/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.20043247]

I can't pretend anymore, I realized that my reading on religion/spirituality is just escapism and I've been kidding myself the whole time. I don't actually believe in anything. Deep down I can't shake the impression that it's all copes. I feel like I should just live but I don't know how, I still feel a void in me that nothing has been able to fill.

I'm tired of reading about religion and metaphysics, are there books that will help ground me and relax, distance myself and start anew? Fiction maybe?

[Anonymous No.20043263]

>>20043247
>is just escapism
No books. You have to start acting. Assess your strengths and resources, choose a reasonable, achievable goal, and start acting.
t. was in exactly the same rut until recently

[Anonymous No.20043264]

>>20043263
>choose a reasonable, achievable goal
This is where I fail. There's nothing I really want to achieve, acquire or strive towards.

[Anonymous No.20043289]

>>20043247
Yeah I feel the same. I feel a bit dumb for getting into it as hard as I did but on the other hand I was very desperate. Unless you're incredibly sheltered from modern reality and taught to believe in God as a kid it's practically impossible to develop any kind of faith. It's just too obvious that there is no God and the schizophrenia tier mental gymnastics one has to pull off to justify why miracles stopped happening or why the Hebrew God or the Indian God among the countless true Gods across history is the one and actual true God are just too much.
I fully understand that religion fills a spot that science and humanism cannot possibly make up for even though people worship science and humanism very much like a religion now, but it's hard to be religious out of necessity; it's very much an emotional thing and you just gotta have faith in the end.
After a couple years of torturing myself trying to believe and forcing myself to think that there are incorporeal entities regulating this shit world, all-powerful entities whose actions are yet completely irrelevant because in the end it's 100% the actions of men who decide where the world goes; that saints and priests have the Holy Spirit and can do miracles to prove that God exists, but won't do it even if proof would convert millions of people, and they'd rather diddle kids or hoard money instead, but I am still supposed to believe in the institution, but actually I shouldn't take the institution too seriously, and I shouldn't need miracles even though God used them freely in the past when people needed little to no convincing; that alternatively you reincarnate and other shit that is obviously untrue, because all signs point that human beings are just beasts and horrible ones too, that they're more like a pest upon this world than an exalted godly species. It's too much. I gave up. If there is no God then I resign that there is none, and if there is in fact a God I assume that he decided I'm not worthy or for whatever obscure reason I should be condemned to Hell or whatever there is in the afterlife, even though I wished very much to retain some kind of faith.
Oh well. The worst thing is that I have an innate morality so I cannot push myself to embrace whatever is happening right now, I'll always be very morally conservative and principled so I'm basically fucked for no reason at all.

[Anonymous No.20043295]

>>20043247
Just reading about certain religious and spiritual ideas is, as you said, escapism. The point is to live by it, to be fully in faith in every moment.

[Anonymous No.20043305]

>>20043289
You really outlined the arbitrariness of it all, it's what put me off too. It's true that the only genuine believers I've ever known were people who were raised as such. For someone who's been raised irreligious/agnostic there's not much to be done, you can try as hard as you want but in the end the underlying doubt will remain, and it only takes a single moment of taking a step back from what you've been doing to be hit with the realization that you've been basically doing what amounts to brainwashing yourself and that everything you've devoted such time and energy to is meaningless, manmade and essentially just boils down to coping mechanisms. But I'm not sure what the next step is after that. Hedonistic abandonment is only a viable path for the extraverted people who enjoy all of the world's pleasures, and even then, it still seems like a dead end.

[Anonymous No.20043319]

>>20043264
Start by thinking about you basic desires. Give up your pride and preconceived notions of what you "should" want. What is something you desire viscerally?
For me it was esteem from other men. I know it sounds vain, but it is what it is. Cicero himself said it was the main motivator for men. I just viscerally don't want to be seen or treated like a loser. I want to be known as someone in life, and struggle for a place in the social hierarchy. Wherever you end up in, let it be your rightful place according to your talent, ability, and luck, and not a place you ended up in because you were too cowardly to act.
Thinking about your desires will make you start thinking more rationally about your future and how you want to "change" it.

[Anonymous No.20043334]

>>20043247
>, I still feel a void in me that nothing has been able to fill.
Meditate on why it's there and if you want it or don't. Books are unlikely to tell you what it is because they can only work in generalities. You might hit upon a specific one that chimes with your problem, but it's kind of a crap shoot among millions of specific possible problems a human could have.

[Anonymous No.20043345]

>>20043319
>basic desires
There are basic needs, food, shelter and comfort, freedom from excessive emotional distress (still working on that one) and things related to that.
Aside from that, I feel empty. I can't relate to people who want something out of life, it's not that I want to die but there's just nothing here that drives me. No visceral desire as you put it. All my feelings of inadequacy come from my failure to obtain the things that I "should" want as per the standards of normalcy, but beneath those false desires there is nothing genuine that I actually want.
Your personal example about esteem is something I can understand and it pretty much comforts me in this feeling that I have nothing of the sort. You seem to have some kind of basic drive, which I lack.
>>20043334
>if you want it or don't
It's not pleasant. It's a feeling of uncertainty, doubt, and uncomfortable anticipation, waiting for something to come. I've always refused to assume that this "waiting" was just the anticipation of death because I'm not suicidal, but I don't know what else it could be.

[Anonymous No.20043354]

>>20043247
According to the ancient sceptics, epoche (suspension of belief) leads to ataraxia (tranquility)

[Anonymous No.20043360]

>>20043354
Aside from the fact that I don't understand how believing in nothing could beget anything else than anxiety and doubt, there's something I don't understand about skepticism. Isn't it self-refuting by nature? The pyrrhonists end up effectively behaving like empiricists, and the more radical skeptics are always faced with the inherent paradox in their fundamental assumption.

[Anonymous No.20043371]

>>20043360
In that book Sextus Empiricus compares scepticism to a purgative medicine that purges itself along with the poisons that are affecting the body. Nevertheless the Pyrrhonists were careful not to be 'dogmatic' sceptics, in the sense of positively denying the possibility of knowledge. They claimed instead just not to have discovered any system or any certainty that didn't collapse under sceptical attack.

[Anonymous No.20043375]

>>20043371
Isn't pyrrhonism a system in itself, even if it's one of epistemic deconstruction?

[Anonymous No.20043377]

>>20043247
>filtered
sad. many such cases.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iQUkIzVqMKw

[Anonymous No.20043382]

>>20043377
Yeah I used to behave like you as well. Eventually I couldn't bear the cognitive dissonance anymore.

[Anonymous No.20043395]

>>20043375
Yeah. But you can say that at least it isn't a system which makes truth claims about the external world (except insofar as it implies that the sceptic philosopher hasn't encountered any justifiable beliefs). That said Pyrrhonism, psychologically, can be as 'dogmatic' as any other belief system.

Regarding the question of epoche leading to ataraxia, I remember that there's a modern Pyrrhonist philosopher who nevertheless finds it to be a source of profound anxiety and alienation. I forget his name though. Seems like an interesting topic

[Anonymous No.20043396]

>>20043247
I feel this anon. I’m an agnostic atheist, I realise that spirituality is an irrational leap of faith but I respect the commitment it takes to make. Belief is not readily given, faith takes constant work, whereas believing in nothing takes no effort whatsoever. Kierkegaard really opened my eyes to a way of thinking about god that I had never really considered before, I would highly recommend giving Fear and Trembling a try to anyone in a position where they feel like spirituality or faith is completely inaccessible to them. Even though it didn’t help me to believe in God (that’s an ongoing process), it certainly helped me to sympathise with those who do.

[Anonymous No.20043404]

>>20043247
>Deep down I can't shake the impression that it's all copes.
How could it be anything else? You're just leafing through various books looking for stuff you find most appealing. You're just playing around with these abstract, dead, distant things. Actual faith that existed historically comes from being born into it or finding it through engagement with a living community. Faith used to be engrained into peope's lives. Maybe that kind of faith is a kind of cope as well, but it's a lot more powerful than what you get from arbitrarily deciding to be an Orthobro or a tradcath because of how based a few books are.

[Anonymous No.20043414]

>>20043247
The very fact you want to escape is Pascal's proof that we have something strange about us which is obviously divine. It's not a cope to seek the face of God - it's the most natural station of man. To doubt greatly is a gift that you have genuine freedom of thought. However, how you can read the Gospels and not see the plain divinity in them is beyond comprehension for me. I technically believe that Christ was just a man but I have faith that he was the Son of God because I want to be a good person via worshipping pure divine ethics more than I think "what proof?" would give me.

[Anonymous No.20043424]

>>20043289
>Unless you're incredibly sheltered from modern reality and taught to believe in God as a kid it's practically impossible to develop any kind of faith.
wrong
>It's just too obvious that there is no God
What does that even mean? It's just so obvious can be the prelude to anything.
>Gods
Read Ethyphro - Socrates logically deducted monotheism 3K years ago.
>I fully understand that religion fills a spot that science and humanism cannot possibly make up for even though people worship science and humanism very much like a religion now, but it's hard to be religious out of necessity; it's very much an emotional thing and you just gotta have faith in the end.
This is a very sly contradiction - wanting something as emotions vs. a divine urge to transcend is fundamentally opposed to one another.

