[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/lit/ - Literature

View post   
File: 233 KB, 800x520, Sontag.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
20133539 No.20133539 [Reply] [Original]

"I was assuming that a principal task of art was to strengthen the adversarial consciousness. And that led me to reach for relatively eccentric work. I took for granted that the liberal consensus about culture would stay in place, that the traditional canon of great books could not be threatened by work that was more transgressive or playful. But taste has become so debauched in the thirty years I’ve been writing that now simply to defend the idea of seriousness has become an adversarial act. Just to be serious or to care about things in an ardent, disinterested way is becoming incomprehensible to most people."

>> No.20133547

>>20133539
>Jew is outjewed
lmao

>> No.20133550

So many of these kinds of grand declarations about the state of the world really just come from writers meeting someone who defies their expectations and then getting dramatic about it.

>> No.20133577

>>20133539
This kind of feeling is very common among boomers. I know tons of people and popular artists who were very much into typical post 1960s movements or certain feelings about the world such as socialism, liberalism, hippies, transgressive art, anti-clericalism etc. which were "romantic" in the grand sense, who have abandoned these themes or called them a total failure. Its a really interesting development. The social revolution failed and made things worse and the more honest of the boomers will tell you this. I cant forget the quote of a great Italian singer-songwriter, who in a very roundabout way denounced this movement, of which he was a champion, as basically a naive failure. And there are others who feel the very same way. Bob Dylan is a commercial fraud who monetized naive rebellious feelings, perhaps an exaggeration and the truth is more grey than that, but is not that the fundamental truth of the social revolution which seema largely ephemeral in retrospect?

>> No.20133578

>>20133550
Sure, her quote is the sort of affected thing I would write in my journal only to cringe at it three weeks later. But her oeuvre is all grand declarations. I think we should judge people who write about things differently from people who write things.

>> No.20133583

>>20133577
>Bob Dylan is a commercial fraud who monetized naive rebellious feelings
he wrote a couple of songs, calm your tits

>> No.20133586

>>20133550
Not defending sontag but what's with you fags getting threatened by any "grand" analysis of culture? Nobody can say anything about Geist or the collective unconscious or whatever anymore without a bunch of faggots popping in to call them a schizo and relativize everything into their end-of-history nihilistic take on how "nothing ever happens"

>> No.20133606

>>20133586
the dictum of the times is "don't upset the vibe"

(the vibe is mumble rap and pharmacoma)

>> No.20133646

>Beauty destroyers shocked at the ugliness of the world

>> No.20133683

>>20133646
Its the spirit of people who reject(ed) Christ. They are unable to be truly creative and can only exist in a state of parasitic degeneration until they kill the host society and eventually themselves.

>> No.20133710

>>20133606
I suspect you're right.

>> No.20133754

>>20133539
So in other words, being conservative is the new punk.

>> No.20133777

>>20133754
No because punk was always meant to be mainstream and designed to keep the populace neutered

>> No.20133797

>>20133539
>transgression
if you want to commit an act of transgression, create work that praises Adolf Hitler. 1960s "counterculture" isn't any longer.

>> No.20133803

>>20133754
We have nothing to "conserve" but liberalism. Conservatives are just liberals from 10-50 years ago, depending on their flavour. It is a confused ideology based on a rootless fantasy of traditionalism. Only a god can save us.

>> No.20133812

>>20133803
>Only a god can save us.
Religious folks are almost always leftists.....

>> No.20133822

>>20133803
I cannot wait until you faggots hit your mid 20s and realize how stupid your idea of utopian social stasis is.
>just force people to be obedient harder bro
>just have more absolute authority bro
genius fuckin idea

>> No.20133837

>>20133539
>She typed this and sent it to a journal funded by the CIA

>> No.20133849

>>20133777
So in other words, being conservative is the new [radical, non-mainstream position]

>> No.20133859

>>20133849
No, the exact opposite.

>> No.20133865

>>20133859
Being a degenerate is what's mainstream. Being traditional is what's radical now.

