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20241275 No.20241275[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

Has there been any good responses to this book so far? I couldn't find any.

>> No.20241280

>>20241275
Who cares

>> No.20241292

>>20241280
Me. That's why I made the thread.

>> No.20241302

>>20241292
No you don't

>> No.20241309

atheistbros…
we lost

>> No.20241316

>>20241275
No. Hart is irrefutable. You should see his recent take down of Ed Feser

https://davidbentleyhart.substack.com/p/edward-fesers-sub-christian-dualism

>> No.20241317

>>20241292
>Me
You're the only one. This book isn't going to make atheists change their mind, you're not going to make people change their minds in general, stop wasting your time. Nobody ever went
>man this internet argument sure made me see things differently and reconsider my entire belief system

>> No.20241321

>>20241302
I do. I like modern theological debates. I think they improved significantly since Dawkins era.

>> No.20241340

>>20241317
>This book isn't going to make atheists change their mind
I don't care

>> No.20241353

>>20241316
>I promised in my last email to you that I would reply to your recent review of my book You Are Gods soon. As you see, I have borrowed your title, with alterations. I apologize for not responding with the furious instantaneity that has always characterized our public exchanges in the past; it is not because of any indifference on my part, but only because I am preparing for a conference in Ireland at the month’s end and am behind on everything. I regret, of course, that since we struck a (second or third) rhetorical armistice a couple years ago, I cannot indulge in the sort of—well, let’s call it “light badinage” that used to make this sort of thing more entertaining for me. I used to relish the contrapuntal differences between my style of humor (H.L. Mencken, S.J. Perelman, Charles Lamb, Thomas Love Peacock) and yours (Photoshop, endless variations on the hilarious homophony of “Hart” and “heart,” and so on); but those days, alas, are long gone.
Cringe

>> No.20241389

>I read a book written by retards for retards and I need yet another retard to tell me what to think about it
Stop shilling the "work" of failed academics who shit out self-published crap aimed at those who don't know any better. Read books of quality. Learn to think for yourself.

>> No.20241401

>>20241389
What's wrong with the book? He has good knowledge of neoplatonism and thomism.

>> No.20241616
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20241616

>>20241321
>I think they improved significantly since Dawkins era.
the god delusion was published in 2006. hart's book was published in 2009 so it is definitely from "the dawkins era", when a number of books with titles like "_______ delusion(s)" were published as hastily-written cash-in responses to dawkins' book.
there is no need to "respond" to hart's book since it does not really make any new arguments. it is mainly just a comfort blanket for thin-skinned religionists who feel somehow embittered by the fact that they can no longer burn heretics at the stake. the battle is lost- dawkins had already won. get fucked, hart, you lardy slapheaded turd.
pic unrelated

>> No.20241627

>>20241353
that passage made me kek

>> No.20241629

>>20241616
>dawkins had already won
I can see it, like when dealing criticized islam a couple of years ago and had all of his debates cancelled for being an islamophobe. Or looking at how islam only continues to grow in Europe. He truly won uh?

>> No.20241634

>>20241275
Presumably: why Jesus instead of Allah.
No good answer.

>> No.20241663
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20241663

>>20241616
>dawkins had already won

>> No.20241669

>>20241634
Islam. Orthodox View by Daniel Sysoev (martyred by Muslims)
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/world/islam-orthodox-view/

St. John of Damascus’s Critique of Islam
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx

The Qur’an is full of errors. It says that Jesus did not die on the cross, it confuses Mary, mother of Jesus, with Miriam, sister of Moses, even saying that Mary has is the sister of Aaron and has a father named Imran (Amram).

The Islamic prophet Dhu al-Qurnayn (He of Two Horns) is traditionally identified with pagan king Alexander the Great. His name comes from coins depicting him as Zeus Ammon, a two-horned pagan god. Hardly a champion of monotheism, here! Dhu al-Qurnayn’s stories are also filled with information from Syrian legends like called the Alexander Romance, saying that the sun sets in a pool of murky water in the West.

There are also no prophecies predicting Muhammad in previous scriptures. Muslims also declare all previous scriptures corrupted to avoid this problem, but the Qur’an remains unproven. There is no historical evidence for any of this alleged corruption. The Qur’an also asks Christians (5:47) to judge by the Gospel to assess the Qur’an’s claims, but why would Allah ask us to judge by a corrupted scripture, or a scripture that has been lost? It’s stupid, and there’s no evidence of the “book” given to Jesus.

Muhammad was also a caravan-robbing polygamist pedophile. Jesus said to judge prophets by their fruits. Muhammad fails on all accounts. John, Jude, Paul and many others warn against false prophets that will come to lead men from the Gospel. Muhammad is one. Paul even warns of Satan disguising himself as an “angel of light”. Muhammad got his revelation from “Jibreel”, an entity claiming to be Gabriel giving him revelation contradicting all previous scripture. He never got the Qur’an from God. It was all from Jibreel.

The earliest generations of Christians—Paul, the Twelve, Ignatius of Antioch, Irenaeus, Polycarp, etc. all declared Jesus Christ to be divine, just like the OT teaches. It also denies historical facts such as crucifixion and baselessly declares the entire Bible ‘tahrif’ or corrupt—also refuted by manuscript evidence

>> No.20241685

>>20241669
k.
Then why Jesus instead of Buddha?

>> No.20241690

>>20241616
Dawkins gets to spend the rest of his life in Muslim controlled Britbongistan, the culture of his nation utterly annihilated and the hordes of NPCs he helped create attacking him for daring to deny that women can have penises.

If only he had listened

>> No.20241691

>>20241275
Author is a socialist.

>> No.20241700

>>20241685
Because it's easier and more contrarian nowadays to be a christlarper

>> No.20241781

>>20241685
>but what about my random cult
Irrelevant, philosophically hollow, inconsistent, self-defeating, and worthless.

>> No.20241784

>>20241781
this post applies perfectly to christianity lmao

>> No.20241788

>>20241784
How so?