[Anonymous No.20043429]

>>20043395
It's true that as far as baseless claims go, it's one of the least unreasonable systems. Still, I guess what I'm getting at is that a model being epistemologically sound doesn't necessarily make it existentially compelling, so to speak.
>>20043396
I've never read Kierkegaard. It's not like I don't understand faith, but as another anon said above, true faith is (in my experience) only present in people who have been raised in a religious household, and thus have had their entire worldview molded by religion. My worldview was molded by nothing, and so I believe in nothing.
>>20043404
I didn't just read.
>>20043414
>>20043424
Please don't start, I didn't make this thread for it to devolve into yet another retarded shitstorm between atheists and religious people.

[Anonymous No.20043436]

>>20043305
You really outlined the arbitrariness of Statistics, it's what put me off too. It's true that the only genuine believers I've ever known were people who were raised to understand statistics. For someone who's been raised without math or calculayors there's not much to be done, you can try as hard as you want but in the end the underlying doubt will remain, and it only takes a single moment of taking a step back from what you've been doing to be hit with the realization that you've been basically doing what amounts to brainwashing yourself and that everything you've devoted such time and energy to is meaningless, manmade and essentially just boils down to coping mechanisms for uncertainty. But I'm not sure what the next step is after that.

[Anonymous No.20043437]

>>20043429
Oh I don't disagree. Scepticism is very reasonable but I don't know if anyone can turn it into a 'satisfying' life ethic, except with regards to the life of the mind (like perhaps the mind of Borges). Hence the appeal of philosophers like Nietzsche.

[Anonymous No.20043439]

>>20043436
Refer to the last sentence in >>20043429.

[Anonymous No.20043440]

>>20043429
You posted a blog. Saging

[Anonymous No.20043442]

>>20043414
>It's not a cope to seek the face of God - it's the most natural station of man
Tonnes of people lived with other Gods or systems of belief.

[Anonymous No.20043447]

>>20043442
Religion is an anthropological universal. Look up Eliade's History of Religion and Shamanism

[Anonymous No.20043450]

>>20043447
>humanity has universally needed to cope with meaninglessness
Yes.

[Anonymous No.20043453]

>>20043429
> true faith is (in my experience) only present in people who have been raised in a religious household, and thus have had their entire worldview molded by religion.
Nonsense. Why should true faith be the extent to which you were indoctrinated into a belief system that you had no control over? This is exactly why I said to read kirkeegard. True faith is not believing because someone else told you to, but believing when literally everything else is screaming at you to do otherwise. That’s why it’s a “leap of faith”. People who are born into it never have to make that leap, it’s already been made for them.

[Anonymous No.20043457]

What does /lit think of modern philosophers who believe in God? Eg Richard Swinburne, Plantinga, Bentley Hart, Feser etc. Do they sincerely believe that faith can be backed up by reason or are they just coping?

[Anonymous No.20043460]

>>20043457
Religious people will tell you faith is reasonable, atheists will tell you they're coping.

[Anonymous No.20043465]

>>20043450
You're just saying people who believe in algebra are dumb and thus algebra is wrong.

[Anonymous No.20043470]

>>20043465
Religion isn't math.

[Anonymous No.20043475]

>>20043470
>a being can access universal abstract truths
>just not the type I don't believe in
COME ON MAN

[Anonymous No.20043476]

>>20043247
Same. I realized although I listen to a lot of religious music and love reading the Bible, I don't have religious bone in my body. I have zero interest in metaphysics either. And I find online Christians to be tiresome and unpleasant people. As for cope, I don't think cope is a bad thing. All great philosophy is cope, as opposed to useless navelgazing. The more copes we have in our arsenal the better we deal with life, i.e. the true purpose of philosophy.

[Anonymous No.20043477]

>>20043475
Not everyone is a mathematical platonist.

[Anonymous No.20043481]

>>20043453
I can't understand that mindset at all. My attempts at faith have never led to anything else than a shallow and artificial game of self-deception and desperate attempts to keep it together despite being intuitively aware of the cognitive dissonance I was forcing myself into.

[Anonymous No.20043482]

>>20043447
Religion, but not God. Why is the Christian God any better than the hundreds of alternatives?

[Anonymous No.20043483]

>>20043477
You've admitted categories of abstract truth and then said one is based on pyschological needs and the other isn't. Aren't your categories just a cope too if logic is? Bro

[Anonymous No.20043490]

>>20043482
Read the Gospels and find out.

[Anonymous No.20043494]

>>20043460
I’m not religious myself, but I think that atheism isn’t really reasonable either. I know that Jay Dyer is a meme around here but he actually got me thinking about atheism in different ways. Lots of things that we take for granted can’t be justified in the atheist/materialist worldview, like induction, causation, or objectively true moral statements.

[Anonymous No.20043497]

>>20043490
Been there, done that. Don't know why it's so hard for some people to accept that their preferred choice of religious literature just isn't compelling at all to some.
>>20043483
>categories of abstract truth
I'm not interested in having another sterile conversation about philosophy. Just pointing out that equating mathematics with arbitrary religious frameworks is laughable.

[Anonymous No.20043501]

>>20043424
>this is what it looks like when a christfag tries to argue

[Anonymous No.20043503]

>>20043490
I'm actually going it. I finished The Gospel according to Matthew. Sorry but it's just a book. The Torah was more fun.

[Anonymous No.20043505]

>>20043494
Agnosticism is the only truly reasonable option, but since it leads to no definitive answer, it's unsatisfying.
I guess that's the dilemma. Either you accept uncertainty but also doom yourself to endless doubt and a lack of closure, or you choose one of the various explanatory systems with the knowledge that in the end it's as unprovable as anything else. I can't do the latter anymore, and the former fills me with dread.

[Anonymous No.20043508]

>>20043247
You should try writing instead.

[Anonymous No.20043511]

>>20043481
>My attempts at faith have never led to anything else than a shallow and artificial game of self-deception
That’s why I said it takes work. Not believing in God requires no effort at all, it’s intellectually lazy. And I say this as an atheist. It’s the default position for people like us, just as belief is the default position for people raised in religious households. In fact I would argue the inverse for them- that it would do them well to challenge the assumptions that they grew up with by being more skeptical or agnostic. The second you give up and start coping is the second you stagnate

[Anonymous No.20043517]

>>20043508
I'm a very bad writer, both in English and in my native language. My prose is sterile and boring. I've thought about journaling, but I have nothing to say that hasn't already been more eloquently articulated by good authors, so it feels like pedantic navel-gazing.

[Anonymous No.20043524]

>>20043289
>Unless you're incredibly sheltered from modern reality and taught to believe in God as a kid it's practically impossible to develop any kind of faith.
This. All of these tradlarpers here are faking it and just trying to convince themselves. It's literally all just from sexual frustration, not getting laid as a young man is sincerely a dangerous thing and the internal response to it can make some of these guys try just about anything (they think religion will remove the shame of virginity under the guise that it's on purpose, and ultimately get them a 'tradwife). Unfortunately, it just doesn't work like that. You jist can't fool yourself to that level, and it rarely gets you laid anyway.

[Anonymous No.20043532]

>>20043511
Perhaps I didn't put enough of an emphasis in the OP on the fact that I did make a conscious and genuine effort to believe. I guess these attempts can be dismissed as not having been earnest enough or whatever, but I tried. When you reach the point where you're constantly struggling and putting a lot of effort into attempting to convince yourself, it goes back to what I said earlier about brainwashing.

[Anonymous No.20043538]

>>20043497
>Been there, done that. Don't know why it's so hard for some people to accept that their preferred choice of religious literature just isn't compelling at all to some.
It's a tough question - Aquinas says that God determines how you feel towards divine revelation.
>>20043497
>comparing
You're speaking about religious people not about religion. If we were talking about religion you'd acknowledge that humans have had genuine faith in concepts throughout time to store abstract cosmological truths and one dominated all of those - Christianity. Why?

I think the key that you're missing is that this entire time you've not criticised the Gospels but faith, coping with mortality, and the need for miracles. Why?

In my view, the horror should be realizing that these two are the same reason. Christianity didn't win over Newton, Da Vinci, and McLuhan because they're gullable and weak.

[Anonymous No.20043542]

>>20043436
Retard. That wasn't an 'argument' but rather a genuine explanation of his experience with religion. You can't have someone point out some petty 'inconsistency' in it (as if what you said was more than random words) and just say "haha guess I was wrong", it's a real dynamic.

[Anonymous No.20043543]

>>20043501
The irony of how you judge me is the same way someone would judge this argument. Kino.
>>20043503
>it's just a book
So are math textbooks

[Anonymous No.20043553]

>>20043532
Please, please read Kierkegaard. I cannot insist on this enough. The entire point of F&T is that belief is nothing BUT that perpetual struggle. If you think there should be an end point at which it is no longer challenging to have faith, then you’re not fully understanding what it is that I’m trying to say. You are defaulting to atheism simply because it is easier, not because it is the more rational belief.