>> No.20133888

>>20133865
No such thing as traditional. Radicalism is by its very nature mainstream.

>> No.20133893

>>20133888
>No such thing as traditional.
Yes, there is.
>Radicalism is by its very nature mainstream.
It's the opposite of mainstream.

>> No.20133901

>>20133893
Define traditionalism without using abstract terms and explain why almost every form of radicalism has become mainstream.

>> No.20133906

>>20133539
>spend your life being a subversive like
>why is the world so shitty!
Boomers got to enjoy raping society and now they enjoy being sentimental about the good ol days before they fucked everything up

>> No.20133917

>>20133901
>Define traditionalism without using abstract terms
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditionalist_conservatism
>explain why almost every form of radicalism has become mainstream.
Because certain revolutions and conflicts were won. Doesn't mean radicalism is inherently mainstream but rather that certain radical ideas later became mainstream because of historical or revolutionary major changes.

>> No.20133966

>>20133917
If you need wikipedia to formulate your ideas, then you have no ideas.

Now explain WHY radicalism keeps becoming mainstream.

>> No.20133989

>>20133966
>If you need wikipedia to formulate your ideas, then you have no ideas.
Traditionalism is a known concept, I'm not sure why you need a brand new treatise on the matter. You're the one who said "it didn't exist", without any proof.
>Now explain WHY radicalism keeps becoming mainstream.
I already told you why. There are conflicts, some are won, some are lost, some of the radical ones have been won and that's why those radical ideas became mainstream, not because they were inherently mainstream but because there was a conflict in the middle that was won and allow these radical ideas to take root in mainstream land.

>> No.20133992

>>20133906
sontag wasn't subversive in the slightest, but you don't really care about the facts do you

>> No.20134001

>>20133539
Susan Sontag was an awful critic. The Pauline Kael of cultural and literary criticism.

>> No.20134009

>>20133989
>Traditionalism is a known concept
Ah, now we are going to go back a forth, with you refusing to define the term.

>radicalism

Now explain WHY it won.

>> No.20134020

>>20134009
>Now explain WHY it won.
Goddamnit, I already told you WHY twice. Do you not read what I say?

>> No.20134021

>>20134001
kael was based tho

>> No.20134026

>>20133822
Did you even read my post? What exactly did you think I was implying?
>>20133812
Like Heidegger, the nazi I was quoting?

>> No.20134030

>>20134020
>I already told you WHY twice
No you didnt, you just string together, vague abstract term, history is not an abstraction, try again.

>> No.20134033
File: 89 KB, 850x400, quote-mozart-pascal-boolean-algebra-shakespeare-parliamentary-government-baroque-churches-susan-sontag-34-64-80.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
20134033

>>20133992
Lying faggot
>Sontag was born Susan Rosenblatt in New York City, the daughter of Mildred (née Jacobson) and Jack Rosenblatt, both Jews of Lithuanian[5] and Polish descent.

>> No.20134035

>>20134026
>Like Heidegger, the nazi I was quoting?
If religious folk, as in a group of people are usually <-- leftist, then what does this have to do with an individual.

>> No.20134039

>>20134033
meds

>> No.20134063

>>20134030
Yes, I already said why, you just didn't like the answer. Conflicts are won and the radical ideas of the victors are established while the ideas of the losers are forgotten. Although later conflicts might reverse that.

>> No.20134068

>>20134021
She was cringe and filtered by chad Kubrick.

>> No.20134077

>>20134035
First, I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding the meaning of the phrase "only a god can save us." It isn't "only religion can save us", it refers to actual divine intervention and the birth of a new mythology.
Also, where do you get the idea that most religious people are leftist? Other than the contemporary fact that most people in general are "leftist". You sound exactly like a r*dditor - "everything I don't like is [opposite side of the political spectrum from myself]." Leftists are constantly bitching about "Christian right wing antivaxxers". You're all hysterical fags.

