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/lit/ - Literature


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19726632 No.19726632 [Reply] [Original]

Classical language general does not belong on /int/ because there is no nation on this planet that speak classical languages.
Their use is exclusive to being able to read classical literature and are therefore rightfully discussed on /lit/

Post your bookshelf right now mod, and then go fuck yourself

>> No.19727026

>>19726632
>there is no nation on this planet that speak classical languages
>he doesn't know

>> No.19727087

>>19726632
This scene wasn't in the movie. There are so many promo shots from that movie.

>> No.19727106

Is there a Latin audio learning thing? I drive a lot and I'm not smart enough to read at the same time.

>> No.19727205

>>19726632
This.

>> No.19727616

lol The Little Prince is translated into Latin

>> No.19728446

>>19726632
These generals we so much more electrifying back in like October. Haven't seen that much good discussion in a while.

>> No.19728606

Reading Pugio Bruti. It's just at my level and it's quite an intriguing story too.

>> No.19728657

Learning Greek in school and having to do shit like spontaneously generate in my mind the middle passive past secondary fourth person quadrangular athematic interior angle of a defective verb, with no textually attested version of that form, because no one in Greek ever said "I need that to have verbedededed'ing'ed to and for myself (and you (reciprocally))," made me think of Greek the wrong way and avoid reading texts and building my vocabulary for far too long and I ended up losing conjugation skills as a result because it killed my motivation

But in the end I'm weirdly glad I didn't come from the opposite direction entirely, so afraid of grammar that I was afraid to be ball tortured into memorizing conjugations like a computer. Begrudgingly I'm glad I did the rote memorization too.

This appreciation has increased significantly since doing Greek and Latin with extremely smart friends (PhDs in multiple subjects, both humanities and STEM) who simply cannot for the fucking life of them learn any Latin/Greek. Even people who know five or six languages seem incapable of just doing the fucking work that I did in one or two weeks in my first Latin/Greek class.

>> No.19729508
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19729508

Maybe a Latin bro can help me with this translation. The second half of the sentence was translated into: "we will not reach it unless we press forward in good works." I'm wondering why the third person singular passive (-itur) is being used instead of the plural first person active? This is from the Rule of Saint Benedict.

>> No.19729588

>>19729508
is the successful journey the implied object and pervenire is in an extended metaphorical sense of attaining or accomplishing?

"unless to there by good acts the journey is hastened/motivated/impelled, it will never attain"

>> No.19729625

>>19729588
Ah, that makes sense. Thanks anon!

>> No.19729658

>>19729625
hey that was just my guess as a retard don't fail your test because of me

>> No.19729876

Is it necessary to learn the tone and accent marks for Greek if I'm learning Koine?

>> No.19730052

Started with the first chapter of Roma Aeterna after a long break from LLPSI, and it's shocking easy reading so far. Maybe I actually am improving.

>> No.19730686

>>19730052
Apparently after 2 or 3 chapters RA is like the hardest thing possible. The first chapter was written by Orberg. I believe the rest are excerpts of real literature.

>> No.19730718

>>19728446
Maybe, we should make generals less often, and when we do make them, they should specialized. I really appreciated those grad school threads the jannies took down. Instead of making it clg or alg, it could be aneg (ancient near Eastern general), which only happens once a month.

>> No.19730734

>>19726632
>there is no nation on this planet that speak classical languages
People still speak sanskrit natively in sone parts of india. Not the whole country but,

>> No.19730764

>>19729508
Pretty common for that to occur in Latin, particularly in passives. 3rd singular being a general 'it' or sometimes 'there' or 'one' or an unstated implied subject as >>19729625 says.
"unless there is pressing forwards... there will scarcely be reaching" for a poor translation but solid example of the concept

>> No.19730769

>>19729876
yes
it isn't that hard, in a week or two you will be able to get it down

>> No.19730795

>>19730764
Not him, but when you translate it as an impersonal, "there is hurrying," almost like it's "licet" (it is permitted ...) or "accidit" (it happens that ...), is this standard? Or are you giving a more idiomatic translation in English of something that still LOGICALLY has the form of a passive personal (that is, it has a subject, it's just an implied one) in Latin?

Because here wouldn't it logically, non-idiomatically, be:
>Unless it is hurried, it will not be arrived (at)

What I'm asking is, is this logically speaking a case of an implied subject, which you then translate idiomatically as if it's a proper impersonal verb, or were Romans and Latinists accustomed to "hearing" subject-lacking passives "as" impersonals instantly?