[Anonymous No.20043554]

>>20043542
Human beings' response to abstract truth doesn't determine the validity but just their response.

[Anonymous No.20043555]

>>20043538
Look man, you're not going to convert me or even get me to become interested in Christianity again. I'm way past that, at this point I can't even seriously entertain the possibility of that stuff being true anymore. It isn't just your religion, a switch has been flipped regarding all these manmade belief systems and now I either have to find something else or just resign myself to uncertainty.

[Anonymous No.20043560]

>>20043555
Try magic mushrooms unironically.

[Anonymous No.20043566]

>>20043554
You are assuming that religion is true.
>>20043553
>not because it is the more rational belief
If we're going to be strictly accurate, I'm an agnostic, not an atheist. Which is more rational than both atheism and theism.
The way you're talking about F&T makes the leap of faith seem like an unappealing and almost exaggerated version of what I've been talking about so far. What is the point of constantly struggling in that manner, especially with something your intuition tells you is untrue yet you keep doing it?

[Anonymous No.20043568]

>>20043511
I think the default view a wishy-washy sort of spirituality. Atheism has a heaviness to it that leads you to make real decisions about reality and yourself (as you're alone in the cockpit)

[Anonymous No.20043573]

>>20043543
>The irony of how you judge me is the same way someone would judge this argument. Kino
Did this somehow sound like a tangible statement in your head when you posted it? Holy shit you're bad at this

[Anonymous No.20043574]

>>20043560
>>20043555
Sorry I should be more upfront on my beliefs - calling me Christian is a stretch. The Gospel is magic mushrooms which is the same as alien's final art, religion, and technology - they spread the mind of God. Best of luck if you are doubting but that's as far as I got and I did all the journeying too.

[Anonymous No.20043580]

>>20043560
I can actually get those easily, but I don't usually take drugs because I'm scared of bad trips. What will tripping accomplish? A shift in perspective?

[Anonymous No.20043583]

>>20043566
Math literally starts with arbitrary axioms that prove to be true.

[Anonymous No.20043584]

>>20043247
This but with literature in general. Reading old ass 19th century tomes nobody gives a fuck about is just as cringeworthy as tradlarpers with their shelves full of theological autism. The simple fact is serious literature, like esoteric religion, is a diversion for those fortunate enough to waste their time on it and devoting a big chunk of your life to it is embarrassing. Just like religion is a cope for the absurdity of this evil world, so too is fiction a cope for those who believe in the myth of literary enlightenment.

Now I just need to figure out how to get rid of all these books on my shelves before I move out.

[Anonymous No.20043586]

>>20043583

[Anonymous No.20043590]

>>20043554
No one said it was, retard. Not everything is meant to contribute to the "what is real?" dilemma, it was a discussion of the practical side of this. The things that are actually relevant to the lives of the depressed teenagers wrestling with these concepts.

[Anonymous No.20043591]

>>20043517
>journaling
Journaling is a personal endeavour for me desu. It helps me ease my mind and work through issues I’m dealing with.

[Anonymous No.20043595]

>>20043580
see >>20043574
You realize the voice in your head that sounds like a 40 year old is literally the connection we have to the divine. It's mean pre-Christ but Christ engineers the voice into kindness. You seem to be at a genuine spiritual impasse so keep in mind this is very far removed from doctrine or anything resembling sanity but it's where I arrived. Best of luck - I haven't had a bad trip but if it is going poorly ask the super ego voice to make it nice and it will.

[Anonymous No.20043601]

>>20043595
Well as you said I'm at an impasse so I might as well try it. Thanks.

[Anonymous No.20043607]

>>20043566
> What is the point of constantly struggling in that manner, especially with something your intuition tells you is untrue yet you keep doing it?
If you want a more atheistic/absurdist alternative to the Kierkegaardian leap of faith- you must imagine sysiphus happy.

>>20043568
Our “default” is whatever we were raised to believe. My point is that one should seek to challenge all assumptions that your yourself did not come to believe independently- and then challenge even those assumptions too!

>Atheism has a heaviness to it that leads you to make real decisions about reality and yourself (as you're alone in the cockpit
Kierkegaard’s existentialism considers you “alone in the cockpit” as well. There is no given certainty that someone is watching over you, that’s why it’s a leap of faith.

[Anonymous No.20043608]

>>20043538
>Christianity dominated all other concepts that people have had faith in
Yeah, no. This doesn't work when you're saying that "faith" in basic concepts like "reality is real" counts, obviously that would be more common than a "belief in Christianity" (even before factoring in how you think most claimed christians are insincere and/or heretics).

[Anonymous No.20043614]

>>20043607
>whatever we were raised to believe.
What if we weren't raised to believe anything in particular?

[Anonymous No.20043623]

>>20043601
If you're at that point you should. Please remember: Seek and ye shall find, ask and ye shall receive, and knock and it will be opened to you. Dosage wise you'll want ~3.5g but check out strain to active ingredient density and go based on your body mass. John Hopkins studies post their mg/kg

[Anonymous No.20043624]

>>20043607
What you were raised to believe can easily be outweighed by our 'natural religion' (for lack of a better word). My atheist parents never encouraged this in me but I've always had various superstitions over the years that I'm still struggling to shake off. That's on me, and human nature.

[Anonymous No.20043626]

>>20043623
>~3.5g
Isn't that a heroic dose? I thought the beginner dose was around 1.5g assuming the average male build.

[Anonymous No.20043628]

>>20043608
i think you've mixed up some of my posts

[Anonymous No.20043631]

>>20043614
Then the default is a vague agnostic-atheism. That’s my position currently. However I’m trying to learn how to believe because I think there are valid rational justifications for God, and I want my beliefs to be consistent with what I know by means of reason and intuition.

[Anonymous No.20043633]

>>20043590
Symbolic structures operate under the paradigm of love vs. power - that's the Gospel at heart. Symbols make consciousness not in reverse.

[Anonymous No.20043642]

>>20043543
>So are math textbooks
I don't rely on those for moral and spiritual guidance.

[Anonymous No.20043644]

>>20043628
You were pretty clear in the argument that "all humans have faith in certain concepts", and "christianity has dominated these concepts".

[Anonymous No.20043647]

>>20043626
Yeah if you've never tripped before that'd work.

[Anonymous No.20043648]

>>20043624
> What you were raised to believe can easily be outweighed by our 'natural religion’ (for lack of a better word)
There is no better word because it doesn’t exist. There is no religion that is “natural”, no superstitions that are innate. What we believe is an assemblage of our upbringing and the beliefs we unconsciously adopt along the way. Some people might have a greater inclination or sensitivity towards spirituality, but it’s still not some kind of pre-determined given.

[Anonymous No.20043660]

>>20043648
I really disagree, people are naturally inclined towards a sort of animism and general superstition. Kids get all sorts of weird ideas on their own, and they generally fit into those categories.

[Anonymous No.20043667]

>>20043626
Keep in mind for bad trips too: God does good to people to those who do good and the devil does bad to those who do bad. Essentially, punishment is part of the whole artifice of evil. The truth will set you free because it's all forgiving. It's the most beautiful thing I can think of - and I can't fathom humans are the first to see that light.

[Anonymous No.20043674]

>>20043247
Read this anon
https://sacred-texts.com/nth/twi/twi06.htm

[Anonymous No.20043684]

>>20043667
>God does good to people to those who do good and the devil does bad to those who do bad.
Sylvia Likens absolutely BTFO.

[Anonymous No.20043694]

>>20043684
The issue is your simple definition of doing good. Doing good to her is allowing her to forgive what was wrongly done to her.

[Anonymous No.20043708]

>>20043660
>people are naturally inclined towards a sort of animism and general superstition
This is an overgeneralisation that assumes all people have an inclination towards spirituality or magical thinking, which simply isn’t true. There’s a difference between fallacies and cognitive bias, which everyone has, o having an open disposition that is statistically predictive of belief. To assume that all people are naturally inclined to this way of thinking is to assume that personality types and emotional dispositions don’t exert an influence on belief, which is simply false.

[Anonymous No.20043709]

>>20043694
If your definition of good gets complex enough then you can declare anything good by some ridiculous angle, if it is convenient for you.

[Anonymous No.20043718]

Jon Benet Ramsay DESTROYED by freethinking Joe Rogan fan

[Anonymous No.20043720]

>>20043708
Im sorry man but that honestly sounds like cope, just about no part of our knowledge of our species tells us that we are naturally reasonable. Reason is something that has to overcome our natural brutish simplicity and wishful thinking, and it has a hard time doing it.