>> No.20241791

>>20241781
Then why did God make it have hundreds of millions of followers instead of having his son take a trip over there and show them the light?

>> No.20241792

>>20241788
In the exact same way as it applies to Buddhism.

>> No.20241797

>>20241791
He did help Christians take over the globe and spread the Gospel. If people refuse to see the light, it's their choice.

>> No.20241798

>>20241792
How is Christianity philosophically hollow? It has the richest philosophical tradition among all religions. No, some arbitrary criticism doesn't apply to every religion because muh cultural relativism and subjective truth.

>> No.20241800
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20241800

So he believes that some guy in Roman times rose from the dead and has the gall to attack others for their delusions.

>> No.20241829

>>20241798
>How is Christianity philosophically hollow?
>muh good man died unjustly, he was so good and he suffered so much, be sad.
So much of Christian fervor is about pushing this sob story. Beyond that, much of it's philosophy is trying to make sense of absurd concepts like the trinity.

>> No.20241833

>>20241829
>filtered by the trinity
Christ, you ain’t a bright one are you?

>> No.20241842

>>20241833
Are you your own father?

>> No.20241843

>>20241829
>t. never read any theology or church fathers

>> No.20241845

>>20241833
So this guy who rose from the dead was actually God, the creator of all things, but also he was his son, and also he and God are both something called the Holy Spirit, who wrote the Bible, at the same time?

>> No.20241847

>>20241842
>god is a material substance
The concept of trinity was treated in neoplatonism too.

>> No.20241854
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20241854

>>20241847
Oh you mean the thing christers lifted from the wicked pagans so their system would be more than "just believe me bro, my sorceror said you're going to hell if you don't"

>> No.20241855

>>20241845
Ice, liquid water and steam are three different things but still are all H2O. Dumb fucker.

>> No.20241860

>>20241854
But you haven't read neoplatonists nor theologians. You're literally just a seething brainlet angry at God knows what.

>> No.20241866

>>20241855
Convoluted attempt to avoid violating the tenets of the old religion, which ban polytheism, in order to claim succession to it with a new charismatic founder

>> No.20241867

>>20241845
Also... Jesus who is also his dad, sits at his dad's side in Heaven and one day he's gonna come back down to Earth and resurrect ALL the people who've ever lived even if they've long since turned to dust, and he's gonna punish all the bad guys by sending them to Hell and also if you don't believe this you also go to Hell, is that right?

>> No.20241868

>>20241860
>you just haven't read x or you'd agree with my interpretation
doubtful on both accounts, sorry

>> No.20241871
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20241871

>>20241867

>> No.20241880

>>20241866
>H2O states are too convoluted for his brain
lmaoooo please make a lobotomy to see if you get smarter

>> No.20241882

>>20241871
So, that's incorrect? I'm just repeating what it says in the Athanasian Creed, which wikipedia tells me is
>Widely accepted among Western Christians, including the Roman Catholic Church as well as some Anglican churches, Lutheran churches, and ancient liturgical churches
If my interpretation is wrong, plz correct me.

>> No.20241886
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20241886

>>20241882

>> No.20241898

>>20241886
>coping this hard when confronted with Christian belief

>> No.20241903

>>20241855
>Ice, liquid water and steam are three different things but still are all H2O. Dumb fucker.
that's the modalism heresy, kek

>> No.20241906

>Read the Church Fathers
>Here's what Athanasius says
>NOOOOOOOO UR SOIJAK

>> No.20241908

>>20241669
>>20241685
Great posts.
>>20241781
Cope post.

>> No.20241911

>>20241880
It's literally only formulated in order to avoid running afoul of the religion of the "Old" Testament, where God is the only God and has no Son or Spirit—those would be "strange," i.e. foreign religious notions, like idols or icons for instance, as revered by Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, etc., and they couldn't have that or it would lead to assimilation and the end of Yahweh as an independent deity. But by modifying Greek ideas of God as a trinity of powers he can now be a trinity of consubstantial persons possesing those powers, which is nominally compliant with the rules handed down from Sinai but to a less devotional observer are no more than awkward attempts to square developments in religious sentiment and custom with the traditional system in order to claim a deeper antiquity. Christers will go so far as to say Moses knew of Jesus and that his system was taught to Plato! Because if that's not true, their half-Greek religion would violate the covenant!

>> No.20241923

>>20241903
No it isn’t. Modalism states that the modes are only different names for God with no much difference between them.

>> No.20241932

>>20241911
What a load of bullshit. Take your meds, seriously. You’re no different than those freaks who watch a video proving the earth is really flat and then start spitting that schizophrenic babble. Next are you going to say how Jesus took a lot of things from previous Gods and historical people like Alexander the Great? lol

>> No.20241933

>>20241798
>richest philosophical tradition among all religions
>500 years of scholastic turboautism
>"""""rich tradition"""""
btw, richest philosophical tradition would be judaism.

>> No.20241935

>>20241867
Not quite, hell and the dead all get cast into the lake of fire. I'll let someone else say whether there's a newer translation of Lake of fire.

>> No.20241941

>>20241933
Who's the Aquinas of judaism lol

>> No.20241942

>>20241685
Because they don't actually believe and are just LARPing. Really Christians dgaf about philosophy because they actually have faith.

>> No.20241944

>>20241932
>people who disbelieve my fairy tale larping are flat-earther tier
hilarious coming from someone who "converted" because he likes gothic architecture on Twitter

>> No.20241948

>>20241935
Cont. Come to think of it I don't remember anything suggesting the lake of fire would be eternal suffering and not just insta-crispied into nothing. Pretty sure only the faithful are resurrected. Anyone who has read the bible more recently let me. Know if I'm wrong here.

>> No.20241949

>>20241942
As Paul said to his fellow anti-Romans, philosophy is sinful pride.

