/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.20221058]

How can you guys be fans of the ancient greeks yet still hate gays?

[Anonymous No.20221067]

I don't hate gays, I just call everyone I disagree with a faggot.

[Anonymous No.20221068]

>>20221058
Because the Greeks weren't 'gay' and we don't hate homosexuals, only trannies.

[Anonymous No.20221070]

>>20221058
LG and B people are typically fine

T are monsters

[Anonymous No.20221081]

>>20221070
I can only get off to tranny porn at this point. Thai ladyboys are avatars of lust.

[Anonymous No.20221086]

>>20221058
Same way one of the most discussed authors on the board can be a repressed tranny

[Anonymous No.20221087]

>>20221081
What is the appeal? I have degenerate fetishes but they revolve around the interplay of well-defined genders. It isn't intrinsically interesting or taboo for me if the man becomes feminine or the woman becomes masculine, it's just an annoying derivation from the norm and a distraction. If I were gay I imagine I'd be even more annoyed when all the gay men out there are trying to be glorified women.

[Anonymous No.20221089]

>>20221058
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it faggot

[Anonymous No.20221099]

>>20221058
The ancient Greeks had gay sex without modern faggotry

[Anonymous No.20221100]

I wonder WHO could be behind the greeks are gay narrative
but there were faggots in that time like is every time

[Anonymous No.20221160]

>>20221058
it's okay on paper but it's actually disgusting and you need an enema every time unless you're a gross degenerate.

[Anonymous No.20221164]

>>20221058
Because

[Anonymous No.20221174]

>>20221081
No one asked coomer

[Anonymous No.20221178]

>>20221058
It was different

[Anonymous No.20221187]

>>20221100
>I wonder WHO could be behind the greeks are gay narrative
the greeks..

>[The Persians'] luxurious practices are of all kinds, and all borrowed: the Greeks taught them pederasty.
Herodotus 1.135

>In most of the Greek cities the laws do not oppose men’s desire for boys.
Xenophon, Constitution of the Lacedaemonians 2.14

>The lawgiver gave much thought to the benefits of moderation in eating and also to the isolation of women, so that they not have many children. To this end he devised intercourse with males.
Aristotle, Politics 2.10, 1272a22–26

>The same lawgiver [Solon] said: ‘The slave is not to be the lover of a free boy, nor to pursue him, or else he is to receive fifty lashes with the public whip.’ But he did not prevent the free man from being a lover, from associating with or pursuing a boy, nor did he think that this brought harm to the boy, but saw it as a testimony to his self-control."
Aeschines, Against Timarchos 138-9

>Love affairs were such an open and everyday matter that the great poet Aeschylus, and Sophocles too, put sexual themes on the stage in their tragedies, Aeschylus showing Achilles’ love for Patroclus. . . . And many men, overall, prefer love with boys to love with females. In the very cities of Greece that have the best laws by comparison with others, this is the mode of behavior that is fashionable.
Athenaeus 13.601

[Anonymous No.20221189]

>>20221187
Using a male’s body to satisfy purely sexual desires isn’t gay

[Anonymous No.20221198]

>>20221189
The Greek relationships were expected to be romantic commitments, not simply "using" males for satisfaction. Hence the discussion about "good" and "bad" lovers in the Symposium

[Anonymous No.20221211]

Jokes on you I'm gay

[Anonymous No.20221243]

>>20221087
https://youtube.com/shorts/j6MguvaLQvk?feature=share

[Anonymous No.20221246]

>>20221211
based fag

[Anonymous No.20221286]

>>20221058
By that logic you can't hate pedophiles and like ancient greeks either

[Anonymous No.20221411]

>>20221198
That's even gayer than just being gay bro....like, that's a full on gay-on-gay relationship, and not even a man needing his urges fixed...super gay...