>> No.19730834

>>19730769
1. Was Greek no longer tonal by that era?
2. If a textbook doesn't include accents and tones, should I find another one?

>> No.19730845

>>19730769
I think he means the noun tone/stress accents, the ones you can't learn by just knowing the pattern for recessive accent shuffling like verbs

I don't know if it's the same for Koine but in Attic every teacher I've ever had was 50/50 on learning accents early or learning them later, they are very useful later on but they are discouraging to learn early because they're so arbitrary

>> No.19730848

>>19730845
>recessive accent shuffling
What's that?

>> No.19731066

Bonam noctem, /clg/

>> No.19731104

>>19731066
Vale

>> No.19731229

>>19730686
It looks like from the second chapter, it's the Aenid rewritten in prose. Which is kind of exciting, since the Aenid is cool as fuck, but Latin poetry is still an incomprehensible nightmare to me. But since finishing Familia Romana, I spent a long time grinding through de Bello Gallico and Eutropius and drilling forms a la Dowling. So maybe it won't be too bad.

Anyway, the first chapter is long as fuck (370 lines), so I'm not quite finished.

>> No.19731333

>>19731229
Good luck, I'm stuck on chapter XII of pars I

>> No.19731347

>>19726632
Why does /clg/ get so many replies, but /alg/ gets virtually none? Are yall not reading ancient texts or something? Why would you learn a dead language and completely ignore its extant literature?

>> No.19731350

>>19731347
Because it's redundant

>> No.19731543
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19731543

>>19731333
>capitulum XII
>Miles Romanus

Good chapter. The bits about the roman military are pretty cool. Though Cap. XXXIII hits hard in the feels department.

My lighthearted story about a kids sleeping in class and slaves running off with the master's money suddenly became 'how do I write a letter to my best friend's parents to tell them how he died?'

>> No.19732422

>>19730795
Good question, the only answer I can give, and it is aterrible answer, is it depends on context. Sometimes there is no possible subject, sometimes one is implied.
They probably just implicitly understood it. Consider
>there's a storm coming
No native speaker pays any mind to "there's". Most probably wouldn't even remember it had been said, only that a storm is coming. This is not a passive but the implicit understanding involved is essentially the same.
That said >>19729588
probably has the right idea and best translation so far.

>> No.19732437

>>19731347
this: >>19731350
just merge the generals

>> No.19732445

>>19731350
I don't kmow fren, people seem to be focusing more on LLPSI than analysing Plato or Tacitus

>> No.19732451

>>19730848
all verbs (except the active infinitives and participles) have their accent as far back from the end of the word as possible (before contraction) following the standard accent rules. So there are no verbs that naturally have their accent on the last syllables, compared to adjectives and nouns which regularly do.

>> No.19732453

>>19730795
If you want a decent article on the topic
https://www.jstor.org/stable/4432142

>> No.19732464

>>19730848
If you don't know this and you are learning Greek stop and go learn accents. There are handful of rules to learn. Going on without doing so will only cause you pain

>> No.19732609

>>19729508
Here is my attempt: If we want to live under the tent of his reign, we won't reach this place (the kingdom) unless we hurry with good actions.

It's a bit tricky because there is a double negstion going on. And at first it's not obvious which part of the sentence is the main one.

>> No.19732672

>>19730764
the constellation of si..., nisi..... minime.... is translatable as: if, only if, surely not

If reaching the place were possible it would be only if we hurry our good actions because if we don't we surely won't reach that place.

Poor translation but the concept. Other anons had it right too I guess but i wanted to see for myself.

>> No.19732815

Duo Romani inter se longissima epistola scribenda certaverunt. Alter "eo rus" scripsit. Alter "I!" respondit.

>> No.19733118

>>19730718
Not a bad idea. Especially since these generals usually devolve into a big argument about LLPSI and one guy asking if anyone speaks Classical Chinese.

>> No.19733135

>>19732464
Thanks. Does Athenaze do a good job covering it?

>> No.19733171

>>19728657
>This appreciation has increased significantly since doing Greek and Latin with extremely smart friends who simply cannot for the fucking life of them learn any Latin/Greek.
Be humble. Comparison is the thief of joy. Live for yourself. Ignore these words at your own peril.

