/rg/ - Rhetoric General

[Anonymous No.20229413]

Inaugural Edition

Previous: None.

This is a general meant for the discussion of rhetorical techniques, their applications, and other general rhetoric related topics.

>recommended reading:
Mark Forsynth - The Elements of Eloquence

This OP is a work in progress, and will be updated as new information comes to light for OP.

[Anonymous No.20229423]

Another stupid general.

[Anonymous No.20229614]

>/mag/ - My Ass General
>My Ass Edition
>Previous: My Ass.
>This is a general meant for the discussion of my ass, my ass, and other general my ass related topics.
>>recommended reading:
>My Assynth - The Elements of My Ass
>This OP is a work in my ass, and will be updated as my ass comes to light for my ass.

[Anonymous No.20229790]

>>20229423
>>20229614
Thanks for coming. Both of you could clearly benefit from this general if it takes off.

[Anonymous No.20229899]

What is rhetoric, spoonfeed me

[Anonymous No.20229928]

>>20229899
the art of speaking well, either to convince people to do/believe the right thing or the wrong thing

[Anonymous No.20230014]

>>20229413
COVID. If you Google is COVID deaths its almost 1 mill.

In what one of these 3 areas did the US fail to persuade the public?

[Anonymous No.20230031]

>>20229928
I like this thread now

[Anonymous No.20230053]

>>20229928
> either to convince people to do/believe the right thing or the wrong thing
horrible and round about and often not aplicable way to put it.

Its to convince them to come over to a certian position. Right/wrong is contextual at best and constraining at worst.

[Anonymous No.20230083]

>>20230053
>Right/wrong is contextual at best and constraining at worst.
Ok mr morality is relative maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan

[Anonymous No.20230110]

>>20230083
…Thats not the point.
Im talking about the definitional function of Rhetoric.
I actually do believe in objective morality, but rhetoric as a function and concept is not fundementally tied to that.
If I was arguing for one use of taxes over another, that doesnt make one of the two necissarily evil. Or If I was malicious, I could still spin something in a way to make it seem nuetral of benificial (and it might just be too, but I also get whatever I want out of it). Or I could argue something for a listeners benifit, but for others lose.
If you ever been to a debate club you would know this. you are often GIVEN a position, and you are supposed to come up with a good way to argue it weither you personally believe it or not. because rhetoric is a body of convincing techniques, NOT necissarily a process of finding Fundemental truths. that would be philosophy or theology (who might employ rhetoric as a device to get to those things)

[Anonymous No.20230120]

>>20230110
>>20229413
half decent entertaining introduction to rhetoric (dont expect proffessional): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z3pe_OSZrQ

[Anonymous No.20230145]

>>20230110
which one do you agree with the most
Aristotle: 'Let rhetoric be the capacity to discover the possible means of persuasion concerning any subject.'
Quintilian: 'Knowing how to speak well.'
Kant: 'the art of carrying on a serious business of the understanding as if it were a free play of the imagination'
Nietzsche: 'rhetoric is a further development, guided by the clear light of the understanding, of the artistic means which are already found in language'

Rhetoric = the science of speaking well (the method, theory)

Oratory = speaking well (the action, practice)

[Anonymous No.20230163]

>>20230145
Aristotle.

[Anonymous No.20230180]

Hijacking this thread. I'm a freelancer who has a hard time finding new clients and closing leads. All my work comes from word of mouth, people see my portfolio and this "fuck, he's good, let's get him" I probably undercharge which also probably helps.
I've read dozens of salesbooks and still suck, The Challenger Sale - Dixon and Adamson, You Can Sell - Shiv Khera, Same Side Selling - Quaries and Altman, Pre-Suasion - Robert Cialdini, Selling by Not Selling - Jim Penman, Thinking Fast and Slow - Daniel Kahenman, Make it Stick - Chip and Dan Heath, Never Split the Difference - Chis Voss, I used to follow Scott Adam's blogs on 'persuasion'. And before you ask, yes I've read Aristotle's Rhetoric, Poetics; Quintilian's Institutio Oratoria; Rhetorica ad herenniuml Dionysius of Hallicarnasius on Composition, on Dinarchus; no I haven't finished reading De Oratore by Cicero.
However none of this shit helps because I can't get the attention of the right customer, there's probably a way to do this through a evolutionary social media strategy, where I A/B test various 'ads' or promos and try and tailor them for successive engagement. I also haven't paid for ads, which I probably should (only now do I have enough $$$ to afford it).
For context, I have a big social group. Not too good with women but have been on maybe 7 dates in the last year. Simply put: Average social skills.
TL;DR - Help me get people to buy my services!

