/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.20202487]

>writes the entire history of a fictional world, from the God's creation to them leaving the the world of the living
>just so the could the the tale of a band of manlets trying to get to a mountain
>TWICE

[Anonymous No.20202921]

>>20202487
>>writes the entire history of a fictional world, from the God's creation to them leaving the the world of the living
>>just so the could the the tale of a band of manlets trying to get to a mountain and insert a couple of phrases and songs in his fictional languages

[Anonymous No.20203003]

Tolkien’s songs makes me feel better about inserting bizarre fashion ideals into my fantasy world. It’s a little cringe, but it’s honest cringe.

[Anonymous No.20203052]

>>20203003
God bless his autism.

https://youtu.be/eU0aaq5pjnQ

Hell, people published magazines about Sindarin and Quenya grammar for decades. And it paid off.

[Anonymous No.20203092]

>>20202487
the thing is, that's a meme. he had very little worked out - almost all of lotr was invented spontaneously as he went along. you can read it in his letters that he didn't know who strider was when he introduced him, he didn't know there would be a steward of gondor, he didn't know there would be ents and so on.

i don't know how people got the idea that to write fantasy you have to write ten encyclopedias worth of lore before starting chapter one when the genre's OG just made shit up as he went along. he literally came up with a funny word ("in a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit...") and just kept bullshitting.

[Anonymous No.20203098]

>>20203092
and he was damn good at it

[Anonymous No.20203108]

>>20203092
I know it is a meme, i'm just being le funny

[Anonymous No.20203125]

>>20203092
Well, duh, LotR was just a sequel to the Hobbit at the time. But by that point he had written tons of material on Beleriand - the Silmarils, Beren and Luthien, Fall of Gondolin etc which he later repurposed as the historical background for LotR.

[Anonymous No.20203225]

>>20202487
It's official

GoTchads>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>LotR cucks

[Anonymous No.20203249]

>>20203225
I cannot think of a fanbase that got cucked harder than GoT.

[Anonymous No.20203271]

>>20203052
Patrician.

[Anonymous No.20203345]

>>20203092
When you look at the individual parts, it does look like he kept rolling RPG tables to generate quests, characters, items, kingdoms etc.
In his defense, he did a good job of putting it all together in the end though, it all feels like carefully thought out world.

[Anonymous No.20203356]

>>20203092
I finally understand why I can enjoy Tolkien while hating all overly world buildy fantasy writers

[Anonymous No.20203408]

>>20203345
>it all feels like carefully thought out world.
It's steeped in Catholic and European mythology, it's not as if it was randomly generated, don't let anon give you the impression it was written piecemeal.

[S10241875 No.20203825]

>>20202487
Tolkien liked to play with only those plots and words that he adored. He was a completely unprofessional writer who could work out various plots and themes. He polished his stories all his life. He had the idea of escaping from paradise and worked on that idea until it became the Exile of the Noldor. The plot of dance and love - The story of Beren and Lúthien, where he conveyed his romantic relationship with his wife. The story of the cursed swordsman (here the influence of the Finnish and German epic) - Children of Hurin. The story of the fall of the City is the fall of Gondolin. The story of a seafarer among the stars - Eärendil.* And this developed from the sketches of 1915-17 until his death in 1973, that is, almost 60 (!) years, if we take from the first verse about Earendil. At the same time, there was an endless enumeration of names, many characters changed names, details of history, forms: prose or poetry, alliteration and ley, etc.
When Tolkien began to be tormented by a dream about Atlantis, he created a story about the sinking of the island, which resulted in Quenta Akallabêth.
In the late 1920s, Tolkien had a story about a halfling and a mountain, and it was embodied in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. We must remember that he dreamed of rewriting the Hobbit again after the release of The Lord of the Rings, so that we would have The Hobbit v2.0.
This explains the physiological inability of Tolkien to write "The New Shadow" - his mind simply did not work out the appropriate plot.

*Stories about Gondolin and Eärendil close the niche in the Legendarium that we have Iliad and Odyssey = Siege of the City and Wandering (see Borges - El Oro del Los Tigres, although he did not like Tolkien)

[Anonymous No.20203856]

>>20202487
Based as fuck tolkien

[Anonymous No.20204180]

>>20202487
>>TWICE
top fucking kek
it really is mad isn't it

[Anonymous No.20204234]

>>20202487
Literally Chris-chan except people take it seriously due to him being a slimey limey living before color photography.

