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19890770 No.19890770 [Reply] [Original]

After reading books on Mahayana and Zen, like Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind and books about the two truths doctrine, I can't help but wonder what is the point of practicing a religion that admits that the nature of reality is fundamentally impossible to conceptualize.

>> No.19890823

Just means it's beyond words.

>> No.19890865

>>19890770
Practice is not mere babbling, a painful realization perhaps.

>> No.19890956

>>19890770
Why does it matter if it’s impossible to conceptualize? That doesn’t mean you can’t realize it.

>> No.19891013

>>19890770
Buddhism never says that. The entire point of the religion is to witness the true nature of reality directly (the links of dependent origination). I don't know what those books you've read say, but this one here is a good guide on meditation that dispels the notion that insight practice is seperate from jhana practice.

https://library.dhammasukha.org/uploads/1/2/8/6/12865490/breath-of-love.pdf

>> No.19891015

I believe the goal of Mahayana Buddhism is the salvation of all beings from suffering. The philosophy is just a bonus

>> No.19891873

There is no point to practice any religion.

>Judaism
>Nothing happens
Pass

>Christianity
>Eternal life in kingdom of heaven
What does it supposed to be like

>Islam
>Booze and booty forever
Give me a break

>Taoism
>It’s all the same, just flow
Lol, no

>Hinduism
>Realize the self and unite
Why, tho?

>Buddhism
>You must reach nirvana
Then what?

>Atheism
>Nothing ever happens
Fuck off.

Best is not to think much about it. Maybe read Nietzsche, I dunno.

>> No.19892085

>>19890770
What’s the point of believing in a religion that says don’t hold any views?
What’s the point of practicing if it says that there is no attainment?
What’s the point of striving for liberation if the goal of liberation is nonexistent (Samsara=Nirvana)?
Buddhism is a stoic-like cope

>> No.19892086
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19892086

BUDDHISM IS A NIHILISTIC, FATALISTIC, DEMONISTIC CULT; ANTITHETICAL TO CHRISTIANITY —ID EST: CATHOLICISM—, WHICH IS WHY IT HAS BEEN VIRULENTLY PROMOTED, FOR ALMOST A CENTURY, BY MISCELLANEOUS ATHEISTS, INCLUDING «PROTESTANTS».

EMBRACE BUDDHA, BE EMBRACED BY SATAN.

>> No.19892130

>>19892085
>Buddhism is a stoic-like cope
Mahayana (and Zen) in a nutshell:
>there's really no liberation, you're not going anywhere
>but don't think about it, empty your head and live in the moment, let's call that enlightenment instead!

>> No.19892145

>>19892085
>>19892130
>when you skip the first lesson on coompassion and go straight for metaphysics

>> No.19892162

>>19892145
>and then miss the metaphysics

>> No.19892167

>>19892145
Compassion without metaphysics boils down to UNESCO-style secular-humanism

>> No.19892173

>>19892162
The metaphysics is to edify intellectual curiousity and defend the doctrines against criticism. Buddhism is primarily soteriological, something easily lost if comparing Wikipedia write-ups rather than reading actual Buddhist texts.

>> No.19892189

>>19892167
Compassion does not mean perpetual charity, a la international aid agencies creating dependencies in societies which would starve if they went offline for five minutes. It means providing for someone in accordance with what they would benefit from. Not what satisfies your ego, not what creates good PR for you, not what offsets the pillage and plunder you feel bad for, etc. The world is not your therapy service animal.

>> No.19892191

>>19892173
Thanks for confirming that Buddhism amounts to atheistic secular humanism with bells and smells
Yup nothing to see here

>> No.19892201

>>19892189
You don't need religion for that.

>> No.19892213

>>19892201
>You don't need religion for that.
Of course Buddhism is a "just a philosophy" right? But what does that philosophy amount to? Secular humanism, but with mindfulness.

>> No.19892224

>>19892191
>>19892213
That you consider "atheist secular humanism" a slur to use against Buddhism outs you as someone very much filtered. Stick with your desert quadrilogy.

>> No.19892236

>>19892224
I accept your surrender.

>> No.19892250

>>19892201
That's true. But many people find it difficult to be ethical without a codified or traditional framework. The Buddhist notion of non-self is highly amenable to compassion as an ethical principle in addition to expressing the doctrine of momentariness.

