/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.2023800]

Alright, /lit/. You've got me interested in learning how to tell an appealing story. would you like to help me? here is a rough beginning, fraught with imperfections and things i am uncertain about

---

Politely, tentatively, Rodolfo held up a finger.

"One moment," he said to his guest, "I'll be right back, then you can keep telling me your story." He left the living room for the kitchen and sent a text to his next door neighbor: Call the police. There is a madman in my house.

He returned, smiling, with a pitcher of water and a glass for the young gentleman on his sofa. "All right, please continue--Timón, is it?"

"Teemo, you know, short for Timothy? It doesn't matter, I made it up. You can call me anything." He took a sip of water and with a shaking hand set his glass on the coffee table. He glanced out the window to the street, gray in the morning light. The truth would be out there, and it would be gone soon--if it wasn't already gone, or if it was ever there. But he couldn't leave Rodolfo without an explanation. It would be worth it, he thought, to miss the evidence in the street, if he could just explain. This would be his only chance.

"I'm sorry if this is confusing, Rodolfo. It's hard to get it all straight, I never planned to tell you any of this, and I'm awful at thinking on my feet," the corner Teemo's mouth quirked up and for a moment he seemed on the verge of laughter, but he subdued himself. "The beginning's too long to start with, and the end makes no sense without the middle, so we have to start in medias res. Is that alright?"

"Of course. Of course it's alright. Anything you like, Teemo."

"Did you ever notice a snail on your bedroom window?"

"Er, yes, all the time. Lots of them."

"I mean, a particularly ugly one?"

"I never, uh, I never studied them individually. Sorry. Um."

[Anonymous No.2023808]

>>2023800
"It's okay. Don't apologize," Teemo paused to marshal his thoughts, then tried another angle. "There is a disease that affects some snails, makes their bodies swell up underneath the shell. They can hardly retract their bodies back in, and the shell eventually begins to crack and rot. It's very painful. Snail doctors have no way of treating the disease, and humans know virtually nothing about it. I think it's congenital. You know, like a birth defect?"

Rodolfo nodded.

Teemo picked at the cuffs of his sleeves. His skin felt incredibly dry all over and he wanted to draw his entire body into his button-up shirt.

"I was looking for a cure, originally. I grew up without any friends or much hope of a future, so I spent alot of time reading. I taught myself to read. Not in that order. I learned to read and then I read a lot of books and the books taught me everything about people, but not much about snails. That was alright. It passed the time even if I couldn't find a cure. I gave up on that pretty early on, anyway. I just wanted to learn more things about you."

Teemo noticed Rodolfo's posture stiffen and his cheeks flushed.
"Oh, no, no, I'm sorry, not you specifically, Rodolfo, that came out wrong. You, as in people." He squirmed and tried to think of what to say next, but the rising sun outside and the constant thumping of his heart pervaded his senses and made him ever-conscious of the passage of time. He couldn't keep evading the truth or this whole conversation would be meaningless. Out with it, then.

[Anonymous No.2023812]

>>2023808
"I watched you. I was just curious about people, and you were nearby. I'd crawl up the side of your house during the day and stick myself to your window in the evening, then crawl down when you went to bed. Sometimes I'd come back to watch you wake up. It hurt my shell, but I couldn't stop myself!" He pressed the heels of his palms to his eyes and bent foreward in despair. "I was so lonely, I thought of you like a friend. And I wanted to be like you. Like a man. Not like," he waved one hand over his shoulder, indicating his back, "not like a snail, which I was at the time. And a sick one. I wanted to die." He fixed Rodolfo with his misery-filled gaze. "My body is in front of your driveway. I killed myself there. Then I woke up like this."

[Anonymous No.2023815]

>>2023812
Snails do not have literature. They can read it, and comprehend it, but few have ever had occasion to do so. A culture of snail literature simply never developed. The inability to hold a pen or to type might also be a factor, but not a big one, because snails often doodle with their slime. They could write with it, easily, but they never do. It's just as well, because if snails did have literature it would be extremely tedious reading. Snails have a way of telling a story that is completely unsatisfactory to most audiences, snail and human alike. Big beginnings, climaxes, and meaningful endings are all foreign concepts to the snail; he will often begin a story at an arbitrary point somewhere in the middle and then wander round and round this point, from which his narration grows increasingly distant. It takes forever and the ending can rarely be related back to the beginning. Clams are similar to snails in this regard. As a grain of sand lodges itself in the clam's soft tissue and grows into a pearl, so an idea disturbs the clam's tongue into speaking all around it, building it up for no apparent reason but to clothe it in beauty and to spit it out again when it's gotten too complex...Anyway, what I'm trying to say is, Teemo had no hope of explaining his extraordinary situation briefly and coherently enough to stave off the police and and the doctors and to win Rodolfo's love. Therefore, as the police arrive and lead Teemo out of Rodolfo's living room and into the police car, I will take over and attempt to put his story to rights.
---

that's all. i worry especially about that last paragraph, i fear it's hokey as hell

[Anonymous No.2023822]

I'm not sure how I feel about the idea of your story. I mean, it's different in it's own way, absurd, but...I don't know.