>> No.20241953

>>20241833
the most common description of it is "it's a mystery" if you actually try to go further you are most likely gonna accidentally repeat some heretical viewpoint. The reason being that it was made up as a compromise hundreds of years after christ.

>> No.20241955

>>20241935
the Athanasian Creed says
re: baddies
>they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire
re: those who don't believe in the Trinity
>without doubt they shall perish everlastingly
Are the everlasting perishing and the everlasting fire connected, idk
as for the dead and Jesus
>he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies

>> No.20241959

>>20241942
>Really Christians dgaf about philosophy
>Except all the Christian philosophers, theologians and scientists.

Don’t forget that almost all noble prize winners were christians

>> No.20241963

>>20241923
No, it says they are 3 modes, hence the name, just like ice, liquid and steam are 3 modes of water

>> No.20241965

>>20241955
I'm aware, I just don't recall any actual scripture supporting it.

>> No.20241967

>>20241944
You literally posted a bunch of schizo conspiracy ramblings. It’s amazing how people like you manage to breathe.

>> No.20241972

>>20241959
Because smart people don't do something socially hostile like convert to a medievalist atavism that requires them to denounce all their contemporaries as satanic. You're doing "i made this" as per usual

>> No.20241975

>>20241959
That was meant to be real Christians. SwiftKey. Also
>>20241949
Is correct. Milton even showed philosophising to be one of the worst tortures of hell that fallen angels are subject to.
Regardless, what I'm saying is that the scribes and edgy 4chan larpers aren't Christians. They probably aren't even deists. As ever 4chan is just edgy contrarians.

>> No.20241978

>>20241967
>a bunch of schizo conspiracy ramblings
Is that how you would describe what happened on the road to Emmaus?

>> No.20241981

>my book is irrefutable :DDDD
>chegmage atheisds :DDD

>> No.20241984

>>20241963
You’re wrong. Modalism state that there are 3 modes of God which aren’t distinct and there is one God personhood. Ice water and steam obviously are distinct therefore aren’t similar to Modalism. I love proving people who think they know something wrong.

>> No.20242000

>>20241984
>[babbles in Greek:] see it's still one god and there are no strange gods before him because ice and steam are both water so Yahweh is Yeshuah

>> No.20242006

>>20241972
Atheist communist countries killed millions and millions of people throughout the 20th century, much more than any inquisition or religious war. Atheism never made a successful civilization and is doomed to failure as atheists can’t breed and kill themselves more than religious people. Your kind sickens me.

>> No.20242015

Water freezing or turning to steam doesn't make the idea that a man from Judea was actually God, the all-knowing creator of all things, albeit in another form, any less hard to believe.

>> No.20242021

>>20242006
The smart people you are laying claim to as Christians, were they alive today in the same social standing as they were then, would be members of the secular or atheist "elites" you feel a hatred for in accordance with your slave morals. They would not be part of an extremist religious revival promising the destruction of all authority that does not accord with your proto-communist pamplets about god's kingdom

>> No.20242022

>>20242015
I tried to show you a way which even a kid would understand the trinity but it seems like you’re too retarded to even make the necessary inferences. Just go ahead and believe that a random jew became the most important person I history only for pure random luck right? Fucking retard.

>> No.20242030

>>20242015
The argument was about trinity, try to keep up fedoraboy

>> No.20242032

>>20241941
Extremely easy question, Maimonides, Aquinas was directly inspired by him, a better counterpart to Aquinas can hardly be found in any other religion.

>> No.20242039

>>20242022
But you are the one who worships a random member of that religious community and believes it was their genius which revealed their god to all of mankind. And just so, this trinity doctrine had to be invented to retain the oneness of a God who is said to have had a son and a separate spirit given by that son to his followers

>> No.20242042

>>20242021
>The smart people you are laying claim to as Christians, were they alive today in the same social standing as they were then, would be members of the secular or atheist "elites"

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

So… this is the power of the atheist mind and arguments? Impressive.

>> No.20242049

>>20242030
That's clearly what I'm talking about. Can't you read?

>> No.20242052

>>20242042
Think about who runs the Nobel prize committee now and who is awarded. Do you think they are even half as "religious" as you posture as?

>> No.20242055

>>20241798
Christianity doesn't even have a phenomenological framework lmao

>> No.20242060
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20242060

Why do the Christians resort so quickly to insults? All I've done is restate the Athanasian Creed on the Trinity and then said I find it hard to believe. Learning today for the first time that water turns to ice hasn't made it any easier

>> No.20242067

>>20241948
So why is hell viewed as eternal suffering by most

>> No.20242076

>>20242022
>pure random luck
Why not? Reality is strange

>> No.20242078

>>20242060
Sometimes I wish I was going to hell just so I could first hand see people like you suffering in the hands of the Devil. Say hi to him for me.

>> No.20242085

>>20241275
There are no gods, so what's the point?

>> No.20242087

>>20242055
Abioity to perceive phenomenally - Spark of consciousness - soul - God

>> No.20242089

>>20242078
>I wish I was going to hell just so I could first hand see people like you suffering in the hands of the Devil
Why?

>> No.20242094

>>20242055
>t. read a wiki article on hegel earlier this week

>> No.20242097

>>20242067
Why is it viewed as a fiery place you're tortured by Satan when he's defined in scripture as eternally bound and hell as dark and cold? From the Catholic Church onward religious bodies have pretty much just made shit up on the spot and demanded people accept it as fact.

>> No.20242105

>>20242097
Cont - I say this as though Greco-Rome and Egypt were any different.

>> No.20242106

>>20242087
lol
>>20242094
>t. has only ever heard of the term "phenomenology" thanks to POS memes and doesn't even know what the word means

>> No.20242111

Reality according to atheists
>bro this priest created this big bang theory but you see, actually it was a random explosion and everything came from nothing into existence! and we’re pretty lucky of being alive and intelligent because it was just pure luck bro!

>> No.20242115

>>20242106
>lol
Excellent rebuttal of the entire field of trasncendentalism.