>> No.19733240

>>19733135
I haven't used Athenaze. From a quick skim it seems so.
I recommend Mastronarde - Introduction to Attic Greek. Alternatively Groton - From Alpha to Omega. Find them and others all here under textbooks
https://mega.nz/#F!9o4QEIIK!P3piz8Bfw-z7jgb7Q8NWDg

>> No.19733902

>>19733135
read these pages https://archive.org/details/agreekgrammarfo02smytgoog/page/36/mode/2up and then take a Greek text that you're reading right now and try to explain to yourself why the accent is where it is for every word

>> No.19733950

>>19732445
Because you aren't posting any analysis of Tacitus in here.

>> No.19734048

i really can't contribute to this thread unless they're concerned with all ancient/classical languages, since i study Assyriology

>> No.19734069
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19734069

thread theme
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI0mkt6Z3I0

>> No.19734244

>>19733950
I am here to lurk and learn :3

>> No.19734672
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19734672

>>19734069
its so good

>> No.19735647

>>19734069
Gratias!

>> No.19736220

>>19731543
Update: halfway through the second chapter of Roma Aeterna. Getting a little trickier, especially with the poetry excerpts, and I've had to look up a few words. But it feels pretty cool reading some actual Virgil and understanding it. Still feels like Orberg. I'm still picking up new grammar just from context.

>Quidquid id est, timeo Danaos — et dona ferentes

>> No.19736268

salvete omnes, ut valetis?
how many hours a day do you lads spend studying?

>> No.19736793
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19736793

>>19726632

>> No.19737008

>>19726632
My second semester Latin class got canceled because only 7 people signed up :( should I just continue going through Lingua Latina on my own trying to find some youtuber?

>> No.19737024

>>19737008
Ask the prof if they'd let you do an independent study.

>> No.19737031

>>19737024
Have you done something like that before and how much does it cost?

>> No.19737061

>>19737031
It was basically just another class you could register for at my uni, not sure how it works at other schools or if you were just doing a one-off class.
Also note an independent study requires a lot more discipline on the part of the student, and the prof still has to be willing to devote time to you even though they may have more commitments elsewhere if they aren't "officially" teaching a course.

>> No.19737067
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19737067

West Saxons rise up

>> No.19737077

>>19737061
Ah, I see. It probably wouldn't be possible as the professor was an adjunct professor and teaches at other schools around the city but I'll check with them regardless.

>> No.19737104

>>19726632
/clg/ is better suited for /his/.
There's even people who know Sumerian over there, whereas these threads are dominated by Greek and Latin.

Anyway, anyone know a good resource on learning Old English?

>> No.19737112

>>19734048
What's the best way to learn cuneiform?
I've decided to self-learn Hittite; and, while I'm picking up the language itself fine, I'm having trouble with the script.

>> No.19737559

Anyone write their own stuff in classical/ancient languages? Does it help understanding?

>> No.19738075

>>19737559
Of course it helps understanding

>> No.19738563

>>19737104
Yes, see the following
https://mega.nz/folder/x4VG3DRL#lqecF4q2ywojGLE0O8cu4A/folder/ItEgnZKb

>> No.19739023

>>19734069
I often use this as base to recite the Aeneid since they are both in hexameter, but what would I search for if I wanted a similar "melody", perhaps without the singing? I know pretty much 0 about music theory and shit so I don't know how to express it, let alone make it by myself

>> No.19739066

>>19737559
Gotta build those neural connections, brah. Neurons that fire together, wire together. Get writing, reading and try speaking.

>> No.19739353

Anyone have a t*rr*nt for Podium Arts audiobooks? They are pretty good and I'd love to pay the guy but there's no way in hell I'm going to give away $45 of my neetbux for a 90min recording.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Am71Njxz0eI

>> No.19739894

>>19739353
Check Twirpx

>> No.19741923

βουμπ

>> No.19742592

>>19738563
D-do you have less suspicious link?
That could take me anywhere.

>> No.19742638

>>19742592
it's mega.nz, it's a pretty famous hosting website

>> No.19742642

>>19742592
Not him, but it's legit. It's the same folder used by language learners on /int/

>> No.19743107

.

>> No.19743110

Please remember to call this thread "classical literature general" so the jannies can't move it.

>> No.19743166

>>19726632
Met up with my Latin teacher earlier after a hiatus of about a month. Although I've done no Wheelock's in that time, I have been using LLPSI, Anki, and a vulgate bible for practice, and found that while looking at some of the practice questions in Wheelock's I was able to either sightread or almost sightread several of them, which was immensely satisfying and very motivating. I'm definitely going to have to review some grammar rules, though.