Your actual writing skills seem prety good though, and I'm sure you'll come up with some good work.

[Anonymous No.2023840]

>>2023822
>I'm not sure how I feel about the idea of your story. I mean, it's different in it's own way, absurd, but...I don't know.

Haha, that's just fine. thank you for taking the time to read it.

>Your actual writing skills seem prety good though, and I'm sure you'll come up with some good work.

Wow, thank you. I find my writing bland and clumsy, but I hope that will disappear with practice.

Here's a fragment that i will likely toss out as i revise. I'm posting it because I might as well provide y'all with more material to draw from in giving me advice:

---

How had Teemo become a guest in Rodolfo's house, if he was clearly a madman? Simple. He woke up already inside, Rodolfo found him when he came upstairs, and neither of them knew what to do about it. It was a frightening encounter for both men. Teemo was suffering from a sort of reversed Gregor Samsa situation, or a situation very close to that of The Little Mermaid, but he'd read neither of those stories. He faintly recognized a connection to the story of Pinocchio, but it didn't help. He was rudderless.

[Anonymous No.2023879]

Your idea is damn good. I like it. I have never read anything on /lit/ where the idea was good, and I participate in a lot of these threads.

Your inexperience shows. Your introduction is much, much too short. This is the introduction to a longer work, right? It relies too heavily on dialogue. You have no setting whatsoever besides that it is morning, which you might want to handle more delicately since it's an ambient metaphor for the snail's rebirth as a human.

You handle the tone of Teemo's passages all right, but in terms of their actual construction they leave much to be desired. And Rodolfos' dialogue is bad. You're trying to express his feelings through 'uh' and 'er' and it's not going to fucking work, okay? You need to practice creating a mood and a setting. This is severely lacking in those regards.

I didn't think the last paragraph was hokey. It was ingenious. You get a little sloppy with it, but during the eventual and inevitable rewriting I'm sure that can be corrected. You'll see what's wrong with it after you have some distance/more advice from us.

The corollary you draw between snail stories in the last paragraph and how Teemo told his story is fine as an idea, but you fail miserably at it. Teemo's dialogue isn't enough. He needs more; you need to think harder about how he's going to tell his story and what he's going to say. Much harder. That's what the entire introduction of the story depends upon.

Rodolfo's so flat. He isn't even a character. He's just a name. There is nothing identifiable in him. You did absolutely no work on characterizing him here. I know that you will very likely be going into much greater depth with him when you cover Teemo's watching, but he needs to be established as a character right from the beginning.

[Anonymous No.2023880]

>>2023879
Some of your text and dialogue seems stilted. Timon? Seriously. What are you doing with that. I get it, he's nervous and doesn't care particularly about this crazy man in his house. But come on. Timon? It's cool if they live in a place where that's a more common name, though. I don't know where this is set, so...

Also, people don't just have their neighbors in their phones. So if they're friends beyond neighborly niceties and they will be a character in the story, introduce them as the friend and not the neighbor. Of course, if all they are is a neighbor with whom Rodolfo is cordial (that is, if their primary role in the story is as The Neighbor) then you might want to reevaluate the text. He could always call them himself, you know. Teemo doesn't seem particularly scary, so I don't think he'd be necessarily too scared to chance it.

The "I grew up without friends" dialogue is so bad. What the fuck are you doing. I know I'm all over the place with this, but honestly. Talk about careless. The characterization for Teemo is good, at least in idea. I see what you're going for with him and you're not far off from it (certainly closer to it than you are with Rodolfo) but he is so damn... fuck, you know what I mean.

Think about it some more. When you're ready, I recommend you don't look at what you've written and then write it again. Compare the two, see what changed and what didn't. You need some practice writing, but your idea is worth pursuing.

[Anonymous No.2023890]

>>2023840
Me again.

The 'simple' is bad, take it out. Consider structural revision of the following sentence. Remove the Gregor ref because The Little Mermaid and Pinocchio suit the tone much better. It's mildly humorous, but still serious. Entertaining.

[Anonymous No.2023908]

Just curious where you got the name Rodolfo, I don't hear it that often and it's my dad's name.