[Anonymous No.20204607]

>>20203225
>Game of Trannies is better than LOTR kino

[Anonymous No.20204614]

>>20202487
He’s too based for this board. Thanks for proving that.

[Anonymous No.20205943]

>>20203825
>The New Shadow
First time hearing about this, very interesting!

[S10241875 No.20206649]

>>20205943
Tolkien began sketching a sequel to The Lord of the Rings. The setting is Gondor in the fourth age, about 120 years after the War of the Ring. Magic left Middle-earth and people began to doubt the reality of the events of the Third Age, young Gondorians play "orcs" (punks?). Meanwhile, the "Satanic Religion" (Cult of Sauron or Morgoth?) is resurgent in secret, so it would be a book about a conspiracy and its exposure and destruction. And Tolkien decided very early on that such a story was not worth his effort.
Sketches are in "The Peoples of Middle-earth".
This may be structurally similar to the story of Sauron corrupting the Númenóreans, which is summarized in Akallabêth, but it was supposed to be set in the novel The Lost Road, which Tolkien also promised to write for Clive Lewis, but again abandoned.

[Anonymous No.20206658]

Fuck maybe I'm just misremembering things but I thought it was the exact opposite

[Anonymous No.20206663]

>>20206658
A mountain was trying to get into some manlets and that resulted in them recording the entire history of their known world twice?

[Anonymous No.20206671]

>>20206649
It sounds really cool tee be eych

[Anonymous No.20206719]

>>20203092
They are probably Sanderson readers so they don't know what world building means.

[Anonymous No.20206723]

>>20203225
8/10 bait, well done anon

[Anonymous No.20206750]

>>20203092
>he didn't know who strider was when he introduced him
The original plan was fucking bizarre. Instead of Aragorn, he was going to be a Hobbit called Trotter, who has wooden feet because the original ones were cut off by orcs.
Saruman and the whole Wizard order only came about because Tolkien needed a reason for Gandalf not to meet up with Frodo on time.

[Anonymous No.20206829]

>>20206750
>he was going to be a Hobbit called Trotter, who has wooden feet because the original ones were cut off by orcs
HAHAHA

[Anonymous No.20206912]

>>20206750
Every author has a different twist to how they were going to tell the story. It's called a creative process. None of this damages Tolkien. Cope.

[Anonymous No.20206932]

>>20206912
I don't get the impression anon was dissing Tolkien, just sharing what he knows

[Anonymous No.20206953]

>>20203092
Yeah he also spent around 15 years after publishing answering letter written to him to answer plot holes and inconsistencies leftist meme tier rants.
>no Sauron wasnt diminished even though I said he put his power into the ring, because, uhm
>10000 words later

[Anonymous No.20206971]

>>20206829
Yeah, I think he didn't have the tone of the story worked out from the beginning. Probably something closer to The Hobbit in atmosphere is my guess, until he figured out what kind of story he was going to tell. He made it all fit well enough in the final product.
In his first conception of Frodo, the character was called Bingo Bolger-Baggins. Imagine a guy called Bingo starving on the wastelands of Mordor.

[Anonymous No.20206988]

>>20206953
Wait but if he can just put his power into a ring and then that ring will amplify his power without taking any of it away in the long term why wouldn't Sauron just create 10 rings of power? Also after he lost the first one why couldn't he just make another? even if he wasn't at full strength yet he could've just mate a weaker version to help him until he got the OG back

[Anonymous No.20206991]

>>20202487
Why does everything with this fucker take so long?
Between the last alliance and the war of the ring 3000 years passed, like thats such a ridiculously long time, 3000 years ago civilzation was just recovering from the Bronze Age collapse. What was everybody doing all this time? How does Gondor even still exist and why didnt Mordor turn into a lush paradise in all that time without Sauron? Why not make it 300 years so its actually believable?
But the best thing is still Gandalf taking 17 years doing... something to be "sure" its the one ring. Like duh, its turning Bilbo invisible and tempts him to be a crack addict, also if you put it in a fire it doesnt heat up and the ring poem shows up, like what else did he need? Why couldnt he hurry when he knew Sauron was coming back?
Tolkiesn chronology is dogshit.