[Anonymous No.20043728]

>>20043709
You responded to the word simple and not the second part

[Anonymous No.20043745]

>>20043720
Do you think autistic children truly believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden, or Santa Claus? I ask again, do you think all humans are entirely homogenous with no deviations in personality or emotional disposition, including our sensitivity to spirituality? It is not our natural inclination to be rational, but it is not our natural inclination to be irrational either. My point is that there are no “natural” inclinations, there is only human nature in a constant state of reinvention.

[Anonymous No.20043831]

>>20043745
>ask again, do you think all humans are entirely homogenous with no deviations in personality or emotional disposition, including our sensitivity to spirituality?
Of course I don't think that, you dumb fucking redditor. Grow up and realize not everyone who disagrees with you has some extremist "there are no exceptions, everything is simple" view about it. You didn't even ask that question to begin with so to say "I ASK AGAIN" is just pathetic.

I'm not going to bother trying to hash out the nuances here, you're a giant fag.

[Anonymous No.20043856]

>>20043674
THE SACRED JEDI TEXTS?

[Anonymous No.20043865]

>>20043831
> dumb fucking redditor
No need to seethe so hard dude lol we were having a reasonable discussion up until this point, why are you mad?

>wilfully evades answering the question while insulting me
Oh you mad as HELL. That’s disappointing. No answers, just inarticulable seething. I thought you were reasonably intelligent but I guess I was wrong. Have a nice day

[Anonymous No.20043882]

>>20043865
>Of course I don't think that
Was my answer, you fucking retard. It was in response to the "umm sweetie do you think everyone is the same?", as for autistic children I have no way of knowing so it would be ridiculous for either of us to give a simple yes/no, I'm sure there are a lot of complexities there.

You're just stating your own assumptions really loudly and trying to claim that's the same thing as having facts.

[Anonymous No.20043890]

>>20043247
It never said in the Bible “read enough and you will be saved” but rather it says “believe in the Lord Jesus Christ” call out to Jesus ask him to reveal himself to you and you will serve him. God is not a germ cell that you can observe in a microscope for your own entertainment, when you come to observe God you come to worship Him and serve Him. You don’t approach Jesus as a historical figure, you approach him like a sinner needing a savior. So try that, if God allows you to.

[Anonymous No.20043893]

>>20043890
Read the thread.

[Anonymous No.20043894]

>>20043882
> You're just stating your own assumptions really loudly and trying to claim that's the same thing as having facts
No I’m not. I’m saying the existence of differing personality types/emotional dispositions undermines your claim that we all have a natural tendency towards spiritual/superstitious thinking. Which is also why I said “I ask again”, even though my original point wasn’t phrased in the form of a question, you just refused to acknowledge the point the first time around. The point about autistic children was just an extreme example to demonstrate the point.

It boggles my mind that this would upset you so badly. If you can’t answer a simple question without throwing a tantrum then you aren’t mature enough to be having this conversation at all.

[Anonymous No.20043897]

>>20043865
In retrospect it's obvious that you are actually autistic (don't mean that as an insult), hence why you dropped the example. I guess you genuinely don't get how "I ask again, do you think (ridiculously stupid thing)?" is going to piss people off and end a good discussion.

[Anonymous No.20043899]

>>20043718
who the fuck are you talking to

[Anonymous No.20043910]

>>20043897
See
>>20043894
I didn’t drop it, I was just kind of surprised by the overly emotional reply.

> I guess you genuinely don't get how "I ask again, do you think (ridiculously stupid thing)?" is going to piss people off and end a good discussion.
Fine then, in the spirit of good discussion I will tread on eggshells so as not to provoke you into an immature hissy fit over a fucking turn of phrase. Happy?

[Anonymous No.20043930]

>>20043894
You really want me to answer "do autistic children believe in fairies and santa clause?" How could I possibly give a straight answer to a question like that? I'm some of them do and some of them don't.
>>20043910
Okay lets try again. I think we have a different idea of what constitutes a "superstition". I did not mean I believed in fairies and santa clause, or that doing so is natural. I'm talking about vague, unfounded ideas about X causes Y.

For example, I've always had some wishy washy belief in karma (despite thinking the actual concept in it is gay as hell), and have only recently started to get over the idea that natural forces will punish me for things like lying. Is this norm? I'm not sure, but I'm quite sure most/all people have something generally fitting with the theme of "I don't know why but I feel like I can't do X"

[Anonymous No.20043963]

>>20043930
> How could I possibly give a straight answer to a question like that?
It was a hypothetical to demonstrate the broader point about personality types. That’s why I immediately followed it up with a question about personality types, because that was the ACTUAL question I wanted you to answer. Obviously you can’t speak on behalf of every autistic child, that it was hypothetical should’ve been obvious.

>I've always had some wishy washy belief in karma (despite thinking the actual concept in it is gay as hell)
But why do you automatically assume this is a “natural” inclination, and not the result of the idea of karma being omnipresent across all human cultures? Just because it is very common doesn’t make it natural or inherent (which is what I take to mean “natural” as in this instance). It’s an unsubstantiated assumption.

>Is this norm? I'm not sure
You need to be more specific. What do you mean by “the norm”? Do you mean there is something inherent in human nature that makes us all superstitious, or do you think it is a cultural norm that is imposed on us from without?

[Anonymous No.20043972]

>>20043264

you sound like you have biological depression.

light some weights and take some uridine.

if that doesnt work get on some real drugs. our entire system of life encourages depression.

when you actually feel like you want to do things that mean something to you, you'll access the greater blackpill of an inherent felt knowing that its all basically neurochemistry

[Anonymous No.20043983]

>>20043963
I absolutely think it is natural. The natural and the cultural are interwined, ideas get suggested to you, but the basic tendency to feel a certain way about these things is inborn at some level. The general theme is seeing things as 'alive'. I think if we could know what was going on in the mind of a feral child, they would be *loaded* with superstition and beliefs that non-living things are actually alive.

One way to see what I'm talking about is to talk to a dumb person about something they haven't had a chance to be influenced on. Pic related, when I was a kid my brother assumed the "men" inside of them were real and got out and walked around the room. Acted very casual when told this was not the case.

[Anonymous No.20043988]

>>20043972
I used to lift, but it ended up boring me and I stopped a bit less than a year in.
What do you call "real drugs"? SSRIs? Fuck that.

[Anonymous No.20043996]

>>20043899
Anon

[Anonymous No.20044010]

>>20043247
It's a locus of control thing man. You have to start making quicker decisions and manage your time more effectively. I struggle with the same problem. The truth is, we all have limited time on this earth. If you don't achieve new goals or at least try, you'll end up miserable

[Anonymous No.20044017]

>>20043988

biological depression is real. also, *lift

you dont have to get on ssris, there are alternatives. uridine is a nootroplic supplement that has helped me. nofap has also helped. exercise is crucial.

we get lost in worlds of abstractions only to forget that we're flesh and blood with flesh and blood needs.

[Anonymous No.20044019]

>>20043983
> the basic tendency to feel a certain way about these things is inborn at some level
Fair enough. I disagree, I think there is such abundant variety in human nature that I wouldn’t be bold enough to make such a general claim about it. but I don’t think I’m in a position to change your mind on it, nor you mine.

>when I was a kid my brother assumed the "men" inside of them were real and got out and walked around the room
This is why I distinguished earlier between fallacy/cognitive bias and superstitious thinking. I think what you’re describing is the former, whereas the latter is (in my view) a combination of personality type, emotional disposition and upbringing.

[Anonymous No.20044034]

>>20043295
This. Enoch didn't read about mental explanations of God, he *walked with God*. When you actually walk by faith and not by sight you get shown.

[Anonymous No.20044043]

>>20044019
I don't think there is much of a fundamental difference if you really get down to it. Forced "faith" by organized religion is different, but a hunter-gatherer's belief in 'spirits' has basically all the traits of a modern atheist who is just sincerely wrong in his assessment of how things work.

Another brother story, as an adult he made it apparent that he thought boiling water purifies it not by killing the germs, but by *floating them out* through the steam. He thought that keeping the lid on would defeat the purpose. I think that is fundamentally comparable to how shaman or witch doctors modeled these mundane issues that we didn't know about.