[Anonymous No.2023909]

>>2023879
>>2023880
lol, I love your critique, and it's exactly the sort of advice I need. thank you so much.

I feel the same way about the dialogue, it's really irritating to me.

>You're trying to express his feelings through 'uh' and 'er' and it's not going to fucking work, okay?

hahaha yes I know. I was trying to be brief, and avoid describing his motions too much, and it came out terribly.

The reason Rodolfo isn't calling the police himself will be explained, but I'll likely scrap it anyway and change up their situation a bit.

I am total balls at describing settings. "He glanced out the window to the street, gray in the morning light." that sentence (among others) pissed me off so much that i just gave up and left it as it was. how would you suggest describing the setting without going overboard?

>I didn't think the last paragraph was hokey. It was ingenious.

oh thank goodness you think so. spirally snail shell trains of thought and self referential silliness and all that. i was worried it was too ridiculous for anyone but me

[Anonymous No.2023924]

FUCKING TEEMO STOP PLANTING ALL THOSE MUSHROOMS

[Anonymous No.2023940]

Oh, and "timón" is like a rudder of a ship, or a steering wheel.

>>2023908
i dunno, i like the sound of it, and it's not a very uncommon name where i live.

just fun facts, Teemo's name is Timothy 'cause of that bear enthusiast Timothy Treadwell who went to live with bears and then got eaten by them back in 2003. I followed his story closely back then. He was a failed actor and changed his last name to Treadwell to make it more appealing; Teemo made up his own name too. 'Treadwell' seemed a little too precious to use but Teemo's an earnest guy who wants to be liked down to his very name. seemed to fit.

>>2023890
aw you're probably right. but the metamorphosis is funny

[Anonymous No.2023968]

>>2023909
Your picture made me laugh. Twice.

The Metamorphosis may be funny, but the title doesn't evoke the same feelings are the other two mentioned and so doesn't jive with the tone. The reader is only going to give a cursory thought to the story, resting heavily on its name. They aren't going to think about it past that, very likely, so what counts is what's in the title, not what's in the story. Get me?

Now that you mention it, your 'gray in the morning light' line is a sham. It disgraces the time of day you're writing about. Maybe you didn't think about it too heavily, but remember: that time of day is possibly the most breathtaking - it's so expansive and clean and the color is blanched out of everything, and you're just throwing it down and ignoring all it has to offer. It's disgraceful. And you might not even want to go with that time of day. Unless you'd like to use some cleverness (I know you've got it) and build up a subtle backdrop behind your words like what I've just said about it and then add phrases and connotations to make it seem, I don't know, more stark. Like an empty white room can be detailed to make it seem open and free and glorious and virginal, but can also be show to be closed and suffocating and like hell.

[Anonymous No.2023970]

>>2023968
Setting is super fucking important bro. In order to be good at it I recommend reading authors who get into the setting (I can't think of any right now, maybe make a thread about it or someone will help out itt) and maybe even sitting down and trying to reconstruct the room you are in on paper. Writing down what you see and all that mess. But before those things can relaly take effect you must be conscientiously observant of your surroundings. When you're waiting for something, like the bus or a friend, whatever, look around you and take in what you're seeing. Go for walks. Pay attention to what you see and FEEL about it, damn it. That's the important part. That's the heart of it. The other things only hone the skill - cut the raw diamond, if you will. You've got to have the eye.

I like you OP. I like you for how you're working with your writing. It makes me respect you. And let me tell you, I usually critique with veiled contempt.

[Anonymous No.2024057]

>>2023968
>>2023970

i definitely agree about the titles now, hah. good point.

Originally i was placing the story at dusk, which i found a tad easier to describe, but i think dawn probably suits the story better. What mainly matters to me, as you noticed, is the liminality. But you're right, it's a crying shame i left it as an inert gray lump outside.

>I recommend reading authors who get into the setting

I'll go pawing around in my favorite books and see what's up. i like how sir doyle does it in particular, i've paid attention to that. He's brief, but colorful. lotsa verbs. And he picks out just the exact details you need to see to imagine the rest. I'm not sure how else I would want to handle setting, I don't want it to grow out of proportion. But it seems i'm much more in danger of skimping than going overboard. Richard Adams has a nice way, too, iirc. it's story story story and then out of nowhere you're in a meadow of flowery britishisms for a paragraph or two, for no particular reason, and yet it's not annoying. I'd love to be able to swing that.

>Pay attention to what you see and FEEL about it, damn it.

Oh boy, I think this is going to be my real obstacle and weak point. Exciting. I will do my best Anon

>I like you OP. I like you for how you're working with your writing. It makes me respect you.