[Anonymous No.20221417]

>>20221198
If there's an age gap it ain't gay.
Same age relationships were strictly forbidden and morally reprehensible

[Anonymous No.20221421]

>>20221417
>Same age relationships were strictly forbidden and morally reprehensible
I don't know about "strictly forbidden and morally reprehensible", just uncommon and socially suspect. Greeks make reference to the fact that young males are more sexually interested in their peers than in older men. This doesn't seem too different from modern gays lusting over the freshest pieces of ass

[Anonymous No.20221526]

>he doesn't know

[Anonymous No.20221546]

>>20221058
Who told you im a fan of ancient greeks or gays? Yes, ancient greeks were pagan pederasts, not that theres anything right with that.

[Anonymous No.20221579]

>>20221058
Because I'm a self hating fag

[Anonymous No.20221603]

>>20221058
Ancient Homosexuality = Based

Modern Homosexuality = Cringe

[Op No.20221605]

>>20221058
Fags are alright, but Jews on the other hand. . .

[Anonymous No.20221613]

Greek Love died with the birth of feminism

[Anonymous No.20221685]

Plato says that sodomy should be illegal in Laws because it’s contrary to human nature:
> one certainly should not fail to observe that when male unites with female for procreation the pleasure experienced is held to be due to nature, but contrary to nature when male mates with male or female with female, and that those first guilty of such enormities [the Cretans] were impelled by their slavery to pleasure. And we all accuse the Cretans of concocting the story about Ganymede.

[Anonymous No.20221686]

>>20221685
Plato also thinks children shouldn't know the identity of their fathers

[Anonymous No.20221688]

>>20221613
only for losers like you

[Anonymous No.20221696]

>>20221686
Well he’s wrong about that but right about homosexuality. It’s clearly contrary to nature. When you think about the structure of the penis and the structure of the vagina you clearly see they are meant for each other, like a nut and bolt. When a woman becomes horny her vagina self lubricates. Why? Obviously to prepare to receive the penis. And when a man is horny his dick gets hard, once again obviously to enter the vagina. When a man fucks a woman he ejaculates inside of her and what happens? Conception; life; the raising of beautiful children. In terms of character, the male’s dominant, rash, and sometimes careless personality contrasts perfectly with the female’s submissive, caring, and nurturing instincts. It’s so obvious to me that metaphysically the only form of sex and romance which can be called Good is heterosexual. The others are perversions of nature, which is why you see even in homosexual relationships they try to replicate the male-female dynamic, which is why they go for little boys or “twinks” who are not masculine.

[Anonymous No.20221700]

>>20221058
The ability or lack thereof of a person to enjoy a work while personally disagreeing with the author’s lifestyle or opinions is one of the most immediate ways you can display your intelligence

[Anonymous No.20221708]

>>20221058
I don't hate gays. In fact I think, now more than ever, it's incredibly fucked up that governments subvert entire populations to some sort of standard (so that they can increase birth rate or maybe for religious reasons) instead of letting people just love who they want to love.

[Anonymous No.20221721]

>>20221696
Plato's argument about homosexuality being contrary to nature hinges on his belief that animals do not have homosexual intercourse, which we now know is false.
>It’s so obvious to me that metaphysically the only form of sex and romance which can be called Good is heterosexual.
Nature has endowed sex with more functions than just heterosexual reproduction. We see this in the way casual heterosexual and homosexual contact in Bonobos is used to improve tribal cohesion.

Some have argued against the notion that God hates sodomy on the grounds that males derive substantial pleasure from receptive anal intercourse. Why did God put a prostate that can be stimulated in this way there?

[Anonymous No.20221725]

>>20221189
Mental_gymnastics.jpg

The real answer to the thread is that whether people like it or not, they are a product of their culture. The homophobia is a part of a larger reactionary mindset that exists in the modern world. They just don't like gay people existing, simple as that. But since the Greeks are idolized in their culture, cognitive dissonance helps bridge the gap between bad gays and good Greeks.

Tl;Dr: they hate gay people because it's their culture but will renounce logic in order to defend their beloved ancient idols.