[Anonymous No.20230184]

>>20229413
Here are two unbeatable (of employed in the right contexts) rhetorical techniques you can use in any debate:
1. Start repeating over and over again, in different ways, that the other person has completely misunderstood what you are saying, insulting their intelligence throughout.
2. Call their writing illegible, start browbeating and insulting them for how their writing betrays no understanding of the subject.

[Anonymous No.20230195]

>>20230180
Study psychology and marketing to learn how to manipulate people.

[Anonymous No.20230210]

>>20230195
What specific aspects of psychology am I missing? I've already read some Lacan seminars, Jung, even cog-sci books on Linguistics, I have something like 30,000 words of summaries I've written on various psychological research on motivation. And a similar amount on case studies for marketing of everything from Luxury Brands, to Art House Films, to Apple marketing campaigns.
What specifically should I do that I haven't already done and how will it help me, a humble freelancer, get more clients?

[Anonymous No.20230220]

>>20230180
Can I buy a zenbook 14x with 12 gb of ram, 512 gb ssd, the current ryzan cpu, a descrete graphics card, a 2k oled monitor 16x10 and a headphone jack for about $850 dollars please?

[Anonymous No.20230231]

>>20230220
I deal in creative services not physical goods anon

[Anonymous No.20230263]

Isocrates on the importance of natural ability for rhetoric. Ppl like >>20230180 are NGMI, sadly.

[Anonymous No.20230268]

>>20230263

[Anonymous No.20230275]

>>20230268

[Anonymous No.20230277]

>>20230263
I am a capable orator though. Maybe not a rhetorician, but I'm a very capable orator. Had people howling at my standup and comedy performances. People say they love my persona during lectures and my stage presence.
None of which I learned from those books either.
Not that it matters, because even people who are bad orators or bad rhetoricians sill manage to make sales.

[Anonymous No.20230311]

>>20230263
I dont deal with mediOCRATES.

[Anonymous No.20231006]

Bumping. I think this could be a good general for the board.

[Anonymous No.20231022]

>>20230180
you're probably not looking for rhetoric but instead for like, that dale carnegie book

[Anonymous No.20231030]

>>20231022
I stopped reading that book since it seemed like just common sense, again my social skills aren't the problem: convincing people to give me money is. Does that come under deliberative rhetoric?

[Anonymous No.20231040]

>>20229413
Thank you OP.

We need a mnemonics general as well.
Then we can dab on the plebs and normalshits for world domination.

[Anonymous No.20232009]

>>20229413
Good idea OP, I think this general would be nice to the board, have a bump.
Anyone more educated could tell me if persuasion of one person part of rhetoric? Or is it just public speaking and debates?

[Anonymous No.20232315]

>>20229413
It seems examples are the most convincing form of rhetoric. Posing real life examples to prove a point forces people to concede or deny their own reality.

[Anonymous No.20232321]

>>20229413
Modernity is post rhetorical

[Anonymous No.20232333]

Okay, OP, here's your first task: without resorting to whataboutism, which we should both agree is specious reasoning, justify the presence of this thread on /lit/. As a refresher, here are some relevant clauses, per the sticky:
>/lit/ is for the discussion of literature, specifically books (fiction & non-fiction), short stories, poetry, creative writing, etc.
>If you want to discuss history, religion, or the humanities, go to /his/
>Philosophical discussion can go on either /lit/ or /his/, but those discussions of philosophy that take place on /lit/ should be based around specific philosophical works to which posters can refer

[Anonymous No.20232338]

faggot

[Anonymous No.20232582]

>>20232009
>>20231040
Thanks. Be sure to contribute to the OP. I want to add >>20230120 but it might border on shilling for an e-celebs. Thoughts?