What's some good Latin reading material that lends itself well to beginners? I'm probably not at a point yet where I can read independent Latin works comfortably, but what is a good entry point? Comprehensible input is more inaccessible with Latin, at least in terms of variety.

>> No.19743197

Help me understand this sentence, /clg/.

>Etiam tunc Cassandra, filia Priami virgo cui res futuras praedicenti nemo umquam credebat, fatum Troiae civibus suis praedixit

My confusion is around praedicenti. I get the sense of 'young woman to whom future things are foretold but no one ever believes', but I can't figure out what praedicenti belongs with.

Oh. Huh. In trying to explain my confusion, I think I figured it out. It's a present participle that's dative, to go with cui. It's not 'woman to whom future things are foretold', but 'woman, fortelling future things, whom no one ever believed'. Cui is the dative object of credebat.

>> No.19743285
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19743285

Si quisquam artem grammaticae negleget, e fonte Pierii numquam hauriet atque a flava Minerva numquam basiatur.

>> No.19743310

>>19743166
I found Fabula Faciles to be good reading. Starts easy and gets gradually more challenging.

Steadman has a version with vocabulary included, which I really like: https://geoffreysteadman.files.wordpress.com/2019/05/ritchie.may2019.pdf

>> No.19743375

>>19743197
That's the idea. I would just move the whom earlier to make clear the intention that people didn't believe her specifically when the was fortelling the future.

"... whom, fortelling the future, no one ever believed"

>>19730052
The first chapter is the easiest because it's most like Familia Romana. The Roma Aeterna transitions away from pedagogical texts designed make their meaning evident from context to natural Latin texts unadapted from Latin authors. You will ptobably find the difficulty ramps up over the course of the Livy chapters.

>> No.19743466

>>19743166
Wheelock's Reader has a good selection

>> No.19744217

>>19726632
Should I go for a classics degree, /lit/?

>> No.19744574

>>19744217
No, keep it a hobby.

>> No.19744643

>>19744217
No, and I have a classics degree. It will not benefit you in getting a job aside from academia, and classics academia is not a place you want to be. Any other routes available to you would also be available without a Classics degree. Maybe make it a minor or get a credential to teach Latin.
Classics degrees really serve no purpose. They are wedged in the middle of foreign language, history, archaeology, philosophy, and a half dozen other departments but specialize in none aside from Classics. I do not regret mine but looking back it would have been much better to go with another degree and keep Latin/Greek a hobby. It is extremely fulfilling in that regard and while some formal education may help to spark new interests or ways of thinking about the ancient world it mostly drains the energy out of you. I found much more joy in ancient works after graduating. Also my current employment has absolutely nothing to do with Classics.

>> No.19745686

>>19743310
I poked through this and it looks pretty neat, thanks anon
>>19743466
I've had this on my radar too, and it probably makes sense as the next logical step. Thanks!

>> No.19745822

>its another episode of people saying old=classical right?

>> No.19746226
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19746226

Am I taking too many liberties when translating? I used perseus tufts as a source and dictionary when I didn't know a word (I was stuck on the offer prayers bit for a day).

>> No.19746431
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19746431

Is this a good primer?

>> No.19746486

>>19746226
my own Attic is basic so don't take my word for it, but since τε comes after προσευξόμενος shouldn't it be more like "Yesterday I went down to the Peiraeus with Glaucon son of Ariston both to..."
why "find Glaucon"? μετά + gen. just means "with", no?

>> No.19746533

>>19746486
Thanks, that helps. I'll alter it now. I used "find" quite randomly, now I see.

>> No.19747063

>>19746431
That's a frequency dictionary, not a primer.

Try "Greek and Intensive Course", "Reading Greek", or "Athenaze".

If those are too hard, just get a Biblical course for Koine Greek and then do Attic later.

>> No.19747302
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19747302

>>19726632
>Epsilon or εἶ is called the god's letter because of a large E dedicated to Apollo at Delphi.

>> No.19747912

>>19746226
here's the structure
(εγω, ο Σωκρατης)
κατεβην
προσευξομενος (future part. in final meaning referring to the subject Sokrates )
τε και αμα
βουλομενος θεασασθαι (pres. part. referring to the subject Sokrates)
τινα τροπον ποιησουσιν (interrogative clause with a future finite verb of course only future in relation to the main sentence) ... in which way they were going to it
ατε... αγοντες. causal participle referring to them who held the feast.

so:
Yesterday I went down to the Peiraius with Glaucon the son of Ariston to pray to the goddess and at the same time because I wanted to see the festivity, in which manner they were going to do/conduct it, because they were just carrying it out for the first time.