[Anonymous No.20221729]

>>20221696
Appeal to nature fallacy (phallusy). Yawn

[Anonymous No.20221744]

>>20221058
Because nothing is more natural than psychical contradictions.

[Anonymous No.20221751]

>>20221058
Gay in the modern sense of the word is a very recent construct. Gayness as it is currently conseptualised in the mainstream did not exist in ancient Greece, or even hundred years ago. Sexual acts between two men can not be called gay, eventhough they are homosexual.

[Anonymous No.20221760]

>Reject modern culture
>Bury head in the past
>Discover that apart from some 19th century prudes, the past was super gay.

[Anonymous No.20221771]

>>20221721
A dog will hump anything in sight when it’s horny. It doesn’t follow that bestiality or having sex with chair legs is natural.

Yes sex has a unitive as well as procreative aspect, but this unitive aspect is there to unite husband and wife so that they can properly educate and raise their children together. Sex between male friends does not increase their love and manly bonds with each other; it actually puts the one of them in a feminine position, and strips him of his masculinity. Nor would a father having sex with his son increase their love. This is the point I made before which you didn’t respond to: homosexuals try to replicate the male-female dynamic in their relationships, which is why they love to have sex with little boys who haven’t reached manhood yet.

As for prostate stimulation, I do not believe the function of the prostate is anal stimulation. First of all, there is no self-lubrication process that the asshole goes through like the vagina does. Anal sex is painful and feels like constipation; I know this because when I was a porn-addicted teenager I tried to experiment with putting a bottle up my ass. Moreover, the asshole does not have a self-tightening process like the vagina does (female “looseness” is an urban myth; the vagina tightens itself up again after sex) with the result that homosexuals usually cannot hold their shit in.

Homosexuality is also wrong because, as Plato says, its psychological genesis is hedonism. They can’t start a family, they can’t love each other (because once the little boy or twink grows up to be a man he will feel degraded being feminised, and the manly partner will no longer be attracted to him). There is no rational justification for homosexuality like there is with marriage; it is pure hedonism.

[Anonymous No.20221779]

>>20221099
this

[Anonymous No.20221791]

>>20221058
Faggotry wasn't that big of a thing in greece before the persian wars. In Homer the men argue over who gets this or that woman as their concubine, in Xenophon it's the boys that men argue over.

[Anonymous No.20221815]

>>20221771
Not him but in your opinion why do homosexuals try to still act like heterosexual people in bed? As in, one acting as the woman and the other as the man, like you mentioned. I guess you could say that the human brain defaults to such a dynamic but that feels like bit of a copout answer.

[Anonymous No.20221822]

>>20221421
No the Greeks and Romans had strong sexual mores and very much reviled and contempted any transgression of those sexual and gender roles. In the case of men, effeminacy. Greco-Roman masculinity culture as it existed in these traditional societies that were not far gone from the tribal warrior societies they developed from is hardly comparable with whatever childish suggestions of gender conformity we have now. An individual who deviated from established gender roles were considered to be not even male or female. I recall reading about how some Roman anthologist, when talking about a woman who assumed the male role by participating in court, stating that when it comes to unnatural freaks it is more important to note the date of their death than it is the date of their birth. This would be the general sentiment of their societies.
By modern standards the ancient Greeks would be called bisexual, first of all. Dedicating yourself soley to the male sex to the exclusion of women would not be tolerate as a central function of masculinity is the ability to produce progeny. I can't say that the case a man who spurns women in favor of men alone never occured in their civilization, or that they had no concept, couldn't concieve, of it, because they did have the notion of a sexual deviant and a man could call another adult male a catamite, for instance, to insult and attack his mandom (of course they didn't have the concept of homosexuality, so, at most, they would view such a man as someone with very strong prefrences). Sodomy in their culture takes on an entierly different form. It can't just be reduced to the underlying pedophilia of Western homosexuality. Same age relationships were not accepted and it was simply absent from phenomenon of Greek institutionalized sodomy. The modern homosexual will seek out a partner, perhaps some years younger or older than himself, and try to imitate the relationships you have with women. Greek pederasty, on the other hand, was the sexual compontent or extention of their instution of mentorship between an older and younger male, a type of relationship which doesn't exactly exist today, at least not in the same way. An older man may take interest in a boy that he sees potential excellence in and he wishes to steer him during his development towards virtue. It was a combination of (the today) different roles of mentor, friend and lover, all being explicitly containing strict hierarchy of superiority, eldership, masculininity, activity, lover, on the one hand -- inferiority, juniority, femininity, passivity, beloved, on the other. This ritualized, culturally encoded and strictly regulated play just doesn't exist in the Western conception of homosexuality, nor in how it actually plays out among the gays. The true inheritor of ancient Greco-Roman pederasty is not modern Western homosexuality but Afghan boy-play.

