/clg/ — Classical Languages General

[Anonymous No.19872790]

The Consummation of Empire edition

previous edition: >>19861350

>what classical language are you learning?
>share classical language learning experiences!
>ask questions about classical languages!
>help people who want to learn a classical language!
>revive Sahidic Coptic!
>decipher rongorongo!

[Anonymous No.19872888]

>>19872790
>revive Sahidic Coptic!
I prefer Sahidic, but the only way you are getting Coptic revived is if it's sold as a way of preserving the culture of Egyptian Christians. So it would be Bohairic. I've already seen talk that if Duolingo ever did a course, it would be Bohairic.

[Anonymous No.19872906]

Revive gibberish, return to monke

[Anonymous No.19873023]

Focusing on Greek atm. The last thread sparked my interest in Coptic so I picked up a short introduction book on the language. At the end it has a short reader which includes the Gospels of John and Thomas.

[Anonymous No.19873065]

>>19873023
Coptic Starter Pack
>http://lexicity.com/language/coptic/
>https://gnosis.study/
>https://copticscriptorium.org/
https://coptic-dictionary.org/search.cgi
>https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjLuQOYWne-pi9MmIf2T8JA
>https://www.coptic-magic.phil.uni-wuerzburg.de/
>https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/collection/nha

Good luck!

[Anonymous No.19873111]

>>19873065
Thanks!

[Anonymous No.19873349]

Does anyone know if Coptic is harder than Classical Ethiopic(Ge'ez)?

[Anonymous No.19873740]

the last thread had more replies than any other post, this general rocks

[Anonymous No.19873984]

Reposting question becuase it was right at the end of last thread

Is the latin language option in Minecraft any good? Thinking of using it as immersion practice.
But there's several other language options in there like Pirate language so I'm worried that the latin option is just more of a joke and not done well at all

[Anonymous No.19874024]

>>19873740
Tbh it's because abou 2/3 into the thread it turned into an argument over the usual bs

[Anonymous No.19874036]

>>19873984
I'm sorry I don't have Minecraft. I know some Latin YouTubers make videos in Latin. If nobody here is answering your question, maybe ask in the comments under one of their videos. They are both Latin teachers, so they would know if it's shit or not.

>Magister Craft
https://www.youtube.com/c/DivusMagisterCraft
>Found in Antiquity (Carla Hurt)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXi1m1_th92pN-AplGGqpHWHrg-ujykFk

[Anonymous No.19874103]

>>19873984
lol why do they even make that an option

[Anonymous No.19874421]

what did you do today frens? reply in the language you're learning. I'll start:
(correct me on any mistakes)
>Anteā scrībō hoc, ambulavi per sēmita. Sēmita prope lacus qui circum arboribus et naturis. Tunc abii ā sēmitā ad viam. Dum ambulavi ad domum, vidi canem coloris candidi, ut nix nova! Quippe, ego salutavi canem, qui ante portā erat. Cane lambuisse mē manum fuit. Posteā redii domum.

[Anonymous No.19874436]

>>19874421
Multum masturbor.

[Anonymous No.19874475]

>>19874421
>ad domum

[Anonymous No.19874500]

>>19874475
i know i fucked up there as soon as i wrote it, but please pardon me for my crimes

[Anonymous No.19874552]

>>19874475
>>19874500
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lczHvB3Y9s

[Anonymous No.19874563]

>>19874421
Mane cum cane meo ambulavi. Nunc in lecto sedeo et lego.

[Anonymous No.19874618]

>>19874421
Ἐμεταφράζον Σοφοκλής καὶ Ὅμηρος

[Anonymous No.19874638]

>>19874421
I started doing declension and conjugation drills to get back into the Latin-learning mindset. https://doctor-mobius.neocities.org/latin/index.html Someone shared this in the last thread and it's really helping. Thanks. :-)

[Anonymous No.19874731]

some anon here said they were making an anki deck for lingua latina pars II
ever publish that?

[Anonymous No.19874764]

>>19874731
lol

[Anonymous No.19874972]

Wikipedia claims there are no native speakers of Latin. How true is that? There are so many autistics/people in general learning this language that I wouldn’t be surprised at all if one of them raised a child only speaking Latin with it.

[Anonymous No.19874992]

>>19874618
>Ἐμεταφράζον
ἆρα μετέφραζες τὰ γράμματα τοῦ Σοφοκλοῦς τε καὶ τοῦ Ὁμήρου;

[Anonymous No.19875004]

>>19874552
Very funny. That scene is why you're learning Latin in 4chan instead of in Highschool.

[Anonymous No.19875015]

>>19874731
homie just make your own decks, it's not exactly rocket science, and it's good practice anyway
>>19874972
Wouldn't the Vatican have at least one or two of them?

[Anonymous No.19875040]

>>19874552
>>19875004
>Media depiction: Cruel and domineering
>Actual reality: Serious and empowering

[Anonymous No.19875133]

Is my pronunciation close here?
https://vocaroo.com/1dSReoMSZE0Z

[Anonymous No.19875153]

>>19875133
try to emphasize the vowels a bit more

"i" is more like ee
"e" is more like eh

dont over do it though. everything else sounds decent or satisfactory at least.

[Anonymous No.19875169]

>>19875153
thanks

[Anonymous No.19875233]

how many of the paradigms do you guys have memorized with ease? i started latin in december and obsessively studied the tables and learned vocabulary for like two weeks and for some reason then mostly dropped it until a couple weeks ago and into my brain ive hammered all declensions(maybe could use some more practice on the 4th), all adjective forms, and the active and passive present, perfect, imperfect, and future tenses.

[Anonymous No.19875285]

>>19874972
>>19875015
>Wouldn't the Vatican have at least one or two of them?
The castrati in the catacombs are probably native speakers.

Would a kind anon post resources for learning Cimmerian?

[Anonymous No.19875421]

>>19872790
I get discouraged sometimes with my Latin learning because I'm not progressing very fast, but then I come into these threads and find I'm able to understand more of what I read each time. Thanks, lads.

[Anonymous No.19875464]

>>19875421
Nos omnes id faciemus, frater.

[Anonymous No.19875468]

>>19875421
Don't give up bro. Stay consistent above all things. The only wasted study day is a day that you didn't study at all.

Tecum sumus.

[Anonymous No.19875508]

What are some good grammar books to supplement with LLPSI? I've been watching the latintutorial channel on jewtube, which has helped a lot, but I'd like a book as well.

[Anonymous No.19875537]

>>19875508
Wheelock's Latin. If that is too slow for you, then Latin an Intensive Course.

Don't ask anyone on Reddit, Discord, or LLPSI forums because you will get shit advice from lunatics.

[Anonymous No.19875549]

>>19875537
Gratias tibi ago

[Anonymous No.19875562]

>>19875537
>Latin an Intensive Course.
This is exactly what I had in mind. Thanks for the rec

[Anonymous No.19875570]

>>19875508
hackett has companions to FR and RA that have english explanations of the grammar

[Anonymous No.19875669]

>>19875537
What's the shit advice?

[Anonymous No.19875687]

>>19875669
"If you need a grammar, then you aren't using LLPSI correctly. You got filtered"

That kind of shit advice.

[Anonymous No.19875746]

>>19870826
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there's somehow something objectively better about our values, just that I would personally not prefer to live then.
And when did they say ā sounds identical to ŏ? Wait, do you say "caught" and "cot" the same? The guide was probably written by someone who doesn't.
>>19870855
Well ĭ probably relaxed to /J/ at some point as an intermediary to becoming /ɛ/, which is what it ended up as in Romance, the question is just when.
>>19871195
Isn't "be born" basically a deponent verb in modern English? Etymologically it's the passive of "bear" but "bear" in the sense of "give birth to" is now somewhat archaic.

[Anonymous No.19875787]

>>19875004
What comedian is this referring to?

[Anonymous No.19875790]

>>19875746
Ugh, why does 4chan turn the IPA for the near-close near-front unrounded vowel into J?

[Anonymous No.19875820]

>>19874972
There's definitely atleast a few but I think that's too extreme of the definiton of "dead language vs living language"

I think there needs to be atleast a community or town of latin speakers who speak predominantly latin for it to be considered alive... and even then, it's barely a novelty.