Awwh, thanks. I find your analysis extremely helpful, it's much more than I expected.

[Anonymous No.2024072]

>>2024057
What is this thing from which your images are derived? Hm?

>mfw I'm too exhausted to reply further

Good luck! I hope to see your writing on here again. Glad to've been of service.

[Anonymous No.2024095]

>>2024072
They are derived from a thing called Stephen Fry. I believe the ones i posted are from A Bit of Fry and Laurie, and old sketch show, quite entertaining. He currently hosts a semi-educational quiz show called QI, you might enjoy that too.

[Anonymous No.2024116]

>>2024072
and also, thanks again, you're awesome

[Anonymous No.2024175]

>>2024095
>>2024116
I've heard of it but I never thought it would be quite so funny. You've convinced me to try it. And it's nothing.

[Sherlock Holmes Guy No.2025808]

Alright. I tried rewriting it without looking, and I tried to add more description and flesh out Rodolfo more. let's see if i made it worse or better, eh?
---

Politely, tentatively, Rodolfo held up a finger.

"One moment," he said to his guest, "I'll be right back, then you can keep telling me your story, okay?" The young gentleman on his sofa made a gesture of assent and Rodolfo left the living room for the kitchen, where the first gray strands of dawn were threading through the blinds.

"I don't know, I don't know if he's dangerous," Rodolfo murmured into the reciever. His bare feet went slap, slap on the cold linoleum as he paced, fingers furrowing his black curly hair, "I said I don't know," he swung open his refrigerator and blindly rooted around in it with one arm, eyes pinned to the stranger in his living room, "please, just send somebody--thank you--no, I can't," he pulled out a pitcher of ice water and shut the door with his heel, "I said I can't," he whispered, "I have to watch him. He's a nut."

Rodolfo was about thirty years old, dark-complexioned, and compact. Childish-looking curls bounced and dangled around his face with every cant of the head. He would have been an attractive and popular man were it not for the misfortune of a bent, squashed-down nose sprawling across the axis of his face and a condition that caused him to sweat more than other people. He was sweating now as he returned to the living room with the pitcher and a glass, managing to smile at the stranger with his mouth but not his eyes. "Here you are--Timón, is it?"

[Sherlock Holmes Guy No.2025811]

>>2025808
"Teemo, you know, short for Timothy? It doesn't matter; I made it up. You can call me anything." Teemo took a sip of water and with a shaking hand set his glass on the coffee table. He glanced out the window. He didn't understand how to tell time on a clock, but by the bluing sky he knew that things were already beginning to stir and deteriorate. The truth would be out there, and it would be gone soon--if it wasn't already gone, or if it was ever there. But he couldn't leave Rodolfo without an explanation. It would be worth it, he thought, to miss the evidence in the street, if he could just explain. This would be his only chance.

"I'm sorry if this is confusing, Rodolfo. It's hard to get it all straight. I never planned to tell you any of this, and I'm awful at thinking on my feet," the corner Teemo's mouth quirked up and for a moment he seemed on the verge of laughter, but he subdued himself. "The beginning's too long to start with, and the end makes no sense without the middle, so that's why we had to start in medias res. Do you see? Are you listening?"

"Yes, of course, Teemo. I'm all ears."

"Did you ever notice a snail on your bedroom window?"

"Oh, yes, all the time. Lots of them."

"I mean, a particularly ugly one?"

"I never--I never studied them individually. No. Sorry."

[Sherlock Holmes Guy No.2025815]

>>2025811
"It's okay. Don't apologize," Teemo paused to marshal his thoughts, then tried another angle. "There is a disease that affects some snails, makes their bodies swell up underneath the shell. They can hardly retract their bodies back in, and the shell eventually begins to crack and rot. It's very painful. Snail doctors have no way of treating the disease, and humans know virtually nothing about it. I think it's congenital. You know, like a birth defect?"

Rodolfo nodded.

Teemo picked at the cuffs of his sleeves. His skin felt incredibly dry all over and he wanted to draw his entire body into his white button-up shirt.

"I spent alot of time reading and I taught myself to read. Not in that order. I learned to read, and then I read a lot of books. The books taught me everything about people, but not much about snails. That's what I learned to read for, Rodolfo. I thought I might find a cure for the disease. I gave up on that pretty early on, though. I just wanted to learn more things about you."

He noticed Rodolfo's posture stiffen.

"Oh, no, no, I'm sorry, not you specifically, Rodolfo, that came out wrong. You, as in people." He squirmed and tried to think of what to say next. He didn't want to upset Rodolfo, but he couldn't keep evading the truth or this whole conversation would be meaningless. Out with it, then.
---

i didnt change it much after this point since i was just testing out executing your advice.