[Anonymous No.20221828]

>>20221771
That's all well and good but what is the rational purpose of procreation?

[Anonymous No.20221832]

>>20221729
Calling something a fallacy doesn't make it so. It's like arguing about morality and then calling someone's argument an appeal to ethics (as though that somehow invalidates it).

[Anonymous No.20221835]

>>20221068
well the ancient greeks understood transsexuals pretty well

[Anonymous No.20221859]

catholic priests rape boys by the tens of thousands
why aren't catholics considered gay?

[Anonymous No.20221869]

If I were a man I'd fuck the shit of some boys. Rip me. I was unironicly born a femoid

[Anonymous No.20221877]

>>20221070
Bi-sexuals are usually fucked up in the head

[Anonymous No.20221878]

>>20221869
God damn I wish I weren't born a woman too

[Anonymous No.20221882]

>>20221760
Everyone can tell you never read the Greeks.
The gay Greek myth falls down when you actually read them, it's in fact a very good way to tell someone is a pseud, if they think the Greeks were gay, they are.

[Anonymous No.20221895]

>>20221822
You’re being naive when you say pederasty was a form of mentorship. The greatest dishonour in Roman and Greek society for a man was to be the passive partner of a homosexual relationship. The boys whom these people raped were not respected, otherwise how could they inflict such a grave dishonour upon them? They raped them and used them for pleasure, that’s it. They were probably slaves or poor boys whom they took advantage of. This was easier than going with women because (1) Greek society excluded women from male circles and (2) you do not need to worry about pregnancy or marriage. It was a disgusting hedonistic practice which took advantage of boys and stripped them of their manhood.

[Anonymous No.20221900]

>>20221828
The institution of Christian marriage is the perfect synthesis of human sexuality/love and rational self-control and virtue. Raising and educating a child is one of the greatest character-building tasks.

[Anonymous No.20221905]

>>20221882
>The gay Greek myth falls down when you actually read them, it's in fact a very good way to tell someone is a pseud
lol you have obviously never read the Greeks

[Anonymous No.20221912]

>>20221859
this, the frogposter is right

[Anonymous No.20221916]

>>20221895
> The greatest dishonour in Roman and Greek society for a man was to be the passive partner of a homosexual relationship. The boys whom these people raped were not respected, otherwise how could they inflict such a grave dishonour upon them? They raped them and used them for pleasure, that’s it. They were probably slaves or poor boys whom they took advantage of.
You obviously have read the Greeks. Read Symposium. Your primary mistake is assuming Greek and Roman sexual mores are the same.

