9a was based?
did I say o9a was traditional?
no you fucking brainlet
I said their Sevenfold Way is kinda interesting and could be applied in a traditional method

fucking retard neck yourself

>galactic empire
actually this is a based aspect too
thanks for reminding me

[Anonymous No.20261937]

>>20258922
>>20258955
>>20259056
Don't even engage with people who take thinkers such as Nietzsche seriously. Anyone who has actually read Nietzsche and who possesses any sort of Traditional mindset immediately sees, or even senses, the deceit and subversiveness that is afoot. The mere fact alone that Evola integrated Nietzsche with Guenon shows that he is nearly worthless for anyone seeking Tradition.
They put the material on a much higher plane than it is actually on, and claim that they do so because of analogy. They do not contemplate, they act.

There is no use talking or arguing with people who think that Christianity, for example, maintains Tradition to this day, they do so only because of a surface level and material attachment to some idea of the West which no longer exists. Myself being a westerner, I can understand their viewpoint, however immature it really is, but anyone who possesses an ounce of intellect or spirituality would not waste their time with the petty matters that Evola largely focuses on, that being race and various things which must be described as the occult (or even western philosophies such as German Idealism). There is a place for western Tradition, and even race, however it is a very small one which does not deserve the attention or importance ascribed by people in this thread.

Anyone that is arrogant enough to think that they are paving the way for a new western Tradition is not worth engaging with (see >>20259335 ). If they had actually read Guenon, Coomaraswamy, etc.., they would know intimately that such an endeavor will never work, it will never be Traditional, and is nothing but a subversive waste of time and spirit.

However, I am glad to see someone else with a Traditionally minded mindset here, it seemed as if all the discussion around Traditionalism here was utterly subverted.

[Anonymous No.20261951]

Has anyone here ever thought about the initiatic organisations and occultism of Byzantium? I've never thought about it, as much as I have of the Western European traditions, I wonder if there is any information on it, seems like an underdeveloped field of study.

[Anonymous No.20261958]

>>20261937
>filtered by Nietzsche
sad

[Anonymous No.20261970]

>>20261769
What an embarrassing thing to say. Save these posts and come back to them in 5 years, you will feel shame.

[Anonymous No.20261974]

>>20261958
You haven't read Nietzsche.

[Anonymous No.20261983]

>>20261937
>There is no use talking or arguing with people who think that Christianity, for example, maintains Tradition to this day, they do so only because of a surface level and material attachment to some idea of the West which no longer exists. Myself being a westerner, I can understand their viewpoint, however immature it really is, but anyone who possesses an ounce of intellect or spirituality would not waste their time with the petty matters that Evola largely focuses on, that being race and various things which must be described as the occult (or even western philosophies such as German Idealism). There is a place for western Tradition, and even race, however it is a very small one which does not deserve the attention or importance ascribed by people in this thread.
>If they had actually read Guenon, Coomaraswamy, etc.., they would know intimately that such an endeavor will never work, it will never be Traditional, and is nothing but a subversive waste of time and spirit
So you instead endorse just the pure importation of eastern Tradition to the west, just a way which replaces all pre-existing western traditional structures? This doesn't make sense, even if we look at the spread of Buddhism, for example in Japan, Tibet, etc. Arguably even India itself, same goes for Islam, syncretic traditions were amalgamated incorporating previous shamanism, and practices, etc.
So what do you think is the way forward for the West? Of course we know that the "way forward" is probably going to trigger you, but try to dismiss whatever evolutionary subtextual interpolations you may feel that I have provoked.

[dago No.20261984]

>>20261937
>paving the way for a new western Tradition is not worth engaging
>such an endeavor will never work
so what's your plan? roll over to Islam?
>>20261970
>>20261904
>>20261797
samefag
funny how you can't refute what I said here though >>20261809
keep seething

[Anonymous No.20262010]

>>20261937
>They put the material on a much higher plane than it is actually on, and claim that they do so because of analogy. They do not contemplate, they act.
Noone here fully endorses Nietzsche or is even considering him some sort of bastion of Tradition, that would be incoherent, what is your path of contemplation? I'm sorry but you seem like a pedantic pseud, obviously you are still at a low-level when you cannot see through things which appear contradictory, etc. Etc.