>>2023879
Re: the last paragraph
>You get a little sloppy with it, but during the eventual and inevitable rewriting I'm sure that can be corrected. You'll see what's wrong with it after you have some distance/more advice from us.

Hmm, what's sloppy about it, exactly? i don't doubt you, but I'd like a nudge in the right direction if possible. Otherwise I figure you're right; it'll improve upon being rewritten and revised

[Anonymous No.2025853]

>>2023815
I think that in this paragraph you started showing instead of telling, which broke the fictive dream (“fictive dream.” (the state of consciousness reached by readers who are absorbed by a writer).

You should just drop everything like that on the reader's consciousness. Reveal the knowledge in small bits, and through the characters.

For example: "Snails are magical and can teleport" = telling

"Did that Teemo dude just appear out of fuckin' nowhere? Holy shit-nigger," Rodolfo thought aloud. = showing

[Anonymous No.2025855]

>>2025853

“fictive dream” = the state of consciousness reached by readers who are absorbed by a writer*

[Anonymous No.2025864]

>>2023815


I think that in this paragraph you started telling instead of showing, which broke the fictive dream (“fictive dream" = the state of consciousness reached by readers who are absorbed by a writer).

You shouldn't just drop everything like that on the reader's consciousness. Reveal the knowledge in small bits, and through the characters.

For example: "Snails are magical and can teleport" = telling

"Did that Teemo dude just appear out of fuckin' nowhere? Holy shit-nigger," Rodolfo thought aloud. = showing

[Sherlock Holmes Guy No.2025908]

>>2025864
>"Did that Teemo dude just appear out of fuckin' nowhere? Holy shit-nigger," Rodolfo thought aloud. = showing

hahahaha

Well, there are certain parts of the story that I feel the need to breeze over and simply "tell", because they aren't all that important. Snails being able to teleport after death, for example, is not actually that important--but snails being incapable of telling a coherent story is something that I want to show, because it has to do with the story. Teemo being arrested is not that important, the police are nobody; what will happen to him once he is in prison is more the heart of it. So, how should I balance this, do you think? I'll continue to do what I think is right, of course, but that won't stop me from trying out what y'all got to say. thank you for the input!

[Anonymous No.2025915]

>>2025908
You're right; I should've added that showing *all the time* is exhausting for the reader. Most good writers resort to telling every now and then. What I meant is that a long paragraph like that disturbs (IMO) the flow, and should be rewritten.

[Sherlock Holmes Guy No.2025924]

>>2025915
Ahh, gotcha. I will certainly rewrite it and try to trim it. thanks

[Anonymous No.2025933]

>>2025924
No problem. :)

I like the concept--it kind of reminds me of Hayao Miyazaki. I'd definitely read it...

[Anonymous No.2025936]

How to tell a compelling story:
1. Write correctly and clearly, following the traditional conventions of fiction.
2. Make the reader care about what happens by doing at least one of the following: a) Making the reader care about the main character. b) Making the prose so interesting/funny/dazzling that the reader can't wait to see what you'll say next. c) Foreshadowing an intriguing destiny for at least one of the characters in the story and then fulfilling on the promise of that foreshadowing.
3. End the story in a satisfying way.

And remember: An idea for a situation is not an idea for a story. An idea for a story is an idea for an ending.

[Sherlock Holmes Guy No.2025953]

>>2025936
Ah! I like this list. I made a list like this for myself, much more disorganized than yours but the same general concept. I just started taking notes of things that pleased/annoyed me while I was reading. If anyone else wants to try doing that I'd love to see what they come up with, whether they consider it to be universal rules of writing or just their own reading preferences.

>And remember: An idea for a situation is not an idea for a story. An idea for a story is an idea for an ending.

agreed. There were some short stories I was reading recently that were wonderful situations, but the endings would totally fizzle out. I like the author's prose enough not to be bothered by it, but I really would prefer an ending that satisfies rather than tapers off. hopefully my idea for the ending of this will be worth it; I'm worried about that. But eh, there's only one way to learn and to get better.

>>2025933
aw i'm glad

[Anonymous No.2025966]

>>2023840
NO! Don't tell me, show me. I liked the fact that I had to figure the fuck out. I agree with others re:characterization/setting BUT- this is a small portion of a larger thing. I also write pages before I give information, damnit, you don't have to write conventionally if it suits the style to do so.

Keep writitng

[Sherlock Holmes Guy No.2025979]

>>2025966
>I liked the fact that I had to figure the fuck out.

Ah, good, okay. I have a fear of dallying too much but y'all are helping me get over it.