I think someone else is making a mnemonics/memory retention general.

>>20232333
I'm not good with rhetorics yet, but I'll give it a few tries:

>/lit/ is for the discussion of literature, fiction & non-fiction
>most people agree that all works today are plagued by poorly thought out ideologies
>in order to convince people that such messages are true, authors rely on rhetorical tricks
>studying these rhetorical tricks allow dilettantes like us to better analyze books
>this is beneficial to the discussion that this board is meant for

>/lit/ is plagued by disingenuous posters
>see: same argument as above

>/lit/ is used by fledgeling writers to learn the basics of their craft
>rhetoric can enhance your writing greatly
>however, the field of rhetoric is vast and would clog /wg/
>having a rhetoric general allows new users to find these tools easily
>it also helps more experienced writers to have a space for discussion that doesn't ruin another

>/lit/ can be used for philosophy discussion
>however, a majority of philosophy and literary discussion here is centered around the circumstances surrounding the work, or competing works - both of which verge on being historical
>a rhetoric general starts a discussion about technique, thereby promoting a discussion about technique and making the discussion holistic

How'd I do? The simplest argument is that there are people who agree with me, so there's obviously a desire for something like this on /lit/. If it doesn't go against the rules, why can't we have a general like this?

[Anonymous No.20232618]

>>20231030
If you don't want or need what you're selling, try to show them the good points, the ways in which it would be good for them. Not literally, of course.

[Anonymous No.20232809]

>>20232582
Aristotle would be a must for the OP. Youtube videos can be fun but should not be in the generals op imo

>>20232333
>/lit/ is for the discussion of literature, fiction & non-fiction
There are a lot of books written about rhetoric. From classics and academic works to pop garbage, the topic has an extensive catalouge. It also has implications on writing and debating itself, which are essential to discussing literature in the first place.
>Philosophical discussion can go on either /lit/ or /his/, but those discussions of philosophy that take place on /lit/ should be based around specific philosophical works to which posters can refer
It has been a topic that philosophers wrote about, and those philospohers were mentioned and discussed in this thread, >>20230145 being an example.

[Anonymous No.20232855]

>>20230220
based /g/ poster
>>20230231
he's saying you're too specific on unrealistic constraints
learn something about marketing, anon
word of mouth is the best marketing tool desu, all it takes is a couple of good customers
breaking into that is pretty difficult, though
a business doesn't survive in a vacuum. you need to plug your shit somewhere, even if it's just shilling on some facepage and twitter accounts.

[Anonymous No.20232861]

>>20232582
>>20232809
>Aristotle would be a must for the OP. Youtube videos can be fun but should not be in the generals op imo
pretty much this. maybe a good "What is rhetoric?" video for the uninitiated.

[Anonymous No.20232870]

Describe the rhetoric of 4chan to me. What's special about him?

[Anonymous No.20233849]

>>20232870
>twitter: retards namefagging with character limit making the try to have quick "witty rebuttals"
>reddit:retards namefagging while blackmailing each other with le upboats
>4channel:retards still, but at least people get called out if they act dumb, so this website is officialy the site that requires the most rethorical skill to navigate

[Anonymous No.20233902]

>>20233849
Id add that 4chan required more rhetorical ability then most, at least in theory. Because unless you are a namefag, all you have is your words and reaction images to effect a certain response from people. In fact, I would say baiting is a pretty obvious form of stretching rhetorical muscles.

[Anonymous No.20234917]

Bump.

>>20232861
>>20232809
>Aristotle
Will do.

[Anonymous No.20234971]

>>20232618
This is where I think my problem is: I can't figure out how to identify causes of 'desire'. I can't build a mental bridge between the services I offer and the desires or attractions they might have for those people.
If there's a part of rhetoric I need to study more it's probably Dispositio: not how to build the most rational argument, but how to tailor an argument for a specific audience

[Anonymous No.20236020]

>>20234971
Did you do any market research? Knowing who your audience is will help tailoring a message. Also, maybe you just need to spam the marketing. Quantity sometimes has a quality on its own.