[Anonymous No.20206998]

>>20206991
imagine my shock

[Anonymous No.20207007]

>>20206988
Uhm yeah sweety, that was explained in letter 291 to Mrs. Williams written on October 28 1969 on a rainy afternoon, with around 2 mph of westwards wind as he was smoking Capstan from his third pipe which was gifted to him by Mr. Hotchkiss in 1958 on a visit to France.

[Anonymous No.20207022]

>>20207007
https://youtu.be/QT13kk8HDDo

[Anonymous No.20207044]

>>20206988
This is your brain on brandon sanderson. Take your magical power levels out of literature please. People that get caught up on the history and lore of middle earth and forget the focus of the stories. They feel like they have demystify every yesteryear in the series. Now I'm sure Tolkien encourages this for people that read the expanded universe or whatnot. But it's not the point of lord of the rings.

[Anonymous No.20207050]

>the Swiss make an oath to the king of Gondor to fight for him
>Jackson is a hack because he makes them fight for the king of Gondor to fulfill their oath
>Tolkien is a genius for making them spook pirates of their ships and then disappear
Reminder that Tolkien had the ring destroyed by Gollum tripping over instead of it being doomed by its own evil.

[Anonymous No.20207054]

>>20207044
They feel they have to demystify every mystery in the series*

[Anonymous No.20207082]

>>20207044
>Take your magical power levels out of literature please
Tolkien was the one that started talking about putting power in rings and oh no it didn't effect his actual power level. You can't just say shit like that and then fuck off without expecting people to be confused. Hell I still don't even know what magical power the ring even increased in Sauron.

[Anonymous No.20207083]

>>20206971
Bingo Bolger Baggins, I don't want to leave the shire, oh no no no no no...

[Anonymous No.20207116]

>>20203345
He definetly thought he whole thing through but I also think he wasnt prepared for the huge popularity of his work and fans writing him letters trying to have every throw away line explained with the lore.
>ok so why did Smeagol turn into a weird schizophrenic creature but Bilbo didnt?
Because uhm... you have to wear it for a while before that happens
>how did Sauron keep control of the Nazgul without the one ring?
uhm yea... because he had their rings, no you dont need the master ring if you have their rings
>then why didnt he use the dwarven rings to control them after taking them back
Because uhm.... Dwarves only care bout mining gold
>What if Gandalf took the ring
He would become evil
>but shouldnt he be immune as an Maia
No, Sauron is more powerful because, yeah he is just

[Anonymous No.20207128]

>>20207116
>but shouldn't he be immune as an Maia
Wasn't it that he would actually use the ring to defeat Sauron and then basically become a totalitarian god to enforce his sense of justice?

[S10241875 No.20207196]

>>20206991
I would say this is such a "paradise time", which flows more slowly than our "fast time".In the Bible, the Patriarchs of Antediluvian mankind lived for a very long time, hundreds of years, even more than a thousand, apparently bearing in themselves the memory of the "paradise time", when there was no death and life was not measured in years. In Indian mythology, in the Golden Age, people live for trillions of trillions of years, and in the Kali Yuga, only 10 years. So the "long time" of Middle-earth and the immortality of the elves, the incredibly long life of the Dunedain, dwarves, hobbits, ents (perhaps even orcs), the memory of the "paradise time". But for the more mundane Rohkhirim, a period of hundreds of years already seems like hoary antiquity.

Suppose the events of the Silmarillion from the conversation of Morgoth and Feanor to the arrival of the Noldor in Serdy-earth - it seems that according to the text it takes days, maybe a month.
In fact, it takes about 40 years. There seems to be a note from the Professor, I don’t remember where, that in Valinor time generally flows differently.
This is common in fairy tales: the hero enters the other world and spends a day there with its inhabitants, but when he returns, he finds that many, many years have passed and perhaps everyone he knew has long been dead. Compare: Rip Van Winkle.