[Anonymous No.20262025]

>>20261984
>>20261983
I have no interest in squabbling with someone who thinks that they can found a new tradition under the influence of Evola and Nietzsche.
All I will say is read Guenon, Coomaraswamy, and Schuon, as you clearly have not, which is shown by your utter lack of understanding of what Tradition is.

[Anonymous No.20262026]

>>20254379
how do you identify witches? redpill me on this witch hunt shit

[dago No.20262030]

>>20262025
>lack of understanding of what Tradition
pure projection, Norvus Ordo-kun

[Anonymous No.20262048]

>>20262025
>>20262030
ITT clueless niggas pretending that they've read books which they clearly didn't

[dago No.20262053]

>>20262048
the anon is a Norvus Ordo Catholic and claims to be """Traditional"""
laughable

[dago No.20262071]

Norvus Ordo Cuck
>you haven't read Coomaraswamy
>you can't understand Tradition without reading Coomaraswamy
>I base my ideas around Coomaraswamy's work
namefag chad
>Have you read his son's writings on Catholicism and how Sedevacantism is the only valid Traditional position?
Norvus Ordo Cuck
>*uncontrollable seething*


many such cases
sad!

[Anonymous No.20262082]

>>20254403
Sacraments are a paradigmatic example of an exoteric practice.

[dago No.20262083]

>>20262053
>>20262030
>>20262071
Novus****

my b pseud move

[dago No.20262100]

>>20262082
here's what Schuon says on the matter
>In a more general sense, we would say that the Christian sacraments are exoteric for exoterists, and esoteric or initiatic for esoterists; in the first case their end is salvation pure and simple, and in the second it is mystical union.

the problem lies more with the validity of the sacraments post-Vatican II

[Anonymous No.20262105]

>>20262010
>>20261984
>>20261983

Forgive me, I spoke too hastily and did so with vigor and inappropriate emotion.
I unironically wish you guys the best of luck with what you wish to do, I would very much love to see a Western Tradition rise again, I just don't see a way in which it is possible.

Could you recommend me anything which has influenced you to stick to a more Western path, or anything which gives hope for the future of Western Tradition?

[Anonymous No.20262124]

>>20262010
You've contributed absolutely nothing to this thread, all you have tried to do here, is decontruct Evola et. al. It seems that you don't realise that "anything" can be deconstructed this is very much the method of the Modern pseudo-philosophers, you've also forgotten that opposites can be reconciled, Is this the power of the way of Contemplation?
Don't mistake, me and the other guy, this is not abour squabbling, or the petty historicism of some facet of an individual author, the way of tradition is entirely supra-individual, what exactly does negating this "evola" achieve, why won't you answer the following? What do you consider as the path for the West, do you fear that your opinion may be too profane, anti-traditional, I simply don't understand?
There is no anti-tradition opposed to tradition, there is simply the point of view of ignorance, are you not purged of ignorance? I guess your answer must be along the lines of: to be cut off as branch from the trunk and regrown, you must be the holy man who transcends himself totally, but somehow you come here to share this or that idea, you come here to debate, to conflict, when you know that these sorts of procedures are of the point of view of ignorance, what exactly are you seeking here?
Why not try to dump, here exactly what it is which is so worthwhile which you've gained from Traditonalism, share some teachings which have given you peace, I am not asking you to circumscribe the uncircumscribable, afterall if you know 10 you teach 9, I understand that we are talking about something which in essence will constitute supra-rational experience so to speak, but you must understand that the compromise that there is no experience here, is pretty much implicit and understood by everyone as they participate in this form of discussion, after-all you've suggested for me to read Books, books are writings, Guénon's books could be dumped in this thread, quotes, etc.
What are you here for?

[dago No.20262174]

>>20262105
>anything which gives hope for the future of Western Tradition?
bitcoin

[Anonymous No.20262218]

I've yet to ever get a good answer from racialist traditionalist as to what a mixed race people are to do as far as spiritual concerns go.
>inb4 kill yourself
No.

