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/lit/ - Literature

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19910041 No.19910041 [Reply] [Original]

>be told Hemingway sucks and is overacted for my whole university
>everyone on the internet says Hemingway sucks
>"less is less" "terrible female characters" "macho posturing"
> start reading Carver, Beattie, Richard Ford, and the other people edited by Lish
> realize they are all a bit like Hemingway stories I read in university
> go back and start reading Hemingway
> read In Our Time, major novels
> prose is totally free of lyrical look at me bullshit I see everywhere, no spending 1 page describing outfits, just straight to the story. Just writes what he wants to tell you about with room for interpretation instead of hand-holding.
> realize that Lish crowd are extensions of Hemingway into contemporary life
>realize B.E.E is Hemingway for yuppies.
> realize all of flash fiction is aping early Hemingway
> realize George Saunders is an extension of Hemingway's dislike of phoniness into humor and corporate culture
> Tons of early metafiction is a reaction against Hemingway
> Realize Hemingway is rarely posturing, often has weak male characters trying to overcome their weakness, a lot of the typical male interest is just a rural upbringing and the 'posturing' accusation is urban snobbery
> Hemingway grasps how women are both wonderful (Something Comes to an End, For Whom The Bell Tolls) and terrible ( Sun Also Rises, Short and Happy Life of Francis Macomber)
> a lot of the "terrible women characters..." is just Hemingway being honest about how awful people are and how temporary things are
>realize Hemingway is actually great

>> No.19910055

Finally someone said it

>> No.19910063

>>19910041
Hemingway is good not great and much of his influence is quite negative. Less genuinely is less, it speaks more accessibly and broadly to the human condition but less deeply. You’re right about his female characters though, he got it.

>> No.19910075

>>19910063
pussy take

>> No.19910116

>>19910041
correct op. hemmingway haters are almost ubiquitously non-readers (or else are only reader in the first place in pursuit of status)

>> No.19910134

>>19910041
Hemingway haters are all women and fags.
Prove me wrong.
Pro tip: you can't

>> No.19910153

>>19910041
Hemingway is one of the GOATs. He is the rare writer that is popular with normies, but critically great as well. One of the best prose stylists of English, or any language for that matter. Not a word misplaced

>> No.19910173

>>19910041
Since the birth of postmodernism universities have attempted to overcome the classical teachings in favor of a more diverse approach to the study of literature, this is, in a petersonian sense, the elevation of alternative sexual archetypes in the literary studies. It is a fine attempt, but it has now been repeteadly shown that the only outcome this has produce is the undermining of men and women's identity into a perfect nullity, for the lack of an underlying structure ('Man" and "Woman") upon which the ego shall develop.
To believe Hemingway male characters are bad, is to be what is (biologically) considered a beta-male. At difference of modern characters, Hemingway's character are flawed and thus they are capable of becoming, this means making progress. Beta-male philosophy does not allow for this, because the paramount belief is that people are not inherently flawed and have no duties to overcome their flaws, to be a more useful member of society. It is, in whole, a large scheme to avoid taking responsibility in real life, by changing the figures in literature and film, which have the potential of becoming archetypical for the culture that promotes them.

>> No.19910176

>>19910173
>petersonian

stopped reading there

>> No.19910186

>>19910173
There's no such thing as a "biological beta-male"

>> No.19910211

>>19910173
lol.

>> No.19910257

>>19910041
Old Man and the Sea is okay. The rest is nothing special. I couldn't finish For Whom the Bell Tolls also the Spanish lady is supposed to be a masculine feminist type character, Farewell to Arm has all but gay sex scenes with the papi guy and the ending was low testosterone nihilism, Sun Also Rises is literally about simps and cucks. He spends almost all of A Moveable Feast gossiping like a woman.
I prefer Raymond Chandler in every aspect.

>> No.19910273

He was a very good author but a thoroughly unpleasant person

>> No.19910283

>>19910273
Many such cases

>> No.19910290

Everyone involved and associated with the modernist movement and especially those Parisian expats is a terrible person and a fraud

>> No.19910320

>>19910273
Artists tend to be low in Agreableness trait.

>> No.19910326

>>19910283
>>19910320
Definitely true. It seems like every author I read about was a terrible person who was only humored because of their wealth and talent. It's always surprisingly common for world famous authors to sperg out about reviewers that don't like their works.

