Does knowledge = virtue?

[Anonymous No.20047839]

Socrates raised this question in the Apology. Well, what do you think, /lit/?
>Virtue is the ability to do things well, especially with the long-term outcome in mind, and knowledge is what enables virtue plus the recognition of being able to tell the difference.
>Nobody would want to do things poorly if they knew they could do things well, what the consequences would mean, and the point of doing virtue for its own sake.
>If you do unvirtuous things, you clearly do them out of some form of ignorance through your intentions, praxis, lack of know-how, etc.

Yeah, your "free agency" would be somewhat limited by perfect virtue, but only in the sense that you would never desire carrying out unvirtuous actions. There's plenty of virtuous actions remaining, and why would you want to do something poorly, do something evil, etc.? Your free will is still there.

[Anonymous No.20049191]

>>20047839
Nah, ethics and rationality aren't necessarily related. You can insist your ethics be rational but that is an ethical judgment in and of itself.

[Anonymous No.20049864]

>>20047839
> Socrates raised this question in the Apology
And literally every other book by Plato. In the Laws plato even argues that nobody ever willingly commits evil, and this is a core doctrine in Neoplatonism. Of course for Plato knowledge is not just basic bitch knowledge like you think of it. Plato believed that Knowledge was achieved by purifying the body of the soul because the soul is an emanation from intellect but has two parts, the intellective part which it descends from and the “part” of it that “inhabits” or pervades corporeal things. The Soul was made by the divine Intellect (see, timaeus) whereas the corporeal world is an emanation from soul and is therefore inferior to both Soul and Intellect because all emanations are inferior to what they emanate from (see also timaeus and the first few books of Plotinus’s Ennead 5). Soul can purify itself of body to achieve knowledge which is not related to calculative reasoning or discursive reasoning when truly in the intelligible world because intelligibles are eternal and eternally identical to themselves and contain no propositions. The reason this is good is because intellect basically circles around the good and imitates it as the first emanation from the Good so Soul becomes closer to the Good by transcending to intellect. Also, free will is a modern concept and it doesn’t at all play into this argument. Read the Laws, read On Virtue and On Happiness by Plotinus

[Anonymous No.20049875]

>>20049864
>achieved by purifying the body of the soul
The soul of the body*
Plotinus in On Virtue demonstrates that virtue purification and that the civic virtues are not true virtue but merely prerequisites and also the result of true virtue which is purification which leads to the unity of the soul with its intellective parts which brings it knowledge of the Good

[Anonymous No.20051308]

>>20047839
bump

[Anonymous No.20051666]

>>20049864
Thanks for this brethren, a terrific sermon, truly

[Anonymous No.20051672]

>>20049864
Thanks for the nice post friend

[Anonymous No.20051712]

>>20049875
It's amazing that the gross animal of man can more and less naturally come to similar conclusions across space and cultures.

We can easily be vile blobs of chaos and degradation, we can be leaching and leering, our minds could be scrambled,and we could admire vampires and mosquitos, and many of us do, but a many seem attracted, called, understanding of the beauty of virtue, honor, the intellect, the good; the qualities of giving oneself to the qualities of getting in return, the state of being; do they all know from experiment, from face value, that by going against the good, they feel bad, and disturbed, that to work with it, they feel good,uplifted, pure, continously involved with a betterment; what of these particular men, beautiful noble men, who so know the value and valor of accepting these conditions, to not lie, cheat and steal when they no they can, to not harm, to not necessarily be perfectly always purely good, but to so greatly be on its side, the diminishings are all but negligible.

In all sorts of countries in all sorts of times; boys seeing the possible paths of men, grappled over their means and manners for the whole of their life; grappled, or learned a trick or two to grapple less with self, to give into good, it's wider more refreshing more fulfilling currents; the tides, the good tidings, largely humanity's course, as large and loud as the dimnesses may appear, much more many fold is the general form, of pleasent disposition, and happy, beneficial order, of dedications to beauty and genius, abundant healthy happy life and love

[Anonymous No.20051721]

>>20049875
It's amazing that the gross animal of man can more and less naturally come to similar conclusions across space and cultures and time.