[Anonymous No.20262222]

>>20261142
>im american
>>20261650
>picrel
poetry

[dago No.20262238]

>>20262222 (CHECKED)
>The man of an age of dissolution which mixes the races with one another, who has the inheritance of a diversified descent in his body—that is to say, contrary, and often not only contrary, instincts and standards of value, which struggle with one another and are seldom at peace—such a man of late culture and broken lights, will, on an average, be a weak man. His fundamental desire is that the war which is IN HIM should come to an end; happiness appears to him in the character of a soothing medicine and mode of thought (for instance, Epicurean or Christian); it is above all things the happiness of repose, of undisturbedness, of repletion, of final unity—it is the "Sabbath of Sabbaths," to use the expression of the holy rhetorician, St. Augustine, who was himself such a man.—Should, however, the contrariety and conflict in such natures operate as an ADDITIONAL incentive and stimulus to life—and if, on the other hand, in addition to their powerful and irreconcilable instincts, they have also inherited and indoctrinated into them a proper mastery and subtlety for carrying on the conflict with themselves (that is to say, the faculty of self-control and self-deception), there then arise those marvelously incomprehensible and inexplicable beings, those enigmatical men, predestined for conquering and circumventing others, the finest examples of which are Alcibiades and Caesar (with whom I should like to associate the FIRST of Europeans according to my taste, the Hohenstaufen, Frederick the Second), and among artists, perhaps Leonardo da Vinci. They appear precisely in the same periods when that weaker type, with its longing for repose, comes to the front; the two types are complementary to each other, and spring from the same causes.

[dago No.20262281]

>>20262218
just stay out of my way and we'll be cool man
https://i.4cdn.org/wsg/1650211529707.webm

[Anonymous No.20262369]

>>20262281
>just stay out of my way
AHAHAHAHA you are the king of the autist playground m8 absolute fag

[Anonymous No.20262374]

>>20262105
>what has influenced "YOU"
The realisation that the "point of view" is neither western nor eastern, I am not chasing anything, there is no head above my head, my head is right where it belongs, what are you to see in the future when you're blind?
>Whoever participates in universal Knowledge will regard two apparently contradictory truths as he would two points situated on one and the same circumference that links them together by its continuity and so reduces them to unity; in the measure in which these points are distant from and thus opposed to one another there will be contradiction and this contradiction will reach its maximum when the two points are situated at the extremities of a diameter of the circle; but this extreme opposition or contradiction only appears as a result of isolating the points under consideration from the circle and ignoring the existence of the latter.
Right now I am on the path of realisation, I have no temporal power, no organisational influence I am not a proponent of a "Western Tradition," in whatever wordly way you mean it, there is no such thing as fleeing the "Western" path there is only one center and one circle, conflating civilisational subjects with what I am endorsing here is not the point.
>Of all men’s miseries the bitterest is this: to know so much and to have control over nothing.
I do not delude myself, I am not going to change the form of Western Tradition, and never claimed that this was my purpose, all things pan out and follow the same pattern, however, in my experience and from my point of view, the reason there are many religions, is precisely their difference, they are each inferior and superior in some respects when compared with eachother, they all particularise universal truths in their own theologocal languages, my plan is to continue studying, and smoking opium like Guénon (pbuh) and be guided to new heights of realisation, currently I am practicing dream yoga, but will soon be initiated into a plethora of Tibetan buddhist lineages, I will not name the specific lineages, but I will be initiated into as many traditions as I can, I will also be receiving a sufi initiation soon aswell, my next goal after this will be to receive a tantric shaivite initiation, and possibly Taoist I am only young so there is plenty of time for these things, even through all these considerations, I don't consider this multi-traditional behaviour counter-initiatic or anti-traditional in any sense. I also plan on eventually, travelling to Mt. Athos, right now I am not prepared to write anything about my "beliefs" but in terms of practical Western Tradition, I am interested in the Freemasonry, however this one lodge near my whereabouts, is full of wealthy Jews, doctors, lawyers, and whenever I go near the building I start getting a bad feeling, almost like a "stay-away," in the organised esoteric sense, the western tradition is not dead, since tradition is never "born" and has never been "alive."

[dago No.20262406]

>>20262369
>you are the king

[Anonymous No.20262427]

>>20262124
>What is the path of the West.
The assimilation of every single tradition, the amalgamation of the entirety of tradition, the unification of plurality and multiplicity, the re-establishment of the Primordial Tradition, the coalescence of all streams, of tradition, the initiation of the Kalki into said Tradition, the subsequent death and resurrection of the world.
It's a very simple thing.

[Anonymous No.20262440]

The prince of Wales, Prince charles is a humble disciple of Guénon (pbuh)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temenos_Academi
He funds a great publication, I wonder what their objectives are?