[Anonymous No.20207222]

it´s so damn comfy shitting on tolkien and his bunch of overbearing fanboys

[Anonymous No.20207317]

>>20207082
The ring was power of manipulation of others. It only explains this the entire series. The Sauron marvel tier battle in the film is a Peter Jackson interpretation only. Sauron was probably just a really competent warrior who employed his army through tempting his allies under his manipulation.

[Anonymous No.20208638]

>>20206649
Honestly if someone had picked it up and continued it in the 60's 70's and 80's I could see a character based on the serial killers of the era as "saurons/morgoth's emissary" and a new cult being formed around that.

[Anonymous No.20208844]

>>20202487
guys... i need help. 1-2 years ago i read the hobbit, i thought it was a middling book and forced myself to finish it. is LOTR better in terms of quality or should i expect the same?

[Anonymous No.20208891]

>>20203225
Westeros as a setting is better and more interesting than Middle Earth.
>oh but he just renamed Britain and added Vikings and Spain
Yet it's still 10x more interesting, just from a geographical perspective.

[Anonymous No.20208900]

why do people here shit on asoiaf so much?

[Anonymous No.20208905]

>>20208900
because we're used to reading great literature.

[Anonymous No.20208923]

>>20208900
It exists to be a direct response to Tolkien's writing style. When you realize this you start seeing levels of pettiness that probably shouldn't be there.
Its a cool series but knowing it exists because the author wanted to 1 up someone makes it sort of hollow feeling.

No one will ever believe the revisionist history that GRRM didn't shit on Tolkien intentionally.

[Anonymous No.20208932]

>>20208923
interesting, ty.

[Anonymous No.20209394]

>>20208923
this seems to apply to alot of pomo novels ive tried reading

[Anonymous No.20209461]

>>20207222
>3 ft 6 in

[Anonymous No.20209476]

>>20202487
>from the God's creation
there's no god in lotr

[Anonymous No.20209487]

>>20209461

[S10241875 No.20209614]

>>20208638
Interesting idea. Such Charles Manson.
I would like to see it a little differently. After a couple of hundred years of prosperity in Gondor, people forgot that there was magic in the world, the elves completely disappeared, the orcs and trolls died out, no one saw the ents or dragons anymore, the few remaining gnomes and hobbits are considered as degenerate branches of the human race. People review the chronicles and decide that they were written by people who were easily carried away and described the enemies of Gondor as a monster in the flesh, not to mention the tales of Numenor or elves. Archaeologists excavate ancient Mordor and discover that it was a very advanced and progressive kingdom, led by talented rulers. Young people, even among the elite of society, are addicted to the "orc" subculture with appropriate clothing, behavior and clamor. The power of the king is seen as a sad relic of the past, his claims to divine blood and kinship with the mythical elves are publicly ridiculed. There are more supporters of republican rule in the cities, and separatist tendencies are growing. There is a new generation of philosophers and scientists who are calling to discard the dusty lore books and study the world on the basis of reason and the laws of nature. an evolutionary theory appears that leaves no room for fire-breathing dragons or immortal elves, not to mention mythical creatures such as the Maiar. Books are being written in the spirit of the French enlighteners of the 18th century, calling for a radical reorganization of society and the establishment of a state "Cult of Reason". And then it turns out that behind all this are the surviving black Numenoreans, who have maintained their cult of Morgoth for thousands of years and are now preparing to poison all of humanity with it.

[Anonymous No.20209673]

>>20207222
>Pornographic film actor
lol

[Anonymous No.20209683]

>>20209476
Eru Iluvatar

[Anonymous No.20209716]

>>20203225
>GoT

[Anonymous No.20209719]

>>20203825
Fortunately for the legions of people who appreciate his work and the genres it inspired, "unprofessional" does not equal "untalented" or "unsuccessful"

[Anonymous No.20209732]

>>20203408
Sometimes I wonder about people like >>20203345. I try to imagine what it's like to only notice things on a surface level, and it spooks me.

[S10241875 No.20209769]

>>20209719
A professional writer works by the rules. Tolkien is not a professional writer, he is a genius. A genius does not follow the rules, sometimes he creates them for others.
Tolkien's attitude towards creativity: "Leaf by Niggle".