Was this ever acceptably refuted?

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Anonymous Thu Feb 17 10:00:11 2022 No.19940148 [Reply] [Original]

Was this ever acceptably refuted?

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 10:06:34 2022 No.19940173

>>19940148
It refutes itself in the first line
Evil does not predate God or exist without him
Evil is whatever God decides is evil
God’s actions cannot, by definition, ever be evil
And since God causes everything to happen and exist, nothing that is outside human’s free will can ever be considered evil
Yes, including “muh childruhn with cancer”

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 10:07:49 2022 No.19940179 >God(all powerful) must adhere to my arbitrarily decided code of conduct or else...le he isn't God

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 10:09:44 2022 No.19940186 >>19940148 Augustine of Hippo

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 10:25:04 2022 No.19940234 >>19940148 no >>19940173 >>19940179 this kind of intuitively incoherent and desperate cope is all it took to turn me away from christianity

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 10:33:25 2022 No.19940261 >>19940173 If that's the case, that refutes the concept of commandments, and undermines the entire point of most religious ethics. I'm pretty sure this is a BTFO for all western organised religion.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 10:35:08 2022 No.19940268 >>19940148 Epicurus never even said that. Hell, he didn't even believe in a monitheistic, all-bebevolent god.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 10:35:20 2022 No.19940272 >>19940173 >Evil is whatever God decides is evil then by definition god is evil, since he created evil and evil is a part of him

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 10:37:54 2022 No.19940277 >>19940261 >anon realises Epicurus is attacking traditional religion and not the existence of God(s) Read the letter to Menoeceus. You too, op.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 10:38:43 2022 No.19940281 >>19940148 He never even said that.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 10:38:43 2022 No.19940282 >>19940148 Why cant god be malevolent?

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 10:40:12 2022 No.19940286

>>19940268
it most probably is or maybe Carneades ,this monotheistic version was adapted by Hume, the original involved a group og gods,anyways this was his way of saying that the gods are not of human characteristic like morality, but a more complex cluster of fundamental particles, which compone all existence, that is, the gods are a higher form of existence but not a different form of existence, more like a buddhist deva and less a creator and lawmaking god

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 10:40:19 2022 No.19940287 >>19940148 Malevolent according to who? God is morality. There isn't any other moral metric.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 10:40:42 2022 No.19940288 >>19940173 Lmao hard cope retard

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 11:13:16 2022 No.19940462
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>>19940148
>omnipotent
Source?
>malevolent
A pathetic, effeminate whine. What meaning does "evil" have, if the heavenly kingdom is true and life after death exists? There is absolutely no meaning to your sufferings on this earthly plane, if after your death you are raised into heavenly bliss.
The argument here is obviously made from an atheistic point of view, where the speaker does not believe in the afterlife promised for Christians. There is no other way they would make this argument otherwise. (Except complete retardation)

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 13:22:15 2022 No.19941198 File: 172 KB, 890x580, 1642625414169.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19940148 as someone who's not a christian, i fucking hate atheists

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 14:26:31 2022 No.19941524 >>19940148 What is evil?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 14:42:30 2022 No.19941629 >>19940282 So in the end gnostics were right all along?

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 14:47:38 2022 No.19941668

>>19940148
God is not all powerful and has limited control over the material, our conciousness is what God is and is directly connected to him.
You live in a Godly manner not because God will punish you if you don't, it's because by living so you are farther from the material and closer to him and closer to yourself too. He allows us sentience and is infitely loving and knowing, he's just not infitely powerful.
The world is suffering not because of God or his negligence, but because of forces that wish to undermine him and subvert yourself so you stay connected to the material.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 14:47:39 2022 No.19941669 The issue is in the last line. Why does a God have to be perfect? Why can't God just be substantially powerful? Also it just kind of throws you off from the "okay pick one" angle by drawing a conclusion based on picking neither.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 15:46:12 2022 No.19942028 >>19940462 Evil implying there's a possibility of damnation, which is by definition against god. How is that possible that people can be damned, yet are from god?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 15:48:33 2022 No.19942035 >>19941669 God does have to be perfect, since god himself is by definition the creator of all and the highest being. If he isn't perfect then something could be more perfect than it's own creator and that by nature is a logical contradition.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 15:48:55 2022 No.19942036 >>19941668 >God is not all powerful Then he's not God.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 15:49:56 2022 No.19942041 >>19941669 It's a central tenet in the majority of Chrisitan belief systems that God is perfect.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 15:52:19 2022 No.19942053 >>19942035 The most powerful thing in the universe does not have to be perfect. Don't know how you even got that idea.

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 15:52:42 2022 No.19942055

>>19940148
Epicurus never said that. I don't care about your stupid theological bullshit argument as it's completely pointless but i just dont understand why you have to tarnish Epicurus's name. Leave him out of this, you fucking mongoloid. Why would an ancient greek philosopher even refer to God as a singular and why would he use retarded christian morality, when greek gods are canonically assholes (not evil though).

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 15:53:36 2022 No.19942062 >>19942041 It's not inherent to the concept of God, the fact that some gay marketers for Christianity stuck that line on there doesn't mean you can't think another way.

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 15:53:51 2022 No.19942066

Lol at the cristians defending this imperfect god shit. How the fuck can they justify the fact that if god isn't all powerful, then it is possible to logically reason that something could in theory stop god. If that is the case then their idea of god belittles the concept to something that is controllable or fallible. So if God is controllable and fallible, then what does that make the being that can control god?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 15:55:06 2022 No.19942077 >>19942062 Oh, I agree completely, there are many concepts of God apart from the Christian one. The epicurean paradox mostly addresses the inconsistencies present in Christian theology.

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 15:55:35 2022 No.19942078

>>19942055
It is very dubious but Judaism and Hellenism were influencing each other at the time of his life. Monotheism was not the norm at the time but it wasn't unheard of either, and polytheistic religions still usually have a sort of 'over god' and also most of them have a fully monotheistic wing that interprets the multiple gods as faces of one God.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 15:56:47 2022 No.19942086 >>19940179 he could have created me otherwise

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 15:59:57 2022 No.19942111

>>19942053
I dont know where you got the idea that god is the most """powerful""" thing in the universe. God is the creator of everything, is he not? Surely then everything he created is governable by him? It makes no sense to claim that god created everything yet cannot control the very things he created. Logic, the concept of "power" and existence ends with him, since he created it.

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:01:07 2022 No.19942123

>>19942066
>then it is possible to logically reason that something could in theory stop god
I'm not a christian but that's a pretty important part of the christian concept, honestly. Abrahamic "monotheistic" religions are really just dualist religions (like Zoroastrianism) with the balance of power tilted so God is stronger than the devil rather than on-par, they still include the claim that the devil gets to win sometimes. The only real inconsistency here *is* the claim that God is omnipotent, it just doesn't make sense that way. Giving up on that retarded assertion makes it internally consistent again.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:02:08 2022 No.19942135 >>19942111 >It makes no sense to claim that god created everything yet cannot control the very things he created Retarded statement. Do your parents control everything you do?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:04:03 2022 No.19942151 >>19942135 >parents are omnipotent beings

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:04:50 2022 No.19942160 >>19942151 The whole point I'm arguing is that God is not an omnipotent being. You're just bouncing off the walls with random statements.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:05:05 2022 No.19942162 File: 92 KB, 1193x1193, v4pipdcdlqj41.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19940272 Lmfao how can the christletts come back from this one

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:07:19 2022 No.19942177 >>19942086 Your mom letting your dad gape her little pussy with his fat cock and letting him blow massive loads of cum onto her cervix is what allowed you to be created.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:07:23 2022 No.19942178 >not omnipotent >not perfect not god

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:08:25 2022 No.19942190 >>19942177 in which case god is malevolent

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:08:36 2022 No.19942195 >>19942178 Why couldn't simply being 1000000000x times more intelligent and powerful than humans meet the standard?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:09:37 2022 No.19942207 >>19942190 based

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:11:24 2022 No.19942226 >>19940148 Hobbes argument, god is an uncomprehensible beign for us the mortals, we are no one to try to decipher his logic, we are just inferior to him, his logic is way beyond of our capacity

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:12:36 2022 No.19942235

>>19942135
How is that analogy relevant to the discussion lmfao, I can clearly see you aren't very sharp. Firstly, parents are not comparable to the concept of god since they themselves are governed by higher didactic powers. The point (that you clearly missed) is that god created the very concept of power that you used in your reply. How can he not have complete control over something that originated within himself?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:14:06 2022 No.19942258 >>19942195 because that is nowhere close to omnipotence, in the same way infinity trumps your number. I stand in a similar relation to bacteria for example

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:18:33 2022 No.19942303 >>19942123 Surely the creator of the very nature of any possible reality would be omnipotent itself, since everything that will ever happen itself is also omnipotent? He is pantheistic in Christianity after all.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:20:04 2022 No.19942317 >>19942235 >How can he not have complete control over something that originated within himself? Why would he not? Of course you can make things that run away from your control. The power to make something is just that, it's not unlimited power.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:21:05 2022 No.19942321 >>19942258 Omnipotence does not have to be the standard for God, that's what I'm saying.

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:22:05 2022 No.19942329

>>19942303
>Surely the creator of the very nature of any possible reality would be omnipotent itself, since everything that will ever happen itself is also omnipotent?
All I can say to that is "no", it simply doesn't follow. There's no reason to think omnipotence has any presence here.

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:24:56 2022 No.19942351

>>19942317
why make a thing without a perfected will which would intimately understand the full implications of disobeying God, and give this thing complete powers over its emotions and intellect. Then who would disobey God? And yet the decision would still be a free one, merely none would choose un-Godly imperfect choices as none would possess those qualities which, owing to their imperfection, would lead one to even consider rebellion.