[Anonymous No.20221920]

>>20221882
>the Athenian people, the wisest of people, and Solon who is so great among them, permitted it to the free alone. And sundry other books of the philosophers may one see full of this disease.
John Chrysostom

>Plato's banquet is almost entirely concerned with love, not merely with men in love with women, or women with men, lusts subject to the laws of nature, but of men with males differing from them only in respect of age... The greater part is taken up with common and vulgar love...
Philo, On The Contemplative Life

>That other Grecian licence is justly abhorred by our manners, which also, from having, according to their practice, a so necessary disparity of age and difference of offices betwixt the lovers. . . . Neither will that very picture that the Academy [of Plato] presents of it, as I conceive, contradict me, when I say, that this first fury inspired by the son of Venus into the heart of the lover, upon sight of the flower and prime of a springing and blossoming youth, to which they allow all the insolent and passionate efforts that an immoderate ardour can produce, was simply founded upon external beauty, the false image of corporal generation.
—Montaigne, On Friendship (1580)

>Who it was that first introduced the custom of loving boys into Greece, is uncertain: however [...] we find it generally practised by the ancient Grecians, and that not only in private, but by the public allowance and encouragement of their laws; for they thought there could be no means more effectual to excite their youth to noble undertakings, nor any greater security to their commonwealths, than this generous passion.
John Potter, Archaeologia graeca (1698)

>Solon, one of their seven wise Men, and the famous Lawgives of the Athenians, Plutarch tells us, (Amat.) not only himself used this infamous Trade of Sodomy, but recommended it as honest, and established it by Law, (Chryysost.) forbidding it only to Servants, or with them, as a refined Pleasure, proper only for the Ingenuous, and to be reserved to Men of Quality and Distinction. [...] This so pious and excellent Socrates, as an Instance of his Sapience in Morality, was deeply tained with this foul Diseas of Arsenocoitism [anal coitus, i.e. sodomy] [...] The divine Plato, tho' he is said to disapprove it in his Laws, and some have attempted to clear him from it, yet is made to sully his divine Character with the Guilt of it by Laertius in his Life. [...] Nay, so far was Sodomy from being punished amongst the Athenians, under the Institutes of their famous Philosophers, and in their Times, that Aeschylus, and Sophocles also, had a Tragedy publickly acted upon the Stage, called the "Pederastes" Boy-Lover.
Reverend Conyers Place, Immorality of the Ancient Philosophers (1735)

[Anonymous No.20221923]

>>20221882
>Among the many Unspeakable Benefits which redound to the World from the Christian Religion, no one makes a more conspicuous Figure than the Demolition of Pederasty. That celebrated Passion, Seal’d by Sensualists, espoused by Philosophers, enshrin’d by Kings, is now exploded with one Accord and Disown’d by the meanest Beggar. [...] Every Dabbler knows by his Classics, that it was pursu’d and prais’d with the Heighth of Liberty.
Thomas Cannon, Ancient and Modern Pederasty Investigated and Exemplify’d (1749)

>Before the Pelopnesian [sic] war, an aera fatal to their virtue, what nation, what country, produced so many virtuous and great men? Yet the taste of the Greeks for the most indecent and unnatural lust is well known; and the most virtuous of the Greeks, according to our ideas of morality, would have been looked upon in Europe as most wicked and contemptible debauchees.
Franz Swediauer, The Philosophical Dictionary, Vol. I (1786)

>But even Aristides, is said to have been addicted to the unnatural lust for boys. What can one say of a people, where this abominable vice was not even discountenanced? For my own part, when I find such a man as Aristides charged with it, I lament his living in those days. And I regret, that his otherwise unblemished name, should be contaminated by the infamous practice of his country.
Francis Dobbs, Second Volume of Universal History (1788)

[Anonymous No.20221925]

>>20221058
You're a dumb degenerate watching Netflix and grooming kids, we're talking about warriors and philosophers. Dude you even connected the word gay which previously was completely positive to your gross shit-eating, turning it into an insult and an adverb for the weak and detestable.

Just take the L and keep your shit to yourself.

[Anonymous No.20221928]

>>20221859
Catholic priests rape just as much as school teachers or Boy Scouts do. In fact public schools probably have a higher rate of sexual abuse than the Church. It’s a minority of priests who don’t reflect the Church as a whole. Of course the media focus exclusively on the Church simply because it’s a stumbling block to their new world order.