>> No.19892276

>>19892236
You are merely name-calling, and expecting to be cheered on by sympathetic onlookers. But none of your arguments for Yahweh-Iśvara hold water in any case, because ultimate reality is non-dual and beyond discursive thought. This is why Mahayana Buddhism holds it to be devoid of characteristics. It cannot be theological, anthropomorphic, substantial, etc. To do so would be to negate something else. Thus, the only affirmation is the totality, it is emptiness. In essence this is the argument of Nagarjuna, Asanga, of Buddha himself.

>> No.19892282

>>19891873
>Gnosticism
>GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE NOW
There's a sense of urgency I like, makes me feel like I'm in Chicken Run

>> No.19892285

>>19892086
retard

>> No.19892303

>>19890770
I think it's better to read and study more foundational sutras like Platform and Diamond, and then read the actual techniques utilized in school of choice (e.g., Shikantaza for Soto).

>> No.19892313

>>19892086
>t. childless spic pederast
lol the absolute state of cathlarpers

>> No.19892331

>>19892086
i was a bit hesitant about christianity, but now seeing this written in all caps has convinced this one-time sinner

>> No.19892453

>>19890770
>watch video where young monk describes budhist view on soul
>he seems unsure
kek
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNieqU8-IbI&ab_channel=Basicman18

>> No.19892592

>>19892086
absolutely rich coming from a pedophile

>> No.19892609

>>19892303
Did i get filtered by the diamond sutra, or was the translation just shit? I read the one on the Plum Village website.

>> No.19892616
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19892616

>>19890770

>> No.19892621
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19892621

>> No.19892697
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19892697

>> No.19892715

>>19892303
Neither of those are "foundational texts", they were written well over a thousand years after the death of the Buddha.

>> No.19892734
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19892734

do any of you actually interact with clergy or other followers?

>> No.19892786

>>19892715
They are foundational texts for Zen/Ch'an.

>> No.19892795

>>19892609
I recommend Red Pine's translation because he adds a lot of accompanying commentary from various Ch'an patriarchs and Zen teachers.

>> No.19892807

>>19892786
I'm saying he should read the source material (Pali Canon) instead of relying on books about material written long after the time of the Buddha.

>> No.19892809
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19892809

>>19892786
Read the Lankavatara

>> No.19892828

>>19892807
>hurf durf sola scriptura
That's not how it works.
>b-b-but the theravada
Read commentaries on commentaries on commentaries on the Pali Canon. "Sola Scriptura in Buddhism" makes no sense because the religion isn't predicated on adherence to arbitrary textual propositions but rather on a practical soteriological method that can be interacted with through immanent empiricism.

Theravada means "Way of the Elders", not "Texts of the Elders".

>> No.19892856

>>19892807
What do you mean by the Pali Canon? If you mean the nikayas, these are read in Sanskrit as the agamas in Mahayana. Many Mahayana sutras are effectively condensed commentaries on this material and its concepts. There is nothing wrong with reading them, but the later dating of the Mahayana literature is no reason to discard it

>> No.19892871
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19892871

reading picrel many have idealised deaths but still quite interesting

>> No.19892878

>>19892828
>4.8] “Suppose a monk were to say: ‘Friends, I heard and received this from the
Lord’s own lips: this is the Dhamma, this is the Discipline, this is the Master’s
teaching’, then, Monks, you should neither approve nor disapprove his words.
Then, without approving or disapproving his words and expressions, this should
be carefully noted and compared with the Suttas and reviewed in the light of the
Discipline.
“If they, on such comparison and review, are found not to conform to the Suttas
and the Discipline, the conclusion must be: ‘Assuredly this is not the word of the
Buddha, it has been wrongly understood by this monk’, and the matter is to be
rejected. But if they, on such comparison and review, are found to conform to the
Suttas and the Discipline, the conclusion must be: ‘Assuredly this is the word of
the Buddha, it has been rightly understood by this monk.’ This is the first crite-
rion.

>> No.19892937

>>19892878
Maha sisters...

>> No.19893025

>>19890770
>what is the point of practicing a religion that admits that the nature of reality is fundamentally impossible to conceptualize.
>practice
you said it yourself, the key word is practice, the point is that praxis take primacy over theory

>> No.19893036

>>19892224
this

>> No.19893154

>>19890770
Why the fuck would you want to know the nature of reality if in the first place you are not able to control your mind in order to live skillfully?

Buddhism is kino cause it tells how through a pragmatism approach you can reach happiness. Mental states are constructs. You, as the observer of experiences, have the power to induce views that may not have fundamental ontological reality but that are helpful in order to live wisefully. Wisdom is not about reaching eternal truths but to know how to live sanely and to be intelligent.

>> No.19893186
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19893186

>>19893154
in your personal experience would you say this is akin to the passivity of childhood where thoughts and feelings come and go or is it a state of thinking one builds up to?