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:25:25 2022 No.19942354

>>19942317
>of course you can make things that run away from your control

YOU can, but God cannot.
If everything that is created originates from that creator, then nothing can deviate from that presupposed path. If it does, then there are higher powers at work, which means the creator wasn't god.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:26:54 2022 No.19942363 >>19942321 it should be?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:27:56 2022 No.19942374 >>19942329 Illogical response and anyone with a scrap of intelligence wont take this contradictory bullshit serious.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:29:10 2022 No.19942384 >>19942354 You can be a higher power in a sort of 'average' way but still face limitations from lesser powers. This seems obvious to me.

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:29:50 2022 No.19942387

>>19940282
He could.
>>19941629
The "evil god" in gnosticism is the Demiurge. But he is an inferior being to a sort of true God. It is with him you are trying reunite. So the problem of evil still applies to them.
However, Jews, at least some of them, do not believe God is omnipotent. So it doesn't apply to them.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:30:12 2022 No.19942391 >>19942374 You're losing your shit because I'm not accepting your ridiculous headcanon. Why do you think omnipotence has anything to do with it? The fact that the world exists does not imply omnipotence.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:31:10 2022 No.19942401 why is God not omnipotent?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:31:12 2022 No.19942403 >>19942363 what?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:32:13 2022 No.19942412 >>19942351 >why make a thing without a perfected will what the fuck are you talking about?

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:33:34 2022 No.19942423

>>19942391
You make illogical statements regarding existence and what you consider power, yet you fail to grasp the meaning of God itself. I'm not losing my shit, I just don't understand how someone can argue that god, who created power itself, isn't all powerful. It makes no sense logically.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:33:51 2022 No.19942426 >>19942403 omnipotence should be the standard for god

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:38:00 2022 No.19942458

>>19942384
>lesser powers
Lesser powers were created by God, which would mean by definition they are completely governable by him. If they aren't, something exists in these lesser powers that didn't originate from God, and could theoretically undermine or govern God. Therefore, god isn't the highest power himself, but one of those "lesser powers" that you referred to. This defeats your entire argument and should make you think about what the word God should mean.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:38:25 2022 No.19942460 >>19942423 Making the power can create more power over which you have no control. It's like how the first cell doesn't have any control over you or me. There is no issue here.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:39:26 2022 No.19942468 >>19942426 Then just come out and say that, faggot. No need to put "umm sweetie???" on your posts. In any case, we've reached the end. You have your subjective opinion, and I disagree.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:40:39 2022 No.19942477 >>19942468 okay sweetie

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:40:49 2022 No.19942480 >>19942460 >using a science analogy to try and refute a purely logical discussion You really are a brainlett lmfao

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:42:55 2022 No.19942497

>>19942458
I think there can be a plurality of powers. Saying God can overcome metaphysical "powers" like logic and continuity is pretty silly.
>This defeats your entire argument and should make you think about what the word God should mean
Still, maybe I didn't present it well. I'm not a religious person but I am open to some kind of a God, but I don't define this God in "my dad can beat up your dad!" terms. I just mean some kind of an overreaching sentient spirit. Doesn't even necessarily have to have made the universe.

Would you agree that if that is true, it's a pretty profound thing and would contradict atheism?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:44:03 2022 No.19942509 File: 151 KB, 1200x495, 1644395325810.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19942480 your "logical discussion" is literally just declaring a bunch of baseless rules

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:47:41 2022 No.19942537

>>19942460
Except you keep making analogy's that are complete irrelevant strawmen attempts to undermine the real deliberation here. God isn't just something that can create other powers that act out of their own volition. God by definition should be omnipotent, or else you're admitting their is no such thing as God, just beings that act upon this reality, yet don't exist outside of it at any higher level and can have other beings overpower them, this is starting to sound like a very humanistic concept isn't it.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:48:42 2022 No.19942542 >>19942509 And the same goes for whatever illogical bullshit you keep shovelling

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:50:39 2022 No.19942551

>>19942537
>God isn't just something that can create other powers that act out of their own volition.
autistic fun time with useless declarations of rules, there is substance to any of that.
>God by definition should be omnipotent
you could have just come out and said this since you a priori reject my premise that the definition doesn't have to include omnipotence, this all just comes down to baselessly saying im 'le wrong' without any arguable points

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:51:40 2022 No.19942553 >>19942542 >whatever illogical bullshit shows you've been seething so hard you can't even characterize what I'm saying

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:55:45 2022 No.19942576
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This argument only applies to a very autistic modern conception of God. Historically the concepts of most gods didn't satisfy any of those claims.
>then why call him God?
Because the people who invented the word did

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:56:52 2022 No.19942580 >>19940173 so this is the power of christcucks...

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:57:16 2022 No.19942582 >>19940148 test

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:58:03 2022 No.19942588 >>19942582 you have been banned from 4chan for violating US law, this ban will not expire

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 16:58:52 2022 No.19942592

>>19942497
Firstly, thankyou for asking a question. Sometimes I find people can be more dialectical when open questions are presented with statements.
>Saying God can overcome metaphysical "powers" like logic and continuity is pretty silly.
God is the creator of these concepts. If he didn't create these concepts then he is answerable to an omnipotent law of logic that undermines his own powers
but I am open to some kind of a God, but I don't define this God in "my dad can beat up your dad!" terms.
The point that I make is that if something exists that is ungovernable by your god and which that said god has to act in accordance to, then that thing which he operates within is god.
>Would you agree that if that is true, it's a pretty profound thing and would contradict atheism?
Atheism is really just a method that scientists use to refute the God of Abrahamic religions. It doesnt by any means undermine the reasoning for an omnipotent being.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:01:17 2022 No.19942609 >>19942553 You actually think that god isn't omnipotent haha, classic paradoxical shit from the christcucks once again. Tell me, why does god have to act in accordance to universal laws?

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:04:27 2022 No.19942624

>>19942592
> he is answerable to an omnipotent law of logic that undermines his own powers
Come on man, no conception of God actually puts him above all logic. For example "the universe has to exist to exist", who could even try to say that their fantasy version of God can work around that? This just breaks God on a conceptual level and dodges the whole discussion.

I think we should try to move past retarded premises that priests used to scare medieval peasants so we can talk about a more arguable point. My idea is something along the lines of a spirit that steered the world in a way to make the human race. What do you think about that?

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:06:52 2022 No.19942635

>>19942609
I made it clear I am not a christcuck, and I don't know if anything like a god exists.
>haha
>Tell me, why does god have to act in accordance to universal laws?
You're really bad at these rhetorical games, honestly. No one believes you're laughing rather than seething and you asked me a ridiculous and unanswerable question as a leading question. I genuinely don't know what you think the answer is supposed to be, doesn't work.

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:11:41 2022 No.19942676

>>19942551
>useless declaration of rules
And what, prey tell, do you define ""God"" as? Evidently something that doesn't have control over it's own creation, meaning that a higher order of power
and logic exists that your definition of god has to operate within. Can you please tell me what you consider that higher power to be?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:13:09 2022 No.19942685 >>19942635 It doesn't work because your logic is flawed

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:14:49 2022 No.19942699 >>19942676 I've made it very clear I'm not going by some autistic "um well my god is bigger than yours!" definition. Something like "the great spirit" would do it for me.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:15:50 2022 No.19942708 >>19942685 Just saying the word "logic" a bunch of times doesn't make you logical, little boy.

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:18:08 2022 No.19942720

>>19942624
>no conception of God actually puts him above all logic
Then, by definition, Logic itself is the true God since god is governed by it.
>"the universe has to exist to exist"
I dont see the relevance. The point in God is that their is a power that governs all else.
>My idea is something along the lines of a spirit that steered the world in a way to make the human race. What do you think about that?
That is entirely plausible, but doesn't refute the discussion regarding an omnipotent being that all else is operating because of.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:19:26 2022 No.19942729 >>19942708 Amazing counter argument, it really discredited my argument sincerely. I didnt know I was deliberating with someone who operated above logical conclusions.

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:21:11 2022 No.19942741
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>>19942720
>Then, by definition, Logic itself is the true God since god is governed by it.
wrong
>but doesn't refute the discussion regarding an omnipotent being that all else is operating because of.
obviously that isn't the discussion and I'm not trying to 'le refoot' it, lets not invite new retarded angles into this already way too silly discussion

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:22:12 2022 No.19942750 >>19942729 >It doesn't work because your logic is flawed is not an argument, little boy

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:25:04 2022 No.19942769 >>19940148 You'll have to ask God when you see him

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:25:09 2022 No.19942771

>>19942635
The answer is you are misusing the word god, and using it to define a being with just 'some' power. This contradicts what god itself means since by your definition anything that has dominion over anything else, yet is not above all else, is god. This would mean that everything is god, therefore everything adds up to a whole and that whole is by definition omnipotent.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:26:11 2022 No.19942778 >>19942750 See >>19942771

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:28:11 2022 No.19942794 >>19942771 These are just silly semantic games for autistic children. Obviously there is a definable difference between being the biggest ant in the ant pile, being something like Zeus, and being 'le super omnilogical God who rapes space and time'.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:29:11 2022 No.19942798 >>19942778 weak

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:31:03 2022 No.19942808 >>19942123 > Abrahamic "monotheistic" religions are really just dualist religions Quite the opposite. Do you get your theology knowledge from memes and shitposts?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:32:04 2022 No.19942817 Seneca thought Epicurus was a self repudiating fag who misunderstood things as simple as Stilbo.

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:33:20 2022 No.19942823

>>19942741
>wrong
How so? Your god is governed by this thing we call logic, so logic is your God's God.
>two google definitions of god, both based in religious dogmatism, one of which mentions moral authority.
How can this so called God have moral authority if he himself adheres to logical rules set in place by another being? That itself proves he is under some sort of control.

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:33:37 2022 No.19942829

>>19942808
Do you get yours from sunday school after your priest is done touching you? Everyone who has even somewhat seriously studied Christianity from a comparative angle knows this, there's no other way to explain the devil and the 'battle between good and evil'. Take 5 minutes and read about Revelations on wikipedia since it's obvious you don't know anything about it.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:35:15 2022 No.19942843 >>19942823 Gods can have other gods, why not? But logic is not a 'being' so it doesn't apply. I think it's pretty obvious that logic is sort of un-created but maybe you see it differently.