>> No.19910416

My instincts tell me that everything about him was a fake persona and he was really a pathetic little man

>> No.19910426

>>19910173
>Since the birth of postmodernism
Stopped reading right there.

>> No.19910438

>>19910041
With the exception of some early American literature which is basically European (Melville, James, Poe, etc.), America doesn't have literature and Americans can't into literature. I refuse to read it because it's American.

>> No.19910454

>>19910041
I have no opinion of Hemingway as Iv never read his works, but I hate how normalsfags hold him in high regards despite also never having read his work.
The worst is when someone finds out you are a writer and they start calling you Hemingway of all names.

>> No.19910456

>>19910416
This is obvious. Hemingway was not masculine. His books (at least Sun Also Rises) are honest about this. I don't know why people take the persona seriously

>> No.19910457

>>19910438
Marilynne Robinson

>> No.19910472

>>19910041
Yes, you're basically correct. Perhaps he was a bit of an odious character, perhaps a blusterer, perhaps he didn't always 100% back up his tough talk, but as an artist, he cannot be denied. And he wasn't a pussy, he went to war, drove an ambulance, got his shit blown up and got shot multiple times while carrying men to safety. That's pretty courageous.

Faulkner respected him. So did Joyce.

I'm tired of the imitators of Hemingway, but not of Hemingway himself. Love so much of what he wrote, In Our Time, the Nick Adams stories, A Farewell to Arms, Sun, For Whom the Bell Tolls, and Old Man and the Sea. I'd even say he might be the greatest American writer of short stories.

>> No.19910488

>>19910041
yeah dude everyone knows about hemingway because he sucks so much. that's how you become a writer that people continue to read decades after your death and have international renown, by sucking as hard as you can. surprised you don't know this by now.

>> No.19910494

>>19910472
>drove an ambulance, got his shit blown up and got shot multiple times while carrying men to safety.
zero reliable evidence of this

>> No.19910518

>opinion held by shitlibs is the opposite of reality
shocking

>> No.19910525

>>19910494
what do you consider reliable evidence? His friend Ted Brumback wrote a letter back to Hemingway's parents after,

>The concussion of the explosion knocked him unconscious and buried him in earth. There was an Italian between Ernest and the shell.He was instantly killed, while another, standing a few feet away, had both his legs blown off. A third Italian was badly wounded and this one Ernest, after he had regained consciousness, picked up on his back and carried to the first aid dugout.

He also apparently had 227 pieces of shrapnel extracted from his body after

from Hemingway: A New Life

>> No.19910533

Hemingway is great. His short stories especially. I was less taken by his novels.

>> No.19910542

>>19910041
Hemingway is fucking great, so many careers are built on saying he's shit.

Polarization is a sales technique

>> No.19910545

>>19910525
>227 pieces of shrapnel extracted from his body after
I've seen pictures of him shirtless wearing nothing but shorts and there are no shrapnel scars on his body, some of you gullible fools will believe anything just because it's in print lmao

>> No.19910802

>>19910041
>room for interpretation instead of hand-holding.
>>19910063
>it speaks more accessibly and broadly to the human condition but less deeply
This is a guy who needs his hand held

>> No.19910921

I wasn't allowed to study him at OSU because he was an old dead white guy... Fucking intersectional Nazis can bite my ass

>> No.19910949

>>19910176
being upset about the word petersonian is a meme

>> No.19910954

>>19910186
the type of male that gets outcompeted by more willful men. usually short and ugly.

>> No.19910970

>>19910320
this makes me feel precluded from actualization and doomed to an eternal sort of embarrassment of the soul.
>mfw too beta to honor god

>> No.19910999

>>19910041
>Realize Hemingway is rarely posturing, often has weak male characters trying to overcome their weakness
This is the proof that one actually reads Hemingway, to acknowledge this.