>> No.19893209

>>19890770
pretty much all religions admits that the nature of reality is impossible to conceptualize, that's what separate religion from science

>> No.19893236

>>19893154
> Mental states are constructs
>You have the power to induce views that may not have fundamental ontological reality but that are helpful
Sorry. You still will never be a real woman.

>> No.19893244

>>19893236
we're doing this huh

>> No.19893289

>>19893236
>>19893244
troonchads living rent-free in every election tourist's head; how do they keep winning?

>> No.19893311

>>19893289
i've been here over a decade

>> No.19893323
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19893323

>>19891873
>Best not to think much about it
>browsing the board that perhaps thinks most about it

>> No.19893331

>>19891873
what? top kek you're so stupid

>> No.19893351

>>19891873
>>Buddhism
>>You must reach nirvana
Buddhism doesn't urge anyone to pursue it, Buddhism merely offers the path.

>> No.19893354

>>19891873
Actual teen level cringe

>> No.19893362

>>19893186
Both. It is a state of thought that leads to a skillful passivity, but which is very different from what characterized us in our childhood. The passivity of the child is a temporary state born out of the momentary inability to make use of metacognition to reflect on experiences. Generally from the age of 8 we start to dissociate ourselves from the phenomena in-itself and separate what is observed from the observer. This natural process, although necessary and unavoidable, can create thoughts that trigger wrong view, such as believing that what comes and goes is permanent when legitimized by repetition. What's tricky is that you can actually use this mechanism of legitimization to your advantage, but ultimately over time it will cause suffering because you will get attach to it since you identify with your course of action. We identify ourselves with what appears to be what we are but that is not ours. Like it or not, dissociation will always be with us unless nirvana is achieved. Meanwhile, buddhist practice tries to achieve the passivity you referred to through detachment, the knowledge of what is illusory and what is true, and the cultivation of a moral life in accordance with dharma.

>>19893236
kek. Don't identify my words with queer theory, that's wrong view that comes out of ignorance.

>> No.19893441

>>19893362
in my mind i was thinking all we build up over the years not being calm or in the moment but being tense and in our heads i remember as a child both good and bad would flow through me where as adult seem to get caught up in recurring thoughts and ideas what NEEDS to be done for sustaining oneself is small but their head is filled with a bunch of nonsense and they could look at life in any way at all as a child i felt much more as a viewer to life i suppose more in the moment not in my ideas

>> No.19893470

>>19892621
What's wrong with in the Buddha's Words? Seemed pretty good and you could take or leave the commentary.

>> No.19893484
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19893484

>>19893470
oh sorry that is my progress ha i found it quite informative i even took notes reflections upon death weigh quite heavy upon my mind
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrqxAzbfXLE&ab_channel=SaLvageF

>> No.19893494

>>19893236
>that may not have fundamental ontological reality but that are helpful
this is a contradiction, if it's helpful then is conected to reality, that's the whole point of the upayas

>> No.19893553

>>19893470
it's in my bedroom actually(:

>> No.19893653

>>19891873
>>Buddhism
>>You must reach nirvana
>Then what?
then you live a life free of craving and neurosis

>> No.19893666

>>19891873
>What does it supposed to be like
Pardon?

>> No.19893673

>>19892086
CUM GENIUS BACK AGAIN WITH ANOTHER GENIUS TAKE ON EVERY OTHER RELIGION THAN THE SUPREME NOBLE LATIN AMERICAN RITE OF CATHOLICISM.
I KNEEL.
I KNEEL.
I KNEEL.

>> No.19893680

>>19891873
is there even any point to Judaism beyond "my tribe is heckin superior"?

>> No.19893829

>>19893680
is there any point to any religion, other than "my tribe is heckin superior"? none of it gets backed up by science, literally every religion is faith based no matter how far you go

doesn't matter if you're studying kabbalah or practicing vajrayana lol, or christian cabala for that matter. or jung's stupid shit, none of this stuff is backed up by material science

>> No.19893835

>>19892086
please stop yelling

>> No.19894311

>>19892828
>immanent empiricism.
What does that mean?

>> No.19894344

>>19892609
Sutras are mostly giant slogs of total boredom. Try Blue Cliff Record instead, now those fuckers got some energy.

>> No.19894414

>>19890770
Because practice is better than theory.

>> No.19894429

>>19893829
So high school. The point of spirituality is to teach people to cope. Science just makes more problems to cope with.

>> No.19895229
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19895229

>>19892086
YOU ARE AN RETARDO