The issue is that there's not really any reason to revive latin beyond the fun of it. We already have translated works of all the major writers, and reading them in their original language is only interesting to academics. Until latin becomes relevant to everyday people, I don't see it happening

[Anonymous No.19875845]

>>19875787
John Cleese, I'm guessing.

[Anonymous No.19875881]

>>19874972
>>19875820
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efuyLs98uIc
This dude's raised his kid as an actual bilingual Latin speaker. The absolute madlad, she's like fucking 4 and has a bigger vocabulary than me.

[Anonymous No.19875898]

>>19875881
>>19874972
>>19875820
The European noble caste was composed of people whose first language was Latin. The Austro-Hungarian Empire intentionally cultivated this, so native-language Latin speakers are really only a century removed.

[Anonymous No.19875914]

>>19875898
It's not impossible. It's not all that different in terms of inflection from something like Russian.

Also there is a distinction between dead and extinct languages. Extinct languages are things like Sumerian which are not used in any capacity anywhere.

[Anonymous No.19875942]

>>19875508
>Agrippa

I know a lot of books have been lost over the centuries, but the loss of Agrippa's is what really gets to me.

[Anonymous No.19875960]

>>19875881
That's incredible, but what's the limit? Why not teach a child Ancient Greek? You'd be giving birth to an incarnation of a famous scholar.

[Anonymous No.19875966]

>>19875845
How do you get 'Margie' from that?

[Anonymous No.19875981]

>>19875914
How accurate is Sumerian phonetics or pronunciation? Theoretically, could a Sumerian scholar travel back in time and manage some degree of communication?

[Anonymous No.19875991]

>>19875960
No idea. I'm sure this kid could speak 4 or 5 languages by the time she's in highschool. I don't see why not.

[Anonymous No.19876003]

>>19875981
I highly doubt it. I'm guessing we reconstruct the sounds based on languages with bilingual texts like Akkadian since the Semitic languages are still around and better understood. Also I would assume the phonological rules for Cuneiform would be at least similar across languages. But I have no experience in this field, so please don't quote me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUcTsFe1PVs

[Anonymous No.19876028]

>>19875966
A fake scenario is being depicted where a stuffy conservative laughs at the comedy and remarks to someone he's with named Margie (his wife, perhaps) that Monty Python's humor is irreverent but funny. That's how I read it anyways.

[Anonymous No.19876035]

>>19876028
Oh I see. But has John Cleese been embroiled in some sort of controversy? I hadn't been aware.

[Anonymous No.19876065]

I learned how to read Devanagari and want to memorize some essential texts Written in Sanskrit. But I know little about their literature. I am already working on memorizing Homer's Iliad, Odyssey (only the beginning). What would be the equivalent of Homer in Sanskrit? Appears that they have so many classic long epics and poems I don't know which one to try first

[Anonymous No.19876070]

>>19876035
I'm not sure. I think a while back he might have made some comment about how places like London no longer have as many British people and everyone got mad for him pointing out it's weird that a country's major city isn't predominantly peopled by people from that country.

[Anonymous No.19876091]

>>19876065
>What would be the equivalent of Homer in Sanskrit?
Bhagavad Gita

[Anonymous No.19876212]

>>19876091
The Mahabharata in general, but it's ten times as long as Homer. The Gita is a good text for understanding Vedanta philosophy, and Hindu philosophy more generally. I'd also recommend the Rig-Veda, as it's the oldest Sanskrit we have, and some of the rituals found in those texts have come down to us relatively unchanged from the Iron Age.

[Anonymous No.19876248]

>>19875991
>>19875960
This sort of thing's been done before. She'll abandon Latin as soon as she realizes her dad understands English. (But he could probably keep it going by hiring a tutor who speaks only in Latin.)

[Anonymous No.19876253]

>>19876248
I dunno, I've met native Esperanto speakers who still speak Esperanto even after realizing one of their parents speaks the local language. But maybe being involved in the Esperanto community helps with that.

[Anonymous No.19876264]

>>19876091
>>19876212
Thanks.
One thing I noticed is that, when they are recited, it seems the reciters all sing the lines according to a rhythm, instead of reading the text naturally according to the accent of words.
I never paid attention to the musicality at all with Latin and Greek poems (I tried my hardest to do the pitch accent, but an entire sentence would sound unnatural).
Is there a standard for how to sing the lines of Sanskrit poems? Like using a certain tonal format for a certain meter?

[Anonymous No.19876289]

>>19876248
>as she realizes her dad understands English.
Lmao you think he doesn't use English with her??

[Anonymous No.19876300]

>>19874972
It was big in the Renaissance if you were rich. For example, Montaigne writes about how his father hired a Latin teacher from Germany to talk to Montaigne as an infant/toddler in Latin. This teacher also taught people in M's family, even the maids and servants, enough Latin so that little Montaigne would only get Latin and zero French.
As a result of this, Montaigne reports how he was able to flex on his teachers when he finally went to school and put them to shame kek.

[Anonymous No.19876337]

>>19872790
> decipher rongorongo!
This caught my interest recently. I'm thinking it is a pre-writing mnemonic system, which might be even cooler than it being the earliest writing system.

[Anonymous No.19876440]

>>19876264
https://youtu.be/E53GuZ8NFQw?t=34
This meter is what's most commonly used. I've forgotten the name of it, but you'll be able to apply it to the majority of poems once you know it.

https://youtu.be/E53GuZ8NFQw?t=871
From the same video; this meter is also an important one to mention. If you start at the verse prior and hear it transition into the longer meter it'll make more sense. This meter is mostly used when elaborating on a point or to stress the importance of the content being presented. Prior to the verse with the longer meter, Krishna was setting up his argument for the eternal and immortal nature of the soul. Once he's finished, he launches into the crux of his argument, which is where the longer meter begins. This switch to the longer meter also happens in the first chapter, when Arjuna starts to justify, in great detail, his reasons for not wanting to participate in the war.

If you actually want to understand the Bhagavad-gita, and not just be able to recite it from memory, you would do well to sit down and study it, preferably from someone whos already taught it before. Especially those Swami's who've been studying it for 10+ years and can understand it fully in Sanskrit.
My recommendation would be this channel:
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLeP4eulMEXiOC8DjxjFc2Vt1yEtD8IAbl

[Anonymous No.19876555]

>>19876264
The Gita was written in shlokas, the meter of choice for classical Indian poetry. Greek and Latin poetry was also written in meter, and was also sung or recited in a musical fashion, often with the accompaniment of flutes, drums, and lyre. In fact, one of the Ptolemies--Cleopatra's brother, if memory serves--was called mockingly by the sobriquet "Auletes", or flute-player, because he was so simple-minded that he preferred to sit idly and play his flute (aulos).

Poetry and music have gone hand in hand since the beginning of classical civilization. If you wrote poetry, you wrote music. Plato talks at length about how man's "musical" faculty--the faculty which employs the arts of the Muses--should be exercised is as great a measure as the physical faculties.

[Anonymous No.19876873]

>>19876440
>>19876555
Thank you very much. I will look into it further. I think using a fixed chanting rhythm for a defined meter will also make the memorization easier.

[Anonymous No.19877020]

>>19874992
don't worry about it. i quit greek.

[Anonymous No.19877105]

>video meliora, proboque, deteriora sequor
Story of my life bros

[Anonymous No.19877233]

>>19876440
I've been listening to the video for nearly an hour. It's really a great listen. I can't link it right now, tech problem, but I recommend Book 6 of the Iliad uploaded by Zabaan School for Languages, performed by Silvio Zinstaag. It's incredible stuff.

[Anonymous No.19877438]

>>19876289
Only if you don't say you know for a fact he does.

[Anonymous No.19877912]

>>19875881
>that burger accent already

[Anonymous No.19877943]

>>19875898
Can't happen now. What use does a secular person have for Latin besides classical studies? And he'll be learning the reconstructed pronunciation so he'll sound like a histrionic retard whenever he opens his mouth.

[Anonymous No.19878033]

>>19877943
>What use does a secular person have for Latin besides classical studies?
Watts J.W. - Understanding the Pentateuch as a scripture (2017)

"A text becomes ‘scripture’ in living, subjective relationship to persons and to historical tradition. No text, written, oral, or both, is sacred or authoritative in isolation from a community. A text is only ‘scripture’ insofar as a group of persons perceives it to be sacred or holy, powerful and meaningful, possessed of an exalted authority, and in some fashion transcendent of, and hence distinct from, other speech and writing. … The ‘scriptural’ characteristics of a text belong not to the text itself but to its role in a community."