>> No.19747938

>>19726632
Does anyone know of a good textbook/source for learning Greek?

>> No.19748315

>>19747938
see >>19747063
>Try "Greek and Intensive Course", "Reading Greek", or "Athenaze".

>> No.19748380

Has anyone heard anything about Accademia Vivarium Novum? I'm trying to take a gap year between undergrad and grad school and it seems like a really cool program (plus it's free).

>> No.19748635

>>19748380
Are you sure that it's free? That don't sound right. There's a couple of these living Latin things like Paedeia Institute has one and Schola Latina has one too I think. These things usually cost several hundred dollars and don't include travel, lodging, or food.

>> No.19748860
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19748860

>>19726632
>when the sentence finally clicks
no better feeling

>> No.19750153

μὴ ἀπόθανε

>> No.19750210

>>19748860
This

>> No.19750454

>>19727026
Explain.

>> No.19750461

>>19727106
Well, on Librivox I've found at least one audiobook of a basic Latin textbook, if that counts.

>> No.19750467

>>19730734
They may speak it, but natively? There are people who grew up speaking Sanskrit?

>> No.19750469

>>19748380
I have been a student there some years ago.
Yes, it is indeed free (lodging, food, textbooks, as well as study trips. Basically everything other than traveling there in the first place). And yes, if you want to completely immerse yourself in Latin and Ancient Greek, you will be able to do so there.

No idea how they are handling Covid though or how that affects their program

>> No.19750473

>>19730834
>If a textbook doesn't include accents and tones, should I find another one?
Yes, even if you're using modern pronunciation you need to know where the accent is to know which syllable to stress.

>> No.19750493

>>19737008
What the hell, why? Last semester I was in a Greek course with literally one other student.

>> No.19750501

>>19737559
I often take notes or jot down thoughts in Classical Chinese, though I often have to borrow words for modern concepts from Mandarin or Japanese. I really need to work on memorizing the classics as scholars traditionally did, though.

>> No.19750538

>>19726632
Let's see Paul Allens deponent verb

>> No.19750684

>>19747302
haha, actually lol'd

>> No.19751415

>>19750469
Don't you have to be a university student?

>> No.19751465

>>19750538
lmfao

>> No.19751532

>>19751415
Unless something has changed since I've been there, no.

>> No.19751855

>>19751532
I just looked on their site and it says the summer Latin program is 2,000 euros bro
https://vivariumnovum.net/en/courses/summer

>> No.19752049

>>19751855
Summer programmes have always been like that. I was referring to the year long enrollment in the Academia which is the proper programme and which is covered by a 'tuition'.

>> No.19752065

>>19752049
https://vivariumnovum.net/en/year/admission

>People 16-25 only.
I'm 27 :(
>submit letter saying what degrees you have or are currently pursuing.
I'm not in college.

>> No.19752116

>>19752065
I wasnt in college when I got admitted.
As for the age restriction, yeah, that may actually be a thing. Although, if you really want to, you could still try to apply, maybe they will make an exception, depending on circumstances.

>> No.19752128

>>19752065
>People 16-25 only.
It depresses me how closed-off things seem after the mid or late 20s when it comes to pursuing further learning or passions.

>> No.19752165

>>19752128
I feel like I'm fucked desu. This is what makes people stick with dead end jobs and give up on dreams by their early 30s

>> No.19752331

>>19752165
I'm pretty sure there are still opportunities. It's just a matter of finding them.

>> No.19752703

Can someone tldr me how to use lingua latina?
My current thoughts is this
>read a chapter of lingua latina
>listen to a recitation of the chapter online
>write out the chapter
>read it again
>listen to a recitation of the chapter online
>listen to a recitation of the chapter and repeat after them
>move onto a new chapter and do the same thing
I'm mostly worried about what my ability to produce latin will be doing this, should I buy the book containing exercises?

>> No.19752753

>>19752703
Are you not doing the exercises at the end of the chapters in LLPSI?

>> No.19753629 [SPOILER] 
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19753629

Lets do something fun.
Write a shitpost in a classical language of you choice. I'll start. In case grammar is broken beyond comprehension there's pic rel containing the english sentence.