[Anonymous No.20221929]

>>20221771
> A dog will hump anything in sight when it’s horny. It doesn’t follow that bestiality or having sex with chair legs is natural.
Bestiality is natural insofar as animals like seals dogs etc. regularly engage in it. Anyway, a lot of animals form lifelong same-sex pairings, like swans, penguins, etc. and about 20% of male rams are exclusively homosexual. Male black swan pairings have more children survive (one of them will mate with a female and then drive her off once she gives birth) because two males can protect their young better than one male and one female.

[Anonymous No.20221932]

>>20221925
>we're talking about warriors and philosophers
The two gayest professions on earth

>The erotic relation of men to youths was the necessary and sole preparation, to a degree unattainable to our comprehension, of all manly education (pretty much as for a long time all higher education of women was only attainable through love and marriage). All idealism of the strength of the Greek nature threw itself into that relation, and it is probable that never since have young men been treated so attentively, so lovingly so entirely with a view to their welfare (virtus) as in the fifth and sixth centuries B.C.— according to the beautiful saying of Holderlin: “denn liebend giebt der Sterbliche vom Besten”. The higher the light in which this relation was regarded, the lower sank intercourse with women.
Friedrich Nietzsche, Human All Too Human 259

>Plato goes further. He says with an innocence possible only for a Greek, not a "Christian," that there would be no Platonic philosophy at all if there were not such beautiful youths in Athens: it is only their sight that transposes the philosopher's soul into an erotic trance, leaving it no peace until it lowers the seed of all exalted things into such beautiful soil
Friedrich Nietzsche, Twilight of the Idols chapter 8, 23

[Anonymous No.20221933]

>>20221928
This.

[Anonymous No.20221937]

>>20221928
No it’s because the Catholic Church protects priests, directs them to new parishes, and treats abuse victims like shit

[Anonymous No.20221939]

>>20221932
None dislikes Freddie Mercury, but none likes you. Think about it dumbass.

[Anonymous No.20221940]

>>20221929
It’s totally irrelevant. The worst argument homos have come up with. You can look to the animal world to justify all sorts of degenerate practices. Alligators eat their own kids, should we? Birds throw their kids from cliffs in order to test which ones are strong enough to fly. Cats torture their prey and play with it while it’s squirming and screaming. Humans are rational beings, we have a direct sense of the Good. It’s telling that out of all the points against homosexuality I made, you could only address the animal issue, which I never even said was significant.

[Anonymous No.20221947]

>>20221940
You're wasting your time on a dumb coomer. He already knows, he just has to cope because he's too weak to act (change or suicide).

[Anonymous No.20221950]

>>20221929
Man, you know what you’re defending is evil when you have to look to wild animals for an example of it. I could defend murder or rape with this same argument you’re using

[Anonymous No.20221954]

>>20221815

[Anonymous No.20221957]

>>20221099
>Greeks forcefully castrated boys so that they remain feminine
Holy shit based no faggotry

>Woman born in a man's body willingly undergoes HRT
Noooo SJW faggotry brainwash propaganda help me /pol/man

[Anonymous No.20221958]

>>20221937
It’s honestly disheartening how many times I have to address this same issue. It’s like you people have read one anti-Catholic article on this issue but have never heard the other side.
First of all, the prevailing philosophy back then was that you could cure sexual perversion through therapy. This was reflected in other institutions as well as the Church. The Church attempted to enforce its own internal discipline on priests for a time but then it became clear that this wasn’t working, so Pope John Paul II made it mandatory for all allegations to be turned over to the local police authorities. The scandal of “shuffling priests around” was solved by John Paul II when he made that change.