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:37:41 2022 No.19942861

>>19940148

*sigh* I think I got something for this.

*reaches under bed and pulls out dust-laden trunk*

Now where did I put it....

*rifles through trunk wantonly*

No no of course not goatse, nor green lex luthor...."times you acted like the Driver" no not you either...

*photos of tuna meltchan and brian peppers fly out*

ah here we go! Old faithful. Well, now or never boys.

>*tips fedora*

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:40:19 2022 No.19942872 File: 23 KB, 351x390, mantiphat.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19942861 Howdy, pilgrim.

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:41:02 2022 No.19942875

>>19942794
And you finally agree with me, albeit through gritted teeth haha. You seem to lack the ability to think critically regarding logical assertions and revert to mindlessly larping that the real meaning of god is just another being that is governable. This contradicts the very idea that existence is governed, yet for some reason you just think I'm "making it up". I suggest you consider the importance of the dichotomy between free will and determinism before you continue.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:42:50 2022 No.19942882 >>19942771 Holy shit finally someone who gets it

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:45:07 2022 No.19942899

>>19942875
Mate, that did not follow whatsoever. You have your retard definition of God that only fits the God that you will hear described from a seething religious child who says "um well your logic doesn't count because God lives beyond logic!!!", and I have a much more practical version that covers concepts like Zeus, The Great Spirit, etc. There's really not much to this, you're just seething that I held and continue to hold a non-retard definition of God.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:45:35 2022 No.19942902 >>19942771 This is some Wittgensteinian Spinozian type profundity, based and intellectual and has the cristcucks rustled and resorting to ad hominems, beautiful to behold.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:46:19 2022 No.19942908 >>19942882 >God is the sum of all the power in the universe, doesn't matter if the individual powers in it have anything to do with each other autistic games for children

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:47:20 2022 No.19942912 >>19942902 okay mate you blew your cover, you almost had me the first time but this is simply pathetic

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:51:28 2022 No.19942937

>>19942899
You don't understand what logic even is, so there is really no way of you understanding that it cannot possibly undermine god. You consider deities practical and "non-retarded" after the fact that something undermines their governance and makes them fallible. Why consider these dieties gods in the first place if they dont even rule themselves?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:52:56 2022 No.19942944 >>19942937 Because is not essential in order to be a god, retard. Lots of religions have 'gods over gods'.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:54:06 2022 No.19942946 >>19942908 You refute all logic and the concept of an omnipotent being by declaring that it's all autistic games for children, I knew you were a midwit but now I'm starting to think you're actually retarded lol

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:55:18 2022 No.19942948 >>19942946 >you refute the concept of an omnipotent being Okay, that's basically been my goal here.

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:56:56 2022 No.19942959

>>19942944
Then they aren't Gods at all you dumb fucker, they're beings that have power. All beings have power, what sets them apart from God is that they aren't omnipotent and omnipresent. You argue that it's all semantics haha, you do realise all language and logic is based on semantics?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:57:54 2022 No.19942963 >>19942959 Some semantics are better than others, mine is actually backed by the dictionary >>19942741

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 17:59:39 2022 No.19942967 >>19942944 See >>19942771 This is where your logic takes you.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 18:01:59 2022 No.19942983 >>19942967 this is plain cringe

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 18:03:16 2022 No.19942989 >>19942963 Those two definitions are based on Abrahamic Gods that contradict the very reasoning you're using lol. That god is considered to be Omnipotent and Omnipresent.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 18:04:47 2022 No.19942996 >>19942983 Back to re ddit with your shit tier understanding of God

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 18:16:15 2022 No.19943052 >>19942899 This cunt is just arbitrarily tacking on ideas of what he considers "God", and then insulting the other guy for having a logically grounded idea of what God means, hilarious. Evidently not the smartest cookie in the Jar.

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 18:26:11 2022 No.19943121

>>19942948
You claim you have refuted the idea of an omnipotent being, yet all you have offered in way of argument is your definition of God that is governable and bound by logic. How is that refuting an omnipotent being? Seriously some dumb cunts on /lit/ nowadays

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 18:27:57 2022 No.19943134 >>19942989 One of them clearly pertains to polytheist deities. Are you illiterate?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 18:28:58 2022 No.19943140 >>19942996 I accept your concession, faggot.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 18:30:12 2022 No.19943151 >>19943121 I didn't claim to have refuted an omnipotent being, you made that claim of me. Retard.

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 18:33:38 2022 No.19943179

>>19943151
Retard you originally said that God isn't omnipotent, your argument fell flat on it's face after some guy said it must mean that your concept of god has its own ruler, thereby admitting admitting to a power hierarchy that ends at omnipotence.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 18:34:49 2022 No.19943187 >>19943134 And? That still doesn't discredit my original point that God must be omnipotent or he isn't the true God

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 18:35:12 2022 No.19943189 >>19943179 I never said "god is not omnipotent", no part of this discussion has been about what actually exists or not. I'm just arguing that god doesn't have to be. You have schizophrenia.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 18:35:57 2022 No.19943196 >>19943140 Your logic collapses after you admitted your God is governable haha

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 18:36:13 2022 No.19943199 >>19943187 Polytheist deities are not omnipotent, retard >True God Okay so this is going the No True Scotsman route. I accept your concession

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 18:37:13 2022 No.19943203 >>19943196 It absolutely does not and you have failed to articulate that, even with your pathetic "haha"s

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 18:40:31 2022 No.19943220

>>19943189
>I never said "god is not omnipotent", no part of this discussion has been about what actually exists or not.
Things you've said:
>The fact that the world exists does not imply omnipotence
>God is not all powerful
>There's no reason to think omnipotence has any presence here.
You clearly contradicted yourself numerous times and have no strong logical understanding if what God is

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 18:41:50 2022 No.19943231 >>19943199 No it just proves your concept of God isn't the supreme being and therefore is just another entity under the one substance. You really have put yourself in a corner logically

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 18:42:22 2022 No.19943235

>>19943220
All of those pertain to a theoretical discussion and the fact you can't tell that from "does god exist?" is pathetic.
>and have no strong logical understanding if what God is
what's the point of saying something like this when you don't believe in God?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 18:43:23 2022 No.19943244 >>19943231 >your concept of God isn't the supreme being It doesn't (logic isn't a "being") but that's not a problem to me, obviously.

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 18:48:51 2022 No.19943284

>>19943203
If your god is governable, it is no different that anything else in existence. What sets your God apart from anything else? Your concept seems to imply that you have no care what you consider a God as long as it fits into preconceived notions that have been set in place by flawed theological reasoning and arbitrary concepts of power. The omnipotent being which I describe by default undermines the necessity of your God and proves that your understanding of what God is, is flawed.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 18:50:26 2022 No.19943293 >>19943244 "Being" is just a word Logic can be God, it's just your uneducated mind just cannot conceive of this concept and strives to denounce it without sound logical analysis.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 18:51:58 2022 No.19943309 >>19943293 >>19943284 Once again, saying the word logic as many times as possible does not make you logical. This is pathetic and I can smell the tears flowing over your keyboard.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 18:54:28 2022 No.19943325 File: 410 KB, 839x768, 1598306792592.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19943284 >Odin and a potato are the same thing because neither is omnipotent

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 18:57:31 2022 No.19943342 >>19943325 If we are talking about what should be considered God, then yes, Odin and a Potato both lack the ability to be omnipotent and omnipresent.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 19:01:12 2022 No.19943362 >>19943342 We're all aware of your retard definition of God. It's wrong though.

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 19:03:19 2022 No.19943382

>>19943309
So now you've resorted to just focus on ny use of the word logic (which you also used in your reply) instead of your flawed reasoning full of construed contradiction, really isn't helping your argument there.
You evidently dont take what you say seriously or you lack certain critical skills in your thinking if you consider old concepts of Gods that were constructed out of dogmatic fears and beliefs more rational than an omnipotent substance

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 19:05:31 2022 No.19943396 >>19943362 And your definition is literally "hurr someone who is more powerful than me I guess, it's deffo not the most powerful being though and that being I'm just not going to consider because hurrrr doesn't matter durrr" Honestly pathetic

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 19:05:58 2022 No.19943399 >>19943382 >an omnipotent substance This is fiction and no amount of reddit-tier attempts at trying to pretend to be intelligent will change reality.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 19:06:59 2022 No.19943406 >>19943396 you really just such at arguing, you violated your own structure there

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 19:08:04 2022 No.19943411 >>19943406 You dont even argue, you just say how bad I am and how much I overuse the word and completely gloss over the points. Seems like your ego gets in the way of dialectical discussion

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 19:10:33 2022 No.19943431
File: 230 KB, 500x913, 1591049478622.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

So to sum up.
>some redditor screams for 2 hours because people go by the dictionary definition of "god" instead of his own silly definition
>he makes a gay "maybe the world is god??" post and samefags to it with four replies jerking himself off in an obnoxiously obvious way that insults our intelligence
>he cries when no one accepts his bullshit

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 19:13:42 2022 No.19943446

>>19943399
>this is fiction because I say it is
>proceeds to ignore my points and attack how the argument is constructed, not what the argument says
You are full of ideas yet have no idea why you consider them to be true or even why you find it necessary to think them. I recommend introspection and maybe read up on some Philosophy that deals with the concept of a higher power, you clearly are out of your depth here.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 19:15:18 2022 No.19943452 >>19943431 No one agrees with your misconstrued concepts of God, nor with your glossing over of a higher omnipotent being. Go back to shitposting dumb frog cunt.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 19:18:40 2022 No.19943472 File: 89 KB, 660x574, c27.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19943431 judging by all these replies i have just read, you are the one that lacks the ability to think critically, not the other guy

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 19:56:51 2022 No.19943680

>>19940148
Easy. This life is a testing ground. You get challenges, sometimes even to death. This is a purification of the soul. Heat and pressure are "evil" to a piece of coal that gets turned into a diamond. The forge is "evil" to the piece of metal that gets turned into a gate. Pain and suffering are "evil" to the people whose soul is purified through it.
You've never heard of the bank of souls?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 20:17:02 2022 No.19943818 >>19943446 >>19943452 >>19943472 absolutely no one believes your samefagging, git gud

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 20:18:17 2022 No.19943827 >>19940148 >acceptably Some people are so sad and angry they would never accept any refutation, which is why this argument is still shilled around >My life is bad! HOW COULD THERE BE A GOOD GOD

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 20:20:19 2022 No.19943842

>>19943827
Cope. You don't have a refutation. If God was all powerful and had perfect intentions the world would be perfect. There's really no way around that other than saying "okay so maybe God isn't quite like that and there are other factors in play".