Crepusculum invenerat illam in arbusculis residebat, gemebat.
Omnium excrementum luxior quam prius erat et turpior fatebat. Ubi luna ortus est, ea defecabat aqua bruneta. Plurius illa bibebat quam plurius illa defecabat, sed plurius bibebat quam plurius sitiebatur illa fuit

>> No.19753772

>>19752049
>tuition
>free

>> No.19753982

>>19753629
what the fuck was he thinking when he wrote this passage?

>> No.19754147

>>19744643
>>19744574
Thanks anons.

>> No.19754198
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19754198

>>19752128
>>19752165
>>19752331
At that point you are expected to know more about yourself and the world you live in. This is not to say you absolutely should, just that that is what is expected of you.
Autodidacticism is pretty much required to realize true virtue. Don't let the lack of options bog you down. Not only are you interested but also capable. If you are past 'college years' and interested in something then do it. Get books, talk to others more knowledgeable, join groups, start activities. Giving up on dreams is the absolute worst thing you can do. Better to strive for something for 30 years only to realize you don't want it than to do nothing and wallow.
Life is short and you have limited time. Make the most of it. Start by choosing something you have always wanted to do but never done and doing it. This is as simple as cracking open a textbook or picking up a tool.
Do not let others drag you down
Do not get discouraged
Do not allow yourself to wallow in self-pity
Do not give up in the face of adversity
You are the architect and constructor of your own life. Carpe diem, Vale

>> No.19754215

hey /lit/izens, just found this
https://arshaavinash.in/index.php/books-on-sanskrit-grammar/

>> No.19754410

>>19754198
basadum

>> No.19755152

bump

>> No.19755294

>>19750454
(Roman)ia

>> No.19755814

anyone here able to comment about paideia institute vs vivarium novum?
it seems like the paideia institute has more of an institutional reputation, while vivarium novum seems to be far more focus on promoting latin fluency. There's also the Polis institute in jerusalem.

>> No.19755937

>>19755814>>19748380
this was helpful for a newfag like me, thx

>> No.19756804

.

>> No.19757171

>>19755937
i was just asking a question in >>19755814
i don't know shit

>> No.19757274

>>19755294
Romanian is one descendant of Latin. It's not the same language.

>> No.19757301

Replying here in hopes they might see it since the thread 404'd:
>>19754112
>>19754155
>>19754166
I said Classical Chinese, not Mandarin. They're two different languages as much as French and Latin are. Classical Chinese was the language of the educated in a whole region of the world for centuries.
>>19755711
https://web.archive.org/web/20200610015108/http://www.invisiblebooks.com/CGCC.htm
https://archive.org/details/introductiontoli00branuoft
https://scholarworks.iu.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/2022/23480/Wenyan-Primer-Index.pdf?sequence=2&isAllowed=y
http://pds11.egloos.com/pds/200901/16/93/Classical_Chinese_Grammar.pdf

>> No.19757714

>>19755814
Vivarium is also very religious and affiliated with Jesuits and other shit. Paideia is supposedly more secular. There's also Schola Latina you should look into as well.

>> No.19757782

>>19757301
Huh, funnily enough I am the 2nd anon
Yeah I know classical chinese are different, also my family are cantonese not mandarin
Ngl seeing your post here has surprised me cause I thought you were shitposting but I wouldn't bother going this far for a shitpost

>> No.19758166

>>19757782
I honestly do think there's a lot of great literature of value in Classical Chinese. Like I said I've heard it estimated that at some point half the books in the world were written in it.

>> No.19758874
File: 67 KB, 1106x1012, 1641771002999.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
19758874

>trying (again) to learn sanskrit

>> No.19758889

>>19758874
poo

>> No.19758892

>>19758874
What happened last time?

>> No.19759107

>>19758874
Don't give up anon.

>> No.19759183

How would you rank latin literature in terms of difficulty?
Is the works of erasmus more difficult than caeser? The works of livy harder than cicero?

>> No.19759390

>>19759183
Easiest is the Vulgate, then Medieval Latin, then Classical writers like Eutropius, Caesar, and Cornelius Nepos.

Hardest is like Livy & Horace.

Everything else is somewhere in the middle.

>> No.19759395

>>19759390
I forgot to say Tacitus as hardest. He's harder than Livy in prose. Horace is hardest poet.