"The semantic dimension of interpretation can be ritualized by delivering lectures and sermons, by staging debates, and by writing interpretive commentaries on texts. For example, laws and national constitutions get ritualized regularly in the semantic dimension by oral and written interpretations that multiply and grow more elaborate over time. They serve the ritual function of drawing attention to the laws and they index the readers’ and listeners’ responsibilities under those laws.
The performative dimension of texts can be ritualized by private and public readings and recitations. Religious worship services often focus on reading selections of sacred texts. People may memorize the text. Oral performances may be standardized as chants or set to music as songs. Theatrical scripts, for example, are designed for public performance in ritual spaces (theaters). They expect audiences and actors to behave in conventional ways that call attention to the play being performed."

[Anonymous No.19878057]

>>19878033
And? Do you think everyone is going to start bowing down to the Aeneid?

[Anonymous No.19878130]

>>19878057
>Do you think everyone is going to start bowing down to the Aeneid?
No, not everyone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handicap_principle
"costly signals must be reliable signals, costing the signaller something that could not be afforded by an individual with less of a particular trait"
"function like conspicuous consumption, signalling the ability to afford to squander a resource. Receivers then know that the signal indicates quality, because inferior quality signallers are unable to produce such wastefully extravagant signals."

[Anonymous No.19878135]

>>19878130
Can you tell me specifically what you are advocating rather than being vague?

[Anonymous No.19878190]

>>19877943
>And he'll be learning the reconstructed pronunciation so he'll sound like a histrionic retard whenever he opens his mouth.
Nobody is speaking Latin though. The Romans and Medieval people didn't record with a microphone

[Anonymous No.19878204]

>>19878190
They spoke to each other though. You can find records, for example, of diplomats complaining about pronunciation differences when they went to other countries.

[Anonymous No.19878206]

>>19877020
STICK WITH IT COMRADE

[Anonymous No.19878215]

>>19878204
Yes, but for modern day use you don't need to know how to speak Latin. The most utility you will get out of it is from reading, unless you somehow meet somebody else who speaks Latin.

[Anonymous No.19878219]

>>19878215
Don't be such a utilitarian. It's fun. We are all going to die and be thrown in a hole. Might as well have some fun for fuck's sake.

[Anonymous No.19878222]

>>19878215
I was responding to someone talking about people learning Latin as a first language. That requires speaking it.

[Anonymous No.19878223]

>>19874972
A native language needs a community and continuity. If you teach a kid Latin from birth he would be fluent but he is not a native speaker.

[Anonymous No.19878229]

>>19878219
I'm not opposed to it. I just don't care to do it myself. Although with reading and writing skill does come speaking skill.

[Anonymous No.19878235]

>>19878229
>I just don't care to do it myself.
Fair enough. I thought you were trying to convince other people in the thread not to do it.

[Anonymous No.19878253]

>>19878223
Wrong. Nativity is nativitas - natus est is born.

If you are raised since *birth* you are a native. That's why there are dying languages with 3 or 4 speakers. Are they not native because there's not enough speakers for a whole community? They are the last of the native speakers. Dalmatian's last speaker was just like a hundred years ago. Is he not native since he was alone?

I think the only argument you would have is if you are not taught by a native speaker yourself. So maybe if the kid is raised with Latin fluently, then their offspring would be the first real "native" again.

[Anonymous No.19878256]

WAYNEE WEEDEE WEEKEE

[Anonymous No.19878264]

>>19878256

[Anonymous No.19878306]

>>19877233
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI0mkt6Z3I0

[Anonymous No.19878317]

>Veni vidi vichi
Unironically superior

[Anonymous No.19878333]

>>19878317
Shut up dork

[Anonymous No.19878363]

>>19878333
Go away weekee man

[Anonymous No.19878367]

>>19878363
Hoc fella

[Anonymous No.19878604]

>>19878253
You're arguing semantics
Most people consider Irish to be a dead language even though there's still thousands of natives speaking it.
It doesn't matter what the legal definition of dead language really is. people know a dead language when they see it

[Anonymous No.19878612]

>>19878256
Vennee veedee veechey!!

[Anonymous No.19878653]

>>19878604
Cad iarrann tú a rá? Tá me in ann teanga na Gaeilge beagán a labhairt, cé nach an eirennach mise.

[Anonymous No.19878665]

>>19874421
अद्य भारतीयनाटकस्योपरि एकपुस्तकम् पठितम् मया, तत्पुस्तके अपश्याम कथम् शोकरसस्य प्रयोगम् करणीयमस्ति नाटकेषु। भवद्भिः सर्वैः पठनीयम् पुस्तकमस्ति। ततो एव व्रीहिरोटीमासानाम् भोजनम् कृतम् मया। श्वः व्यायामक्षेत्रम् गच्छेयम्॥

[Anonymous No.19878679]

χαίρετε πάντες. πῶς ἔχετε;

[Anonymous No.19878715]

>>19878653
I can't read this, but at what age do Irish people start learning Irish? Primary school? Pre-school?I'm just assuming you're Irish btw.

[Anonymous No.19878762]

>>19872790
Learned some latin in school but quickly gave up because I was a little bitch. Recently asked my grandmother to teach me Latin again. I'll probably download the LLPSI books from libgen as well.

Is the Duolingo course good enough to get some of the basics back ? I want to impress my grandma.

[Anonymous No.19878826]

>>19878762
Duolingo only teaches present tense for verbs. It's better for adding a few words to your vocabulary, I don't think it's a good place to start.

[Anonymous No.19878836]

>>19878215
It improves your English to know Latin.

[Anonymous No.19878870]

>>19877020
Filth! Pathetic as your progress may be, it will always be better than no progress at all!

[Anonymous No.19878904]

http://web.uvic.ca/hrd/greek/
this is possibly the closest thing to an interactive ancient Greek website that I'm aware of but it's kinda bugged and for some reason it doesn't recognize some accented letters when inputed via keyboard so it's kinda annoying
does anything similar exist?

[Anonymous No.19878917]

>>19878762
The time you spend on Duolingo is time away from actually studying Latin so I'd say it's 'worse than nothing'.

[Anonymous No.19878954]

>>19878762
>Recently asked my grandmother to teach me Latin again.
Why does she know Latin?

[Anonymous No.19879228]

>>19878826
>>19878917
Thanks for the advice, I'll stick to proper latin teaching materials.
>>19878954
She studied the classics in Hypokhâgne - Khâgne (intensive literary studies in France) and then theology at University. I think she prefers ancient Greek over Latin, but she knows both languages very well. Maybe I'll ask her to teach me Greek if everything goes well because I'd like to read philosophy but that's a long way off and Greek is scary. I don't know how long she'll be around for, so this is a good way to take advantage of her knowledge and spend quality time with her.

[Anonymous No.19879330]

>>19879228
>that's a long way off and Greek is scary
No time better than now. Latin will be easier but if you want to learn Greek go for it, jump in.

[Anonymous No.19879420]

>>19879228
Start learning Greek. Yes, you'll want to kill yourself every day; that's part of the fun.

[Anonymous No.19879471]

>>19879420
Can verify. Am learning to read plato and am dying.

[Anonymous No.19879507]

>>19879420
how much harder is it than latin and in what ways, if you know

[Anonymous No.19879591]

>>19879507
Not him but in my experience so far (2-ish years of Latin and almost a semester of Greek), there are just way more paradigms in Greek. You have three numbers instead of two, three voices instead of two, more tenses, etc. And there seem to be so many more exceptions to the rules.
That having been said, my professors all say Greek is a harder language at the beginning, but easier than Latin when it comes to transitioning into real literature. Apparently the particles make sorting out sentences easier than Latin, and less ambiguous.

[Anonymous No.19879627]

>OH N-

[Anonymous No.19879687]

>>19879591
To be fair the dual is almost completely useless. We basically said it existed, did the declination for duo and left it at that.

[Anonymous No.19879864]

>>19879330
>>19879420
I like the enthusiasm of this general, it feels almost too wholesome to be 4chan (then again /lit/ is one of the better boards)

I really want to stick with this, and starting both latin and greek at the same time sounds like a good way to give up on both so I'll probably go for a staggered start. I'll go all in on latin for a few months a least and then think about Greek.