[Anonymous No.20236033]

>>20236020
>Did you do any market research?
Very little, I don't know how to conduct it on the very small level as a freelancer. Like asking "how many live/performing musicians are there in Genericville in 2021?" is about the best market research I can manage.
Like if you're a freelancer and you don't have the advertising budget to blanket a city of several million people to get customers, especially when your specific audience is very niche, how do you do it?

[Anonymous No.20236298]

>>20236033
Market research can just be asking people in public spaces, most of it takes time to do, but not necesserily a lot of resources.
If you know your target audience, and you say they are niche, you can find the places they congregate online or offline. Do you have competitors? Maybe the problem is that your audience are loyal to someone else. In that case you can try to differentiate yourself both in work and in marketing.

[Anonymous No.20236310]

>>20230180
You need to filter yourself to find the right people. Right message. Right medium. Right time. I paid a gorillion dollars for Billy Gene is Marketing for him to teach me how to use Facebook. I shouldnt have. I don't even have a product or service I just wanted to learn techniques and his business does not work that way like online education but more consulting. There's degrees at universities now offering this specific media communication degree even at art schools. I can't find that unlisted link anymore though. It was impressive.

[Anonymous No.20236315]

>>20236298
> In that case you can try to differentiate yourself both in work and in marketing.
How? How do I figure out what ways I can 'differentiate' myself - this for me is the single biggest thing I can't figure out. Doesn't matter what I do, I don't know how to position and differentiate without being so obscure as to appeal to no-one.

[Anonymous No.20236334]

>>20236315
You already said you give services below the market price. That is already differentiating yourself, why not make it part of your marketing? Also, again, just shill yourself constantly, quantity has its own quality sometimes.

[Anonymous No.20236383]

>>20236334
>You already said you give services below the market price.
No I said I undercharge, and I could myself be undercut by someone else. It's not sustainable and if I was smart I'd find another form of differntiation so that I wouldn't need to undercharge.
But also I said this is a general problem, not just to my freelancing - to anything I do. I need the tools to identify sustainable differentiation

[Anonymous No.20236400]

Is there a book on meta rhetoric?
Like why bother with who kind of a pull back view.
I do not think our entire digital society being an affeminate notification prison is conducive to business, match making, or really anything but vague dissatisfaction. Everyone is selling basic bitch how to impress women clickbait is hot gas. You are rewarded to contributing to hot gas titillation and not an efficient pipeline of single pointed focus action and call to action. We are being rewarded for feminine pointless chatter by entities like YouTube that have turned the ad game into a garish Casino.

[Anonymous No.20236402]

>>20236400
High level view on rhetoric is all I want not any screed on society or DA JEWS pg 1600/6,000,000

[Anonymous No.20236454]

>>20232870
Read Schopenhauer's art of being right and you have a basic summary.

[Anonymous No.20236472]

>>20230210
>What specifically should I do that I haven't already done and how will it help me, a humble freelancer, get more clients?
none of that bullshit that you gabbled on about would be anywhere near as effective as just having a good linkedin profile

[Anonymous No.20236686]

>>20229413
everyone presents enthymeme as a product of the rhetor's reflection, but I think it is actually the ur-form of reasoning which is later filled in by logical speculation.

[Anonymous No.20236696]

>>20236472
How does that help me as a freelancer with very little employment history and only lib arts degrees?

[Anonymous No.20236769]

>>20229413
I'm increasingly thinking rethoric only works on a certain level of intelligence. Most normies I speak to are too fucking retarded to discuss anyhthing beyond "the TV man said so' and 'you are wrong because it goes against how I feel'.
Anyway looking foward to see where this goes.