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 20:22:50 2022 No.19943862

>>19943396
You are literally retarded anon. There is no reason to think that because somebody (god or otherwise) sets something in motion means that that somebody knows or could know everything that would occur from it. Using your definition, an entity could be the most powerful entity in the universe, could have created the universe, could interact in the affairs of mortals, sway wars, kill people and destroy worlds at will, but if it couldn't literally predict the future of eternity but instead only predict 10 thousand years into the future, then that wouldn't be god. Brainlet take here.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 20:23:25 2022 No.19943866 >>19943842 We're not in the Garden of Eden anymore, sally.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 20:24:13 2022 No.19943871 >>19943842 Look here >>19943680

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 20:25:46 2022 No.19943880 >>19943866 What are you even trying to express here?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 20:26:47 2022 No.19943886 >>19943871 None of that does anything to address the dilemma.

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 20:30:47 2022 No.19943922

>>19943862
>but instead only predict 10 thousand years into the future, then that wouldn't be god
His view is way more retarded than that. He thinks that if a being had unlimited power over the tangible facets of the universe but was limited by some basic "rules" of logic, it wouldn't be god.

That's just normal autistic commitment to an idea though, I've seen that before. What I'm scratching my head over is him presenting this model that tries to disprove the abstract concept of a god in a thorough manner that I wouldn't have even supported in my 14 year old anti-theist days, and then turning around and telling me it all means God is real.
>God would have to satisfy all these ridiculously absurd principles to exist
>therefore God exists
what?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 20:33:35 2022 No.19943935 >>19943922 Lev Shestov wrote an entire book about God not being constrained by logic so some people do consider it a problem worth addressing.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 20:35:01 2022 No.19943942 >>19943935 Did anyone say they think no one else considers it a "problem worth addressing"?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 20:35:51 2022 No.19943948 >>19943886 Evil is not real, it's a purification process we go through to achieve perfection ourselves. The entire question is nonsensical, like a tree complaining about the heat of the sun that nourishes it.

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 20:37:55 2022 No.19943956

>>19943680
>>19943948
Why make life harder than it has to be? Why do some people suffer more than others? What kind of 'test' is it for a baby a few minutes old to die, or inside the womb even? God could easily test us in a fairer and less horrible way. Or not test us tall, why purify what can be pure to begin with, etc.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 20:39:22 2022 No.19943962 >>19943948 >Evil is not real I agree with you but for reasons that completely contradict your own. Having any sort of moral absolutism inherently involves acknowledging the existence of evil.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 20:39:32 2022 No.19943963 >>19943942 You implied it was something only a stupid person would care about

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 20:40:23 2022 No.19943970 >>19943956 >>19943680 It's basically the Candide idea, if this is actually the best of all possible worlds then you should be horrified.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 20:41:50 2022 No.19943977 >>19943963 I most certainly did not. Smart people look into useless ideas all the time, and this idea still might be useful as a logical exercise.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 20:44:01 2022 No.19943991 >>19943977 I don't think its useless. Reason must be something God created so he should be able to transcend it.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 20:45:24 2022 No.19944000 >>19943991 >Reason must be something God created mmmm no, very unwise

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 20:45:49 2022 No.19944004 >>19944000 And why is it unwise to think that?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 20:46:14 2022 No.19944006 >>19944000 Is reason superior to God then, did it exist without or before him?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 20:46:36 2022 No.19944007 File: 87 KB, 630x630, yikes.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19940173

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 20:49:12 2022 No.19944026 >>19944006 God is not real (at least not in the autistic way you want to define him) and "reason" basically isn't either. Reason is the practice just people trying to make sense of things, it isn't really 'a thing' itself.

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 20:49:31 2022 No.19944028

>>19943970
Who says this is the best of all possible worlds? What would make you think that?
>>19943956
As analogy, some ores are more iron-rich than others. Those ores require less work (pain and suffering) to get to an acceptable state than others iron-poor ores.
Have you heard of the bank of souls?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 20:50:24 2022 No.19944036 >>19944026 >god isnt real >reason isnt real either Well that will conclude our conversation, not going to be any point going any further.

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 20:52:19 2022 No.19944050

>>19944028
It's not, but you seem to think that it is. If God is all powerful and his intentions are perfect, the end result should be perfect.

It's pretty hard to say this world is perfect but I can entertain the discussion as a Talmudic debate practice session, but saying the world is not perfect simply requires you to abandon at least part of the initial premise.

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 20:54:20 2022 No.19944062

>>19944036
It's clear to me that you have autism and really like playing with trains and shit and have a hard time accepting that the principles of those sorts of things do not carry over into abstract thinking. In what sense could reason be more than just a description of human expression?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 20:56:07 2022 No.19944070 >>19943956 >What kind of 'test' is it for a baby a few minutes old to die, or inside the womb even? its really more of a test of the parents suffering the loss of their child.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 20:56:23 2022 No.19944073 >>19944062 In the sense that it's a metaphysical law created by or emanating from God.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 20:58:27 2022 No.19944081 File: 1.70 MB, 736x572, 1642759798472.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19944073 its like talking to a fucking wall

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 20:59:34 2022 No.19944087 >>19944073 God created nothing and even if he did, that wouldn't be part of it. "Reason" is just a description of words people say and think, it does not have 'teeth'.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 21:00:11 2022 No.19944090 >>19944087 ok. it doen'st have etterh?: wh the fuck would reaosn need to have teeth?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 21:00:18 2022 No.19944091 >>19944081 Have you just never read any metaphysics? What do you think "logos" means to someone like Aquinas

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 21:01:35 2022 No.19944097 >>19944090 "Teeth" is a figure of speech for a facet of something that is otherwise just an abstract concept that puts it into practical effect. A law is said to have "teeth" if it is written in a way that allows it to be enforced.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 21:02:10 2022 No.19944099 >>19940148 There's no evil in nature, society needs a concept of good and bad to function.

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 21:02:26 2022 No.19944102

>>19943842
The world is not perfect because the world is fallen, by a human's hand. That's the Christian view.
This is where you'd have to say one of a few things:
>God shouldn't have given us free will
>God shouldn't have created us such that we can suffer through free will / it shouldn't have consequences
>God is neglectful since he placed us in a situation where we could injure ourselves like this
There are a number of responses depending on the specific counterargument. For example we could discuss the metaphysical incompleteness of Man compared to God and how this predisposes us to sin, and how it is sin in itself. But, clearly a person in the depths of despair who believes his position is justified would never believe any argument against a premise like this. The argument is made by those in despair who expect better.
Consider that in Eastern Europe it's more common to believe in God than to believe in Heaven. The reasoning goes - humans are scum. How could Heaven exist for us? Why would you expect any better? God gives us better because he is merciful, even more than he is just, or we would surely tumble into hell.
The ultimate refutation of the problem of evil in my view is that it near-universally comes from elites and comfortable laymen or maybe such people dispossessed - while people who are in the midst of suffering don't see this contradiction.
Here is another refutation - humans are made with the ability to cope. You should cope. The fact that you can't accept this is the entire problem, really.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 21:02:36 2022 No.19944105 >>19944091 When you jerk off to gay porn, do you feel bad about it?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 21:03:34 2022 No.19944110 >>19943956 >Why make life harder than it has to be? How do you know how hard life has to be?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 21:04:49 2022 No.19944118 >>19944102 Nice job copypasting your 'argument to moderation' self-wank you keep in a word document. Most of that was completely irrelevant to what I said and it has turned me off from engaging with you on the part that was relevant.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 21:05:50 2022 No.19944124 >>19944110 How do you feel about the fact that you like gay porn?

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 21:06:41 2022 No.19944130

>>19943991
>>19944000
>>19944004
>>19944006
Reason is an uncreated divine quality belonging to God. This doesn't mean he can or must contradict it, any more than you are able to rip out your brain.
You would die, but God is existence above all
>Then he's not le omnipotent!
In the past it was common to consider omnipotence as "being able to do whatever is possible" and obviously leaving out the impossible. Impossibility and contradiction are the second-order manifestations of nonexistence and cannot apply to God. Sin is generally this kind of discord against one's nature in a self-destructive way

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 21:07:51 2022 No.19944140 >>19944130 nope

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 21:08:02 2022 No.19944142 >>19944091 don't (you) keep my (you) out of your mouth. I'm just an observer in this 'conversation' and I noticed talking to you is like talking to a fucking wall.