[Anonymous No.19879882]

>>19879864
The more niche and high barrier to entry an interest is, the better the community is.

It's unintuitive to hear but crazy people are always in more mainstream or only slightly niche things. But at the deepest level, you find only based people

[Anonymous No.19879906]

>>19876555
I get the impression the same goes for pre-modern China. I should learn to sing the classics in traditional melodies.

[Anonymous No.19879985]

>>19877912
They are good parents but sadly this.
How to pronounce the R or whether to aspirate the plosives, even the vowels' qualities are not crucial.

The fatal mistake they made is they themselves don't care about vowel quantity. And that is the most important instinct to cultivate into the children's mind.

[Anonymous No.19880023]

>>19878665
based
one day I'll learn Sanskrit

[Anonymous No.19880029]

>>19879627
that's one of the easier verbs

[Anonymous No.19880050]

>>19879627
but wait, you ain't seen nothing yet

[Anonymous No.19880057]

>>19879985
Quantity doesn't matter outside of determining stress.
>B-but muh poetic meter
Not important enough to waste so much time learning this bullshit
The reconstructed pronunciation is garbage

[Anonymous No.19880086]

When I read a challenging piece, I often find that if I move through at a reasonable pace, my understanding will be fuzzy or vague. I can get a general sense of what is happening, but I will miss details and just gloss over the grammar. Alternatively, I can stop and look up every new word and puzzle out how the grammar of the sentence is working and what each word is doing. This gives me a better understanding, but does not feel at all like actual reading.

How do you balance these ways of reading?

[Anonymous No.19880090]

>>19880050
>aorist
what kind of mood is that? O Deus meus. I will never be ready to learn this language.

[Anonymous No.19880238]

>>19880090
It's a completed action, most of the time in the past tense. An example of aorist imperative (obviously not in past tense) would be something like: "bring me a cup of coffee" aka "complete this task."

[Anonymous No.19880276]

This might sound like a silly question, but should I study classical or koine Greek? I know most of our classical philosophy and literature survives in Attic Greek (with such exceptions as Homer, Sappho, and Alcaeus), but I inherited my dad's old Biblical Greek texts and his Greek New Testament from when he was at Bible College.

[Anonymous No.19880312]

>>19880276
the vast majority of ancient greek writing is koine. but almost all koine is more or less imitative of attic norms. i would probably recommend starting with attic but it isn't some big division like some pople make it out to be.

[Anonymous No.19880322]

>>19878215
I've met several people who speak Latin here at university.

[Anonymous No.19880332]

>>19880090
it basically corresponds to the perfect tense in latin it just has a different name. Greek has a perfect tense too but its different and not nearly as common

[Anonymous No.19880350]

>>19880057
Why is it garbage to talk how the Romans actually talked?

[Anonymous No.19880439]

>>19880050
What language is this? Russian?

[Anonymous No.19880451]

>>19880350
1. There are no more Romans
2. You will never speak to a Roman
3. You will never hear how the Romans actually spoke the language; you can reconstruct the sounds more or less but can never know the actual rhythm of their speech
4. For 99% of speakers the pronunciation sounds terrible and unnatural (likely due to reason #3)
5. It introduces unnecessary difficulty by requiring you to imitate and memorize quantitative vowel differences
6. It is primarily an academic exercise (rather than a pedagogical one) as demonstrated by the textbook insistence on learning hidden quantity, which has zero practical use
7. Its only practical use (for reading and communicating, not for academic linguistic matters) is for metrical scansion
8. Its value in allowing one to imitate the metrical rhythm is questionable due to points #3 and #4
9. People learned and used Latin fluently (in real world communication) for almost two millennia without using this pronunciation
10. It does not represent the only legitimate pronunciation used by the Romans, but a specific pronunciation used by educated Romans at a specific point in history
11. Latin did not die with Romans but continued after the fall of Rome; the language thus does not belong solely to them but is also the property of those who continued its use afterwards
12. Texts written by the ancient Romans who would have used this pronunciation constitute only a minority of the extant corpus of Latin literature

I could go on but I think that is sufficient

[Anonymous No.19880475]

>>19880451
What do you mean you don't want to larp as a Roman?

[Anonymous No.19880480]

>>19880451
>bar bar bar bar bar
moralet coping hard

[Anonymous No.19880483]

>>19880439
Old Church Slavonic.

[Anonymous No.19880488]

Have you practiced your declensions today, Anon?

[Anonymous No.19880509]

>>19880488
I haven’t memorized the 4th and 5th declensions yet. It’s too much for my head.

[Anonymous No.19880513]

>>19880451
What do you mean 'zero practical use'? Would you say that about learning the tones for Chinese? Its "only use" is for metrical scansion.

[Anonymous No.19880528]

>>19880513
You can actually hear how Chinese people speak and imitate the real thing, and then go to China and speak to them in Chinese, so learning their pronunciation has practical use simply on that level. None of that applies to Latin.

[Anonymous No.19880533]

>>19880475
why do i feel annoyed every time i look at this guy

[Anonymous No.19880537]

>>19880513
(cont.) If Chinese were no longer spoken and we had no recordings of what it sounded like, then whether one should learn the tones would have to be adjudicated on other grounds. I would make a comparison to ancient Greek, in which there is no pedagogical reason for a student to try to imitate the pitch accent. I don't know the exact situation with Chinese in this regard.

[Anonymous No.19880546]

>>19880488
I started back up last night, actually!

[Anonymous No.19880550]

It's really annoying when authors go marking both length and accent all over the place. Nigrī, the accent rules are not that hard.

>>19880509
I see claims that they aren't as important.

[Anonymous No.19880551]

Is my pronunciation of unstressed long vowels correct here? (Latin)

https://vocaroo.com/11NS0hjbkVfe

Like, how long are they supposed to be?

[Anonymous No.19880554]

>>19880528
I mean, you can hear the tones of modern dialects, you can't hear the tones of Middle Chinese that the poetic meters were created for.

[Anonymous No.19880564]

>>19880551
sounds fine to me for all non autistic/poetic purposes, length should be double that of normal vowels

[Anonymous No.19880565]

>>19880488
declensions are easy mode bro for me its conjugation in the different tenses. not nearly as fun as declining.

for more of a challenge decline adjectives with nouns

niger homo/nigri homines
nigri hominis/nigrorum hominum
nigro homini/nigris hominibus
nigrum hominem/nigros homines
nigro homine/nigris hominibus

you can do this pretty quickly after some time

[Anonymous No.19880571]

>>19880564
Is it correct or not? Does the ū in romānūs sound like a long vowel?

[Anonymous No.19880586]

>>19880488
hodie et cotide

[Anonymous No.19880589]

>>19880554
I don't know enough about Chinese to discuss that matter. I can refer to ancient Greek, as I did here >>19880537, in which I can state that learning the pitch accent is not justifiable on a pedagogical level. The comparison of Greek and Latin is interesting in this regard, as with Greek the use of the reconstructed pronunciation (sans pitch accent) makes the language easier, as the modern pronunciation of Greek has undergone a collapse of its vowel phonemes such that spelling is rendered difficult. With Latin the opposite is the case.

[Anonymous No.19880591]

>>19880550
eh partially true i suppose but 4th declension(most annoying one by far imo) is a bigger deal than youd think and 5th declension is pretty simple. whats troubling is the thought of putting work into practicing these when theyre only used here and there.

[Anonymous No.19880596]

>>19880565
Declining them in a predefined order makes me wonder how effective it is. I prefer to choose a random case and then decline it. That site an anon created may be helpful to do so.

[Anonymous No.19880598]

>>19880571
the u in Rōmānus should be short though
it's Roomáanus
your ā sounded fine to me, maybe the first ō a bit too short, but as I said, unless you want to sing poetry, I wouldn't sweat it too much

[Anonymous No.19880605]

>>19880589
Still, it seems a little strange to just ignore essential phonemic contrasts like that.

[Anonymous No.19880606]

>>19880571
>>19880551
Imagine you're reading Japanese (likely your a weeb since you post on 4chin) or Finnish (you're the Swedish bro in last thread right? ask your neighbors how they pronounce doubled vowel letters). Combined with the penultimate accent rule (second-from-last syllable accented if it's heavy, the syllable right before it accented if second-from-last syllable is light) + Italian intonation, and you're all set

[Anonymous No.19880611]

>>19880606
Wouldn't we expect Sardinian intonation to be a better guide since Sardinian is a more conservative language overall?