[Anonymous No.20236826]

>>20236696
because you use the profile to puff up your work history, get recs from people, connect with people and so on
also join a few groups and make a few posts so you get into people's notifications and search results
i'm a contractor and most new potential customers that contact me have done so because they found me on linkedin. i find the whole social media thing a bit icky but it's a necessary evil these days

[Anonymous No.20237091]

>>20236769
>Most normies I speak to are too fucking retarded to discuss anyhthing beyond "the TV man said so' and 'you are wrong because it goes against how I feel'.
This may be conjecture, or anecdotal experience, but I think after getting good enough at rhetoric, you can deprogram them. I've done it with some family members and it definitely worked.

[Anonymous No.20237338]

Thoughts on Kenneth Burke?

[Anonymous No.20237415]

>>20236769
Well TV man uses rhetoric, and appeasing peoples feelings is part of rhetoric. But you are correct in saying that not everyone is on the same level of intelligence and will not be persuaded in the same way.

[Anonymous No.20239041]

>>20229413
>Mark Forsynth - The Elements of Eloquence
Dropped it halfway through. Isn’t there a way for I to speak gooder?

[Anonymous No.20239074]

>>20230180
I feel so sorry for you needing to read all those bs self help books just to sell yourself and make yourself look good. The world has rotten your soul.

[Anonymous No.20239801]

>>20236826
I should probably explain, my confusion is that I see LinkedIn as a glorified resume and that the only people who might contact you are recruiters.
I didn't realize there are 'groups' on there like on Facebook. So you're saying that with the right profile (and some persistent shilling in relevant groups) people may actually reach out to me inquiring about my services via LinkedIn?
>>20239074
Thank you. Yes it has rotted my soul. At least I now see how bullshit they all are.
This is why I always ragepost in any thread that asks about self-help books. If one anon doesn't make the same mistake as me, I consider that a victory...
...of course I suck at rhetoric so I'm not persuasive, kek

[Anonymous No.20239922]

>>20230180
Stop reading so many self help books, anon. Listening to such drivel, such bottom feeder "advice" will do no good.
Think about it: these motherfuckers try to sell self help books because they couldn't hack it in their fields. It's the same scam as selling freelance writing courses.
Most people go through that compulsive reading phase, though. Not to worry. You're already doing the right thing if people are hiring you. Charge more if you want to make more money. Hit the job boards if you want to reach more people. Ads ain't shit - they have a terrible ROI.
The easiest way to solve your problem is to ask whoever isn't hiring or dropping you what went wrong. Freelancing is hard as fuck. Even the best have a low closing rate. Keep that in mind.

[Anonymous No.20240009]

>>20239922
>Think about it: these motherfuckers try to sell self help books because they couldn't hack it in their fields
Yeah, I realized they're not in the business of helping you achieve your goals. They're in the business of validating you.
I'm sure one day that in a meta-sense I'll learn how to turn these narratives and bullshit and become a grifter myself, not that I would want to be...
>Even the best have a low closing rate. Keep that in mind.
I hope this is true, that does make me feel better and in that stupid way where it shouldn't because I should be doing it anyway motivates me to want to play the numbers game more.

[Anonymous No.20240016]

>>20229413
Bump, I want to become a sophist

[Anonymous No.20240046]

>>20239801
>I should probably explain, my confusion is that I see LinkedIn as a glorified resume and that the only people who might contact you are recruiters.
yes, there is certainly an element of that. isn't that what you want? i thought you were looking for work
>I didn't realize there are 'groups' on there like on Facebook. So you're saying that with the right profile (and some persistent shilling in relevant groups) people may actually reach out to me inquiring about my services via LinkedIn?
that is approximately how i use it, yes. there is a direct correlation between the amount you post (and the number of buzzwords your posts contain) and the number of times you appear in search results (either from people searching for you directly or searching for one of the buzzwords in your posts). it also helps if you can get your connections to repost your posts, so the posts also reach those people's networks. the end result should be an increase of traffic on your profile and hopefully more enquiries about your services.

[Anonymous No.20240096]

>>20240046
>i thought you were looking for work
Isn't that different from looking for gigs as a freelancer?
Full time employment vs. specific gigs?
>there is a direct correlation between the amount you post (and the number of buzzwords your posts contain) and the number of times you appear in search results
Very interesting!