>> No.20242116

>>20242078
Calm down Ahmed.

>> No.20242117

>>20242097
I don't know. I'm asking if there is any actual, scriptural basis for the idea of eternal suffering or if it was added on later as a control mechanism for peasants or whatever

>> No.20242118

>>20242111
>It came from nothing.
You don't understand scientific or philosophical thinking. Read Heidegger and an intro to string theory.

>> No.20242123

>>20241663
>>20241629
>>20241690
>haha trans people and muslims and "npcs"
are these the "modern theological debates" as mentioned in >>20241321

>> No.20242125

>>20242117
Oh OK, I don't remember any from the bible I read (NIV). The bible is full of all sorts of stuff and a lot of common thinking is absent.

>> No.20242126

>>20242118
>You don't understand scientific or philosophical thinking.
Why?

>> No.20242128

>>20242115
>pretends to subscribe to transcendentalism but keeps arguing with strangers about religion on an anime website
>>20242118
>an intro to string theory.
Not him but any recommendations for someone with no physics background?

>> No.20242131

>>20242111
Reality according to Christian
>nothing is a coincidence, the universe was made just for me, I mean us to live in, the entirety of the cosmos revolves around us, I know this because I get really sad when I think of Jesus on the cross.

>> No.20242133

>>20242078
this must be the christian forgiveness i hear so much about
godbotherers are the most gimlet-eyed vindictive turds on the surface of the earth

>> No.20242142

>>20242126
Heidegger explained in detail why nothingness is not a valid category. Scientific thinking because "we came from nothing" isn't the view anyone actually involved in the field even suggests.

>> No.20242147

According to christians, this guy >>20242078 goes to heaven but a good, earnest man who just didn't felt swayed by the Jesus stuff will literally burn for eternity

>> No.20242148

>>20242128
>greentext in place of a response
Thought so.

>> No.20242153

>>20242142
>Heidegger explained in detail why nothingness is not a valid category.
So a retarded philosopher doesn’t even understand the concept of zero? That embarrassing.
>Scientific thinking because "we came from nothing" isn't the view anyone actually involved in the field even suggests.
What is the view of scientists then?

>> No.20242155

>>20242147
Nah, they'll be there too.
Matthew 8:
10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.(J) 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west,(K) and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.(L) 12 But the subjects of the kingdom(M) will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”(N)

>> No.20242157

>>20242148
>deflection instead of self-awareness
Thought so.
The saddest and most ironic part of this whole thing is that internet christians were the ones that turned me off from this religion definitively. Same for advaita

>> No.20242161

>>20242097
>>20242117
I pulled these from the KJV with a quick search
>As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
>And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
with the mentions of everlasting fires, torments and the devil, I think it's fairly close to how people perceive Hell

>> No.20242163

>>20242153
>retarded philosopher
Oh, you're a teenage troll. Never mind.

>> No.20242164

>>20242111
>everything came from nothing into existence!
This is your own doctrine as per Genesis, and was advanced by the church fathers against the Greek notion of an eternal universe. That your god is so unbelievable and people have merely kept the ex nihilo portion after dumping him is the fault of their Christian education and the very thing Nietzsche warns about

>> No.20242165

Atheism did Christianity a favor with the flash in the pan that was the early 2000s pulling it in the spotlight for a bit. I feel nothing when I see these debates anymore. Very low energy. Christians, your best bet is not to bicker online it doesn’t mean anything when both sides are subjugated to outside ideology. Shilling school choice is the only thing that can have a material impact. Maybe if that gets pushed enough people will be agitated enough to care again.

>> No.20242172

>>20242157
You're deflecting. You asked for a phenomenological framework and one was provided. You've responded with greentext. Outed as a pseud.

>> No.20242173
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20242173

>>20241280
>>20241302
>>20241317
>Fedoracucks acting so defensive now that their beliefs are being questioned.

>> No.20242176

>>20242155
>isn't even fazed by the idea that a good man who just didn't believe would be tortured forever
Christians are fucking unhinged
>>20242161
The furnace could just imply obliteration, and everlasting fire means the fire is eternal (so the punishment is definitive) but doesn't necessarily mean there is no end to the experience of it. I might be stretching though

>> No.20242178

>>20241275
It really is disgusting how this board has been taken over by Reddit atheists who will deny even the most basic logic in-order to maintain their materialist worldview.

>> No.20242179

>>20242147
>all christians are protestants
The atheist brain at work

>> No.20242180

huh i will give a quick reason: the major fuck up by the atheists is that they have created laws which they claim govern the cosmos. it turns out it a utter retarded stance.

But first let me digress super quickly.
I am amazed how atheists have turned genes into the new god. Make me laff when they say their dad was a fish too.
Guess which theory is true according to them

theory 1 : humans descent from humans, which is verified at every human birth

theory 2: humans descent from a fish, then a monkey, yet it was never observed and fish today dont become monkeys and monkeys today dont become humans, just trust me bro

hhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Ho and btw, they did the same with their bigbang:
you believe a uncaused bigbang with the size of rice grain created the whole universe, then your granddaddy was a fish, then you daddy was an ape.

yes the bigbang is purely theoretical. nobody ever experienced a bigbang and nobody did a bigbang in a controlled lab.

bigbang= claim that there is a universe [placeholder for everything, universe was never observed in a lab]+claim that universe is expanding+claim of conservation of energy+reversing time in some mathematical model

there is a cause for the bigbang or there isnt. so far science says there is not, ie bigbang= god

So to reformulate this part.Atheists have replaced God with The bigbang. Atheists have never observed a bigbang, they have never replicated it, and yet they said it existed. Christians never witnessed God,and yet they say God exists. The best part is that each one of those God and Bigbang leads to incoherent views....

>> No.20242182

>>20242161
Neither of these categorically suggest that the torture, rather than the lake of fire itself are eternal.