We can easily be vile blobs of chaos and degradation, we can be leaching and leering, our minds could be scrambled,and we could admire vampires and mosquitos, and many of us do, but a many seem attracted, called, understanding of the beauty of virtue, honor, the intellect, the good; the qualities of giving oneself to the qualities of getting in return, the state of being; do they all know from experiment, from face value, that by going against the good, they feel bad, and disturbed, that to work with it, they feel good,uplifted, pure, continously involved with a betterment; what of these particular men, beautiful noble men, who so know the value and valor of accepting these conditions, to not lie, cheat and steal when they no they can, to not harm, to not necessarily be perfectly always purely good, but to so greatly be on its side, the diminishings are all but negligible.

In all sorts of countries in all sorts of times; boys seeing the possible paths of men, grappled over their means and manners for the whole of their life; grappled, or learned a trick or two to grapple less with self, to give into good, it's wider more refreshing more fulfilling currents; the tides, the good tidings, largely humanity's course, as large and loud as the dimnesses may appear, much more many fold is the general form, of pleasent disposition, and happy, beneficial order, of dedications to beauty and genius, abundant healthy happy life and love

[Eman Nep No.20051901]

>>20051721
It is beautiful that a man can know of the good and choose it of his own accord. Weigh it's value,look at himself, look at the world, know of his infinite potentials good and bad, and not out of fear of punishment or cowardice, or force, but to genuinely see and say within him, this is the best of me, this is the best for me, I am honored and thrilled to be a part of this group, I am happy to be on the same team on this same page.

Regular boys and men, complete strangers, complete citizens, complete spectres of time, completly confounding mysteries, complete statues and masks, to know and life in and of flesh and blood like you and me, to eat and bathroom, to drink and sex, to see trees and smell air, to smell flowers and see bees, and conclude obviously, to be a good and well man, a decent man. To be a part of the total flow of good, traversing all if history, constructing all bridges and hospitals and universities in it's wake.

To love Gods earthly food and love so much to dedicate your life to the degrees of doctorhood and the mind strains of math and science, to fill yourself so full overflowing with the helpful truths of beautiful and gorgeous and genius nature.

A boy, a man, like any other, randomly bursting in, sprouting in this field of life, and with out question accepts it as good, and beautiful, and noble. Obviously dawns the cloak of nature and the fruits of man as if they were tailored to his body and soul. His insides harmonize with the tremendous orders of the outsides, and all souls sweetly sing. He is in the groove, in the grove, on the path, flying downhill, sprinting uphill, all is smooth and in stride and pure, moving in complete floating lockstep with the rhythems of the higher world, always closing in on his potential, right there always at grasp, constantly flowing through an out doing, flowering through a doing with out; surely that a man, a strange creature of desire, envy, hatred, lust, can put all possible evils aside, to maintain the elimination of all possible monkey travestys he is capable of, to continously dwell in the realm of the pleseant, the worthy, the graceful, the awe inspiring, the glorious, the good

[Eman Nep No.20051970]

>>20049864
>>20051721
>>20051901
Man is a vessal for the beauty of good or the ugliness of bad to permeate through him and make the world

[Anonymous No.20051991]

>>20047839
What word did Plato use for 'knowledge' in that context? I cannot have this discussion because the English word for 'knowledge' is way too flabby and vague. You can have 'knowledge' of a K-pop group's discography. I'm going to make a bold assumption that's not the kind of knowledge Plato was alluding to.

[Anonymous No.20052249]

>>20047839
>There's plenty of virtuous actions remaining, and why would you want to do something poorly, do something evil, etc.? Your free will is still there.
Because base and destructive acts are easier and ask less of one then noble and constructive acts. Being bad and evil is simple and easy, and rewarding, I can hurt others and feel good. It requires effort to do good, and I don't know if I will feel good or be adequately rewarded for doing so, I would have to muster up the energy to be proud of my goodness, in order to motivate to be good, and commiting to that path, what if one day I don't feel up to the challenge, then i would be considered a failure and feel bad, why would I want to do something more challenging, scary, in which I may fail and feel bad and be inadequately rewarded, when I can not think or worry about anything at all, take as much l
pleasure as possibly as I can, hurt others to make myself feel better, direct immediate proof being in comparison to them, and not worry about failure or shame?

[Anonymous No.20052295]

>>20049875
to be clear rationalists do not prove anything

[Anonymous No.20053545]

>>20052249
Anyone respond?