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 21:10:59 2022 No.19944160

>>19944118
I wrote that on the spot
You originally said "the world would be perfect" and I started off by pointing out the element of fallen Man. It is not on God, it's on us.
You could not accept that because you don't feel responsible for human flaws or subject to their costs - that was the rest of my post. I can't refute your intuition.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 21:11:26 2022 No.19944162 >>19944130 It is also possible to imagine reason as created and God as superior to it though. It just makes god more incomprehensible

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 21:11:52 2022 No.19944164

>>19944050
The material world is only one aspect. In order to give to one, you must take away from another. Everything has tradeoffs.
I'll say it again, the bank of souls, perhaps with a bit of a twist of the soul not being one but a multitude of "little souls" that come together to make a human soul. It explains a lot.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 21:12:40 2022 No.19944171 >>19944160 The last few lines of that were obnoxiously condescending

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 21:13:41 2022 No.19944176 >>19944164 > Everything has tradeoffs. in this world, but in a perfect world this would not be the case

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 21:14:12 2022 No.19944181

>>19944162
It's possible, except then you fall into the Protestant fantasy of being able to say anything and everything about God - thereby inviting every possible criticism - while straying from the Early Christian understanding which solidified through discourse with the Greek logicians.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 21:14:29 2022 No.19944184 >>19943880 Well, apparently that you lack understanding. Read the Bible, friend. Oh wait, you're "too smart" for that, aren't you?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 21:15:58 2022 No.19944192 >>19944171 They were, and that's a fair criticism.

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 21:16:05 2022 No.19944193

>>19944181
This. I'm honestly pissed at protestants for ruining religion for me. I'm a lifelong atheist and I'm just now realizing there is this whole other variety of religion (even christianity) that doesn't have almost anything to do with protestant cringe.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 21:16:34 2022 No.19944196 >>19944176 Again, who said we live in a perfect world? Is it impossible to think that once we "graduate" from this world our souls could go to a better world and get more refined?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 21:17:06 2022 No.19944198 >>19944184 Heavy fucking projection.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 21:17:10 2022 No.19944200 >>19944181 What is your view of God, the Thomistic version?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 21:18:27 2022 No.19944204 >>19944196 You keep baiting and switching with this. You're the one saying it's a world created by an all powerful and perfect entity, thus it is a perfect world.

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 21:32:00 2022 No.19944296

>>19944204
We're talking past each other.
Why would you think the world would just *poof* into perfection? Does anything else in the universe just magically *poof*? No. In order to improve, things have to change. So perfection is changing constantly yada yada that old bit.
Good things take time. Making beer takes time. Making a bike takes time. Everything takes time. Improving human souls takes time too I would assume.
Pleasure is not the same thing as goodness, nor is pain the same as evil. Death is not evil either how could it be? Goodness is following your nature and evil is not following your nature.

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 21:34:24 2022 No.19944315

>>19944296
> Does anything else in the universe just magically *poof*?
No, but that is only because God (in your understanding of him) does not exist. If he did, things absolutely would poof into existence in full perfection.
> Goodness is following your nature
you realize that contradicts the lines that almost every other christian uses, right?

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 21:38:23 2022 No.19944334

>>19944200
I am Serbian Orthodox, I am not sure exactly how else I would describe it in shorthand. If you are familiar with Catholic theology the view of God would be much closer to Augustinianism, but more mystical still.
God is uncreated and transcendental. Because because of our limitation, we have knowledge of Him through the way He interacts with us, and the world, and Himself in the Trinity.

Anonymous Thu Feb 17 21:44:33 2022 No.19944367

>>19944315
I never told you my understanding of god or gods. There is no requirement that a supreme being that created the universe know everything that will happen in that universe beforehand. Simulation programmers don't know everything that'll happen beforehand in their programs either, that's part of the joy of creation: the surprise.
I think it's ridiculous to think that if the supreme being in the universe doesn't match the omnipotent standard then it cant be god. Humans have 2 arms and 2 legs by "definition," but if one gets an arm cut off is it no longer human?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 22:02:44 2022 No.19944471 >>19944193 Protestants didn't ruin religion for you, you ruined it for yourself by not seeking the truth sooner.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 22:36:41 2022 No.19944672 >>19944367 I agree and I was arguing that point for like two hours earlier in this thread lol

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 22:37:42 2022 No.19944679 >>19944471 Cope and seethe

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 22:49:37 2022 No.19944728 >>19940148 Anyone that thinks the problem of evil is easily resolved doesn't understand it. It's unironically the final boss of theology.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 22:54:03 2022 No.19944755 >>19944728 Evil doesn't exist, same as your God doesn't exist, have fun solving something that cannot be solved.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 23:20:17 2022 No.19944871 >>19944728 Plantinga solved the logical problem of evil, literally no one knowledgeable defends that argument anymore

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 23:21:49 2022 No.19944878 >>19944672 Lol You're this >>19943922 anon?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 17 23:22:20 2022 No.19944880 >>19940148 Why refute something so vague? Yes, though, it's been ripped to shreds.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 00:55:47 2022 No.19945290 >>19940148 This shit btfo'd abrahamic theology so bad that they're still seething about it today. The best part is, he did it before Jesus was even born.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 01:08:59 2022 No.19945350 >>19945290 >The best part is, he did it before Jesus was even born. epicurus never said it

Anonymous Fri Feb 18 01:14:41 2022 No.19945376

>>19940148
>God gives humans free will
>Through the free will of imperfect beings evil is created.
When a programmer writes a script to generate random numbers is he then responsible for which numbers are to randomly appear, or, at that point, is it the program itself.

Anonymous Fri Feb 18 03:33:26 2022 No.19945865

>>19944367
Truly retarded analogy. How is a human comparable to God? Humans have physical limitations and thus can not be omnipotent. For example it is not possible for a human to turn all matter in the visible universe into photons. Your points add up to a pointless argument that theologians wouldn't take seriously. To claim god isn't Omnipotent would be to negate thousands of years of thought. Dumbass

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 03:35:26 2022 No.19945871 >>19945376 You keep comparing god to a being that has limited power. Like the other anon said, this reasoning leads to the realisation that all beings with power could be considered Gods, and then your logical argument falls apart.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 03:37:08 2022 No.19945876 >>19940148 It assumes moral realism is true, but it’s false. Problem of evil defeated.

Anonymous Fri Feb 18 03:52:55 2022 No.19945918

>>19945871
>the realisation that all beings with power could be considered gods
But yes they could of course. This is why the Bible repeatedly warns against worshipping false gods for humans are only created in His image and none other. Are you sure that your foundation is solid enough to argue these points?

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 03:54:31 2022 No.19945925 >>19945918 Imperfectly in His image*

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 03:57:39 2022 No.19945939 >>19940148 >God isn't a lukewarm, Epicurean moralist >therefore God is malevolent Child logic.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 03:58:52 2022 No.19945945 >>19945918 The Bible also advocates for an Omnipotent God, this is really irrelevant to the argument.

Anonymous Fri Feb 18 04:03:03 2022 No.19945961

>>19945918
Then in that case, you have truly reduced your own concept of God into a governable being that has limited powers and obeys preconceived laws. How can you justify believing this and still follow Abrahamic religion? These things are in direct contradiction with themselves. If you say you are an atheist, then you still haven't managed to refute the idea of a transcendental ineffable being that is beyond your scope of reasoning

Anonymous Fri Feb 18 04:57:32 2022 No.19946117
File: 221 KB, 512x422, E1WmbwVWQAQCYA9.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

I just made the mistake of going on /his/ and they have six of these new-atheism bait threads ongoing at a time
I always forget how shitty that board is. not strange at all considering it mainly attracts map-painter grand strategy monkey teenagers who outgrew their LARP straight into reddit nihilism. we're just a bit better than that.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 05:02:22 2022 No.19946127 The problem of evil is nothing but a false assumption based on humanity's narcissism. When rightfully understands the value of human life, especially when juxtaposed with the existence of an omnipotent being, one realizes that it is a fake problem.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 05:03:09 2022 No.19946130 File: 205 KB, 1200x1083, 1632474816326.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19940261 It doesn't refute Neoplatonism. Atheists BTFO once again, theists win.

Anonymous Fri Feb 18 05:07:08 2022 No.19946140

Ignoring generic religion shitfest can someone please explain to me what's going on when the pre-Christian Greeks talk about capital G God?

This comes up in Plato a lot seemingly interchangeably with "gods" (except in obvious cases like Euthyphro) and I don't know who this God is meant to be because it's not one of the pantheon gods and almost certainly not the Hebrew God.

Anonymous Fri Feb 18 05:11:14 2022 No.19946150

>>19940148
No, and any attempts at refuting it always devolve into bible thumper word games like
>>19940173

Where the mental gymnastics required to justify both god and evil eventually spiral into such abstraction that they become meaningless.

God exists and he doesn't want us to be or do evil, but technically nothing is evil because god decides what is evil, but you still shouldn't be evil because god is judging you, and even though evil both exists and doesn't exist because god is testing you, you have free will somehow even though god supposedly already knows everything which contradicts free will, etc.

Its honestly beyond me how anyone who is even slightly capable of logical intellectually honest thought could believe in the metaphysical when none of it stands up to even the slightest scrutiny.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 05:15:48 2022 No.19946167 >>19946150 >reality isn’t real dur

Anonymous Fri Feb 18 05:21:40 2022 No.19946178

>>19946140
There is the physical world that we can understand with observation and scientific testing...

But! What if there was also other stuff in the world that we couldn't observe or detect with science! Like some sort of higher world that projects what we think is the real world. Like some sort of shadows on a cave wall if you will. And even though we could never interact with or verify the existence of this "metaphysical world" what if we treated it as if it was real, spent our lives obsessing with it, and debated endlessly about how this theoretical metaphysical world is real and we should give 10% of out income to the people telling us it is real and also we should fight wars over this metaphysical world and us it as the basis for writing our laws.

Plato's "God" was literally him rat fucking his own brain with daydreams and discovering the idea that we might be living in the Matrix (pro tip: we aren't). His idea of "god" amounts to thinking that there is an absolute truth an absolute reality that goes no higher. God is the actual objects in the world instead of the shadows on the cave wall, if you will.

Anonymous Fri Feb 18 05:21:47 2022 No.19946179

>>19946140
It represents the highest form of substance, that all is formed from and is dictated to exist because of. Hell, even the greeks came to the reasoning that their was some sort of power hierarchy that must be conceivable due to any form of reasoning, and this concept of God is just the logical conclusion to that type of ontological assertion.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 05:22:52 2022 No.19946184 >>19946167 Yes that is the typical religionfag argument, I'm glad you were able to so concisely deduce that.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 05:22:58 2022 No.19946185 >>19946178 tips fedora You’re an NPC if you can’t tell there’s stuff going on behind the scenes.