[Anonymous No.19880615]

>>19880451
Imagine not composing your own Latin poems

[Anonymous No.19880621]

>>19880598
Sorry, I meant the ō, there's no ū in rōmānus as you said.
>>19880606
I am, but I don't speak a word of Finnish and I don't know anyone who does.

[Anonymous No.19880630]

>>19880598
The o is long

[Anonymous No.19880634]

>>19880605
It was the norm from post-classical Rome until the early 1900s. I honestly think people would have better success learning the language if they used one of the still extant regional pronunciations. I use the Italian ("ecclesiastical") pronunciation myself.
>>19880615
People did not stop writing Latin poetry when the classical pronunciation fell away. As I stated earlier, Roman literature by speakers of the classical pronunciation is only a minority of the existing Latin literature. You can just as well write in rhyme or other accented verse.

Dies iræ, dies illa,
Solvet sæclum in favilla,
Teste David cum Sibylla.

[Anonymous No.19880643]

>>19880634
What's your view on using the English traditional pronunciation? I've been tempted to but I generally don't because no one would understand it.

[Anonymous No.19880654]

Italian man rages that people learn Latin with original pronounciation instead of speaking it as if it was Italian.

[Anonymous No.19880665]

>>19880654
smells to me more like that scottish schizo/autismo constantly raving in these threads

[Anonymous No.19880678]

>>19880643
I investigated it thoroughly in the past. The best description of it can be found in Andrews and Stoddard's Latin Grammar (free on Google Books). It has a rather complex set of rules, but you do end up with something natural to the English speaker. But the issue is that is has fully died out and is only evidenced by words that have been incorporated into English. Comparatively the Italian pronunciation is still used in the world and has a very simple set of rules that anyone can learn.
>>19880654
>>19880665
I am an American.

[Anonymous No.19880682]

>>19880665
Not really.

[Anonymous No.19880686]

>>19880605
It is, that's because he's being a contrarian. If everyone used "ecclesiastical latin" (which actually just means using the orthography of your native tongue and applying it to Latin because the actual Latin used during the Medieval era had actual phonological rules) he'd be saying that you were a pleb for not speaking the language as the Ancients did. He's reacting to normies realizing that Latin did in fact have a phonology a few years back and this being normalized, so in order to maintain his nerd-cred he has to WELL ACKTHYUALLY YOU SHOULDN'T LEARN THE LANGUAGE CORRECTLY BECAUSE NYEH NYEH NYEH.

[Anonymous No.19880688]

>>19880678
Does it make more sense to use the traditional pronunciation of some language you speak?

[Anonymous No.19880694]

>>19880615
I went through the prosody section in Allen & Greenough; it's pretty fun.

[Anonymous No.19880696]

>>19880686
>normies
Imagine being so pathetic and cretinous you're only piece of personality to be different from other people is going on an imageboard and pretending you're a member of a super secret club.
Well you don't have to imagine.

[Anonymous No.19880703]

>>19880654
No, he's not arguing that you pronounce it like you would Italian, he wants you to pronounce it as if it were whatever language that you were speaking.

[Anonymous No.19880710]

>>19880696
bro youre telling people to intentionally learn a language incorrectly so that you can disagree with people on a bhutanese scuba enthusiasm marketplace, i dont think that you have any right to call people pathetic or cretinous.

[Anonymous No.19880717]

>>19880710
>you
Okay schizo

[Anonymous No.19880718]

>>19880686
I gave a list of reasons that I have advocated for this earlier in the thread. If you want to respond to my actual arguments, they are there.
>>19880688
I'm not going to tell you not to use it, but I chose otherwise for the reason I gave. If you find it the most comfortable and think that it will help you learn, and you don't mind that no one else uses it, then perhaps that is what you should use.

[Anonymous No.19880724]

>>19880678
italian american

[Anonymous No.19880730]

>>19880710
That post was not by me. Also there is nothing "incorrect" about using a different pronunciation. I gave the reasons for this earlier in the thread.
>>19880724
Both of my parents' surnames are English.

[Anonymous No.19880739]

>>19880718
What about the pronunciation of another modern language I'm fluent in that has more straightforward rules and differs less drastically from other pronunciations? In which case I'd have traditional Esperanto (more or less traditional Slavic) or traditional Spanish to choose from.

[Anonymous No.19880743]

does every one of these threads devolve into nigger shit flinging?

reddete redditum

hey thats pretty catchy

[Anonymous No.19880751]

>>19880730
By definition not speaking the language correctly is "speaking it incorrectly". If you're intentionally mispronouncing words so that you can act smug on the internet, you are speaking the language incorrectly.

[Anonymous No.19880761]

>>19880743
What do you expect? It's just loads of lispi virgins that can't speak Latin

[Anonymous No.19880762]

>>19880751
I don't think there's anything wrong with using classical pronunciation personally, but I also think the traditional pronunciations are valid traditions with long history that were used by most Latin speakers in history.

[Anonymous No.19880767]

>>19880743
should be like redīt'ad Reddit

[Anonymous No.19880781]

>>19880739
Feel free to do whatever you think would be most helpful to you. I would imagine Spanish would be easy, but I don't know anything about how Latin is pronounced in this countries.
>>19880751
I'm sorry but there is nothing that would enshrine the particular pronunciation represented by the reconstructed model as the only "correct" pronunciation. This is only the way Latin was spoken by some people at one particular time. The language continued to be used for long after that, both by native speakers and eventually as a literary language. I repeat that the texts written by people who used this pronunciation constitute only a small minority of what is available in Latin. Most Latin works that we possess were written by people pronouncing it in some other way.

[Anonymous No.19880800]

>>19880634
>People did not stop writing Latin poetry

Medieval poetry rhymes and it's awesome. I can actually understand and hear the meter.

Friendship with Virgil ended. Leonius is my best friend now.

[Anonymous No.19880805]

>>19880781
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_regional_pronunciation

[Anonymous No.19880810]

>>19880781
So now you're doing the anti-descriptivism bit (in 2022 lmfao). Yawn.

[Anonymous No.19880819]

>>19880800
>he supposes it is interesting to rhyme word endings

[Anonymous No.19880833]

>>19880810
Descriptivism is the idea that language is defined by its use, so if I were doing anything, it would be descriptivism, as my appeal is based on the actual use of Latin throughout history. So I'm not sure why you are referring to me as an "anti-descriptivist."
>>19880805
I read on a forum that in Spain, Latin is taught with the classical pronunciation, but without a distinction between long and short vowels. Something to consider as well.

[Anonymous No.19880835]

>>19880810
How is what they're saying anti-descriptivist?

[Anonymous No.19880840]

>>19880819
Sic

[Anonymous No.19880878]

>>19880833
>hurf durf there are multiple ways to pronounce words therefore you can pronounce them however you want durrr
That's incorrect. It's the Current Year, this isn't new (but then that IS why you're doing it after all).

[Anonymous No.19880888]

>>19880878
Hmm, I'm following an established pronunciation that is still used throughout the world outside of universities and in real life, so I don't see your point.

[Anonymous No.19880895]

>>19880835
The idea that you can just makeup whatever new rules about language that you want goes against linguistic descriptivism as you are, as both anons pointed out, just making up whatever you want. It's a form of prescriptivism, it's just that the sperglord who doesn't want people to read and speak Latin as it was written spoken is prescribing rules that make it harder to understand what the people who actually wrote and spoke in Latin were writing and speaking.

[Anonymous No.19880897]

>>19880888
>linguists believe that you can just use a totally different languages orthography
No they don't.

[Anonymous No.19880933]

>>19880897
We're talking about orthoepy (pronunciation) not orthography (writing). I am beginning to doubt you, anon.

[Anonymous No.19880939]

>vides graeculum
>dies corrupta

[Anonymous No.19880972]

How many words do you need in order to guess right 25 declensions?
I needed 30. Feels bad.
https://doctor-mobius.neocities.org/latin/drills/decline.html (activate 4th and 5th declensions if you’re brave enough)

[Anonymous No.19880984]

>>19880939
*>Graeculō vīsō, >diēs corruptus

[Anonymous No.19880998]

>>19880972
>anything with macrons are counted wrong
???