[Anonymous No.20221959]

>>20221940
Anon, I am not saying “homosexuality is natural therefore it is good.” You are the one that said “homosexuality is unnatural therefore it is bad.” I am just disputing that assertion

[Anonymous No.20221966]

>>20221958
I used to be a Catholic dude — a devout convert and not a cradle Catholic. My criticism isn’t because of anti-Catholicism. It’s a genuine criticism most Catholics agree with and have to come to terms with. You should be aware of John Paul II’s failures in this area. Not saying he’s a demon or not a good person, just flawed like everyone else

[Anonymous No.20221967]

>>20221900
>The institution of Christian marriage
http://rantswithintheundeadgod.blogspot.com/2019/04/american-atheism-and-monstrous-lie-of.html


"What conservative American Christians care about isn’t the substance of Christian theology, but a libertarian ethos that Ronald Reagan was able to frame with superficial theistic rhetoric as an extension of the Republicans’ southern electoral strategy.
<...>
On the face of it, Christianity is antithetical to all of Reagan’s policies, not to mention to Nixon’s or Trump’s. Jesus was a pacifist who advocated the abandonment of efforts to achieve worldly success, on account of the alleged nearness of God’s kingdom which shall make worldly winners—i.e. the ancient Romans who lorded it over the captive Jews—look like foolish losers. The last will be first and the first will be last (Matt.20:16). Jesus said the rich should give away their possessions, since it’s hard for them to avoid the temptation of idolizing their wealth and worldly power.
And everything Paul said about what was misconstrued much later as “family values,” about how Christians should conduct their sex lives in a godly manner was said under the assumption that the world was soon to end. Behold 1 Cor.7:29-34! After talking on and on about the proper sexual relations between the married, the unmarried, the divorced, widows, virgins, and so on, Paul comes to the crux (with my emphases):

What I mean, brothers and sisters, is that *the time is short*. From now on those who have wives should live as if they do not; those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. *For this world in its present form is passing away*. I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord. But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife—and his interests are divided.

So here we have a Michael Knowles pontificating about how the religious are happier and more moral than atheists. And then we actually read the New Testament and study some Christian history and theology (atheists know more about Christianity than does the average Christian, although reading only a page or two about Christianity suffices to refute a Knowles), only to discover that “American Christianity” is an oxymoron. We find even that “conservative” Christians are further removed from any way of life that Jesus or Saint Paul would have approved of than are the do-gooder American liberals who think of themselves as secular. We discover, in short, that Knowles is a blasphemer in his own terms, that his claim to speak from a Christian standpoint while simultaneously being a rightwing American is a monstrous obscenity."

[Anonymous No.20221968]

>>20221950
You guys fail to realise it’s not gays who invoke animals it’s anti-gays. Then when we refute their argument you guys act like we think animals are moral exemplars

[Anonymous No.20221976]

>>20221958
>cure sexual perversion through therapy. This was reflected in other institutions as well as the Church
Different Catholic here. This wasn't the case, as evidenced by the laundries.
>It’s like you people have read one anti-Catholic article
Are you saying that if you read Foxe's Book of Martyrs you'd convert to prod? How easily swayed do you think people are?

[Anonymous No.20221980]

>>20221895
Men would surely use the slave boys in their household to satisfy their needs and it would be a huge dishonour to be engaged in a pederastic relationship on the passive side with someone below you in status. However, it was socially expected even for aristocratic youths to have an older man and the Greeks genuinely believed that once you grew up, you would transition to the fully male role and have no problem moving on, taking a wife and finding a boy for you to continue the pederasty but now with you as the lover instead of beloved. Take Alexander, for example, his boy Bagoas was a eunuch from that court of Darius who Alexander took for himself after his conquest of Persia.
Regarding the lofty ideals of an older man taking interest in a youth to righteously guide him towards virtue and excellence, even when this included and erotic, pederastic component (it didn't do this Sparta, and it was this element which Plato opposed), was an ideal that, I am sure, was not always lived up to and the relations between the erastes and eromonos could be alltogether base and without any virtuous love, but, the expectation was that it would include such a love. Which isn't to say that it would be nice to be "loved" that way, necessarily. It was probably often quite like the love an Afghan war-lord would give to his favourite boy, as long as he obeyed him. Especially in Alexander's court you can make that comparison.
Let me return to the essence of the matter: you're wrong, it was common, and indeed expected, that in fine society a man should take interest in a certain youth, and for the youths even also of the aristocratic classes to reciprocate an become engaged in with an older man in a special hierarchical relationship of education and pederasty. The argument that it stripped them of their manhood was, I think, one that justified the banning of sodomy later on in the Christian Roman Empire, but this was arguing against the commonly held pre-christian position that it was natural for a youth not yet having attained manhood to be used in this way and that it would not leave a lasting impact once he had reached maturity.