>> No.20242183

>>20242147
He is lacking the loving-kindness which is essential to the Christian way of life and thereby directly disobeying the New Commandment. I can't say what would happen to such a person if he were to die right now. Meanwhile, that good unbeliever, will have the same fate as the virtuous pagans.

>> No.20242184

>>20242180

>first there was nothing
>then suddenly, out of this nothingness, everything came to exist. btw this is against all laws of physics which we so adore, as it breaks the conservation of energy and the principle of causality
>then from this initial universe which was just tiny subatomic particles, in a few billions years stars and planets and galaxies were created somehow
>then one on of these planets, earth, somehow, out of a bunch of random molecules in a primordial soup, life started, actual living beings came to be created from this molecules
>then a few billions years after that, through evolution, these primal living beings became sentient, advanced creatures capable of contemplating their own existence

Now the second point.
Reminder that if you believe in scientific realism, you literally believe that there is an immaterial symmetry group SU(3)×SU(2)×U(1)× P(1,3) living outside the universe and yet governing every interaction in the material universe without even being able to explain how immaterial rules act on matter.

The problem with science is that scientific realism is completely retarded. Bible level of retardation. According to science, reality is composed by mathematical objects. Nobody has ever witnessed those immaterial mathematical constructs.
It’s peak atheist midwitism . The main problem with determinism and science is that they use ‘’rules’’ and those ‘’rules’’ 1/ are not subject to determinism 2/ don’t live in the universe 3/ nobody knows where they come from 4/ no atheist is able to explain how a material system is acted upon by immaterial rules
5/in labs, all the rules are followed not deterministically, but statistically at best

Atheists are so stupid that they deserve to be depressed and commit suicide out of their own-making nihilism.

>> No.20242186

>>20242176
That's literally the opposite of the inference of what I posted. It's saying there will be Christians in hell and non believers in heaven.

>> No.20242187

>>20242163
I mean, what am I supposed to say? The concept of zero was invented and used for like a thousand year before Heidegger and then he comes and say it isn’t valid? Do you know we still use 0 in math?

>> No.20242189

>>20241949
>believe me and don't think about it

>> No.20242190

>>20242182
There's also this
>these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal
I'm not the Christian here btw, not sure why I'm doing their homework

>> No.20242191

>>20242180
>>20242184
how do you manage to be actually this stupid and yet operate a computer

>> No.20242193

>>20242184
Western atheism is just a heresy of Christianity, which is why it makes all the same dumb assumptions about a first cause

>> No.20242194

>>20242180
Evolutionary theory is just a theory that makes sense, matching the evidence we have. Also the Christian God doesn't lead to incoherent views. What's your metaphysics?

>> No.20242196

Atheists
>have lower birth rates than christians
>have higher depression rates than christians
>have higher suicide rates than christians

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>> No.20242199

>>20242190
Possibly stretching but its possible the everlasting punishment is not being resurrected and sent to heaven.

>> No.20242200

>>20242193
What's your alternative to the first cause?

>> No.20242201

Why is rising from the dead so special?
>it represents XYZ
So why bother having 1 guy rise from the dead instead of letting something cooler and actually provable happen, like the whole sky of the world just become Gods face or something. Christianity does way too many specific and just barely verifiable things for something so transcendental and omniscient.

>> No.20242202

>>20242193
This. Atheists, for the most part, are just Christians that don't go to churchand just act like Christians without thinking about it too much.

>> No.20242203

>>20242179
Stop lying!
We've already established that the Athanasian Creed, adopted by most Christians in the West, says that unless you believe in the trinity you go to Hell. "Except a man believe truly and firmly", the Trinity, "he cannot be saved".

>> No.20242208

>>20242203
Being accepted by modt Christians doesn't mean its supported by scripture. Most Christians agree the devil has horns but that doesn't make it valid.

>> No.20242209

>>20242178
>this board has been taken over by Reddit atheists
Are you for real? /lit/ has an overwhelming number of tradlarpers, look at the catalog

>> No.20242210

>>20242196
Don't all of those also describe Russians, who are nominally the beacon of Trve Christianity

>> No.20242214

Christianity is annihilationistic and therefore false
>but not if you're a good guy
still annihilationist.

>> No.20242215

>>20242179
I'm not an atheist. But cope harder.

>> No.20242216
File: 105 KB, 720x960, 1629165785151.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
20242216

>>20242200
Eternal universe

>> No.20242219

>>20242209
Tradlarpers are atheists too, they just pretend not to be.

>> No.20242220

>>20242208
>Being accepted by modt Christians doesn't mean its supported by scripture
Sure you can make that argument. But I'm responding to someone implying only Protestants believe what's stated above, which is simply untrue.

>> No.20242221

>>20242183
>that good unbeliever, will have the same fate as the virtuous pagans.
Says who? And what fate is that? I thought unbelievers got the lake of fire no matter what

>> No.20242225

>>20241959
Hard scientists are becoming less Christian over time, this is fact. The reality is, Christianity is good at gaslighting and indoctrination from an early age and the "formality" and approval given to the Church and it's cultural impact is what made it remain in people's minds so long

>> No.20242227

>>20242216
>there's no beginning
Unintuitive explanation based on nothing. At least first cause is intuitive, so I go with that in lieu of anything else.

>> No.20242228

>>20242186
>non believers in heaven.
Doesn't that go against every single branch of Christianity? Christianity is about believing in jesus and whatnot

>> No.20242231

>>20242184
I'm interested, what is your own model? Any books you could recommend?

>> No.20242232

>>20242196
Also
>Do worse than christians in treatments for terminal diseases
>Are more likely to abort their babies than christians
>Are more likely to divorce than christians

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>> No.20242235

>>20242176
>>isn't even fazed by the idea that a good man who just didn't believe would be tortured forever
>baww why aren't Christians questioning the literal teachings of God?
Atheists are such crybabies they'll beg for pity on the internet because they don't want to go to the church

>> No.20242237

>>20242225
>Christianity is good at gaslighting and indoctrination
How do I break the conditioning, please tell me, I want to stop bothering my mind with "what if it's true"
I wish I could be dumb enough to be an atheist materialist so I wouldn't have this problem

>> No.20242239

>>20242228
Nope. Romans 2:12-16 confirms that there will be non - Christians in heaven. At least according to Paul.