[Anonymous No.19881011]

>>19880998
Bro, just ignore macrons and breves. I bet Virgil didn’t use them.

[Anonymous No.19881023]

>>19881011
yeah but for a website intended for helping students memorize endings they sure halfassed it

[Anonymous No.19881024]

>>19880998
Actual Latin does not use macrons.

[Anonymous No.19881038]

>>19881024
>you can't pronounce latin the way that the romans did
>but you also can't use macrons
/lit/

[Anonymous No.19881046]

>>19881038
I'm telling you that when you graduate your textbook and pick up a real edition of a Latin text (not intended for students) it will not have macrons.

[Anonymous No.19881063]

>>19880895
But you're not just making up rules, you're using a pre-existing tradition.

[Anonymous No.19881070]

>>19881024
I believed they used apices, though it was by no means universal.

[Anonymous No.19881073]

>>19880810
Language use is inherently prescriptive. Descriptivism is a false position made up by leftists trying to pretend their contr0ol over our linguistic institutions is natural.

[Anonymous No.19881078]

>>19881073
What are you talking about? There is no platonic Form of any language woven into the fabric of the universe, there's just what people actually use and how those forms are perceived.

[Anonymous No.19881083]

>>19881070
Modern texts don't use any diacritical markings. Older texts used to put an accent over the 1st decl. sing. abl. -a to mark it, but modern ones won't do that anymore.

[Anonymous No.19881092]

>>19881073
This, descriptivism in its modern usage is a propaganda term meaning "you can't ever criticize someone's usage of language," and the ideological trick it pulls is the creation of a false dichotomy with "prescriptivism," which supposedly means "telling everyone exactly how to speak and write their language."

Very typical of leftist propaganda: identify something you don't like (a culture or people having integrity or standards), then create a false binary on either side of it (total anarchic permissiveness vs. total totalitarian repression) and bully naturally freedom-loving Westerners into rejecting the totalitarian option, thus accepting the permissive option as the only alternative.

Speaking properly benefits both the speaker and the listener.

[Anonymous No.19881093]

>sententia vbī nulla amīca aegypta

[Anonymous No.19881094]

>>19881083
True, which I've found a little annoying (a similar thing happens in greek with α,ι,υ since those are the vowels without a special long letter) since it sometimes just makes it harder to read.

[Anonymous No.19881106]

>>19881093
You can't fool me! That's transgender Augustus!

[Anonymous No.19881109]

>>19881092
How do we know what constitutes proper speech?

[Anonymous No.19881115]

>>19881093
WOVLD

[Anonymous No.19881124]

>>19881115
*VVOVLD

[Anonymous No.19881127]

>>19881115
VVOVLD

[Anonymous No.19881136]

>>19880972
between 25-29

[Anonymous No.19881142]

Salvete omnibus! quid agitis?

also rate my oc pepe content

[Anonymous No.19881158]

>>19881092
The thing is though that with a plethora of dialects of every language "proper" speech is highly subjective. Which form of linguistics you use should depend on your goals. If you're looking at other languages, be descriptive. If you're looking at your own, unless you want to do studies on dialect, you ought to be prescriptive. Hence I want to be prescriptive with English because a standard proper form of speaking is beneficial to me.

[Anonymous No.19881176]

>>19881142
Perbellē factus est iste apu togātus!

[Anonymous No.19881179]

>>19880998
Fixing this now. May have to re-scrape the whole set of nouns.

[Anonymous No.19881189]

>>19881078
>using the strawman concept of perscriptivism
There are multiple ways to express almost anything, and in the act of expressing themselves, the user of a language decides which way they think is the best way of expressing that thing. the use of language itself is a process of expressing normative attitudes towards language. Language is inherently prescriptive.
>>19881092
>This, descriptivism in its modern usage is a propaganda term meaning "you can't ever criticize someone's usage of language,"
Yeah, they go from language shouldn't necessarily have to follow the rules you learned in grade school to saying that you shouldn't have normative attitudes towards language at all, that all a language needs to be is valid. This is a pretty big jump.
> and the ideological trick it pulls is the creation of a false dichotomy with "prescriptivism," which supposedly means "telling everyone exactly how to speak and write their language."
The extent that this dichotomy is false is just insane. It's literally "using language" vs. "thing that language use makes impossible." Linguistics as a discipline should just be abolished. If these are the kind of ideas it produces, it's just actively harmful.

[Anonymous No.19881201]

>>19881109
The same way we do with art, poetry, and prose quality: by setting up pragmatic notions like intersubjectively verified utility, beauty, and otherwise "excellence." These notions automatically entail the role and function of the critic, intergenerational fads and fashions like preferences for the limpid or the baroque, the classic vs. the "modern," etc.

In practice they also entail reasonable thresholds for innovation, reinvention, and classicism. Empirically, most intersubjectively self-conscious linguistic groups (however defined) don't seem to like either excessive stultification or excessive effacement and replacement of their language. Within language change and drift, people maintain natural standards, things like the Carolingian and Italian Renaissances naturally occur and re-occur, academies are established and rebelled against, reforms are adopted and abandoned.

There are certain empirical minima and maxima. The Italian humanists became increasingly aware of the "barbarous" character of medieval Latin, but they would have noticed if it had dropped entire tenses and voices due to a radical break, like a war that disrupted all Latin education for 30 years. This just happens more often in the arts where the disruption and dislocation of masters from potential students can actually set an art or technique back centuries.

What is being done to certain communities right now isn't on par with the natural drift of standards and natural back and forth of fads, it's psychological warfare.

>>19881158
That's also true, but compare the Italian or French case again. Where do you draw the line between "naturally occurring major variety" and "minor variety arising from mere drift, not worth distinguishing as a species?" It's the same as in biology where groupings are ultimately arbitrary although nobody would argue a wolf is not a bird.

We should think in terms of, what is worth saving and what isn't? It's sad to think of the loss and homogenisation of Occitan or Iberian dialects, but there were necessarily hundreds of varieties and variations WITHIN "Occitan," the homogenisation of which into a singular dialect is what made Occitan Occitan in the Middle Ages in the first place. Ultimately, quot homines tot linguae, so everything has to be pragmatically defined anyway.

>If you're looking at other languages, be descriptive.
>I want to be prescriptive with English because a standard proper form of speaking is beneficial to me.
This is really well put. To me it maintains the pragmatic stance between the false dichotomy, since it acknowledges the reality of intersubjective standards of excellence.

This is why I don't like apologetics for AAVE. Not only is their thought being impoverished, "normal" English continues to exist, so they are being shut out of what is now the elite lingua franca. As usual leftist propagandists cause the very thing they claim to fight, they have actually reified racism by linguistically segregating blacks.

[Anonymous No.19881205]

>>19881189
I mean, sure, but choosing a particular way to express something doesn't mean you think other ways of expressing it are invalid.

[Anonymous No.19881207]

>>19880819
Rectissimus.

[Anonymous No.19881231]

https://www.magistrula.com/latin/charts?cap=adv&quiz=decl&mac=essMac

nouns, adjectives, verbs, pronouns, etc

daily reminder to embed the paradigms into your brain by rote

[Anonymous No.19881251]

>>19881205
But the problem is that this discussion shouldn't be about validity, but whether a community of people for any number of reasons finds certain usages of a language good or bad (or perhaps superior or inferior). Again, you're attacking the strawman version of descriptivism that I explicitly distanced myself from.
The only thing that is invalid is descriptivism as a position. It's nothing more than a term for academic communists to assert their will over language.

[Anonymous No.19881254]

>>19881093
*quando, i think

[Anonymous No.19881309]

>>19881142
I'm stealing this.

[Anonymous No.19881598]

What is the accusative pl. of Trōas (pl.) , "Trojans" ? Hans Ørberg's Aeneid says "Trōas" (same as nom. pl.) , and gives Trōs, Trōis = Trōiānus.

The problem is, I can' t find Trōs in a dictionary, and according to the dictionary the pl. acc. of Troās (the word I CAN find) is Trōadem.
Even the true Greek pl. acc. isn't Trōas. Wiktionary gives Τρωᾰ́δᾰ as the pl. acc. but not Τρωάς, which is only the nom. or voc. form.