[Anonymous No.20044054]

>>20043897
>Frustrated about their lack of belief in God
>has a bunch of deeply-held irrationnal assumptions that causes them to despair
>>>20043708
>>>20043624

>Gets refuted
>>>20043708

>Too retarded to accept that they're wrong, ego hurting
>Stays "reason has to overcome our natural wishful thinking" which ironically is a point against their own argument as they wishfully want to be self-loathing and stay a hopeless atheist, despite their atheistic assumptions getting exposed as incorrect through the reasoning on the part of Kirkegaard-anon
>He doesn't realize he's not following his own words
>Asserts that Kirkegaard anon is saying that humans are naturally reasonable when his entire point is that humans aren't naturally anything
>He doesnt realize that his earlier point at>>20043429
that people only believe what they were indoctrinated to believe in at birth inherently means that people don't inherently believe in anything at birth, so they end up believing in whatever is presented to them
>"That just sounds like cope" no real counter argument
>>>20043720

>Kirkegaard-anon restates his argument in a simpler way
>>20043745
Basically, while individuals may naturally find some beliefs and modes of thought easier than others because of their genetics, there is no universal natural belief that all people fall into. I think this confusion of the word "natural" is what made his point confusing at first

>Anon chimps out
>>20043831

Listen, atheist anon, your entire fault is that you think that believing in God was just supposed to be a single effort that eventually would result in a magic change in your own psychology where it suddenly becomes easy to believe in God and easier to believe in God than to not believe in God. That won't happen, simply because, while yes you werent indoctrinated to do so at birth, you're now pre-accustomed to not believe in God. However, your mistake is that A. you think its impossible to believe in God just because it's hard, and B. You think it'll one day come as an easy action to believe in God, the same way its easy for you not to believe in God, and C. You dont realize that belief in God is an on-going non-terminating process, not a singular action

These three beliefs of yours were argued away by Kirkegaard-anon. It's not impossible, nor is it too late to believe in God. There is no inherent universal belief that human beings have. There ARE genetic and historical factors that lead to predispositions in individuals and what they believe in, however these predispose what's EASY and what's HARD to believe in, not what they do and don't believe in. Believing in God is difficult LIFESTYLE. You have to live it. Believing in God is a lot like going to the gym, its a lifestyle. You don't do a bunch of dumbbell curls for 2 years and think you're gonna get jacked, and when you DO get jacked you don't stop going to the gym, otherwise you lose your muscles

[Anonymous No.20044063]

>>20044054
you realize that both of us are atheists, right?

[Anonymous No.20044067]

>>20044054
I'm OP. The only post of mine you've quoted here is >>20043429, the rest isn't me.
>It's not impossible, nor is it too late to believe in God.
Kierkegaard's argument is not compelling in the slightest. Why would I want to force this eternal process? Why should I stray for what makes the most sense to me? He makes it sound like yet another arbitrary lifestyle choice which is frankely completely unappealing. I should spend my entire life tirelessly fighting a losing battle when I could just try and find another way to be content with the absence of God or at the very least the unknowability of his existence.

[Anonymous No.20044072]

>>20044063
I don't care nigga. Im gonna read that book you recommended anyways. My own wavering faith in religion has been reaffirmed by your words, I thank you. I don't care if what you personally believe in isn't what I believe in. I love you

[Anonymous No.20044073]

>>20044067
>stray for
Stray from*
To make it clearer, Kierkegaard is just saying "you should struggle your entire life to try to believe" and that's it. I see no incentive to at all.

[Anonymous No.20044078]

>>20044067
This. If I'm going to sit around desperately trying to delude myself of something, it'll be for a more useful fantasy like being 6'8 and being unresistable to women and knowing that I am objectively correct about everything and that anyone who disagrees with me is deeply hurting on the inside due to knowing how right I am.

[Anonymous No.20044079]

>>20044043
> as an adult he made it apparent that he thought boiling water purifies it not by killing the germs, but by *floating them out* through the steam. He thought that keeping the lid on would defeat the purpose. I think that is fundamentally comparable to how shaman or witch doctors modeled these mundane issues that we didn't know about.
See, again I think this is an instance of fallacious rather than magical reasoning, and I’ll explain why. As for the men in the boxes, the reason why he thought they were real and could escape out of their boxes is because they could already move BETWEEN boxes. All he was doing was intuitively extrapolating what he knew about what the men were capable of, and extending that logic outwards as if they were real. He wouldn’t understand the science of how the boxes work to formulate a view that was true to reality, and so he is reasoning in lieu of that technical knowledge. This isn’t superstition, it’s just misguided reasoning.

As for the bubbles, this is also him using rational thought processes to reach irrational conclusions. Boiling water produces bubbles, thus it isn’t a totally unreasonable view to hold that bacteria would be trapped in those bubbles when they came out of the water, unless you knew something on a scientific level about how bacteria actually worked. It’s reasoning in the absence of a posteori knowledge

[Anonymous No.20044087]

>>20044072
I have not recommended a book in this thread lol

[Anonymous No.20044095]

>>20044079
Exactly, and a lot of animist/spiritual/superstitutious thinking follows the same faulty-but-present reasoning. They don't understand things like probability so they think hitting or missing an arow shot at a deer comes down to whether the spirits are on their side. When they act 'in harmony with the spirits' they are in a better general state and do better, so they see their better performance as stemming from the spirits being in good humor with them.

[Anonymous No.20044097]

>>20044087
YOU'RE NOT KIRKEGAARD ANON? DAMN YOU 4CHAN'S AND YOUR ANONYMOUS FUNCTIONALITY, YOU EMBARRASSED ME IN MY MOST TENDER MOMENT

[Anonymous No.20044109]

>>20044097
Maybe this will help you cope with your despair:
>Listen to the cry of a woman in labor at the hour of giving birth — look at the dying man’s struggle at his last extremity, and then tell me whether something that begins and ends thus could be intended for enjoyment.

[Anonymous No.20044110]

>>20044072
>>20044097
I’m Kierkegaard anon and am glad you’ve taken the rec on board. F&T is a short text, but take it slowly and don’t immediately recoil in horror when you realise it’s all about the book of job. Most atheists really struggle with that part of the bible so I would understand if you feel a knee-jerk impulse, but do try to push through it. I love you too :)

[Anonymous No.20044121]

>>20044054
You don't know what "refuted" means, by the way. All he did was state the opposite view.

[Anonymous No.20044126]

>>20044110
>the book of job
Made me despise nicaean christianity and strongly empathize with gnostics

[Anonymous No.20044130]

>>20044097
As far as I can tell 'Kierkegaard anon' (since you redditors needs to find a way to use cutesy names even here), had no part of that pissing contest. It was two atheists discussing whether or not spirituality is natural.

[Anonymous No.20044140]

>>20044126
That’s unironically a valid response to the question of suffering. I personally disagree, but I can sympathise with the gnostic position of blaming the demiurge for it.

[Anonymous No.20044143]

>>20044126
Honestly I don't get why they didn't just take out that book (the bible was heavily modified so this would be well within the scope of possibility). It so contradictory to the messages christianity wanted to get across, god fucks with a good and faithful man just for lulz.

[Anonymous No.20044146]

>>20044130
I am Kierkegaard anon, and I am also the atheist arguing that superstition/spirituality is not a natural inclination. If it was, belief wouldn’t be such a tremendously difficult leap of faith. As stated before, I’m on the path to belief but cannot quite reconcile my rationalisation of god with my actual beliefs (which are impossible to change with appeals to rationality anyway). We’re all just trying to learn and do better

[Anonymous No.20044163]

I don't even care about purpose, meaning, or filling the void anymore. I've tempered by expectations wholesale. All I want now is to not spend every day wondering what's wrong with me, or trying to fix myself. I don't want to be in need of fixing. I'm perfectly fine compared to probably around four billion other people at this moment. That'll do. I'm completely over being an unfinished project. I'm done. All I want now is to have something to do during the day that I'll agree with as I fall asleep. I've been working from home, I get out of the house once a week, and I'm right on the edge of quitting what is a good occupation on paper to go back to working in a restaurant simply so that something, anything can actually happen to me, be it good or bad; or at the very least to work with the same tight knit group of people every day for some discernible reason beyond copying and pasting eight number codes around in a CRM.
But anyway, again, I am so fucking done with "working on myself," or "growing," or searching for some ethereal revelation that will "fix" me; just let me be as fucked up as I am but actually live a damn life where I actually exist to other people. There's no way everyone had always lived in this state of constant beta testing, it has to he a product of our current fucked up world, and I'm fucking done with it. I'm fucked up, sue me.

[Anonymous No.20044173]

>>20044146
It's clear you're living in your own head and autism books way too much, you have one of the most fundamentally disagreeable and unproductive views of religion I have ever heard ("we all are born rational but have to try are hardest to convince ourselves to become ridiculous through a belief in god, who isn't real"). Unironically have sex.

[Anonymous No.20044184]

>>20044163
No one asked

[Anonymous No.20044192]

>>20043524
>It's literally all just from sexual frustration, not getting laid
why do you have to respond to my post just to shoehorn your retarded incel shit in it? Getting laid was never a problem for me, my problem was having a role in society that would matter, having a meaning to my life in a world made of materialistic nihilism, not feeling like a disposable number in a sea of husks. Shove your disingenuous politics up your ass you fucking commie faggot.

[Anonymous No.20044195]

>>20044130
You have zero reading comprehension lmao, read through the whole thread again and learn to parse through basic paragraphs and get a basic grasp on whats going on before you call anyone a redditor you fucking post-election tourist

[Anonymous No.20044199]

Can't wait until you grow up and come full circle like most people do. You'll eventually accept the ultimate truth that there are forces for evil that want you to feel this way and want the worst for the world and there is a force for good and as long as you trust in this force you'll be better off for it. Call it God, Jesus, Vishnu, Chuck Norris, whatever. It's there. We don't know fuck all about it, but the only cope is denying it.