>> No.20242240

Who made God
>he was always
ok so why cant people always have been ?

Also is god conscious like you and me? What does he see when he looks or thinks?

>> No.20242241

>>20242172
You provided fuck all. Cope!

>> No.20242243

>>20242241
Nice concession.

>> No.20242244

>>20242241
>fuck
>cope
You have memed your brain into mush. I won't be responding again.

>> No.20242245

>>20242128
>any recommendations for someone with no physics background?
Please respond

>> No.20242246

>>20242227
>uncaused cause
Unituitive explanation based on nothing. At least everything being caused by other things is intuitive, so I go with that in lieu of anything else.

>> No.20242248

>>20242196
that's just because atheism is corrolated with wealth.

>> No.20242249

>>20242184
That’s just the mathematical formulation of the standard model and which itself is considered an approximation anyway, it’s a heuristic and nothing more than that and it doesn’t claim to be, this trait is implicit in science from the very start anyway.

>> No.20242251

>>20242243
>>20242244
Absolutely seething.
>I won't be responding again
I accept your admission of utter defeat, pseud.

>> No.20242253

>>20242245
With no physics background you're relegated to YouTube videos. There's plenty of pop-Sci books but they're generally not suitable for anyone with no knowledge.
https://youtu.be/Da-2h2B4faU

>> No.20242255

>>20242227
>Unintuitive explanation based on nothing
As opposed to "there was literally NOTHING and then a guy who came from NOWHERE made SOMETHING"? Is that really so intuitive and based upon anything? Has anything ever been analyzed all the way back to an origin that was not mere conjecture settled upon due to intellectual exhaustion, i.e. that you cannot or do not wish to imagine or analyze a process of becoming any further than you presently have? Is that not the reason the answer to the naturally asked question of "who made god?" is "s-shut up!!"

>> No.20242262

>>20242237
Realize that all of that, whether it feels like it's in your head or in some esoteric voice from beyond reaching into (You), has arisen from your actions and experience (which includes thoughts and feelings, all things you've done and acted upon). Even if they seem passive and subtle now, you can still relax, ponder on them and perform the act of discerning what is and isn't good, probable or true. Then you can pick up a better philosophical framework off your own volition.
>I wish I could be dumb enough to be an atheist materialist so I wouldn't have this problem
You would still be as bad as an indoctrinated Christian

>> No.20242263

>>20242245
the elegant universe was a decent read, tho it may be slighlty outdated.
Honestly be warned that it is simply good to fufill your curousity, you won't learn anything applicable to your life learning dumbed down theoritical physics.

>> No.20242267

>>20242253
Well I stopped when it started getting mildly difficult, I think it was PDEs in classical mechanics and intro to electrodynamics but it was a long time ago and I barely remember anything. So I'm not scientifically illiterate but extremely rusty especially in math

>> No.20242270

>>20242263
Thanks.

>> No.20242272

>>20242235
>the literal teachings of God
this only applies if "you trust the bible!!!" which is what you should, rationally, consider as untrue when trying to formulate reasons as to why it should be followed. Otherwise you are behaving irrationally.

>> No.20242273

>>20241959
>Don’t forget that almost all noble prize winners were christians
Were they actually believers?

>> No.20242278

>>20242246
>>uncaused cause
Nothing unintuitive about something supernatural being uncaused. Everything natural still has a cause, so your response doesn't make sense:
>At least everything being caused by other things is intuitive
Yes, everything natural still has a cause. Only you posit some kind of unexplained eternity. I only assume that we can attribute causation to natural things, so there's nothing unintuitive abou expecting different rules for supernatural entities. All cultures ever assumed supernatural beings, so yes, it's demonstratively intuitive.
>>20242255
>a guy
A God. Didn't read further.

>> No.20242282

>>20242272
Berkeley already did this in Alciphron at great lengths. Not everyone is as uneducated as you.

>> No.20242284

>>20242262
>has arisen from your actions and experience
The main reason is that I'm naturally neurotic and this kind of worst case scenario is constantly at the back of my mind.
I'm not a very rational kind of person so I need something that appeals to my deeper emotions, I guess. Logically deconstructing my thought process doesn't really help me, I feel like I need a more visceral experience that would make my previous worries seem ridiculous

>> No.20242287

>>20242245
There is no metaphysical application or metacognition in modern physics or biology or mathematics. If you want to study them, study them for the sake of expanding your knowledge, capabilities and worldview.

>> No.20242292

>>20242278
>Nothing unintuitive about something supernatural being uncaused.
"it doesn't count because I say so"
kek
An infinite universe requires no such mental gymnastics. You btfod yourself then accuse me of the very thing you are guilty of, what an absolute retard
>unexplained eternity
There's no issue. Everything has a cause so it goes back endlessly. No problem

>> No.20242294

Okay cool, where's your evidence for your god?

>> No.20242296

>>20242284
You're not eternally cursed at being neurotic in a one way deterministic relationship with your perceived mind my dude. Go read some (actual) introductory Buddhist texts like What the Buddha Taught, then, just as you would practice your knowledge in physics by doing equations or whatever, do vipassana meditation and realize the nature of the mental pattern that's tormenting you.

>> No.20242297

>>20242278
>Nothing unintuitive about something supernatural being uncaused
it is highly unintuitive to me, it isn't to you because you have been raised in a certain environement. For most of my life I just took the big bang for granted because I was told about it from an early age.

>> No.20242298

>>20242292
I already demonstrated that it's intuitive by applealing to all cultures that had a notion of supernatural beings. You're just upset because your infinitude cannot be explained by your religion (materialism).

