/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.19798377]

What's the point of reading pessimistic literature? Is it just to push yourself to commit suicide?

[Anonymous No.19798431]

I'd rather live a different truth.

[Anonymous No.19798861]

There's some creppy pleasure in being sad, almost addictive. So when you can't put yourself down you appeal to someone else or it's just what I guess.

[Anonymous No.19798892]

>>19798377
zapffe and mainlander translate when? hurry b4 ill kms

[Anonymous No.19798896]

>>19798892
Die zoomer swine.

[Anonymous No.19798898]

>>19798896
im a 30 yo boomer lol

[Anonymous No.19798910]

Are there any pessimists who are not also fatalists?

[Anonymous No.19798918]

>>19798377
How many of these dudes offed themselves?

[Anonymous No.19798924]

>>19798377
It's edifying. There is something very freeing and refreshing about listen to unfettered truth. It doesn't make me feel depressed at all, it actually liberates me from the depression...

[Anonymous No.19798968]

>>19798918
Only two

[Anonymous No.19798971]

It's a bad habit.

[Anonymous No.19798984]

>>19798377
no but for real its a good cope

[Anonymous No.19798995]

>>19798377
I find pessimism is useful insofar as it makes you disinterested in the material world. Any more of that is excess, and any less is deficiency.

[Anonymous No.19799009]

>>19798377
To see a different perspective since I've had basically the perfect life so far.

[Anonymous No.19799043]

>>19798377
>>19798431
>>19798861
>>19798892
>>19798896
>>19798898
>>19798910
>>19798918
>>19798924
>>19798968
>>19798971
>>19798984
>>19798995
>>19799009
the measure of any philosophy is the men it produces. all those "philosophers" are massive little bitches and anyone who reads them is an impotent faggot. they're not worth reading, refuting, anything. if life were a game, these niggers would be the team that doesn't even show up to play because they're simply too gay, so just ignore them and actually do something with your life.
>inb4 y-you just don't get it you're not smart enough
I don't care, go ahead and feel superior for doing nothing but jerking off all day, it literally has no bearing on me. fuck niggers and fuck trannies.

[Anonymous No.19799057]

>>19799043
didnt read plus your coping

[Anonymous No.19799073]

>>19799043
Is that your philosophy?

[Anonymous No.19799081]

>>19799043
Based

[Anonymous No.19799091]

Do you realize that all great literature — Moby Dick, Huckleberry Finn, A Farewell to Arms, The Scarlet Letter, The Red Badge of Courage, The Iliad and The Odyssey, Crime and Punishment, The Bible, and The Charge of the Light Brigade — are all about what a bummer it is to be a human being? (Isn’t it such a relief to have somebody say that?)

[Anonymous No.19799095]

>>19799081
>>19799043

What are your proposed solutions to our current era of de-growth, peak oil, ecological overshoot, and all interlocking predicaments currently in motion?

[Anonymous No.19799100]

>>19799091
>books that contain any conflict are actually about what a bummer it is to be a human being
maybe from your perspective as a massive bitch who's afraid of conflict lmao

[Anonymous No.19799105]

>>19799095
killing every single Jew on the earth.

[Anonymous No.19799108]

Schopenhauer’s views about our extensive and intense suffering are also based on his meta-physical theory. I do not have here the space to discuss this metaphysical theory, but will just note that the falseness of the empirical claims he makes weakens it.

[Anonymous No.19799142]

>>19799108
why do you spam this in every thread?

[Anonymous No.19799148]

>>19799108
Can you go into depth? I'm interested in studying Schopenhauer's World as Will and Representation.

[Anonymous No.19799170]

>>19799142
Bitch I mentioned it in one other thread.

[Anonymous No.19799177]

You read it to know there's someone else out there who is as skeptical as you are, and through that you're able to regain faith and fend off loneliness. Ecclesiastes is pessimistic.

[Anonymous No.19799204]

>>19799170
You directly copy pasted it.

[Anonymous No.19799231]

>>19799091
>The Red Badge of Courage,
I agree with your post, but Really? This one aged poorly and nobody even bothers with Crane anymore.

[Anonymous No.19799310]

>>19799148
Just gonna explain one error, I'm a bit sleep right now.
It is not true that all pleasures presuppose prior suffering. Although some do, many do not. Some pleasures are not a response to striving at all;
they just appear. For example, we may enjoy a pleasant conversation with an acquaintance we happen to meet on the street. We may just
overhear an interesting analysis on the radio. We may be offered and enjoy tasty food without being hungry. We can enjoy unanticipated pleasures. In some other cases, pleasures indeed involve desiring, but the desiring is not painful. For example, when I plan a trip abroad, the anticipation does not usually involve suffering. On the contrary, the anticipation is itself pleasurable, and thus I enjoy myself both during the trip and ahead of time, when I am planning and looking forward to it.