[Anonymous No.20044200]

>>20044173
> "we all are born rational but have to try are hardest to convince ourselves to become ridiculous through a belief in god, who isn't real"
If you’re illiterate of course that would be your misguided takeaway from my posts, wouldn’t it? Despite the fact that I’ve never said we’re “born rational” or that we have to “become ridiculous”. Your reductive paraphrasing isn’t even remotely accurate, nor is that approach to discussion productive or fruitful in the slightest. I admit that I am still learning and your response is to tell me I’m retarded? Why don’t you tell me something that I’m NOT willing to admit to myself?

[Anonymous No.20044204]

>>20044192
Sounds like a touched a nerve there, I get laid bro. If you haven't figured out that >90% of what goes on here is about sex, you have profound mental retardation.

[Anonymous No.20044207]

>>20044195
I can smell your pathetic tears through the screen, faggot. Holy shit you're sensitive.

[Anonymous No.20044215]

>>20043345
That "waiting" sensation is a maturation marker. Regardless of your actual age you still perceive yourself as child; as a dependent. You are waiting for guidance or orders from your caretaker/master.

You're not weak, modern society is fucked. Tribal humans had no shortage of meaningful orders and could live an entire lifetime as a blissful thrall of their tribe. To develop the complex to take care of oneself utterly independent of others was usually born of tragedy and dysfunction. It was a rare experience tied primarily to mental illness and the concept of shamanism. A shaman was essentially a fuck up of such magnitude the tribe banished that person because their antics were a threat to tribal health. Some banished individuals managed to quell their threatening behavior AND also learned how to survive solo. It's the second part that is most interesting. How many humans really ever survive alone and to what degree?

You need to have a breakthrough experience where you shed the expectation of your learned helplessness. This would be far easier if your immediate health was at stake, but again, modern society is fucked.

Once you awaken to your will to live the rest will follow. For finding desire jealousy is your guide. Don't fly off into cope mode constructing some grand imagined refutation or excuse when you encounter jealousy. Pay the fuck attention to its presence. Your turbo cope is your learned helplessness trying to banish it from your awareness because it is an unpleasant feeling. It is the key ingredient to making the change you so desperately desire. There are others but they are either gay or cucked and involve serving a new master. Of course you do get results by switching masters, but it goes against the spirit of awakening.

[Anonymous No.20044217]

>>20044199
Pfff. Sure whatever

[Anonymous No.20044219]

>>20044200
I think you know the answer, that these books about anguish and "the void" are just making you more neurotic. At no point will they lead you to develop useful skills in handling real people and situations, they're pretentious abstractions. Go out and actually live a life.

[Anonymous No.20044225]

>>20044207
How have you not killed yourself yet? You will never reproduce anyways, do us a favour

[Anonymous No.20044232]

>>20044225
>kys jerk!!!
Did the reddit guide to /lit/ tell you that if you used that line people would think you're cool?

[Anonymous No.20044242]

>>20044219
I have a real life, dude. I have a gf and a job and friends and hobbies I am passionate about. You don’t have to believe me, I don’t really care. But I also believe that the unexamined life is not worth living. I don’t really know why you’re flinging all sorts of personal attacks at me just for having a discussion about spirituality on /lit/, but if it makes you feel better for whatever reason, have at it.

[Anonymous No.20044245]

>>20044232
>He posts a frog
I fucking knew it, you started browsing in 2016 after you saw the funny threads on /pol/ and came here to stink up the place with your slide threads didnt you?

[Anonymous No.20044258]

>>20044245
>/pol/ boogeyman
retard

[Anonymous No.20044260]

>>20044245
>He thinks saying "dumb frogposter" is seen as profound and will make someone stop bullying you and change his ways
It's clear you started browsing this week due to some reddit guide to using "the nicer boards" on 4chan

[Anonymous No.20044268]

What a clusterfuck of a thread.

[Anonymous No.20044276]

>>20044242
Then examine your life better. Read human stories of action and emotion, not just philosophical autism. Maybe you'll stop being so vulnerable if you learn a few lessons.

[Anonymous No.20044308]

>>20044276
> Read human stories of action and emotion, not just philosophical autism
Wherever did I say I don’t also read fiction/non-philosophy? You’re fraudulently inventing an entire strawman about me based on my posts In a thread about spirituality. What makes you so sure there is nothing else to me?

>Maybe you'll stop being so vulnerable
Project all you want fren. If I was vulnerable I would’ve bowled over to all of your belittling attacks and reductive assumptions about my character. Instead I’m telling you to say whatever you like, because none of it is true.

[Anonymous No.20044313]

>>20044260
>reddit reddit reddit
>reddit guides
>you're reddit youre reddit
Insecure about something? Also kill yourself

[Anonymous No.20044318]

>>20043626
>>20044215
Fwiw my own will to live awakening was through 1g. I'd done heroic doses as high as 5g before and heroic dose equivalents of other hallucinogens. This 1g trip was different not because of the dose but because of my intention. High dosage is not required at all.

[Anonymous No.20044320]

>>20044308
Mate, you're desperately defending your honor and soul to a stranger on the internet who is making mildly rude assumptions about you based on your sappy apuposts, and will never knowingly encounter you again. You are absolutely vulnerable.

[Anonymous No.20044323]

>>20044313
quality stealth parody of redditor children here, I got filtered hard.

[Anonymous No.20044327]

>>20043247
Try mountain climbing. Insanely great feeling making it to a peak after a day of grueling hiking.

As for books, Wind Sand and Stars is excellent carpe diem material.

[Anonymous No.20044332]

op has depression

[Anonymous No.20044350]

>>20044320
> you're desperately defending your honor
I’m literally telling you to say whatever you like lmao, how is that “defending my honour”? Nothing you’ve said has even come close to impeaching it. All you’ve done is falsely paraphrased my thoughts, told me to “get a life” and called me vulnerable. None of which bothers me in the slightest, but I do think it quite sad as to just how doggedly you want to demoralise me. It’s like a little pup nipping at my ankles. I’m simply not cruel enough to punt it away.

[Anonymous No.20044360]

>>20044350
Yeah keep spilling your guts to me about your mental state (but with "lmao" thrown in), that'll really convince me that you're not vulnerable. I'm obviously not a good person for you to open up to, this is the sort of lesson I'm saying you should learn.

[Anonymous No.20044375]

>>20044360
>telling you to say whatever you want to me is “spilling my guts”
lmao x2

> I'm obviously not a good person
Ftfy anon. Now be on your way, little doggie. This will only hurt a little.

[Anonymous No.20044423]

>>20044375
I don't know if you are dumb enough to believe that sort of thing yourself, but almost no one else falls for the "I don't care what you think!" line when it comes from someone pouring out paragraphs about their own feelings in response to brief insults. Learn this lesson.

[Anonymous No.20044477]

>30 posters
yikes, meds, cope

[Anonymous No.20044497]

>>20044423
>too dumb to participate in actual on-topic discussion
>thinks he can lecture to me some bullshit non-lesson about “oversharing”
Lmao x3

I’ll write however I want to write, your posturing is meaningless. It’s clear you’re looking for a way to validate your intelligence, and the only way you can do that is by framing this pointless tirade against me as some kind of “lesson”. Sorry dude, I wont learn, you’re not smart enough to teach me anything, and I will continue to post in paragraphs until I stop posting altogether. I’m glad it bothers you though!

[Anonymous No.20044548]

>>20044423
>>20044497
Jesus fucking christ shut the fuck up already you autists

[Anonymous No.20044560]

>>20044497
Mate, you were telling us endlessly about how deeply depressing your life is (and now we have some sense of why). This is not fooling anywone, no matter how many pepes you pull off of google images.

[Anonymous No.20044626]

>>20043972
Thanks

[Anonymous No.20044739]

>>20043247
Everyone has their doubts, but you need to understand this doubt is delusion. You have to reel yourself back into reality and remember laws, transcendental categories, and life don't just spontaneously come into being without a designer.

If you don't give a shit either way, then get a hobby to help mitigate the symptoms of a nihilistic society that creates this unfillable void. That's all that awaits you on the other side.

[Anonymous No.20044749]

>>20044739
>laws, transcendental categories, and life don't just spontaneously come into being without a designer
Why not?

[Anonymous No.20044754]

>>20044739
You're a fucking clown.

[Anonymous No.20044774]

>>20044739
>laws, transcendental categories
These aren't 'things' in the way that you think they are, they're abstractions.

[Anonymous No.20044785]

>>20044749
Because they contradict the existence of a chaotic world where none of these things would exist. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

A simple example would be the law that all information given to us has to be delivered by an intelligent being, whether it be the code on your computer or from the radio. This same law would apply to your genetic code or DNA. It is a requirement by law that an intelligent being exists in this case, and cannot exist in an alternative world where you have it but without any rational accountability for it's existence.

[Anonymous No.20044797]

>>20044785
This is just cope. You're trying to rationalize the existence of God through your biased observations.
Here's the truth: you don't know. Nobody knows. And there's no way to know. So believe in what you want and cope in whichever way you want, but don't act as if your stance is representative of some kind of objective reality, because that's laughably naive.