>> No.20242299

>>20242278
>A God. Didn't read further.
So your argument for a first cause is that God exists and therefore there is a first cause? That does nothing to prove either

>> No.20242304

>>20242282
Where? Because all the stuff I'm seeing is easily disproved.

>> No.20242306

>>20242297
What caused the Big Bang?

>> No.20242307

>>20242298
>all cultures that had a notion of supernatural beings
All the cool kids are jumping off a bridge too

>> No.20242308

>>20242298
>by applealing to all cultures
Most cultures did not have an acausal conception of gods. Concession accepted
>materialism
Wrong, try again and seethe harder pseud

>> No.20242310

>>20242278
Other poster, why is intuition relevant?

>> No.20242315

>>20242304
In the book. Dialgoues 5 and 6 are specifically concerned with Christianity, but the previous chapters are concerned with a deity in general.

>> No.20242316

>>20242297
The bing bong is literally just the Christian notion of creation with God deleted from it. Ex nihilo.

>> No.20242317

>>20242298
This is not reasonable, the debate is about your claims being unreasonable and you're not putting out anything to make it seem reasonable.

>> No.20242318

>>20241275
>Where are the rational proofs of divinity?
>where are the faith based arguments of materialism?
Every fucking time. Why bother?

>> No.20242322

>>20242296
I read a few Buddhist texts. When it comes to comparing them to abrahamism, they make more sense to me on pretty much every single point but the idea of faith in Christianity is a convenient bypass to all of this. "Even if it makes sense, your reason is fallen, it's all demonic deception". I know it's retarded but the possibility remains which is enough to bother me.

>> No.20242323

>>20242308
>Most cultures did not have an acausal conception of gods.
They did though. You're just ignorant.

>> No.20242327

>>20242306
No idea, what caused God?

>> No.20242328

>>20242323
>source: dude trust me
Concession status: accepted.

>> No.20242332

>>20242316
It isn't. TBBT says nothing about the origins of matter, in fact its implied directly in the theory that it isn't created ex nihilo as the matter had to exist. As people have said - string theory and LQG. Heidegger will help your understanding of why nothingness is only something in the minds of humans.

>> No.20242333

>>20242317
What's unreasonable? That our world has a beginning? Everything in this world that you know of has a beginning, so you're the one who has to demonstrate that your claim is reasonable.

>> No.20242334

>>20242318
Hart answers these. Read the fucking book

>> No.20242335

>>20242297
What's always been most intuitive to me (came up with it myself before reading about it actually) was a continuous cycle of creation and destruction. Later learned the pajeets has names for that and that there were theories in physics about it; contraction and expansion, on and on, like breathing

>> No.20242340

>>20242327
Himself.

>> No.20242342

>>20242322
But that idea of faith is still stemming from your mind, as is the anxiety and pressure you feel, unless you believe it's YHWH telling you to believe by whispering in your soul. There are more complicated notions and mechanisms of mind that need to be observed, done so by practice (samatha and vipassana) which are not some impossible spiritual goal requiring you to lift mountains with your mind, you can probably succeed in resolving your issue indefinitely over a few weeks.

>> No.20242345

>>20242333
>Everything in this world that you know of has a beginning
Right, so positing some arbitrary beginning-less cause is nonsensical.
>b-but it doesn't count because it's supernatural!
Ascribing arbitrary properties to your argument to try and make it exempt from scrutiny does not work. Infinitychads win again

>> No.20242348

>>20242333
Your logic is unreasonable, your claims are not properly supported by anything. You're not debating well at all.

>> No.20242351

>>20242340
And why can't the universe cause itself, since selfcausation is apparently possible?

>> No.20242354

>>20242334
>Read this bullshit anti-Dawkins book nobody gives a fuck about
No.

>> No.20242356

>>20242340
So why can't each individual have done this too?

>> No.20242358

>>20242351
Because the universe is material and everything material has a cause. The oly reasonable explanation is that there's a first cause which thus must be immaterial. This is irrefutable.

>> No.20242361

>>20242332
>in fact its implied directly in the theory that it isn't created ex nihilo as the matter had to exist
Interesting, I only know of the theory through osmosis so if it does actually uphold matter as eternal that would be an improvement over having a sorceror create something from nothing

>> No.20242363

>>20242358
>everything material has a cause
Prove it.

>> No.20242367

>>20242342
Do you mean that by keeping a consistent meditation practice I will completely stop having these invasive thoughts about how all my beliefs could be wrong because muh mysterious ways and whatever?
I want to shift everything, go from a thought process of "yeah this makes sense but what if the christian fear tactics are right" to immediately disregarding these fear tactics much like I would disregard any other cultish worldview

>> No.20242369

>>20242358
>arbitrary mind-matter dualism
Also most thoughts and feelings arise from causes as well. It's called codependent origination.

>> No.20242370

>>20242358
This is schizophrenic

>> No.20242374

>>20242358
what do you define as meterial? By what metric is the fabric of space time material?

>> No.20242375

>>20242358
You do realize that urrefutable claims are completely meaningless, right? If you can't test your claim, it provides zero information

>> No.20242376

>>20242363
If you argue against this, you reject science and any norm to the universe as anything arbitrary could happen at any time. Yet you still assume cause in everything that you do, so your argument is self-defeating.

>> No.20242378

>>20242358
>Because the universe is material and everything material has a cause
So why can't it go on and on forever instead of positing an immaterial thing that's conveniently exempt from all rules and that you've never observed?

>> No.20242384

>>20242376
What would falsify your claim?

>> No.20242386
File: 215 KB, 1000x1478, 1594938485030.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
20242386

>>20242375
>>20242374
>>20242370
>>20242369
>>20242363
>>20242378
QED. Atheists go full meltdown when their worldview is demolished.

>> No.20242389

>>20242376
>reject science
Again - prove that it is the scientific view that matter has a first cause.