[Anonymous No.19799317]

>>19798377
Schopenhauer, Michelstaedter, Nietzsche
Zapffe, Caraco, Cioran
Ligotti, ????, Thacker?

[Anonymous No.19799348]

>>19798924
Bitch how the fuck do you know it’s the truth?

[Anonymous No.19799442]

Radical optimism is the only way to live. It is dishonest and unfortunately weak (as in a heroic manly sense, a lack of being a hero) in the face of the dismal aspects of reality but it's the only way to save yourself. To be ecstatically psychopathically exaltedly happy at all times, or at least pleasently content, which I geuss is what stoicism is

[Anonymous No.19799532]

>>19799442
Could you expand on this? I think there is some truth in what I what call 'Placebo-ism', even though modern self help misses the point.
I don't know what books discuss the accumulation of rituals that seem to fool the mind. (Cynically I would say the only ones talked about are religious texts)

[Anonymous No.19799779]

>>19799532
One can either help themselves or hurt themselves. Every moment one must choose which it will be

[Anonymous No.19799792]

>>19799095
Not my problem

[Anonymous No.19799938]

>>19799317
>?????
David benetar

[Anonymous No.19801320]

>>19799177
>Ecclesiastes is pessimistic.
It's not. Have you read it in its entirety?

[Anonymous No.19802002]

>>19798377
yes

>>19799091
All those examples have little beautiful glimpses of beauty, they might depict conflict, since there is no literature without it, but their overall answer is not "life is hellhole". Take The Odyssey, the finale is Ulysses finally coming back home wealthier to his family, it was not easy but was deserved.
Take Moby Dick, the book actually follows the Quetzalcoatl scheme: the protagonist looks as an object of desire to the whale, and thus it can't beat it since it would only bring insatisfaction, so that the whale wins is still actually a victory, the estimation for Moby Dick is bigger than the hate for it, and the book is fulfilled with other victories and depictions of the beauty of whales; those moments overpass the ugly parts.
Huckleberry Finn finds a family that tends towards acceptance and The Scarlet Letter also culminates in accepting the scarlet letter over her chest, the book is more about overcoming denial and lies rather than «the world is an ugly ugly place, and I want to die».

[Anonymous No.19802106]

Honesty I feel like a lot of it is almost like a religious/ conspiracy theory hole.

You get to the point where you realize that most of the arguments for it go "oh yea you agree with me I'm right but if you disagree with me I'm also right and you're coping."

It's like extreme solipsism, there are no arguments you can really pose against it but that doesn't mean it's correct. It's the death of thought.

Also various weird shit like "Oh yea, happiness is an illusion but suffering is a totally real dude".

Like if you're gonna build your life on some grand unfalsifiable theory why this one? You're not much better then the average christcuck.

This isn't to say that I think that any and every life is meaningful or worth living. but the idea that literally every life isn't seems to be a bit much.

[Anonymous No.19802365]

>>19802106
Just to add on to this thought. I feel like a lot of these guys make arguments that appeal emotionally but don't actually make logical sense when you step back and think about them.

[Anonymous No.19802410]

>>19799310
Schopenhauer's metaphysics aside, we can still mechanically break-down all the "goods" in those situations. If we take the material game as reliable, we can say that even a surprise delicious meal is playing off of fitness behavior; I evolved to enjoy food for energy, my brain rewards me for it. My brain rewards deliciousness because it only furthers the survival game. This is the same with good conversation. I'm just pushing my reward buttons that are only there because they helped the creature survive and pass on DNA.

To what end is still a problematically open question.

[Anonymous No.19802439]

>>19802410
Again, that isn't the same argument. You might say you brain is doing this for biological reasons, but that doesn't mean your brain is simply doing it to realize some sort of suffering.

There's this idea that just because something is evolved it means it's not "real" or doesn't matter, but this doesn't follow. Our understanding of science and physics are based on evolved institutions (like induction) but I wouldn't start calling them fake.

[Anonymous No.19802466]

>>19802410
In terms of good conversation, (as a thought experiment) even if you were some entity that was beyond biology, some spiritual being out there in the universe for eternity, might you still want to find another to talk to?

[Anonymous No.19802468]

>>19802439
I didn't say it rendered the actions or rewards fake in any way. I'm more the quietist anymore about such things.

My point was metaphysical description aside, we have some deeper information here on the material side regarding utility, or possible lack thereof. If forced to self-report, I struggle to square the abundance of negative states with the lack of positive ones. Its a problem, at least for me, and "me" is all I really have access to.