>> No.20134082

>>20134063
>Abstractions are abstracted and the abstract abstractions of the abstractions are abstracted while the abstractions of the abstracted are abstracted. Although abstract abstractions might abstract that.

You are mentally ill.

>> No.20134118

>>20134082
>wars and battles are abstractions
>the people in the winning side is an abstraction
>the people in the winning side's causes are abstractions
??

>> No.20134227

>>20133888
>Radicalism is by its very nature mainstream.
Radicalism is almost by definition not mainstream (it's radical). The strains of pseudo-radicalism that infect culture today have the common feature of not threatening the status quo (with the possible exception of fringe academic racial activism -- but the illiberal practice of considering race for prestige, success, and advancement is already well integrated into the United States' institutions). They are not radical.

It should give it away that each "radical" position has its strong advocates in politics and business.

>> No.20134237

>>20133539
Yep. Ironically liberals were the most confident about western supremacy all along. The right saw how fragile thongs really were

>> No.20134249

>>20133583
He won the Nobel Prize.

>> No.20134253
File: 222 KB, 860x815, 1647689058366.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
20134253

>>20134082
>t.

>> No.20134256

>>20134237
bruh ur mom saw how fragile thongs really were

>> No.20134428

>>20133539
>now simply to defend the idea of seriousness has become an adversarial act.
The [redacted] revolutionary spirit has been a disaster for the literary race.

>> No.20134490

How do you guys cope with the fact that art has always been asserved to its period's foremost sentiment
>not anon what about X who fled Y and went to Z to write about how bad it was in Y
he was aligned with the Z sentiment, which was the sentiment that managed to win in that period, because you know about X and not other people.
>but what about X's work in the ABCD era, that was a masterpiece
It was a masterpiece by pure coincidence. When an era produces masterpieces it's simply because it happened to reward competition, history, or motivated people to create lasting works. In the end, the characteristic of a piece of art being a masterpiece is purely coincidental. It's like a bird that happens to have wings. That doesn't really make the bird better than other animals. It just happens to have feathers which allow it to fly, and that is beautiful, but that's just a coincidence. You cannot really say that Nature was in a better mood when creatures started to fly just because flying things are wondrous. It really just happened by chance. And so it is with masterpieces and great works imbued with humanity or whatever your favorite thing is. Since we are approaching the end, and tehnology has now entirely superseded basic functions of human beings in irrecoverable ways, all that art can be is functional. The problems that art was made to address are pretty much gone. This means that until medicines are made that make you nut like you just had the sex of your life, or just make you "feel good" like that comic with the time traveler, art will have this function of sensory/hormonal pacifier mixed with propaganda. Art will just become debauchery mixed with crony state slogans until it won't exist anymore. How do you guys cope with this reality? How do you guys cope haha it's just, you know, like a weapon now. If you walk into a museum or a bookstore right now the message that you get is "you thought you could escape?? NO ESCAPE! SAY IT, SAY YOU LOVE THE GLOBOHOMO, YOU'RE LOVIN' IT", art has become the opposite of what it was supposed to be, which was this thing that made you relate to and humanize others. Now it's made to dehumanize you, and make you feel alone and alienated. How do you cope with this stuff? Was I mistaken all my life putting all these stakes on "art"; I could draw a comparison with the "science" people, that also was attractive and it looked great but look what it's become. I don't know, bros. When I think about this shit and how inevitable it is and how everyone but me seems to enjoy this so much I just want to go to sleep.

>> No.20134500

>>20133577
>commercial fraud
please clarify this, pretty sure everybody who bought bob dylan's records knew what they were getting (well, except maybe self-portrait)

>> No.20134512

Don't worry the weight of the world crushes everything

>> No.20134521

>>20134490
meds

>> No.20134531

>>20133539
Am I the only one that feels immense bloodlust whenever Jews speak or show their ugly phenotypes?

>> No.20134550

>>20134500
bob dylan is a "commercial fraud" because he evolved as an artist and didn't stay in some crammed new york SRO eating canned beans with the other noble losers of the folk revival

>> No.20134565

>>20134500
>>20134550
Bob Dylan was a plagiarist, which is typical of shlomo k's. His agent shared lyrics from other writers he rejected.