[Anonymous No.20262444]

>>20262374
Thank you.
I think we are remarkably similar, though you seem to have a little more direction than me. May you find peace and unity in your future journeys, perhaps our paths will cross one day.

[Anonymous No.20262459]

>>20262440
I was referring to the publication "Sacred Web"
http://www.sacredweb.com/

[dago No.20262481]

>>20262440
interesting...
here is there curriculum:
>Part One: The Western Tradition: Oct 2021 – June 2022
Students will be introduced to seminal texts of metaphysics, the visionary imagination and mysticism in the Western tradition. These formative works of the West include readings from the Dialogues of Plato, the Enneads of Plotinus, the poetic vision of Dante’s Divine Comedy, the Christian mystical writings of Meister Eckhart, and the theology of love in St Bernard of Clairvaux’s On Loving God.
>Part One: structure
The course is divided into three modules over three terms:
(1) Metaphysics: 10 weeks, 5 October to 7 December 2021
(2) The Visionary Imagination: 12 weeks, 11 January to 29 March 2022
(3) Mysticism: 10 weeks, 26 April to 28 June 2022
>Part One: content
>Metaphysics
Weeks 1–5: An introduction to Plato’s account of the creation of the cosmos, the nature of reality and the relationship between knowledge and the real, the mystical vision of the philosopher, the nature of the soul and Plato’s understanding of philosophy as a spiritual practice.
Textual sources: Timaeus, Republic, Phaedrus and Phaedo.
Weeks 6–10: An introduction to Plotinus’ understanding of the One and the Many, the soul’s descent into the body and the path of return to the transcendent.
Textual source: Selections from the Enneads.
>The Visionary Imagination
The full text of Dante’s great visionary poem, The Divine Comedy, will be read in English translation. The module will cover the metaphysical and cosmological background to the poem as well as introducing students to the rich heritage of illustrations of the Divine Comedy from medieval to modern times.
Weeks 1–4: Inferno
Weeks 5–8: Purgatorio
Weeks 9–12: Paradiso
>Mysticism
Weeks 1–5: An introduction to the great Christian mystic Meister Eckhart through selected sermons, Biblical commentaries and treatises.
Textual Sources: Sermons, Commentary on John 1, Book of Benedictus, and On Detachment.
Weeks 6–10: An introduction to the mystical theology of love in St Bernard of Clairvaux.
Textual Source: On Loving God.

[dago No.20262492]

>>20262481
>Part Two: Eastern Traditions: Oct 2022 – June 2023
Students will be introduced to textual sources of the perennial philosophy in three major Eastern traditions: Hinduism, Taoism and Islamic Mysticism. Through guided reading of the The Bhagavad Gītā and the Upaniṣhads; the Tao Te Ching, Chuang Tzu and the Huai Nan Tzu; and ’Attar’s The Conference of the Birds, along with the writings of the great Islamic metaphysician Ibn ’Arabi, Part Two will ground students in the wisdom traditions of the East.
>Part Two: structure
The course is divided into three modules over three terms:
(1) Hinduism: 10 weeks, 4 October to 6 December 2022
(2) Taoism: 10 weeks, 10 January to 14 March 2023
(3) Islamic Mysticism: 10 weeks, 25 April to 27 June 2023
>Part Two: content
>Hinduism
Weeks 1–5: An introduction to the classic of Hindu religious philosophy, the Bhagavad Gītā. The full text will be read.
Weeks 6–10: A study of selected passages from the principal Upaniṣhads, focusing on teachings concerning the Self or Ātman, the doctrines of rebirth and salvation, and the concept of Brahman. Where possible, the commentaries of Shankara will be used as a guide.
Textual sources: The Bhagavad Gītā, and selections from the Upaniṣhads.
>Taoism
An exploration of key themes of Taoism, including heaven and earth, life and death, transformation and illumination.
Weeks 1-4: Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching (complete text).
Weeks 5-7: Selected writings from the Chuang Tzu.
Week 8-10: Selected writings from the Huai Nan Tzu.
Textual Sources: Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching, and selections from the Chuang Tzu, and the Huai Nan Tzu.
>Islamic Mysticism
Weeks 1–5: A study of the full text of ’Attar’s The Conference of the Birds, introducing basic principles of creation, unity, self-knowledge and the spiritual quest.
Weeks 6-10: An introduction to the work of Ibn ’Arabī, based on selected readings from The Ringstones of Wisdom, exploring these themes in more depth.
Textual Sources: ’Attar, The Conference of the Birds. Ibn ’Arabī: selections from Fuṣūṣ al-ḥikam (The Ringstones of Wisdom), al-Futuḥāt al-Makkiyya (The Meccan Revelations) and Kitab al-Isfar (The Book of Journeying).