[Anonymous No.19881615]

>>19881598
Sorry I mixed up Τρώς and Τρωάς

[Anonymous No.19881651]

hello classical
I don't know any classical language
I just discovered (through google) that Archilochus is the creator of my favorite saying "the fox knows many tricks, but the hedgehog knows one big thing"
It made me want to read whatever works of him have survived, but I can't find anything, like there is no good edition of his fragments
What do you recommend?

[Anonymous No.19881658]

>>19881651
Start with the Greeks

[Anonymous No.19881675]

>>19881651
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_literary_work#Classical_world

now CRY

[Anonymous No.19881760]

>>19881598
it is Trōs, my (Italian) dictionary does report it as adjective equivalent of Trōiānus as well

[Anonymous No.19881871]

>>19881598
Plural greek words decline regularly.

[Anonymous No.19881876]

Does anyone know of any good latin thesarus'?

[Anonymous No.19881883]

>>19881871
Maybe it means of the first declension only tho idk, troas looks close enough to AEneas to me

[Anonymous No.19881974]

>>19881231
Hunc amicas? Videverim, non saepe.
>(blowing way, way past my studying)

[Anonymous No.19882058]

>>19881974
i am not understanding anything

[Anonymous No.19882162]

>>19882058
My intention: "Your friend? I've seen him, sometimes". I've seen him around on birbsite.

[Anonymous No.19882190]

>>19881093
The hair is longer on the bust. Otherwise, it looks good, much better than that awful Caesar one.

[Anonymous No.19882860]

>>19881093
anyone have a pic of that egirl who looks just like cleopatra?

[Anonymous No.19882905]

>>19872790
Anyone have any good recommendations for beginning to learn Latin? Particularly looking for books; I was thinking this one: https://www.amazon.com/Learning-Latin-Ancient-Way-Textbooks/dp/1107474574/ref=pd_bxgy_1/142-1185581-6178811?pd_rd_w=XTPh0&pf_rd_p=6b3eefea-7b16-43e9-bc45-2e332cbf99da&pf_rd_r=PN8FBF2B4H8CH2PVG5W4&pd_rd_r=4a182722-54b8-4771-9d3a-d8a911f4fff5&pd_rd_wg=xzHX2&pd_rd_i=1107474574&psc=1

[Anonymous No.19882936]

I'm a classics and biblical studies student. Most people I interact with are absolute retards. I am not so pompous to think that I am a lone genius. I must be stupid too, but I often think about what ways I am retarded, including when it comes to classics. This is a disconcerting feeling.

[Anonymous No.19882964]

>>19882905
I am bored so here you go https://libgen.li/edition.php?id=137456434

also LLPSI as first book doubtlessly, but if you hate popular things use Wheelock's which I also liked very much

[Anonymous No.19883015]

>>19880451
Who cares? All the Romans are dead

[Anonymous No.19883037]

>>19883015
>omni Romani mortui sunt

[Anonymous No.19883128]

(Latin)
https://vocaroo.com/174ykRVyHd9w
Is my treatment of long vowels at least acceptable here? Can I call it a day and move on and do normal reading, or should I spend more effort on trying to learn how to into unstressed long vowels?

[Anonymous No.19883275]

>>19883128
I am no expert but I find many problems with your pronunciation and scansion.
and you sound too artificial. I am not sure if the Romans had conventions for tonally stressing words in epic poetry. I stress the WORD'S ACCENT but not the first syllable of a foot (imo this should also be okay if you don't use the intonation too strongly)

Also you messed up too many syllables (in order):

Long but you shortened them:
Tr Ō iae
qu Ī
ōr Ī s
L Ā vīniaque (you read it like L*avīniaqu*i)
terr Ī s
I Ū nōnis
de Ō s - you read it like dēos
Lati Ō -you read it like Lātio
patrēs - you read it like *pātres
R Ō mae - you read it like Roma*é (stress should be on ō)
animīs - you read it like *anīmis

Short but you lengthened them:
Īt A liam
pr O fugus
mem O rem (also the m at the end doesn't go to the next syllable "Iūnonis" even if you don't realize coda m as nasalization)
qu O que
paSs u s - you read it like *pasūs
īnf E rRetque - you read it like infēretque
d E ōs - you read it like dēos
Lati Ō -you read it like Lātio
g E nus
patrēs - you read it like *pātres
moen I a
impulerit - you read it like *impūlērit
animīs - you read it like *anīmis


Fātō - you read it like fātū
multum ille - um should be elided
bellō - you read it like belu
AlbānīquE - you read it like Albānīqu*i
Tantaene animīs - should be elided as Tantaen'animīs
Albānīque - you read it like *Albānīquie(?)

You might work on scansion first most importantly

[Anonymous No.19883281]

>>19883128
Here is a good page I used for scanning the opening hundred or so lines of Aeneid. Sadly I couldn't find the entire Aeneid scanned and commented digitally like this.
https://hands-up-education.org/aen1notes2/index.html

[Anonymous No.19883331]

>>19881142
got this random declension just for you, amīce

[Anonymous No.19883384]

>>19883275
I agree that the scansion is pretty butchered, but that's not really my goal. I'm trying to sound artificial, because my goal here is solely to figure out the accents.

The specific breakdowns per word are very helpful, thank you.

Would you advise I learn how to get the vowels right first, or to try and get the first few chapters of LLPSI down?
>>19883281
How does that show scansion? Do you have to click something?

[Anonymous No.19883421]

>>19883384
You're welcome
>Would you advise I learn how to get the vowels right first,
I would say first you can practice reading words slowly in isolation, using any text. You don't need to decipher the meaning, just practice diction. LLPSI also lets you pick up grammar during this process so I recommend you use it for practice, but really any text will do.
>or to try and get the first few chapters of LLPSI down?
What do you mean by "down"? No need to hurry in learning ancient languages, right?
>How does that show scansion? Do you have to click something?
Scansion in Latin is mainly figuring out syllable weights and elisions (that page doesn't show elisions unfortunately) according to the meter of the poem. You have to know the vowels' length to figure out the weight of a syllable in an isolated word. Knowing the meter's syllable weight pattern also helps, and is the main way for scanning poems when there are no macrons to help you. That page already marked all long vowels for you so the weight of each syllable in each word is clear. You just need to assemble them into the meter's syllable pattern. Aeneid is dactylic hexameter so this can help you https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dactylic_hexameter

If you follow Familia Rōmāna until the end there is a concise introduction of poetic meters. It puts poetry in the second from last chapter for a reason. You can just read through it slowly and everything builds up naturally. Again, no need to hurry

[Anonymous No.19883479]

>>19880800
Take a look at De Contemptu Mundi if this is what you're into

[Anonymous No.19884073]

>>19872790
nihil nescire numquam nequis

[Anonymous No.19884265]

I totally ignore all vowel lengths completely when reading aloud to myself. When learning a new word, I consult a macronized dictionary and according to the long vowels and heavy syllables assign stress markers with apices. An example:

offerō, offerre, obtulī, oblātus

óffero, offérre, óbtuli, oblátus

I just stress where the apices are and ignore anything else. As an English speaker who can’t really differentiate the lengths, my priority is to stress the word correctly when reading to myself. The word stress is important because of you wouldn’t stress the word “elevator” as elevaTOR. I’d hate to be saying HAbere instead of the correct haBEre…

[Anonymous No.19884291]

>>19884265
Just look at the penultimate syllable and see if it's long or short. That's the only one that matters. If there's an enclitic just stress the syllable before the enclitic.

[Anonymous No.19884299]

>>19884265
>I totally ignore all vowel lengths
say that to his face not online fucker and see what happens

[Anonymous No.19884303]

>>19884265
If you want to do this you should just use the ecclesiastical pronunciation. It will sound better.

[Anonymous No.19884386]

>>19884303
I prefer the continuity of C's and G's always being hard, but that's just my own preference. Also, "ae" as "eh" makes everything sound the same.

>Say what you will about the reconstructed pronunciation, but it maintains the distinctions between phonemes.

[Anonymous No.19884415]

>>19884386
I can't stand the "v" being pronounced as "w". Losing the distinction of "ae" doesn't really matter in comparison to that. Just my opinion.

[Anonymous No.19884431]

>>19884415
My choice is to pronounce everything according to the reconstructed pronunciation except V. It's always as English V. It just sounds better to me and I only use Latin to read anyways.