>> No.20134570

>>20134565
Is there any concrete proof of this or just an urban legend?

>> No.20134571

>>20134531
No, normal people aren’t Nazi psychopaths

>> No.20134575
File: 29 KB, 600x733, 1638410674697.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
20134575

>>20134565

>> No.20134579

>>20134082
nigger

>> No.20134581

It's hilarious that this board and clueless zoomers in general single out boomers as being some kind of epoch-breaking generation that has never before been seen. The notion that there's some sort of continuity between 1945 and everything that came before is ridiculous. The changes of 1945 to 1975 pale drastically in comparison to those of, say, 1818 to 1848 as the emerging capitalist system ruthlessly swept away virtually all aspects of society that had come before it in western europe, all that was holy was profaned. Or of 1880 to 1910 as imperialism spread capitalism to every corner of the earth, basically ripping premodern societies out of the womb and thrusting them into the modern age. What exactly did boomers do that was so revolutionary? Drink coca cola and drive a car? Stop being angry at your parents for bringing you into existence and do something with your life.

>> No.20134594

>>20134490
You're right, it's over, it's over, it's over. We're left behind and demonised while the world moves onto the technocratic McNetflix™ LGTBQ+BLM """pleasure""" dome

>> No.20134606

>>20134531
you should be ashamed

>> No.20134613

>>20134571
They are psychopathic towards less harmful races like Russians, Iranians, and Venezuelans.
>>20134570
>>20134575
There are so many sources on it, you stupid kikes. Here's one I just found.
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet-books/2017/06/bob-dylan-faces-plagiarism-accusationsagain#:~:text=%22Perhaps%20it%20was%20just%20a,and%20in%20passages%20from%20Mr.

>> No.20134615

>>20134033
>being a jew automatically means youre subversive
no

>> No.20134624

>>20134606
Nah, Jews wouldn't even exist if it weren't for the mistakes of my ancestors, so I feel more of a religious duty to call for their ethnic cleansing and correcting the error of my misguided ancestors.

>> No.20134627

>>20133547

Yeah, it's almost as if she isn't a part of any vast conspiracy you can blame your failure as a man on.

>> No.20134631

>>20134613
lmao who cares about the nobel lecture he didn't even want to deliver. let's hear more about those lyrics his "agent" supposedly shared

>> No.20134637

>>20134033
Looks like a ghoul "disguised" in human skin. Is that from too much infant blood infusion?

>> No.20134646

>>20134631
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/bob-dylans-greatest-lyrical-thefts-189862/amp/

>> No.20134662

>>20134646
>paraphrasing movies
>plagiarism
you're not even clutching at straws here, buddy. they've slipped away. in fact, it's becoming increasingly clear you never had them in your grasp in the first place

>> No.20134675

>>20134662
I lost the source where his agent admitted he shared lyrics he rejected to Bob Dylan. That's the issue. I am unable to find it on either Google or Yandex anymore. It's like they're trying to hide it.

>> No.20134682

>>20133539
The Volcano Lover is trash.

>> No.20134739

>>20134521
dilate

>> No.20134774

>>20134675
All I can find is
https://dissidentvoice.org/2013/12/bob-dylan-and-plagiarism/
Ctrl+F "James Damiano"

>> No.20134784

>>20134627
whats your excuse

>> No.20134803

>>20134581
They created a bunch of social movements that failed but left their children with the aftermath to clean up.

>> No.20134832

>>20134581
if you hate capital so much get off your [pc, retard hypocrite. better plant those potatoes

>> No.20134881

>>20134832
what does it say about your politics when they can be refuted by a cartoon?

>> No.20135355

>>20133606
>mumble rap
Rap is dying and rock is coming back. Get with the times.

>> No.20135359

Early life.

>> No.20135362

>>20133754
Punk was never "punk" to begin with.