Anonymous Fri Feb 18 05:25:56 2022 No.19946201

>>19946178
You neo-positivists were BTFO'd centuries ago, god only knows how you can continue to operate with glaring contradictions in your logic that is due to negating the metaphysical. How can you hold anything to be true if your own science is by default subjective and ever changing?

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 05:26:36 2022 No.19946203 >>19946150 Disbelief in metaphysics aesthetically refutes itself, because you can't breed and will kill yourself >durr no u tradlarper I'm Muslim and married

Anonymous Fri Feb 18 05:27:21 2022 No.19946205

>>19946185
Still getting your mileage out of le ebin fedora meme without contributing anything of substance.

>if you can’t tell there’s stuff going on behind the scenes.
Oh by all means do tell. I'm guessing you probably won't because all you cowards can ever do is fall back on humor because your own ideas are so flimsy that even middleschoolers can immediately point out the flaws in them.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 05:28:29 2022 No.19946211 >>19946201 >You neo-positivists were BTFO'd centuries ago No they weren't >>19946203 word games lol

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 05:28:45 2022 No.19946213 File: 13 KB, 200x249, 78c.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19946178 >if it's impossible to model scientifically... >it isn't LE REAL!!

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 05:29:46 2022 No.19946221 >>19946211 Positivism is currently actively refuted by the tranny po-mo hegemony you stupid fuck

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 05:29:58 2022 No.19946224 >>19946213 >Magic exists because I say so! >NO YOU CAN'T QUESTION ME MOM!

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 05:31:45 2022 No.19946232 >>19946221 >when you break the /pol/ troll so hard he tips his hand and starts crying about muh trannies and muh liberals Game. Set. Match. You've been outplayed knuckle dragger.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 05:31:51 2022 No.19946233 >>19946205 >your own ideas are so flimsy that even middleschoolers can immediately point out the flaws in them. >mentions the fedora meme Get over yourself mr. peaked-in-middleschool ex-redditor

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 05:34:05 2022 No.19946246 >>19946232 Positivism has literally been refuted by trannies and postmodernism. /pol/tard wignats are irrelevant and you might as well be one of them, since we will replace you

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 05:36:06 2022 No.19946254 >>19946246 >Positivism has literally been refuted by trannies and postmodernism. Quine was pomo tranny now?

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 05:39:20 2022 No.19946267 >>19946205 >actual NPC Do you think your monkey brain actually comprehends and understands the world as it really is?

Anonymous Fri Feb 18 06:52:16 2022 No.19946515

>>19945865
>>19945871
>>19945945
This is just the "the perfect being would be better if it existed, therefore it exists" stupid argument.
The requirement that a god must be omnipotent is itself putting a limitation on god. Odin, Thor, Ashera, Athena, Mars, Ba'al, none are omnipotent. Are they not gods then? There is no reason to think that a god needs to be omnipotent to be a god. A programmer has complete control over the program they create. Must they be omnipotent before they are considered a programmer?
A painter has complete control over their painting. Must they be omnipotent to be considered a painter?
The idea that this means everything could be considered a god is ridiculous as well. Do you truly think this means a potato has dominion over the affairs of man? That it can create planets? That it can create life? If so then you truly lack wisdom, seek it out.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 09:37:55 2022 No.19947138 File: 1.69 MB, 1389x2537, Epicurus.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19940148 Epicurus believed in the gods. Atheists are pathetic.

Anonymous Fri Feb 18 09:51:46 2022 No.19947185

>le problem of evil
God himself came to earth as a man, and suffered from thr hand of evil, never compromising his sinlessness, only to partake in suffering which all the people experience only more extreme and to fulfill what was written, beating evil forever by his perfect sacrifice.
So technically, God lets evil happen, but you cant say he is malevolent because he also suffered immenseley like ourselves from evil. Why didnt he just make evil not happen ever is to be revealed to His people when the time comes.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 10:05:32 2022 No.19947226 >>19940148 Epicurus has never been refuted. He is the beginning and the end of philosophy. The chaddest chad. Makes platonists and its retarded descendants seethe even to this day.

Anonymous Fri Feb 18 10:07:57 2022 No.19947234
File: 248 KB, 674x974, B5885F6F-2677-4B77-82F0-72E0AF10D413.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>19940148
But I can't understand a Yahweh, or a God, who could be all-powerful and all knowing and would allow the Nazi death camps and schizophrenia.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 10:46:49 2022 No.19947401 >>19944878 correct

Anonymous Fri Feb 18 10:51:35 2022 No.19947419

>>19945350
We don't know that for sure but he definitely laid a lot of these foundations. Epicurus was way ahead of his time and came up with a lot of rational and scientific ideas that were too bland for most people and didn't get any attention until 2000 years later when we independently discovered they were true.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 10:53:09 2022 No.19947425 >>19945871 It only falls apart for someone like you, who has low functioning autism and can't handle words not being entirely precise.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 10:54:27 2022 No.19947429 File: 56 KB, 394x474, 1637542525072.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19945961 >how can you justify caring about something that is only 99999999999999x more powerful than you

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 10:57:16 2022 No.19947441 >>19946515 Oh shit that's actually a good one. That retard is saying that is a God who is not omnipotent can't be God, but if God is in control of logic, reason, meaning, etc. then he could find a way to be God without being omnipotent.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 10:58:20 2022 No.19947447 >>19947138 And he also goes out and says mainstream religion is a bunch of hogwash in the next sentence

Anonymous Fri Feb 18 11:19:20 2022 No.19947526

>>19946515
It's going to be very hard to talk a literal autist out of the idea that logic exists beyond a conceptual level and it can poof things into existence, so lets break down the details more.

Has no one considered how retarded the statement is that a perfect being would be "more perfect" by existing? If you're perfect, can't get more perfect. You're already free of all imperfections and there are no more to remove, that's the definition. Furthermore, any being that doesn't exist is already perfect. If you don't exist you can't have imperfections.

Anonymous Fri Feb 18 11:40:40 2022 No.19947631

The concept seems to boil down basically to, “Cruelty exists, and God does not stop it, hence God is either not all-powerful or malevolent, or both.”
The concept of God is incompatible with modern society’s extreme code of morality in which any cruelty justifies the rejection of faith, to be replaced by nihilism in which nothing matters at all because cruelty is allowed to exist. There is no God, hence cruelty now simply becomes a tool to be employed for the purpose of one’s benefit, hence the rejector of faith ironically becomes cruel.
I’m not personally arrogant enough nor have I explored the thought enough to have any significant refutation, though I’ve heard others talk about the line mentioning “malevolence”
They proposed that this was a false dilemma and that there are in fact alternative reasons why God might by able but not willing to interfere with the cruelty that by nature exists, be that “free will” or whatever else. This, however, could then be refuted by the idea that, “God, if he is all-knowing, already knows whether or not you will exert your free will in a way that is cruel, so allowing cruelty to exist still reflects poorly on God as he is able to foresee all actions and could act if he chose. Not only that, God created you meaning that he implanted that cruelty in you from creation, so he himself has damned you after using you as a catalyst with which to inflict cruelty upon the world.” which again is nihilistic in that it removes all meaning from life as life itself becomes unnecessary if God exists.
So nihilism essentially asserts that whether or not God exists is irrelevant, life has no meaning either way.
It is my opinion that these nihilistic assertions are not only damaging to the individual and to society, but also ironically breed cruelty. After all, if there is no divine punishment for cruel actions, why not undertake those actions for my own benefit? There is no logical reason not to after all. Some would argue that they would not indulge in cruelty for their benefit because they are good people. However, if there is no God, adhering to a code of morals at the sacrifice of potential benefits is illogical. In a nihilistic society, morality itself becomes illogical.
I would argue that nihilism creates the cruelty that the rejection of God’s supposed cruelty was originally meant to combat. All successful modern religions preach some form of acceptance and moral code, whereas nihilism inherently asserts selfishness and cruelty for the purpose of one’s benefit, regardless of whether or not modern nihilists accept this.
I think that sacrifice is where the meaning lies. That sacrifice of the benefits one gains from the rejection of cruelty is what gives life meaning. That is why free will is important. We have been given the opportunity to experience suffering cruelty and sacrifice, and we should be grateful for it. That sacrifice is where the will of man and the will of God intertwine.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 11:49:46 2022 No.19947660 >>19947631 No, not really.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 11:53:16 2022 No.19947676 >>19947447 I know. Anyone with an ounce of brainpower would. My point is that atheists love to namedrop Epicurus when not only did he believe in God but believed in many.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 12:09:39 2022 No.19947752 >>19947676 Epicurus was basically an atheist by the standards of the time (Dante depicted him as being in Hell for not believing in the afterlife). In any case, the name on the paradox is just a marketing detail, doesn't change the implications of it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 12:11:34 2022 No.19947766 >>19947752 He wasn't an atheist though.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 12:24:01 2022 No.19947851 >>19947766 how profound

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 12:26:29 2022 No.19947867 >>19947851 you too

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 12:28:02 2022 No.19947878 >>19947867 Thank you for noticing

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 12:51:07 2022 No.19948017 >>19947234 Maybe God is a Nazi, considered that?

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 13:12:50 2022 No.19948108 >>19940173 Ngl, your God is a massive faggot.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 13:33:48 2022 No.19948203 >>19948108 dont mean much comin from a ol’ dick in a booty lookin ass nigga like u lmao

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 13:35:26 2022 No.19948209 >>19948203 got em

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 14:05:33 2022 No.19948369 File: 23 KB, 480x360, D9E5471F-B6E9-4A8D-B284-DDAF108CDAB1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19940148 Retroactively proved.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 14:17:26 2022 No.19948425 >>19940148 B-but he is literally older then christianity....