[Anonymous No.20044827]

>>20044215
based. high iq

[Anonymous No.20044854]

>>20044797
It literally is cope. He already came out and said that his subconscious refuses to accept this and he has to desperately try to convince himself of it.

Plus, even if all that was true it has nothing to do with any specific religion. It's simple deism, functionally the same as atheism.

[Anonymous No.20044860]

>>20044797
I have no reason to "cope". In fact I'd be free to become a hedonistic, nihilist degenerate if I realised it were just a cope all along. I cannot accept that things just randomly happened until the world with perfect constants required for life to exist in the first place happened to exist, or that we aren't folding into ourselves due to some error in the laws of physics, or numbers aren't just happening to mean whatever random value you attribute to it, or that for some reason everyone has the instinct to follow natural law.

My position at least accepts the existence of an objective universe, where Truth and Hierarchy are self-evident.

[Anonymous No.20044866]

>>20044860
>I cannot accept
Yes, as I said: a cope. All your posts are confirmation bias and wishful thinking. It's not good or bad, but you should be aware of it.

[Anonymous No.20044876]

>>20044854
I'm not OP. And yes, it would be the same as deism unless I give an argument for a specific god. But even that isn't functionally the same as atheism, they're different positions with different results.

[Anonymous No.20044882]

>>20044854
I'm OP. I'm not trying to be religious at all, that ship has sailed.

[Anonymous No.20044885]

>>20044785
>You cannot have your cake and eat it too.
Says who?
>A simple example would be the law that all information given to us has to be delivered by an intelligent being
Huh? There's plenty of information that we can obtain by observing nature.
At any rate, nothing "has" to be. Just because you want something to be true doesn't mean it is.

[Anonymous No.20044891]

>>20044866
Yes, "I cannot accept" it because I would be intellectually dishonest to myself otherwise. That isn't "cope" by definition.

[Anonymous No.20044897]

>>20044891
Your position is emotionally driven, you just don't want to acknowledge it. Intellectual honesty would have you be a skeptic.

[Anonymous No.20044904]

>>20044860
>my position at least is 'le coherent' due to establishing a fundamental detail to everything in the world as unquestionable dogma so you don't have to wrestle with grown up questions
congratulations

[Anonymous No.20044909]

>>20044876
>>20044882
what the fuck is wrong with your neurotic redditor brain? go for a walk and come back if and when you can chill out enough not to have a meltdown right in front of us

[Anonymous No.20044912]

>>20044897
I just gave you a list of reasons as to why it isn't a cope and I'd be free to become a degenerate if my position was false. You're projecting hard if you think the intellectually honest position is being a sceptic and anything else is emotionally driven cope.

[Anonymous No.20044914]

>>20044909
You mistook the guy for me so I just posted in order to clarify things, not sure what's wrong with this.

[Anonymous No.20044915]

>>20044891
Except you started this by saying that your inner self has trouble excepting the existence of god. At the very least, is ambiguous what you actually believe.

[Anonymous No.20044916]

>>20044912
>the intellectually honest position is being a sceptic and anything else is emotionally driven cope.
Yes. And learn what "projecting" means.

[Anonymous No.20044920]

>>20044914
What I was saying clearly had to do with the OP, you kow functioning neurotic faggot. Get therapy.

[Anonymous No.20044924]

>>20044914
He's mentally ill and spazzing out for some reason. I'm out of your thread, dude.
>>20044915
I'm not OP.

[Anonymous No.20044928]

>>20044920
*had NOTHING to do with

fuck

[Anonymous No.20044930]

Whenever I fail to see the beauty in this world, I stop to contemplate a small detailed thing; like a flower petal or a bird perched on a fence post. And I can see the creator in these small things and I can feel at peace.

[Anonymous No.20044931]

>>20044920
I don't get why you're seething. Whatever.

[Anonymous No.20044934]

>>20044924
It's about OP, retard, it's about this >>20044739

[Anonymous No.20044936]

>>20044930
When I do that, I see incomprehensible chaos, which is comforting in its own way.

[Anonymous No.20044938]

>>20044934
*NOT about

what the fuck is going on with my computer today

[Anonymous No.20044943]

>>20044916
You're projecting your buzzwords onto me, lad.

[Anonymous No.20044944]

>>20044930
We can sense the weird emotional battle behind these sorts of statements. It's clear that religion is not doing you any favors, it's just fucking with your head.

[Anonymous No.20044948]

>>20044936
All chaos is design we cannot perceive. Things are large, yo.

[Anonymous No.20044959]

>>20044948
What gave you that idea?

[Anonymous No.20044964]

>>20044944
First off, projection, and second, while I don't subscribe to a major organized religion I believe a great mover/creator is a rather logical conclusion. This has no merit to the "fuckedness" of my head.

[Anonymous No.20044965]

>>20044948
>All chaos is design we cannot perceive
Wishful thinking. Instead of being scared when faced with chaos, just let go. I don't understand why people are terrified of a metaphysical lack of order. On the contrary, it's comforting.

[Anonymous No.20044970]

>>20043494
Pressupositionalism is retarded anon. It’s openly circular and is constantly used to justify young earth creationism. It’s the apologetic ideology of answers in genesis. Watch Alex Malpass’s debates with Darth Dawkins and Jay Dyer to see it get debunked by an actual philosopher.

[Anonymous No.20044972]

>>20044965
Your sophomoric take on the nature of being have been recited by teenagers for decades, and are just as old and tired as they have ever been. You can give it a rest.

[Anonymous No.20044976]

>>20044972
Your impotent seething isn't an argument. Sorry that the truth makes you upset but you need to grow out of your copes.

[Anonymous No.20044977]

>>20044959
Divine geometry

[Anonymous No.20044980]

>>20044944
>Whenever I fail to see the beauty in this world,
>(I cope really hard) and I can feel at peace
Do you think that everyone else has the emotional intelligence of a frying pan? Obviously you have some weird mix of guilt, depression, anxiety, etc. going on in side of you.

[Anonymous No.20044984]

>>20044977
lmfao

[Anonymous No.20044985]

>>20044976
lmao seethe

[Anonymous No.20044986]

>>20044964
>Whenever I fail to see the beauty in this world,
>(I cope really hard) and I can feel at peace
Do you think that everyone else has the emotional intelligence of a frying pan? Obviously you have some weird mix of guilt, depression, anxiety, etc. going on in side of you.

[Anonymous No.20044987]

>>20044985
>no u
I accept your concession. Like everyone else, you're unable to substantiate your beliefs by anything that doesn't boil down to "I want to believe". Keep coping

[Anonymous No.20044990]

>>20044972
>if something sounds slightly edgy it must be wrong

[Anonymous No.20044995]

>>20044984
Your counter rebuttal? It's very disingenuous when Atheists ask for proof of order in the universe, it is shown to them definitively in the form of divine geometry, Fibonacci sequence, Fractals, Pi, among others, and they now say, "NO, not that mathematical definitive proof! We want the OTHER proof!"

Well that's the proof shithead. Do you have anything to refute it, or not?

[Anonymous No.20045000]

>>20044986
If you stopped taking SSRI's your God given soul might return you know. The you too can perceive the light of the creator.

[Anonymous No.20045002]

>>20044995
How are all the things you've said proof of anything?
I don't have to "refute" something that isn't an argument. It's very disingenuous when theists take some irrelevant shit and start claiming it's proof of god's existence.

[Anonymous No.20045011]

>>20044995
>the fact that some numbers are the sum of two earlier numbers in a cute list means the universe was made by a sentient and all powerful being

[Anonymous No.20045012]

>>20045002
It's mathematical (read as: definitive,undisputed) proof there is order to the universe.

[Anonymous No.20045016]

>>20045000
I don't have a model for "whenever I fail to see the beauty in this world" because I simply don't have that problem. I'm not a clinically depressed faggot.

[Anonymous No.20045017]

>>20045002
>>20045011
Don't move those goals posts any faster fellas, you'll pull a muscle!

[Anonymous No.20045022]

>>20045012
No, it's mathematical proof that mathematics, which are based on a set of unprovable axioms, form a self-consistent system. lrn2logic
>>20045017
Not an argument, keep coping.

[Anonymous No.20045029]

>>20045016
95-105 IQ? Half Mexican, half white?

[Anonymous No.20045038]

>>20045022
>lrn2logic
You subscribe to systems that confirm your own beliefs. Here's to hoping you grow out of such a hideous personal attribute.

[Anonymous No.20045043]

>>20045038
>You subscribe to systems that confirm your own beliefs
Stop projecting. You're the one who extrapolates silly beliefs out of unrelated systems.

[Anonymous No.20045047]

>>20045017
No one ever accepted the goal posts that numbers looking cute counts as proof of god. This is now officially bait and I got filtered.

[Anonymous No.20045051]

>>20045029
145 IQ, fully white. The difference is I'm not mentally ill and know how to use my intelligence for healthy purposes (hint: spend time outside, and stop being a faggot).