[Anonymous No.19802478]

>>19798995
Based

As a much needed critique of worldly values, pessimism is very valuable . When it goes on to make grand metaphysical statements about how everything is hopeless and there is nothing worthwhile, that's where it should be discarded

[Anonymous No.19802483]

>>19802466
>might you still want to find another to talk to?
I could see more obvious reasoning winning out, like social situations being advantageous. If I have to say it represents a metaphysical good somewhere out there, then I'm in this realm of pure speculation.

It works for me as the animal I think I am to enjoy socializing, but I don't necessarily scale that up to some universal constant or inherent "good."

[Anonymous No.19802525]

>>19802483
I didnt say anything about good or anything else you said. I posited a what I thought was simple question.

Given the though experiment circumstances I provided, might you desire to interact with another.

The intrigue being a possible beyond physical example of something you considered to be a desire based purely on biology

[Anonymous No.19802532]

>>19802483
>but I don't necessarily scale that up to some universal constant or inherent "good."

I mean that's possible, but you need to also have some proof that it doesn't exist. Especially when certain statements (like killing and raping your own child is wrong) seem very intuitive.

[Anonymous No.19802533]

>>19802483
Ok I reread what you wrote and can ask:

In that sceanario could you desire to be eternally alone?

It is, strange, or not, or impressive that some people on earth can be satisfied with absolute loneliness.

[Anonymous No.19802546]

>>19802468


Let me try to challenge your intuition instead.

What is true about moral statements that isn’t true about mathematical ones? “Murder is wrong” and “2 + 2 = 4” are both:

1) Facts about things that cannot be studied by physics (i.e. not about physical reality in the strictest sense)

2) Intuitively felt to be true by most people

3) Logically justifiable according to certain systems of axiomatic reasoning (note that in both cases there is no argument, except perhaps a pragmatic or meta-philosophical one, against simply rejecting the axioms)

Now, there obviously are good philosophical reasons to believe that mathematics and morality are very different; I’m not advancing this as a formal argument. But do any of these reasons actually stand behind your intuition? I actually have much the same gut feeling that you do, but I think it can only be justified logically as applying to objective truth in general (as opposed to beliefs which are useful for reasons independent of their demonstrable truth value, like those of science, or that other people have subjective experiences identical in kind to my own).

[Anonymous No.19802551]

>>19802525
>Given the though experiment circumstances I provided, might you desire to interact with another.
And I gave you my answer. As an embodied being, any answer I give will do.

Will I want someone to talk to as a concept I can scarcely imagine? I don't know. I can't scarcely imagine even the circumstance of your thought experiment without staining it with learned human things.

Yes? I'd value conversation if I were something different than what i am? I might at that point value throwing footballs at zebras, and thats how I express my feelings and wants to others in some unknowable state.

[Anonymous No.19802573]

>>19802546
>2) Intuitively felt to be true by most people
You can't get past this step without falling into the pit, though, I can't say what good intuition is. I can continue giving the raw material descriptions because its all I seemingly have access to. i know what you're asking for and I can't give it to you.

I can never say if something "feels" a certain way due to strictly animal fitness, or partially some universal entropic sense of right, or one quarter this and another quarter that.

[Anonymous No.19802590]

>>19799095
>peak oil
does not exist
https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2014/12/weve-been-incorrectly-predicting-peak-oil-for-over-a-century/

oil is abiogenic too
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1751-3928.2006.tb00271.x

[Anonymous No.19802596]

>>19802573
>You can't get past this step without falling into the pit, though, I can't say what good intuition is. I can continue giving the raw material descriptions because its all I seemingly have access to. i know what you're asking for and I can't give it to you.

Yea but that's part of the problem. Your limiting yourself for no real reason. The idea that we should only believe in things we can say with 100 percent certainty is dumb.


>I can never say if something "feels" a certain way due to strictly animal fitness, or partially some universal entropic sense of right, or one quarter this and another quarter that.

Sure, but I don't spend too much time doubting my other senses. Despite them coming back as a result of animal fitness.

[Anonymous No.19802629]

>>19802596
>The idea that we should only believe in things we can say with 100 percent certainty is dumb.
And so is the outright denial of the nature of that information, which I know isn't what you're proposing. It all adds up to unknowable. No matter how much materialism I get on my idealism, or vice versa, the answer is plbbbbbbbbbbbbbttt!!!


I have my access, my valence states, thats it. I see a lot of negative valence states, Therefore for me it works to say that there is negative character to my existence, as shittily ill-informed as it is. The information I seemingly get is poo.