[Anonymous No.19884445]

>>19883331
Where is this?

[Anonymous No.19884481]

>Classical pronunciation with no long/short vowel distinction
This is how Latin should be taught, really.

[Anonymous No.19884489]

>>19884481
Also with no elision, forgot to add that.

[Anonymous No.19884500]

What are some rare and unknown pronounciations?
Can I pronounce all v's as f's?

[Anonymous No.19884579]

>>19884481
Why? Sure in later periods it went away but vowel quantity is not horribly difficult.

[Anonymous No.19884615]

>>19884579
It is. It's extremely unnatural for English speakers and it's extra you have to memorize.

[Anonymous No.19884621]

The trilled 'r' has to go as well. Curse all languages which use this consonant.

[Anonymous No.19884640]

>>19884621
it's especially bad when you don't know if it's supposed to be soft or rolled

[Anonymous No.19884644]

>its another episode of people complaining people sre reading Latin in the way Latin was spoken

[Anonymous No.19884646]

>>19884615
Fuckin' hit the nail on the head there. Fuck long vowels! They're still useful to determine where the stress is in a word, but other than that I disregard them completely.

[Anonymous No.19884651]

>>19884644
>We can't help ourselves

[Anonymous No.19884655]

>>19884646
If you ever learn Greek you'll think it's helpful since it will help you remember how to spell words (long e and short e, and long o and short o are all different letters). But for Latin it's just a pain in the ass.

[Anonymous No.19884665]

>>19884644
You can do whatever you want. I'm talking about how it's taught. If you want to learn all the vowel quantities, knock yourself out

[Anonymous No.19884678]

Did ancient cities actually look like that? Seems like h*man beings would be never be able to keep everything so pristine

[Anonymous No.19884692]

Latin gladius is from the same word as cladh in Gaelic originally clados
So gladius is a celtic word

[Anonymous No.19884752]

>>19884692
It's from the Iberian Celts in Spain.

[Anonymous No.19884810]

>>19884752
Yes the word was probably borrowed from there.
But its strange the romans changed C to G

[Anonymous No.19884825]

these 3rd decl. i-stems fuck me up sometimes

[Anonymous No.19884826]

How do anons pronounce ch, th, ph in Latin?

[Anonymous No.19884855]

>>19884826
Its just the respected letters with an aspirate. So just pronounce the h as a letter separate.

[Anonymous No.19884867]

>>19884855
I know what they are. I know English also aspirate c, t, p normally, so people have some difficulty pronouncing them as unaspirated, which creates a problem with this aspirated/unaspirated distinction. So some textbooks say to pronounce ch, th, ph, as scottish ch, english th, f, respectively. I'm just asking what other anons do.

[Anonymous No.19884882]

>>19884810
G comes from C in Latin. That's why the look the same and people named Gaius have their names abbreviated as C.

Also in other languages like Japanese G & K are related sounds like S & Z or at & D.

[Anonymous No.19884891]

>>19884882
*T & D

[Anonymous No.19884955]

>>19884867
>say to pronounce ch, th, ph, as scottish ch, english th, f
You definitely don't do that

[Anonymous No.19884978]

>>19884955
That's how it's often handled in Greek for χ, θ, φ which are the direct equivalents.

[Anonymous No.19884987]

>>19884978
Thats because greek people actually speak it like that

[Anonymous No.19884997]

>>19884987
I mean in the teaching of ancient Greek. In the classical period they would have been pronounced as aspirated versions of κ, τ, π.

[Anonymous No.19885004]

>>19878306
welp, there's goes my second daily listening to this, possibly not the last

[Anonymous No.19885028]

What is the best resource to learn classical Greek?

[Anonymous No.19885116]

>>19884882
the Etruscans took over the Γ, Κ and koppa from the west Greek alphabet and used them as C, K and Q for the same sound because they only had one kind of guttural stop. They made it into a convention to write k in front of a, c in front of e and q in front of u. Then the Romans took that alphabet and did not change it for these stops even though they had a g like consonant. After some centuries some Roman had the idea to add a little hook to the C so that it became G.

[Anonymous No.19885126]

>>19885028
personally I'm in the (Italian)Athenaze gang for a gradual cozy approach with comprehensible input
helps though that I already know some good Latin

[Anonymous No.19885150]

>>19885028
Athenaze + Mastronarde
First for reading, second for grammar
Greek is front-loaded with difficulty so don't get stressed, go slow, understand. Don't give up

[Anonymous No.19885177]

>>19885126
>>19885150
Thanks anons, will give it a shot

[Anonymous No.19885227]

>>19885126
>helps though that I already know some good Latin
I speak some romance languages and can make some sense out of Italian. Would you say it's worth it to try to muscle my way through Italian Athenaze, or would that only make learning Greek even more difficult?

[Anonymous No.19885243]

>>19885227
Why not get English Athenaze and supplement with Italian? That way no confusion and probably extra reading material

[Anonymous No.19885505]

>>19884640
Is that [ɾ] vs [r]?

[Anonymous No.19885511]

>>19884640
I use a tap for everything and only do the trill for rr

[Anonymous No.19885730]

>>19884445
https://www.magistrula.com/latin/charts

>>19884678
Look for common elements in the examples you see in your everyday life, anon., which would have been lacking in the ancient world.

[Anonymous No.19885979]

>>19885126
Rate my reading pls
https://voca.ro/1e4xhRrhYdPb

[Anonymous No.19886036]

>>19885979
The pitch and pronunciation sound good to me but I always wondered if spoken Greek really sounded like that midget from Twin Peaks. Same with that Ranieri guy, very unnatural.

[Anonymous No.19886296]

>>19874731
I put it off, but it’s almost complete. Im a selfish bastard so I’ll post it when the vocab catches up. Pretty much i went on a bender and added all but five or so chapters, but now I’m waiting for my 25 new words a day to run out before I add another. I ended up fusing a little metamorphoses as well. Check the next few threads.

[Anonymous No.19886335]

>>19886296

[Anonymous No.19886567]

>>19886296
Opus domini facis, amice.

[Anonymous No.19886774]

>>19883037
*omnes romanorum morti sunt, unless for some reason that i dont know youre using the dative

mortui means i died, while the 2nd person plural of that would be mortuerunt

[Anonymous No.19886809]

>>19885730
when so many of those human beings are human property laboring at the expense of a minority the results are as such

also that pic is fictional

[Anonymous No.19886827]

>>19884882
You're confusing writing systems with phonologies.

[Anonymous No.19886830]

>>19883331
>>19884445
>>19885730
glad to see this is catching on :D

[Anonymous No.19886833]

>>19884987
Didn't some Romans in the late period pronounce PH as F in imitation of the contemporary Greek pronunciation, hence why the traditional European pronunciations of Latin inherit /f/ for <ph>?

[Anonymous No.19886838]

You know what I think would be cool? A comprehensible input course, like LLPSI or Aleph with Beth, for Classical Chinese. If you'd be interested in collaborating on one, contact me at Terpomo11#9900

[Anonymous No.19886870]

>>19886838
tell us uninitiated greco-bromans about how classical chinese is different from modern chinese

[Anonymous No.19886879]

>>19886838
I know there is a Greek channel like Aleph with Beth by the same people. I know that doesn't answer your question, but it reminded me and I don't think anyone has shared the link before.

Alpha With Angela
https://www.youtube.com/c/AlphawithAngela
Comprehensible Input for Greek

[Anonymous No.19886891]

ἦλθον, εἶδον, ἐνίκησα.

[Anonymous No.19886932]

>>19886870
Basically, Classical Chinese stands in roughly a similar relationship to the modern Chinese dialects as Latin does to the Romance languages; it's ancestral to them, and for a long time it was used as a standard written language by their speakers. For some time it coexisted with the written vernacular, like Latin in medieval and renaissance europe. Notably, it's pretty much always read in the local pronunciation of the characters. It's generally more monosyllabic and elliptical than the modern Chinese languages, as all of them lose some phonetic distinctions it made, and some lose a lot. It often heavily involves literary allusions. Traditional poetic meter is based on tones in Middle Chinese; a syllable/character is classified as level tone (first Middle Chinese tone) or oblique tone (one of the other three; the four Middle Chinese tones are not the same as those of Mandarin, as they split based on initial voicing and then merged back to four.) Any other questions?

[Anonymous No.19887130]

>>19887128