>> No.19759421

>>19758889
Yep, a buddhist/hindoo larper
>>19758892
The 3 last times actually, lack of consistency. After work i don't want to do a shit, just turn off the brain and play street fighter. If i have energy I read a book.
>>19759107
thanks bro

>> No.19760184

>>19759183
Entry level Classical would be Caesar, Isidorus, Plautus, some Catullus
Cicero is in the middle with varying levels depending on the text
Hardest Tacitus, Horace, Virgil's Eclogues and Georgics.
You should read whatever interests you and not focus on difficulty. While it may be easier to start with some authors if you really want to read a particular work then set your mind to it and go for it.

>> No.19760336

I'm reading the Iliad. How do I pronounce names that have an 'o' with two dots over it?

>> No.19760507

>>19760336
Can you give an example?

>> No.19760580

>>19734069
Euax!

>> No.19760704

>>19760336
Usually in Ancient Greek diaeresis is used to distinguish two adjacent vowels from diphthongs.
For example, see Odysseus in the dative, Epic and Attic
Epic - Ὀδυσσῆϊ - O / dus / se / i
Attic - Ὀδῠσσεῖ - O / dus / sei
4 syllables vs. 3
As for oö it generally applies the same in Homeric Greek. 'oo' contracting into 'ou' was not standard in Homeric and often the meter requires 'oo' to consist of two separate sounds. It also solves the problem presented by omicron followed by omega (όω), which are separately pronounced, as in Laocoön (Λαοκόων), though this particular example is not in Homer.
When you see 'oö' it is easiest to read them as two omicrons side by side.
Peirithoös - Pee / ri / tho / os
This will help get you accustomed to seeing diaeresis marks as separating vowels and bring your pronunciation in line with Homeric meter.

>> No.19760813

>>19737067
is that gothic?

>> No.19760916

>>19760813
Don't think so, Gothic didn't use the Latin script. By the post text I'd infer it's Old English.

>> No.19760939

>>19760813
>>19760916
It is a page from the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle

>> No.19760946

>>19728657

Learning Latin and especially Greek requires basic self discipline which most people don't really have. They got where they are through reliably doing thoughtless chores like schoolwork and petty social engagements. Then passing the big IQ test of their college admissions exam. But mentally engaging with a difficult subject, doing it every day or on some kind of mostly consistent schedule, and really poring into it and setting objective standards for understanding and progress. None of that really matters in life you fucking gay nerd lmao

>> No.19760964

>>19754198
I hope you have a good week anon. Thank you.

>> No.19760985

>>19733118
llpsi is based though

>> No.19760997

>>19750467
> There are people who grew up speaking
Yes, 55,000 to be precise. I know one of them.

>>19758874
need any help? I'm fluent in it.

>> No.19761005

>>19760997
As a revival like Hebrew I take it?

>> No.19761067

>>19760916
>>19760939
oi thx m8s

>> No.19761098

>>19750467
Sure. Not long ago some rich nobles in Eruope grew up by learning latin as their first language and usually spoke it in private situations
Still makes Latin and Sanskrit "dead" languages, as the vocabulary and rules are settled in stone and dont accept any innovation and/or new words

>> No.19761104

>>19759183
I would avoid medieval latin. It's basically it's own weird language. They usually used only the first three declinations of latin and the influence of their vulgan native tounge also often fucks up the correct latin phrase construction (subject-object-verb). Not to mentions the frequent uses of "barbarism" (like "guerram", from germanic "war", instead of the proper latin "bellam")

>> No.19761208

>>19761104
The quality of medieval Latin varied but my understanding is that some of it was quite good.

>> No.19761314

>>19761005
No, there hasn't been any revival of Sanskrit like that. It's just that in India the tradition is kinda unbroken in a way it isn't for Latin and Greek in Europe. So some Brahmins in certain villages in Karnataka speak it as their native tongue.

>> No.19761339

>>19761314
It has not been transmitted unchanged as a mother tongue for 2000 years. That's not how language change works.

>> No.19761888
File: 352 KB, 844x1228, FAJPRYPVIAceG0j.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
19761888

>>19760704
based, thank you.

>> No.19762859
File: 15 KB, 170x204, screen.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
19762859

What on earth is the genitive case of "Achillēs" (in Latin)? In line 30 of Aeneid I read "Achillis" in Ørberg's edition but "Achillī" in all places elsewhere. And wiktionary gives -is too.

>> No.19762902

>>19762859
Achillis should be the more fitting one seeing it's a borrowing from Greek's equivalent third declension, but it's just how it is I guess, my dictionary also reports three different genitive endings, -is, -i and even -ei, guess Roman and other authors themselves were not in total agreement

>> No.19764144

Does anyone have the learn Latin chart with all the beginner books on it?