[Anonymous No.19802657]

>>19802629
>And so is the outright denial of the nature of that information, which I know isn't what you're proposing. It all adds up to unknowable. No matter how much materialism I get on my idealism, or vice versa, the answer is plbbbbbbbbbbbbbttt!!!


Then this comes down to game theory. What way of living gives you a better chance at doing the "right" thing.

I'm not gonna deny it sucks, but it's what you and I gotta do.

[Anonymous No.19802785]

>>19802657
>What way of living gives you a better chance at doing the "right" thing.
I was really about to say that we're just begging for a strategy here. That's all. Without a clear objective, I can't seem to come up with a good strategy.

Maybe something will become clearer as we tone down the information input.

[Anonymous No.19802803]

>>19802785
>I was really about to say that we're just begging for a strategy here. That's all. Without a clear objective, I can't seem to come up with a good strategy.

I assume that in part it requires finding out what moral systems seem most likely to be true, then act in that regard.

[Anonymous No.19802907]

>>19802803
>finding out what moral systems seem most likely to be true
I'm finding the best strategy is to take from society just enough to never draw its ire.

[Anonymous No.19803086]

>>19798377
>By means of supernatural horror we may evade, if momentarily, the horrific reprisals of affirmation. Every one of us, having been stolen from nonexistence, opens his eyes on the world and looks down the road at a few convulsions and a final obliteration. What a weird scenario. So why affirm anything, why make a pathetic virtue of a terrible necessity? We are destined to a fool’s fate that deserves to be mocked. And since there is no one else around to do the mocking, we will take on the job. Bent on a perverse self-gratification, let us indulge in cruel pleasures against ourselves and our pretensions, let us delight in the Cosmic Macabre. At least we may send up a few bitter laughs into the cobwebbed corners of this crusty old universe.
Supernatural horror, in all its eerie constructions, enables a reader to taste treats inconsistent with his personal welfare. Admittedly, this is not a practice likely to find universal favor. True macabrists are as rare as poets and form a secret society by the bad-standing of their memberships elsewhere, most being debarred at birth from the festivities of the social masque. But those who have gotten a good whiff of other worlds and sampled a cuisine marginal to stable existence will not be able to stay themselves from the uncanny feast of horrors that has been laid out for them. They will loiter in moonlight, eyeing the entranceways to cemeteries, waiting for some propitious moment to crash the gates and see what is inside. Once and for all, let us speak the paradox aloud: “We have been force- fed for so long the shudders of a thousand graveyards that at last, seeking a macabre redemption, a salvation by horror, we willingly consume the terrors of the tomb . . . and find them to our liking.”

[Anonymous No.19803099]

>>19803086
My bad. Second paragraph also in 'quote' (>)

[Anonymous No.19803122]

>>19803086
While the book is fine I find the philosophy lacking. Honestly, his fiction is far better than this. His arguments are pretty dreadful and his best ideas have found much better support from the likes of Schopenhauer, Cioran, Nietzsche, Benatar (even those I don't agree with, but it's still a good exercise)

[Anonymous No.19803139]

>>19798377
>Is it just to push yourself to commit suicide?

that would be optimistic literature desu~

[Anonymous No.19803191]

>>19803122
Yeah agreed. I could see that as well. I would consider the book more like a sort of work of "amateur philosophy"

[Anonymous No.19803254]

>>19801320
I’ve read the entire Bible except for all the History books of the Old Testament, and re-read certain books often. I’m doing the history books now though.
I probably just view/define pessimism differently than you. It’s not nihilistic. Job is pessimistic too if you don’t take the ending as Earth but Heaven. Ecclesiastes is what I consider pessimism, I guess Job is ultimately Optimism, and nothing in the Bible is nihilistic obviously. What is pessimism to you I’ll ultimately ask, for me it ultimately leads to embracing God, so my explanation should make it clear why I consider Ecclesiastes pessimistic

[Anonymous No.19803516]

>>19803191
Yea and that's why I don't really think it's worth reading. It makes all the rest of his work less good somehow.

It's like knowing your favorite author wrote MLP fanfiction

[Anonymous No.19803558]

Cioran in the middle right literally says that he feels his most happiest after reading pessimistic thinkers. He writes that he feels like a bridegroom on his wedding night after reading Schopenhauer. So no. Obviously no. Then again Schopenhauer was a pessimist FOR THE WORLD. Just like Jesus is a pessimist FOR THIS WORLD, but not for the beyond. Rise higher OP

[Anonymous No.19803605]

>>19803558
>Jesus is a pessimist
yikes

[Anonymous No.19803619]

Why is it always white and secular jewish men?

[Anonymous No.19803695]

>>19803619
no nigger iq