[Anonymous No.20045052]

>>20045047
lrn2math

[Anonymous No.20045059]

>>20045051
Post hand

[Anonymous No.20045061]

>>20043247

[Anonymous No.20045064]

>>20045016
Then you do not truly see the beauty in the world. How sad.

[Anonymous No.20045066]

>>20045059
Part of being intelligent and not being a spic teenager is knowing it's a bad idea to post your body on 4chan. My hand is freckled, pink, and sun damaged on the back, and normal-looking on the front.

[Anonymous No.20045068]

>>20045064
>t.

[Anonymous No.20045073]

>>20045066
You just speak with all the nuance of a jungle ape nigger, so I'm sure you can understand my confusion.

[Anonymous No.20045076]

>>20045068
lmao why do you have that on your computer bro

[Anonymous No.20045078]

>>20045073
BBBBBBBBBRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPsnnnnniiiiiiffffffffffff...oh yes my dear....sssnnnnnnnnnnnniiiiiiiiffffffff....quite pungent indeed...is that....dare I say....sssssssnniff...eggs I smell?......sniff sniff....hmmm...yes...quite so my darling....sniff....quite pungent eggs yes very much so .....ssssssssssssssnnnnnnnnnnnnnnniiiiiiiffffff....ah yes...and also....a hint of....sniff....cheese.....quite wet my dear....sniff...but of yes...this will do nicely....sniff.....please my dear....another if you please....nice a big now....BBBBBBRRRRRRRAAAAAAAPPPPPPPFFFFFFFFLLLLLLLLLPPPPPPPPPFFFFFF Oh yes...very good!....very sloppy and wet my dear....hmmmmm...is that a drop of nugget I see on the rim?...hmmmm.....let me.....let me just have a little taste before the sniff my darling.......hmmmmm....hmm..yes....that is a delicate bit of chocolate my dear....ah yes....let me guess...curry for dinner?....oh quite right I am....aren't I?....ok....time for sniff.....sssssnnnnnnniiiiiiiiffffffff.....hmmm...hhhmmmmm I see...yes....yes indeed as well curry......hmmm....that fragrance is quite noticeable....yes.....onion and garlic chutney I take it my dear?.....hmmmmm....yes quite.....BBBBBBRRRRRRRRPPPPPPFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTTTTTTT Oh I was not expecting that…that little gust my dear….you caught me off guard…yes…so gentle it was though…hmmmm…let me taste this little one…just one small sniff…..sniff…ah….ssssssnnnnnniiiiiffffffffffff…and yet…so strong…yes…the odor….sniff sniff…hmmm….is that….sniff….hmmm….I can almost taste it my dear…..yes….just…sniff….a little whiff more if you please…..ssssssnnnnnniiiiiffffffffff…ah yes I have it now….yes quite….hhhhmmmm…delectable my dear…..quite exquisite yes…..I dare say…sniff….the most pungent one yet my dear….ssssnnnnniiiifffffffffffffffffffffff….yes….

[Anonymous No.20045081]

>>20045076
if you look at the file name, it's pretty clear I had to google it first lol

[Anonymous No.20045083]

>>20045078
Right on cue /int/ posting. Mexican confirmed.

[Anonymous No.20045087]

>>20045081
...lol, sure dude.

[Anonymous No.20045090]

>>20044327
I enjoy hiking. Nice view at the top. But then I go home and wonder why I bother.

[Anonymous No.20045120]

>>20045090
making gay posts on /lit/ is clearly not helping you with this dilemma

[Anonymous No.20045147]

>>20045090
You think you deserve more than divinity/reality, and you are mistaken in that assumption. That is where your dissatisfaction lies.

[Anonymous No.20045158]

>>20045120
I've tried nothing and I'm all out of ideas.

>>20045147
I don't know what this means.

[Anonymous No.20045164]

>>20045158
>I don't know what this means.
It means it's not a "nice view", it's God's divinity on display, and you're an ungrateful turd.

[Anonymous No.20045169]

>>20045158
It means he's a psued faggot. Get over the gay philosophical and religious memes and out and have real and challenging experiences and you'll have a chance to figure what what you actually enjoy doing (it might be quite surprising).

[Anonymous No.20045176]

>>20045164
If god was real then his divinity would be just as much on display on 4chan's disgusting hardcore porn ads and the self-harm marks on your wrists

[Anonymous No.20045179]

>>20045176
It's on display everywhere, constantly. It is all things, you see.

[Anonymous No.20045185]

[Anonymous No.20045194]

>>20045179
obviously was my point, retard

[Anonymous No.20045201]

>>20043247
The way I see it is that we are timebound simpletons, have a toddler-like understanding of the world, but there are things beyond the purveyance of reason, and some of us happen to feel a sense of connection to them (could be a matter of cope gymnastics as you say, or genuine spiritual experience that some people, just like how some people are tone deaf and others have perfect pitch). But even those who have genuine spiritual experiences can only use crude approximations to communicate this, and some of these words become doctrine, and grow into mainstream religions. I believe God is not in the cross, the trinity, any religious tenets- these merely point to the mystery- God is simply beyond the grasp of our minds and we have to accept this.

[Anonymous No.20045203]

>>20045201
no one asked

[Anonymous No.20045210]

>>20045203
Hope you feel better anon

[Anonymous No.20045223]

imagine how much smoother and fruitful discussions would be if we had thread IDs

[Anonymous No.20045230]

>>20045194
Yes, and my point is you are a turd who cannot appreciate beauty here on 4chan, or on a picturesque mountain top, because you refuse to recognize God and His divinity in this world, and that carelessness, is carried inside you both here and there.

[Anonymous No.20045235]

>>20045230
I wasn't that guy begging for help. Life is beautiful, you're still a dumb pseud who should just accept his homosexuality instead of remaining in the closet.

[Anonymous No.20045238]

>>20045169
What would you consider to be 'real challenging experiences'?

[Anonymous No.20045244]

>>20045147
>>20045164
God you are such an obnoxious retard.

[Anonymous No.20045248]

>>20045238
Well it varies but definitely situations where you are going out and testing your abilities and forming relationships with other people. For example, I moved to another state for most a year and worked a weird job that had lots of ups and downs, it did a lot for me.

Are you a NEET who lives at home or something?

[Anonymous No.20045251]

>>20045235
Pursuits of the flesh outside procreation are destructive to pair bonding potentials in future relationships in your life.

[Anonymous No.20045255]

>>20045251
I really didn't ask to be your therapist for your insecurities about being a virgin

[Anonymous No.20045256]

>>20045244
Sure thing, turd.

[Anonymous No.20045263]

>>20045255
Your projection is an expected, but unnecessary defense response.

[Anonymous No.20045264]

There are less than a dozen posts actually on topic ITT. You people are insufferable.

[Anonymous No.20045285]

>>20045263
I've had sex with women (female) before. I'm sure if you try you'll be able to get some pussy one of these days.

[Anonymous No.20045288]

>>20043247
The only thing that worked for my was to embrace nihilism and take comfort in the fact that nothing we do really matters. Everything else felt like self-delusion.

[Anonymous No.20045298]

>>20045288
Yeah of course nothing "really" matters, but there is still plenty of useful wisdom out there that fits with such a view. It's still the same world anyone else is living in, with all the same dynamics.

[Anonymous No.20045300]

>>20044163
Relatable. You were never "beta testing" yourself, however. The simulations we run in our minds do little to effect our behavior in the moment. They're just meaningless games and pledges. To become a better man, one needs to act. Acting, and fucking up, is beta testing.

[Anonymous No.20045332]

>>20045264
It's a retarded topic that doesn't deserve respect. In truth, he wanted these 'le sad' posts from the get-go.

[Anonymous No.20045334]

>>20043450
Tf is meaninglessnes? What does it mean? Just a passing feeling same as religious ecstasy. I would argue the religious impulse is similar to the empty feeling of insignificance. In one case a man feels like a tiny speck beneath an unknowable infinite divine, another feels like a tiny insignificant speck before the vastness of the universe. For both it is the sensation of the smallness of the human, of powerlesnes. There's no difference between the anguish of an atheist facing nothingness and the anxious delight of the believer--both spring from the same fundamental impulse.

[Anonymous No.20045342]

>>20045285
And what of my argument concerning pair boding later in life being damaged by promiscuous sexual behavior? will you impregnate THAT lesson Casanova?

[Anonymous No.20045377]

>>20043538
>that humans have had genuine faith in concepts throughout time to store abstract cosmological truths and one dominated all of those - Christianity.
Only if you ignore all the other religions that have and still exist. I could ask the very same question about any religion with a major following. Appealing to the fact that many smart people believed in it is not a real argument for Christianity. For every Christian intellectual I could easily find another that practiced a different faith.

[Anonymous No.20045530]

>>20045342
so are you a virgin or aren't you? You've painted yourself into a corner here.

[Anonymous No.20045552]

>>20045530
One of our arguments has merit, and deserves a response. and the other doesn't. Can you guess which?