[Anonymous No.20053603]

>>20052295
platonism is beyond rationalism because it assumes a super rational principle (the one). As in beyond rational. The One doesn’t think or have intellect. A rationalist makes intelect their principle, which is folly because it’s quite obvious especially if you look at modern mathematics that intellect has to have something prior to it

[Anonymous No.20054008]

>>20052249
>>20053545
Yeah but that's the problem. It's easier to do the bad thing. But why would you want to do the bad thing? Because, out of ignorance, you think it's better than the good thing.
>I don't know if I will feel good or be adequately rewarded for doing so
That's the problem. A question of faith, of time-preference, etc. But if you know strongly enough, on the fullest timeline you can possibly conceive, you're never going to diverge from the path, are you?

[Anonymous No.20054184]

>>20054008
>it's easier to do the bad thing
no it's not. this is also ignorance.

[Anonymous No.20054237]

>>20047839
>>20049191
I think by implication, knowledge = virtue would have a less ethical meaning. The formula as it stands reads as though having knowledge enables one to know how to practice virtue, but flip the formula to virtue = knowledge, and a more amoral character emerges. Wisdom becomes not just the chief virtue but the whole of virtue.

[Anonymous No.20054527]

>>20054184
>>it's easier to do the bad thing
>no it's not. this is also ignorance
It's easier to kick a small child in the mouth for me, than to give him $10 dollars:

Giving him $10 dollars hurts me, I lose, I become lesser from it, I become in a state of fear and shock and poverty.

By kicking in the mouth I feel happy and good, I am gaining pleasure, I am lessening the ability of a competitor, I am winning and that makes me feel well

[Anonymous No.20054568]

>>20054527
So we see it all becomes a matter of the creation of teams. If the parent of the child saw you doing this they would confront you. Your chosen act of violence would begat violence, and possibly lead to your unexistence.

The parent is on a team; a team of parents who would respond equally to s stranger kicking thier child; the many similar ones, unite to form a group, vastly multiplying their force and power and prevention of such acts ever occuring;. They dont want to, hopefully don't like to create violence from thin air like you seem to like, but they are forced to prevent violence being caused in their group.

The world is not composed of One singularly visioned group agreeing on the terms and conditions of all possible acceptable actions and reactions; thus when different groups interact there is degrees of violence, degrees of tension and dissonance.

[Anonymous No.20054579]

>>20054527
>hurts me, I lose, I become lesser from it, I become in a state of fear and shock and poverty.
that's because you're ignorant
>By kicking in the mouth I feel happy and good, I am gaining pleasure, I am lessening the ability of a competitor, I am winning and that makes me feel well
that's because you're ignorant

[Anonymous No.20054587]

>>20047839
knowledge gives you the ability to practise virtue consistently, but it would be totally possible to commit many virtuous acts despite lacking knowledge

[Anonymous No.20054603]

>>20047839
Knowledge is responsibility.

[Anonymous No.20054693]

>>20054587
>but it would be totally possible to commit many virtuous acts despite lacking knowledge
Possible, but how probable? Which way to cause more probable?

[Anonymous No.20054698]

>>20054579
Ignorant of what? And how does one act of ignorance forever harm the whole of me? Surely some could, but are you claiming all deffinitly do?

[Anonymous No.20054709]

>>20054587
>knowledge gives you the ability to practise virtue consistently,
A big part that may be lacking in this thread discussion is touching upon: what knowledge, what types of knowledge?

2+2= 4
The grass is green

Now I'm virtuous?

I know If I rub my penis on this chair it feels good

I possess knowledge, now I'm virtuous?

[Anonymous No.20054713]

>>20054698
>pleasure = good
>or pleasure is at least good for me
>pleasurable things are "easier" to do
>bad actions produce pleasure
>bad actions produce good feelings
>Having money is good for me
>Winning makes me feel good, even better than doing good things does
>If my body is harmed, that is bad
>If my psychological mind is harmed, that is bad
etc etc. all these things are wrong

[Anonymous No.20054751]

>>20054709
you need to have developed a position on things like qualities (grass is green) and causality (rub penis -> feels good) in order to practice virtue. all those examples of knowledge would help you to practice virtue. if you didn't know what causality was, how could you make judgments about which actions to take?