[Anonymous No.20262570]

>>20262492
>>20262481
Absolutely kino curriculum, I recognise pretty much everything there just from my reading of Guénon and use of /lit/, British royalty read guénon, and yet still people here think guénon is a meme, however what the ends of this "temenos" project are, I am very curious, it's been no secret that various globalists, etc. Support various aspects of "Traditionalism" or are at least aware of it, this alone makes me really doubt the sort of simplification of the whole "globalism" narrative, I've seen from people here, who acr as if western "elites" are metaphysical shudras etc. Kek

[Anonymous No.20262581]

>>20262570
*act

[dago No.20262625]

>>20262570
>Absolutely kino curriculum
it's not that expensive either
>British royalty read guénon
I've watched Prince Chuck talk before and he said that his favorite magazine was a Traditionalist magazine (can't remember which one off the top of my head. might be this one >>20262459)
He's mentioned Evola before too...
Ameribros... Should we take the Loyalistpill once Prince Chuck becomes King?!?

it seems his main interest is the intersection of Traditionalism and Ecology.
Like this guy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_James,_4th_Baron_Northbourne

[Anonymous No.20262667]

>>20262625
>Guénonian King
Holy.. based..
>Ecology Traditionalism
Check out this website I found
https://hw.energy/round-table/
Scroll down..
>Top 100 startups shaping the Fourth Industrial Revolution
>WEF supported...
Yet /lit/ still thinks Guénon is a pseud nobody takes seriously.

[Anonymous No.20262671]

>>20262218
that person was a retard which probably doesn't follow any living tradition, only neo-pagans would say such things because they aren't part of any real community

[Anonymous No.20262686]

>>20257735
Jealous American cunt. I hope you get shot in the fucking head. That fellow is doing honest work translating amazing books into a major world language, and you are doing nothing only clucking away like an old hen annoying everyone. Shut the fuck up.

[Anonymous No.20262703]

>guénon gets discussed on 4chan
>half of the replies are racially oriented
what a surprise...

[dago No.20262721]

>>20262667
>Guénonian King
>Round Table
We will be his Guénonian Knights of the Round Table!!*
>Website
That is quite an interesting website. Pretty bold to list Guenon and co. on the home page.
Is this the future for Vaishyas?
>58 million dollars raised
not bad desu!


*On a side note - Evola always talked about the potential of having Arthurian Grail /lit/ as our core texts.

[dago No.20262729]

>>20262703
im sorry anon it was largely my fault
it was just b8 at the beginning

[Anonymous No.20262742]

>>20262105
The level of realization of these people
>lies, deceit

[Anonymous No.20262752]

let's make a guenon discord server
add me hadrien#1172

[Anonymous No.20262756]

>>20262721
Kek, there are books about it like "False Dawn: The United Religions Initiative, Globalism, and the Quest for a One-World Religion" you can search online
>"Guénon" World Economic Forum
For example, and you will find interesting UNESCO papers, Essentialy "Globalist" papers where you see little hints here and there to Guénon; sometimes the ideas are inverted, etc. But there is a knowledge of Guénon amongst the elites,
Here is an article about how the top Freemasons in France, essentialy split into to groups Evolians and Guénonians, and essentialy were in schism for a time kek.
https://counter-currents.com/2012/11/freemasons-against-the-modern-world/

[Anonymous No.20262765]

>>20262752
Don't Join this R*manians discord, he banned me!

[Anonymous No.20262767]

I was in the side of the guenonian bashing the namefag but upon the revelation of his catholic faith he lost me. Even being a evolian nietzschean materialist namefag is better than a catholic. How can you say you read all of that people and still ended up being a christcuck? Shame for you, hylic

[Anonymous No.20262776]

>>20262765
I am not r*manian, buddy

[Anonymous No.20262810]

>>20262767
>Against Nietzschean Materialism
>Christcuck
Confused...