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 14:19:18 2022 No.19948437 >>19948425 Christianity and Judaism both are heavily influenced by Greek philosophy to the point where their model of the universe is more Greek than anything else.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 17:20:52 2022 No.19949478 >>19940148 ez explaination: hurting yourself is not evil

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 18:01:19 2022 No.19949724 >>19947660 Epic rebuttal

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 18:55:05 2022 No.19950022 >>19947631 Makes sense, i like the effort put into this. I have no reply, just want you to know i appreciate the post.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 19:39:56 2022 No.19950223 >>19940173 When would headcanon like this ever be useful or likely to be true?

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 19:40:49 2022 No.19950225 >>19950022 Thanks, I wasn’t sure if anyone would.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 19:41:37 2022 No.19950230 >>19941524 Things that hurt my fee fees

Anonymous Fri Feb 18 19:51:16 2022 No.19950273

>>19942537
The Christian God is omnipotent but a God doesn't have to be.
And that does not imply that there could be a stronger being. A stronger being could only exist in theory but in realuty who would create that being, if God is the most powerful being at this time?
There are Gods that are not omnipotent in several religions.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 19:56:23 2022 No.19950297 >>19942720 Even Aquinas talked about this. The Christian God is omnipotent in the sense that he can do all "things". Illogical statements don't describe things, "creating a rock that he can not lift" isn't a thing, it's just word salad.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 20:35:28 2022 No.19950486 >>19950022 shut up faggot

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 20:39:12 2022 No.19950501 >>19950297 This, and the "things" in the bible are largely tangible: parting the red sea, resurrecting the dead, etc.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 22:03:48 2022 No.19950862 >>19950486 Add something to the conversation of go back to /b/

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 22:28:53 2022 No.19950964 >>19950862 I'll do what I want

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 22:40:28 2022 No.19951023 Everything that happens is good. Evil doesn't exist.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 18 23:47:16 2022 No.19951241 >>19940173 This is so retarded I laughed

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 01:21:59 2022 No.19951557 >>19942160 If he isn't, why worship him?

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 07:38:59 2022 No.19952657 >>19942135 >>It makes no sense to claim that god created everything yet cannot control the very things he created makes perfect sense

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 07:42:20 2022 No.19952672 >>19951557 Makes him kill my enemies with lazers

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 07:42:57 2022 No.19952674 >>19940173 >Absence has substance You refuted yourself.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 07:44:40 2022 No.19952683 >>19940272 >>19942162 >invent evil, you are now evil >invent good, ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 09:20:43 2022 No.19953024 >>19952683 Good hasn't been invented yet so it's a pretty silly thing to go on about

Anonymous Sat Feb 19 09:25:19 2022 No.19953042

>>19940234
> intuitively incoherent and desperate
What is incoherent about it? Ancient pagans didn’t consider kids getting cancer to be some evil thing. They didn’t give a fuck about kids or women. They left unwanted babies in the woods to die of exposure or predation. Pagan kings would gladly murder their sons if it looked like they were ready to usurp the throne. If one of their kids got cancer they’d just say “oops looks like we got a defective one” and chuck him off a cliff. One less mouth to feed.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 09:31:58 2022 No.19953068 >>19953042 I'm not a pagan so I don't care.

Anonymous Sat Feb 19 09:34:16 2022 No.19953077

>>19951557
Worship is basically like a distilled form of attention. It’s necessary to even perceive reality in the first place. Your brain has to structure a hierarchy of attention and forms in order to process the endless chaotic stream of information penetrating your senses otherwise you would never be able to act in the world. Want proof? Just take a large dose of shrooms or LSD.
So the question becomes not whether to worship but what to worship. What you worship transforms you and transforms the world. Those who worship money get rich. Those who worship lust get laid a lot. In the end though all of these forms of idolatry end up leaving their worshippers hollow. It’s like a drug that gets less and less enjoyable over time but compels you to keep using just to stay at your old base line.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 09:37:09 2022 No.19953087 >>19953068 If you don’t worship God you worship some kind of idol. That’s just how it is. Maybe it’s money, sex, your own image, etc but it all leads to the same place. This is why there is evil in the world.

Anonymous Sat Feb 19 09:45:47 2022 No.19953105

>>19953042
>They didn’t give a fuck about kids or women
This is not true. They definitely had a more hardened attitude when there were practical matters to weigh but that doesn't mean they didn't care, everyone cares about their children.
>If one of their kids got cancer they’d just say “oops looks like we got a defective one” and chuck him off a cliff
Can you not even entertain the idea that this is the right thing to do in some sense? There was absolutely nothing that could be done about cancer back then, you're just letting the kid suffer in a miserable and pointless existence (the whole point of the life we have built for kids is reliant on them later becoming adults), and having to feed one more mouth is a very serious consideration in scarcity situations.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 09:46:31 2022 No.19953109 >>19953087 No, stop projecting. I don't feel the need to worship something. I get that you want to make everything fit the mold of your personal worldview but it just doesn't work.

Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:00:16 2022 No.19953171

>>19940148
The statement assumes that evil is purposeless and does not serve any higher good that justifies it's existence. You also have to assume that such a thing as "evil" is really real for a question like this to matter and if you are willing to grant that cosmic moral evil is real and needs to be accounted for then you have argued yourself into the position you are demanding other people defend.
If evil isn't real than calling God to task for it is irrational. If it is real you have to assume you have an infinite and exhaustive knowledge of it to call God to task for it and then you have to also have a reason why in your system evil exists and why your highest moral authority allows it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:05:36 2022 No.19953192 >>19953171 The last sentence really makes the whole thing fall apart. You have no talent for this.

Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:06:17 2022 No.19953197

>>19947429
>it's powerful therefore I should worship it
What if that god itself had something 9999999999999999999999x more powerful than itself which is so incomprehensible you're unable to conceive of it? Is that the true god? Does your god remain the true god?
Abrahamists really are fucking retarded. If God isn't absolutely omnipotent in every sense and yes that includes transcending logic and reason (fuck off thomists) then he isn't God.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:07:17 2022 No.19953201 >>19946117 >just a bit better Yeah just a little bit considering /lit/ is the christian larp board. Don't kid yourself, this place is barely any better than /his/, just more contrarian.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:09:48 2022 No.19953210 >>19953109 You’re just naive anon. You’re worshipping something even if you are blind to it. Your conception of “The Good” is not derived from facts and logic.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:10:02 2022 No.19953212 >>19948369 The real problem isn't the problem of evil, it's the problem of suffering.

Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:11:31 2022 No.19953217

>>19953210
Again: stop projecting. You're desperate to convince yourself that people absolutely default back to worshiping something else if they don't fall for the abrahamism meme; it's not true.
>Your conception of "The Good"
I don't have a conception of the good. Nondualists have always been right regarding good and evil, and >>19953212

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:13:28 2022 No.19953226 >>19953201 Why does Christ cause so much uncontrollable seething in this digital ghetto? Is it cause you’re all Jewish?

Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:13:35 2022 No.19953227

>>19940148
Why does God have to exist?
I'm not a physicalist but I don't see why there is an ontological necessity for God, sure there are arguments in favor of his existence but they can be dismissed as they inherently boil down to subjective opinions.

Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:15:04 2022 No.19953231

>>19953226
>why do people not like it when I spam my ridiculous bullshit in every single thread relentlessly every day?
I don't give a fuck about Christ. What makes me seethe is you zoomer retards who feel the need to larp in threads where you're not welcome, this board is garbage partly because of that.

Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:16:05 2022 No.19953236

>>19953217
>projecting
do you even know what that means? Lately too many anons just spam “ur projecting” when they have no arguments.
>I don't have a conception of the good.
This is simply a lie. And an embarrassing one at that. If given the choice is it better to rape and torture kittens or to not rape and torture kittens?

Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:16:16 2022 No.19953237

>>19953192
A statement without an explanation doesn't do anyone good. For all I know you're a fundamentally irrational person and your criticisms can be ignored.
My entire post up until the last sentence also is not contingent on the last sentence in anyway and so dismissing the whole thing based on how viable an argument you think it is, well, fundamentally irrational.

Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:17:16 2022 No.19953242

>>19953236
Obviously you're projecting your desperate need of an object to worship onto others.
>This is simply a lie
No, because you're confusing practical choices with metaphysical stances. I don't believe good and evil exist as concepts. But I suffer and others do as well, and avoiding that feels better to me than not avoiding it, so I do that. This isn't a gotcha unless you're thirteen years old.

Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:17:48 2022 No.19953245

>>19953231
>every single thread relentlessly every day?
Now you’re having delusions. Wake up anon. There are Bible/religion threads where people post about Christ and then there are thousands of other threads where it never gets brought up. Guess which one you are in?

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:18:39 2022 No.19953250 >>19953245 Every thread related to metaphysics or religion gets spammed by you retards. It's impossible to have a discussion because some zoomer inevitably comes in to ask people to repent or read the summa or whatever the fuck. Fuck off.

Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:20:01 2022 No.19953254

>>19940148
There would be no good without evil. It's that old argument I've heard many times. The concepts good and evil can be boiled down to our basic instincts of pain or pleasure, survival or death, procreation or incel. It wouldn't be good for us to consider getting our chest slashed as good, because we would not survive. I believe spirituality or believing in a god is accepting our reality as nature, all animals are already "spiritual". I'd like to say more but typing on a phone is bullshit i.e bad i.e not good

Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:20:13 2022 No.19953256

After reading this thread the only thing I'm still wondering about it how the fuck a board full of presumably somewhat intelligent people (drop the irony, this isn't reddit, most posters here aren't retards) can seriously buy into Abrahamism when the mental gymnastics required to make it work would make the average critical theorist blush.

Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:21:19 2022 No.19953260

>>19953242
>projecting
Do you have another argument? How did your instinctive impulse to everything you disagree with just become “Y-you’re projecting”? It doesn’t even make sense in this context.
>I don't believe good and evil exist as concepts. But I suffer and others do as well, and avoiding that feels better to me than not avoiding it, so I do that.
And you say I’m the one acting like a 13 year old kek. Now who’s projecting?
What a sad pedantic attempt at an argument.
>I just do what *feels* good, but I don’t actually believe in good
You have a case of woman brain.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:22:20 2022 No.19953263 >>19953250 >people post about Jesus in religion threads >this angers and confuses anon Is it autism?

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:22:26 2022 No.19953264 >>19953260 Just pathetic insults and strawmen then? Well I didn't expect much better from a Christian but still, you retards tick me off.

Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:24:10 2022 No.19953276

>>19953263
>post thread about buddhism or hinduism or any other religion that isn't about jews
>muh jesus
You're like that autistic kid on the playground who would throw a tantrum and demand the rest of the group play with them every time there was a game. Insufferable

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:24:53 2022 No.19953280 >>19953254 So we need to get slashed in the chest to appreciate good?

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:25:19 2022 No.19953281 >>19953260 >people have an agreed upon system of morality >this means the concept of the good has inherent existence Stop spending your waking hours on here and read a fucking book, I beg of you

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:25:30 2022 No.19953282 >>19953264 >strawman Glad to see you have at least two arguments even though you don’t even know what they mean. >calls me out for using insults >proceeds to call me a retard Anon, the irony… please tell me you see it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:26:05 2022 No.19953284 >>19953237 Don't care

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:26:42 2022 No.19953286 >>19953282 So what, you can throw insults but I can't? Choke on daddy Yahweh's barbed demon cock like the latent faggot you presumably are given your affinity for abrahamism, and stop embarrassing yourself, retard.

Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:28:15 2022 No.19953291

>>19953254
(Continued) when we believe in God we don't attribute the good things that happen to us to our ego nor to we attach the bad, we attach it to god. This has the affect of detaching our ego from our existence on the one hand, and trying to embrace the highest conception of good we have in our minds. I am speaking from my own believe, there are many lessons in the religions. We live in an unnatural configuration for an animal, spirituality gives you the ability to enjoy it. I see so many people in these threads dread the repitition of their days, yet routine and pattern in one of the most powerful tools you have for strengthening yourself. Each time you complete a pattern it gets stronger, just built better patterns.

Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:28:20 2022 No.19953293

>>19953197
They would be gods. You're the only one here dropping this "true" add-on to it. No one else is playing your dumb autistic games because we know that the dictionary definition of gods includes things like polytheist gods.

Also I am obviously not an Abrahamist.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:28:55 2022 No.19953297 >>19953293 Alright but why would I give a fuck about your gods? I only care about the highest principle, this powerlevel bullshit is meaningless to me.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:29:30 2022 No.19953302 >>19953280 No, not at all. I'm saying that it can be reduced down to our survival instincts.

Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:30:50 2022 No.19953305

>>19953297
So you don't give a fuck about what you're going to eat today? Whether or not you get hit by a car? Getting laid? You only care about the 'oneness' and nothing else?

Hard to believe you don't at least care about this thread given how much you've seethed over it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:32:00 2022 No.19953311 >>19953305 I arrived in this thread after the bump limit, not everyone who disagrees with you is the same person faggot. >You only care about the 'oneness' and nothing else? I care about some things. So what?

Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:32:51 2022 No.19953314

>>19953276
Anon look at OP. Is this thread about Buddhism or Hindu devilry? Speaking of “not about Jews” why are like 80% of the western promoters of eastern religion Jewish?
>Jack Kornfield
>Joseph Goldstein
>Tara Brach
>Thubten Chodron aka Cheryl Greene
>Ram Dass aka Richard Alpert

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:33:52 2022 No.19953320 >>19953281 Not an argument

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:34:19 2022 No.19953321 >>19953320 Actually it is but you're retarded so you don't see it

Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:35:20 2022 No.19953325

>>19953314
>devilry
kek. You people are like clones, incapable of a single original thought. Every single interaction I've had with a christlarper on this website has been the exact same in tone and content.
>like 80%
Nice source you got there, retard. You don't get to talk about jews when you worship a jew and his jewish demon father.
>western promoters
>western
>eastern religion
Found your problem. You may need to ponder it for a bit since you seem a bit slow

Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:37:43 2022 No.19953339

>>19953311
So you recognize that there are reasons to care about things other than the highest force in the universe. This is not a complicated point.

The reasons why you care about these things is they have variable factors and actually effect your practical situation. A God (or 'god' if that makes you feel better) who can cause worldwide floods, blow up cities, resurrect the dead, and grant you eternal bliss or torture is quite heavy on those traits. A logical law that makes it so god cannot make a stone so heavy even he can't pick it up does not include these traits, and worshipping it (or really even just spending your time thinking about it) is not useful.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:38:24 2022 No.19953343 >>19953339 >who can cause worldwide floods, blow up cities, resurrect the dead, and grant you eternal bliss or torture Source for these wild claims?

Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:43:19 2022 No.19953357
File: 699 KB, 1778x2048, 1620019891035.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>19953217
If there is no difference between good and evil, you have moral nihilism, but reality still remains. Even then you have to necessarily engage in evaluation because you are an agent in reality. God is the nondual entity. The Devil is the Deceiver who tempts you to consider that evil has ontological substance in God and exists outside of yourself. Do not worship the Devil and the problem of evil and suffering is solved.
His argument wasn't incoherent which is why you never managed to counter-argue.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:45:26 2022 No.19953365 >>19953357 Your cheap syncretic arguments are stupid. Engaging in evaluation is inevitable but it doesn't mean I have to consider my choices as inherently meaningful on a spectrum of good and evil (or absence of good if you want to be autistic).

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:48:43 2022 No.19953377 >>19953343 I'm describing the god of the bible, obviously. I'm beginning to feel that you are a complete retard.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:51:16 2022 No.19953389 >>19953377 I know you are, faggot. Why should I believe in him?

Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:53:59 2022 No.19953404

>>19953389
You shouldn't. This is a pathetic bait and switch, I completely demolished your retarded statements on the issue of a non-omnipotent god and now you're trying to dodge the humiliation of it by immediately switching to a baby-tier issue you know how to argue, unfortunately I already agree with you.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 10:55:15 2022 No.19953411 >>19953404 You demolished fuck all, faggot. You still haven't given me any kind of incentive to give a fuck about the "god" you're talking about.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 11:01:38 2022 No.19953449 >>19953411 If he was real it would mean the difference between eternal bliss or eternal torture. I know you're retarded but even you can't possibly not understand the relevance of this, I chalk it up to lying to avoid humiliation (didn't work, btw)

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 11:02:42 2022 No.19953456 >>19953449 Are you really giving me a poor reformulation of pascal's wager as an argument? Fuck off. The abrahamic god can be very safely dismissed for many reasons and he's the only god who does this eternal bliss/torture thing.

Anonymous Sat Feb 19 11:06:17 2022 No.19953473

>>19953456
We've been over this, retard. It's not real. The discussion is about if it would matter if it somehow was real, and you lost that discussion in a through and humiliating manner.

You are pathetic and the archive will showcase your retardation until the end of time.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 11:07:32 2022 No.19953480 >>19953473 >if it would matter if it somehow was real Backpedaling now? You are seething extremely hard.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 12:14:21 2022 No.19953796 >>19940173 If god predates evil and got created all things, then he created evil, and thus he is evil

Anonymous Sat Feb 19 13:01:31 2022 No.19953992
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>>19953365
Yes you do, because you always do something instead of literally, potentially, actually anything else. What you do in the moment is what you consider to be the highest good self-evidently. Will is always trying to move towards God.

My argument isn't syncretic, it's Eastern Orthodox Christian theology which you can read even from Wikipedia.

Anonymous Sat Feb 19 13:15:41 2022 No.19954051
File: 107 KB, 1024x1024, power of jesus.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>19953796
>>19953365
God created evil because there can't be good without evil. What that means practically is that action, decision, movement, etc. becomes impossible because something is no longer better than nothing or any other -thing. Evil doesn't exist as a thing, it only exists as an illusion, which is why the Devil is called the Deceiver. You want the best thing and if you don't choose it (Love of God) you've deceived yourself.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 13:34:26 2022 No.19954146 >>19954051 How did god create something that doesn't exist? If god is not capable of creating good without evil, then he is not omnipotent, if evil is independent of god's creation then it proceeds him and it exists without him.

Anonymous Sat Feb 19 14:36:36 2022 No.19954447
File: 1.04 MB, 2048x1536, 1641760169828.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>19954146
God did create good without evil because evil doesn't exist. Evil is not independent of God's creation in Eastern Orthodox Christianity. In Protestantism and Catholicism hell is the state of separation from God. This causes a bunch of theological problems and I think we can see them playing out in the culture right now to a great extent. In Orthodoxy the Love of God extends all the way to hell and is experienced as hellfire if rejected. The only unforgivable sin in Christianity is the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost which means to worship the Devil as he were God. The Devil eternally rejects the Love of God.
The Christian story is completely non-dual. Remember God is no-thing, you are not allowed to take His name in vain and therefore reduce him into a thing. In this sense God "doesn't exist". Do you understand how God becomes the source of evil for those who do not believe in Him now?
Christianity is easy to understand once you see the world as a fractal hierarchy with non-dual God at the top.
Etymology of the word hell: Old English hel, hell, of Germanic origin; related to Dutch hel and German Hölle, from an Indo-European root meaning ‘to cover or hide’.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 19 14:39:42 2022 No.19954460 >>19954447 thereby*

Anonymous Sat Feb 19 14:47:12 2022 No.19954499

>>19954146
Remember that Satan is in Paradise even though God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent and wants to provide the knowledge between good and evil. That's evil. Such knowledge doesn't exist. Partaking in his temptation causes/d the fall.

Satan told Eve, “God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil” (Genesis 3:5).

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/lit/ - Literature