>> No.20242390

>>20242367
Yes. The process of samatha is to calm and steady the mind, and vipssana is to discern things based on that steady and calm mind. It's not some hard Tibetan esoteric practice, you should be able to notice it's effects in some facet of your mind fairly quickly.
Do watch out for new age thought and secularized western Buddhism which isn't actually Buddhist practice, like secular mindfulness practice.

>> No.20242394

>>20242386
>no argument
Concession accepted

>> No.20242399

>>20242386
>I won because I say so

Lolno. What falsifies your claim?

>> No.20242400

>>20242354
You know the publishers picked the title and Hart barely even mentions Dawkins or Atheism in the book right? Most of it is an overview of historical Christian thought

>> No.20242403

>>20242384
A universe without logos.

>> No.20242404

>>20242376
Assuming cause and effect is not the same as assuming there is some supra-causal entity that has no cause of its own yet still produces an effect. In fact these are quite incompatible only sustained by sophistry

>> No.20242405

>>20242386
>I don't understand the scientific thought regarding the origin of the universe so I'll just pretend I wona 4chan debate

>> No.20242408

Universe loop, courtesy of Penrose, nobel prize winner. It’s just a hypothetical. Very paraphrased but general gist:
>the universe experiences heat death, all matter gets absorbed by black holes which get hawking radiated away
>eventually nothing but photons remain
>photons experience no time, so from their perspective traversing the universe is instantaneous.
>since therefore nothing in the universe experiences its size anymore, its size is identical to an infinitesimal universe
>same conditions as Big Bang
>Big Bang

>> No.20242410

>>20241275
You have to realize an outspoken atheist, the kind you're going to spend your time arguing with, won't for a second seriously consider anything you say.

>> No.20242411

>>20242403
And how does one test this? That's what I'm trying to get at. How can someone independently test whether your claim about reality isn't actually false?

>> No.20242414

>>20242390
What's the best resource for building a vipassana + samatha (isn't this what the Buddha called satipatthana?) practice? I'm not very good at meditation but I'm willing to try my best if it will make these stupid thoughts go away forever.

>> No.20242419

>>20242400
>fashionable opponents
Yeah, I'm sure it's of great value and not just physical clickbait.

>> No.20242420

>>20242410
And why do you think that is?

>> No.20242425

>>20242410
Same thing works in reverse. People don't like their faith being challenged.

>> No.20242428

>>20242411
However you want. Do any experiments you wish, and you'll find out that the universe has order.

>> No.20242432

>>20241275
Christian thought is ultimately all based on the Bible being correct and a work of God. Non Christians will not agree. There will never be any overlap.
>its allegorical
Then so is hell.

>> No.20242439

>>20242420
because the fundamental premise of the worldview are absurd to them.

>> No.20242449

>>20242414
the redpill is the ajhanbrajm teaching for monks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtnuVoJXWhM&list=PLQ_Y6m62B_MVZVGIzfjqrpoUmszVMcxWV

the soft pill is the retreat for lay people, so watch the other ones here (watch the QA too)
https://www.youtube.com/c/AjahnBrahmRetreats2011-15BSWAMedia/playlists

for sati
https://bswa.org/teaching/sn-47-satipatthana-samyutta-establishment-of-mindfulness-with-ajahn-brahm/

>> No.20242450

>>20242117
The latter
>>>/his/13177937

>> No.20242452

>>20242449
Thank you anon. This is the best meditation method for inner peace then (better than Metta or Shikantaza?)

>> No.20242460

>>20242414
I think Alan Wallace Attention Revolution is a nice book, even if a bit overbearing with the religious aspects that might put some people off, the guy has a pretty good history compared to most though, even working as the Dalai Lama's translator for a while.

>> No.20242464

>>20242428
That has nothing to do with your claim, and how we can test this claim.

This also points out the core problem with religious philosophy, which is that it asserts what it needs to demonstrate. Philosophy is about showing why something is true, not telling people that it is true and then never actually demonstrating why we're supposed to accept it as true.

Show, don't tell. Now, show me why what you're claiming about reality is true, and not false. Define the terms of your claim, state in advance in which case your claim is false, and demonstrate that it isn't justifiable to state that your claim has reached this false state

>> No.20242470

>>20242460
Much appreciated. Looking for a barebones and straight to the point guide for tangible results for now, I'll look into the spirituality itself later, for now I need to do away with the dogma that's eating at me

>> No.20242473

>>20242452
metta is always good
here is the typical video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4Iwzy7kX1s

I think metta is too weak for a insight, but it's very useful for demented people, because they jsut are sad or bummed out all the time lol

shikantaza is zen and zen is not buddhism in the first place, and buddhism is always better than any chinese bastardization of buddhism yes

start by the redpill videos to know the general framework, then move on to a set of videos of a retreat for lay people

try to download videos with jdownloader
https://github.com/EIGHTFINITE/jdownloader-portable/archive/refs/heads/master.zip

>> No.20242485

>>20242473
What is zen if not buddhism?
Alright I'll take a look at those

>> No.20242498

>>20242485
"zen" is just a transliteration of "jhana/dhyana" and ultimately just another way of reading the satipathhanna sutta(s)—one could meditate on any object to come to know equipose and there isn't some exclusivity to this idea that has been preserved in Thailand or Sri Lanka but never anywhere else

>> No.20242507

>>20242485
Sectarianism between higher meanings in Theravada, Mahayana and other schools within those are pretty major in areas that shouldn't matter to you in the next 3 years at least. Theravada is your more standard Buddhism, Mahayana has beliefs like storehouse consciousness and the need for Arhants to achieve Buddhahood and spread wisdom like the Buddha did instead of just exiting Samsara, Tibetans have some dope practices that they can supposedly use to remember past lives and change body temperature easily.
For yourself, if the practice or theory brings you dukkha, and you have no proof in acting upon it as if it were true, it is unskilled to keep following it.

>> No.20242548

>>20241275
>Christians still claiming they're persecuted
These people are mentally ill.

>> No.20242650

>>20242196
>>20242232
lol christians are utter cunts

>> No.20242941

>>20242464
What?