[dago No.20262817]

>>20262756
>False Dawn
might have to check it out this year. Charles Upton talks about that book more than any other book with the exception of Reign of Quantity.
I very much like that genre - sort of like counter-initiatory conspiracy theories
>Essentialy "Globalist" papers where you see little hints here and there to Guénon
interesting... what kind of hints?
>Here is an article about how the top Freemasons in France, essentialy split into to groups Evolians and Guénonians, and essentialy were in schism for a time kek.
duuuuuuuuuude
you are the man!!
some anon was telling me about this a couple weeks ago and told me it was only available in French and was bummed out about not being able to read it
fugggin based
>>20262767
talkin about me?
I am a technically a Sede
certainly not a materialist
more Shakti than Vedanta
cope more?

[Anonymous No.20262827]

>>20262776
You are man, I remember just joined your larpy discord, ages ago, same tag #HadrienXXXX
Here is what you advertised:
>I was wondering the same thing. I thought that is because I don't visit this website as much as I did in the past. Anyone with a discord and interested in Guénon, give me a friend request to Hadrien#1291 and I will give you an invite to my discord server.

[dago No.20262830]

>>20262767
>>20262817
nvm talking about the other nigga
the Novus Ordo reveal was a wildcard

[Anonymous No.20262833]

>>20253068
>What the fuck there are actual people who take guenon seriously
How can you not take him seriously when he writes with such precision and forcefulness of argumentation?!?!

[Anonymous No.20262853]

>>20262817
mr. dago, do you think that you seem cool for using a name and talking like that? you give me the impression that you're a clown.

[dago No.20262855]

>>20262756
>https://counter-currents.com/2012/11/freemasons-against-the-modern-world/
>the author recounts how he unwittingly joins a Lodge captivated by Traditionalism and divided between devotees of Julius Evola and René Guénon
the Frenchies are sleeping on my boy Stevie J tho

[dago No.20262871]

>>20262853
>do you think that you seem cool for using a name and talking like that?
my b kohai it was my mistake and misread your post
please understand that I mask my posts in layers of b8 to draw out the weaknesses of my enemies
old /pol/tard tactic
>you give me the impression that you're a clown.
aren't we all?

[Anonymous No.20262948]

>>20262817
>what kind of hints
They admit Guénon was Right, sometimes namedrop him. Kek, they could just be pretending, I have found many of these sorts of documents so, I cannot summarise them all really, but alot of them are talking about "the future of the west" they give hints in this regard, hints about the future, etc.

[dago No.20263037]

>>20262948
thanks for the share
it does seem like there is an opportunity to 'convert' globalists into traditionalists

from the letter you posted
>Imperialism of Techno-Capitalism
Nick Land bros....

[Anonymous No.20263104]

>>20262767
Guénon and the others supported Christianity.

>>20261937
>There is no use talking or arguing with people who think that Christianity, for example, maintains Tradition to this day,
I am the anon you are replying to. What God has promised to grant he would never cease to grant. Schuon is right on this. I might post some quotes later.

[Anonymous No.20263149]

digging this thread, unlike the Zamorean here >>20259187

[dago No.20263530]

>>20263149
based

[Anonymous No.20263543]

>>20259727
Twisting it to fit in some dumb narrative

[Anonymous No.20263552]

>>20262871
I usually hate namefags, but you're alright

[dago No.20263562]

>>20263552
I almost never namefag here
just felt like testing some new ideas here and namefgging helps draw some heat

[dago No.20263563]

>>20263552
>>20263562
but thank you for the kind words sir!

[Anonymous No.20263566]

>>20263104
Yeah and none of them were christians. Why? Because there is no esoterism in christianity. Its a rotten religion

[Anonymous No.20263636]

>>20263562
if Guenon is Luigi, who is Mario?

[dago No.20263654]

>>20263636
drumpf

[Anonymous No.20263720]

>>20263636
me

[Anonymous No.20263863]

>>20255273
Excellent post

[Anonymous No.20264317]

>>20259511
Checking for this based shillkiller

[Anonymous No.20264335]

>>20263566
None of them were "Christians" and none of them were "Muslims" either; the person who realises the fundamental unity of traditions, is by his very nature unconvertible, Guénon claims in his books to be more "Christian" and know more about "Christianity" than "Christians" etc. the reason you would use the word "esoterism" but still cling to exoteric "religous" viewpoints and distinctions really evades me, obviously you have no realised the fundamentally esoteric unity of "religions," which Schuon, Guénon et. al. Realised and advocated, there is a "religous" and then "supra-religous" point of view, the later is superior.