>> No.19911064
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19911064

>>19910041
my problem with hemingway is that paradoxically, that "straightforwardness" and the iceberg hidden beneath becomes a look at me bullshit and too in your face. i remember even the killers (which is the best ive read of him) being too repetitive and in your face about the fatalism of the protagonist. and something like the sun also rises is waaaay too repetitive, dull and artistically lame imo. im not denying his impact, but i would much prefer carver, hempel, palahniuk, salinger or lish from his pool of influence, usually for their creativity alone. the latter two especially since salinger always has something mystical, beautiful, bittersweet, funny to contrast the bleak with and lish is litteraly insane. theyre all more playful compared to hemingway you know and i guess i like that the most

>> No.19911065

>>19910273
who cares

>> No.19911095

>>19911064
>that "straightforwardness" and the iceberg hidden beneath becomes a look at me bullshit and too in your face

You complain about this but then recommend Carver. Wtf dude

>> No.19911129

>>19910041
Someone-or-other said that with the single exception of Nabokov, everyone after Hemingway was influenced by him. When someone is very influential he often gets underrated, because he changes the whole landscape, so he seems less innovative than he really was.

>> No.19911131

>everyone after Hemingway was influenced by him
>everyone after Hemingway was also terrible

>> No.19911136

>>19910173
This is an interesting critique but the other replies are right and its rough around the edges. I get you mean though. Makes me wonder if literature can be used to people how to form healthy relationships between men and women instead of relying on anime.

>> No.19911274

>>19910456
This. It's really quite obvious! I think most of these people, who have such strong opinions about Ernest, have not read very much. Whole thing about his persona and approach is already set in Sun Also Rises, dialectic about what he wants to be and what he is, his self-consciousness about this, and how much space is left to a reader to experience his struggle, is what makes him great writer. Yet, his expected 'readers' seem to be dumb idiots, always two steps behind him.

>> No.19911327

>>19910545
Post the pic faggot

>> No.19911409

Can someone explain why Hemingway is often considered detrimental to literature? Is it just because he wrote in a simplistic style? Many famous authors before him like Tolstoy wrote tight stories as well

>> No.19911420

>>19910456
Because he tried extremely hard to push it for his entire life. Every moment he wasn't writing was spent trying to do some manly action that would add to the myth he was sure he was making. It's most obvious when you read about his attempts to do something useful in WW2 and especially how mad he got when his wife (or mistress, it's hard to remember which ones he married and which he didn't) did far more interesting things than he did

>> No.19911453

>>19910173
That this passes as literary discussion is disgusting. Critical theory in the arts was a mistake. It really did get a lot of people with no artistic mindset talking about completely irrelevant shit and now it alianates people with one

>> No.19911457

>>19910041
>overacted
It really is

>> No.19911467

Out of curiosity I searched google for Hemingway’s macho image and was greeted by a mountain of articles of leftists calling Hemingway a transgender.

>> No.19911469

My mommy likes Hemingway

>> No.19911476

>>19911095
i didnt recommend carver outright, i just like his stories better. but he can be even more one note and the in your face subtlety is also a problem with him, especially after lish let him go. i prefer him to hemingway because theres at least a spark when hemigway is too dull sometimes

>> No.19913084

>>19910041
Let me explain to you why I hate Hemingway. It's very simple. In the beginning of For Whom the Bell Tolls, he describes how the convoy he was with would be attacked by monkeys and they would have to fight them off. And then he completely ignores that to talk about his man-pain.

The man's priority is to jerk himself off, not entertaining his readership.

>> No.19913618

>>19913084
What

>> No.19913802

>>19910257
Want to know how I know you're either a woman or a faggot?

>> No.19913814

>>19910041
I've never read Hemingway, what would be a good first book by him?

>> No.19913841

>>19910438
>which is basically European (Melville, James, Poe, etc.)
No, this is cope. America was more like the Commonwealth back then, but if you're saying another country could have produced a Whitman or a Thoreau you're a moron.

>> No.19914135

>>19910173
This is a pretty insightful post. Keep it up, anon, and ignore the haters.

>> No.19914151

>>19913802
Old Man and the Sea, I enjoyed a bit. That excepting any literature that appeals to superficial sentiments like that is not worthwhile. What exactly is masculine about A Moveable Feast.

>> No.19914429

>>19910041
>falling for "le hemingway bad" meme
extremely embarrassing, but i'm glad you grew out of that

>> No.19914875

>>19910173
>Since
stopped reading here

>> No.19915037

>>19913814
Start with some short stories

>> No.19916610

>>19910041
He, Mark Twain and Jack London are only good things to come out of America