[Anonymous No.20221989]

>>20221968
The other anon brought up the unrestrained libido of dogs and you proceeded to bring up homosexuality in the animal kingdom as if to prove that it’s good in some way or to indirectly refute his point. Imagine having to compare your lifestyle to a fucking animal in some meek attempt to defend it.

[Anonymous No.20221997]

>Oh you like greek epics, philosophy and mythology? Then you must like me eating cum.

[Anonymous No.20222000]

>>20221966
You should also be aware that it’s a multi-billion dollar industry to sue the Catholic Church over abuse scandals, even though the same doesn’t apply to institutions such as public schools where there is even more abuse. Cardinal Pell for example was falsely imprisoned and the Church sued over false allegations. Entire organisations exist to sue the Church over these issues, and they will welcome all allegations because they get a cut. I’m not saying abuse doesn’t exist, of course it does, it will exist in any institution in which adults have authority over children, but now it is mandatory in all dioceses to take the priest off duty and report the allegations to the police if there are any. John Paul and Francis both made changes for greater transparency. They also forbade homosexuals from entering the clergy. But the media and these organisations will never be happy with this because there’s too much money and political gain in slandering the Church.

[Anonymous No.20222004]

>>20222000
>oh no, rape victims might take our filthy lucre
Good, let's see if they'll take our tea and sympathy too.

[Anonymous No.20222005]

>>20221989
You missed the larger discussion. He said Plato was right in asserting homosexuality was unnatural. I said no because his argument hinged on an ostensible lack of homosexuality in the animal kingdom, which we now know to be a false belief

[Anonymous No.20222007]

>>20221959
Natural in the Aristotelian sense, not the Darwinian.

[Anonymous No.20222010]

>>20222000
The Catholic cries out in pain as he molests you

[Anonymous No.20222015]

>>20222007
We were discussing the argument of Plato, not Aristotle. Aristotle doesn’t apply this argument against homosexuality anyway

[Anonymous No.20222024]

>>20222015
I gave you a strong argument against homosexuality and all you can do is deflect to the animal discussion.

[Anonymous No.20222028]

>>20222015
They're both very similar. Aristotle's, as far as we're aware, is just a lot more refined.

[Anonymous No.20222034]

>>20221900
...So the purpose of life is to build character? Sounds awfully close to nihilism.

[Anonymous No.20222044]

>>20222024
I’m unfortunately out of the house and cannot respond in depth. I will sketch out some main points: the idea that homosexuality doesn’t have a unitive function seems contradicted by the loving relations of many male couples and their positive experiences with it (including me). The idea that it is an unpleasant effeminising experience is an empirical claim which we can test. Consider the arguments put forth by Plato’s speakers in the Symposium about the salutary effects of erotic love between soldiers and the genuine and remarkable martial success of the Sacred Band of Thebes. Plato even though he himself repudiated the sex act recognises the constructive power of erotic love directed towards males, he just doesn’t want it consummated, because of his metaphysical belief that the beloved is merely a shadow of a greater Good which we should move on from. Many people would disagree with this idea of love, and see it as an eternal union between two people, not a promiscuous dabbling in shadows of a greater thing. We have many examples in ancient history of men sacrificing themselves for their male beloveds

[Anonymous No.20222054]

>>20222005
Well it is unnatural in the sense that the bodies of organisms are not meant to copulate in that manner.

[Anonymous No.20222055]

>>20222054
Feet are not ‘meant‘ to wear shoes or drive cars