[Anonymous No.20264382]

>>20263566
It is rotten only in the mind of a rotten person. I'll post excerpts from AKC's letters:

>...difficulty for any student to understand Eastern culture unless he has a background of knowledge of the traditional philosophy and culture of Europe— prc- Socratics, Plato, Philo, Hermes, Gospels, Plotinus, Dionysius, Bonaventura, St Thomas, Eckhart, Ruysbroeck, Boehme.

>What we need is the revival of Christian dogma. (This is precisely where the East is of use and help— I have even been told by Catholics that my own work has given them renewed confidence, which is just the effect it should have.)

>I do not see how anyone who cannot read John, or Dionysius, or much of Philo or Hermes or Plotinus with enthusiasm can read the Upanishads with enthusiasm;

>I do think it necessary to have as a background a knowledge of metaphysics. For a European this means an acquaintance with and verification of the Gospels (at least John), Gnostic and Hermetic literature, Plotinus, Dionysius, Eckhart, Dante.

>For religions other than the Christian this expression is used: “Imitation of the Eternal Idea” , in other words, exactly what the Christains say. When you read Plato, I hope in the original, you will meet every Christian idea (including the above)...

>The metaphysical whole or holy man cannot make our kind of distinction between what a thing is and what it means; all values are traditionally at the same time substantial and transubstandal (the Eucharist preserves an isolated survival of this once universal point of view).

>I may add that my faith in the truth of Christianity (“faith” as defined by St Thomas) would not in the least be affected by a positive disproof of the historicity of the Christ...

>What I am appalled by is that even Catholics who have the truth if they would only operate with it wholeheartedly, are nearly all tainted with modernism.

>I think consistently highly of Guenon. Speaking of the desirability of a return (for Europe) to Christianity, he remarks that “if this could be, the modern world would automatically disappear.”

>As I see it, neither civilization has anything to learn from the other. How often I respond to Western inquirers by saying “Why seek wisdom in India? You have it all in the tradition of your own which you have only forgotten. The value of the Eastern tradition for you is not that of a difference, but that it can remind you of what you have forgotten.

[Anonymous No.20264389]

>>20253434
>It kinda changes my perception of rural people
woah its almost like they are actual people

[Anonymous No.20264390]

>>20264335
*superior not exclusive or necesserily different, which is why Guénon received multiple intiations into multiple traditions, there is nothing wrong with that, but are we to say he converted to Taoism when he received a Taoist initiation, he converted to Freemasonry when he engaged in this? He converted to Martinism when he was a part of a Martinist order, when he contributed to a Catholic journal posing as a Catholic, are we to say he was a Catholic then? OR when he was initiated into Sufism he was converted to sufism obviously, not. Guénon was a universal expositor of Tradition, exclusive he was not, he simply held to truth of initiation — but such a thing was not by any means exclusive, and was simply a means to aiding unitary supr-rational Univeraal metaphysical realisation. If anything Guénon considered Vedism to be the peerless model of religious perfection in the pre-Abrahamic epoch and, consequently, used Brahminism as a standard to compare with later religious developments. As Guenon moved into his middle years, he remained within the Roman Catholic milieu although he was still involved in the Parisian occult subculture. His initiation into Sufism by Ivan Agueli in 1912 was only one of many spiritual groups he joined at the time. He certainly began to take Islam seriously, but Roman Catholicism was still at the core of his spiritual practice even at this time, only he certainly became more serious when he moved to Egypt, but what do we truly know about Guénons or another persons "belief" afterall, Guénon made a note that he would never be absolutely transparent, however, are we going to deny that if anything Guénon was very much beyond "religous" distinction? The natural conclusion of Traditionalism is this sort of supra-relgious perspective.

[micsimonve No.20264531]

>>20264389
its too common to eat papier...
>letsplayhooken'

[Anonymous No.20264611]

IIRC, toward the end of his life, Guenon gave up on Catholicism being a valid tradition for the Western man. This but of biographical information is in the Essential Rene Guenon. Another interesting bit, his wife was a fan of Guenon's writings and was his next door neighbor and knew him as Abd al Wahid Yahya, but for the longest time, didn't know he actually Rene Guenon.

[Anonymous No.20264987]

>>20255972
Guenon was initiated into a triad gang from what I read of his account, not Daoism (Zhengyi and Quanzhen).