>> No.19764172

>>19760946
If someone's consuming desire is to master Latin and Greek, how would that not matter in their life?

>> No.19764180
File: 3.20 MB, 6535x6535, 1640108621061.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
19764180

>>19764144
This one?

>> No.19764249

thoughts on dowling method bros

>> No.19764260

Can someone tell me what the difference is with comparatives in Latin such as -or compared to -us? (For instance, what's the difference between "altior" and "altius" when they both seem to mean "higher"?)

>> No.19764285

>>19764180
Yeah that’s it
Much appreciated!

>> No.19764348

>>19764260
first is masculine/feminine, second is neuter ending
but -ius is also the ending of the adverb derived from the adjective, so altius can mean both "higher"(neutral e.g altius monumentum, the higher/taller monument) but also the adverb higher/"more highly" e.g sali altius, jump! higher

>> No.19764355

>>19764249
At first I thought it seemed pretty smart, but now I think it's a bit overly prescriptive.
Learning all the declensions before reading any latin is not a good method imo. You should learn the declensions AS you read latin. That way you have something to mentally associate them to, rather than them just being abstract concepts with no connection to anything.

Furthermore and while not entirely Dowling, I think the overempthasis on Lingua Latina is misguided and is purely just overexcitment for the novelty of the natural method over grammar method.

I think it's best to read both Wheelock and Lingua Latina at the same time, in addition to the Dowling method of brute forcing the declensions.
Picking only one option other, believing that other methods will somehow give you bad habits is just pointless team-picking.
You should seek to learn from all avaliable sources. A rich and varied source of learning is the best way to avoid picking up bad habits

>> No.19764386

>>19764348
Thanks, I appreciate it.

>> No.19764396

>>19760946
i hate normies

>> No.19764505

>>19764249
I think drilling declensions and conjugations like that is a great tool and very helpful. But I wouldn't wait to actually start reading. I think reading and drills reinforce each other.

>>19764355
>I think the overempthasis on Lingua Latina is misguided
Yeah, I think LLPSI is great, but it shouldn't be your only tool. Maybe I'm just dense, but there were plenty of times when I just couldn't figure out what Oreburg was trying to teach me and I had to go look up explanations of the grammar rules in English.

>> No.19765008

>>19764505
ive been slacking off on dowling method I think I might just do it once I'm almost finished llpsi

>> No.19765025

>>19764249
I think it's silly to treat Latiin differently than any other natural human language, because that's what it is.

>> No.19765047

>>19762859
both depending on author.
-is from the Greek declension
-i from Latin transliteration (Achilleus)

>> No.19765164

>>19726632
>Classical language general does not belong on /int/ because there is no nation on this planet that speak classical languages.
Is Vatican a country?

>> No.19765171

>>19765025
It's different in that getting enough input and immersion isn't really practical despite some YouTube videos and discord chat. You really have to compensate for it if you want to memorize stuff without needing a dictionary.

>> No.19765184

>>19765164
Literally no one there speaks Latin anymore unfortunately besides the Pope's personal translator who writes his speeches for him.

The bald autist on YouTube actually went there to try and chat with them in Latin and the priests couldn't even say "Hi, my name is x I'm from Spain".

Saying Latin is the official language there is more of a formality and tradition than a practical thing. Everyone just speaks Italian, Spanish, or something else.

>> No.19765234

>>19765184
>The bald autist on YouTube actually went there to try and chat with them in Latin and the priests couldn't even say "Hi, my name is x I'm from Spain".
kek

>> No.19765239

>>19765184
just watched that video
>only these 3 were brave enough to accept this challenge
what a faggot, his arrogance is unbelievable

>> No.19765257

>>19765171
I mean, there's tons of stuff written in Latin, both classical and postclassical. I'd think if you combine that with available audio and video input it should do pretty well. Especially if you're mainly interested in reading.

>> No.19765651

>>19765184
>The bald autist
lmao

>> No.19765666

>>19765184
That’s genuinely disappointing.

>> No.19765716

I wish Lingua Latina had IPA transcriptions

>> No.19765721

I am learning Latin solely to be able to read the Vulgate. I have no interest or intention to read Cicero, Caesar, or Virgil (not that there’s anything wrong with them), but I don’t want to waste time on stuff I have no interest in. I am at Ch.15 of LLPSI and I don’t know if I should just leave directly from here into the gospels or wait until I’m done the book then start. Anyone have any pointers?

>> No.19765726

>>19765721
Honestly you could probably just jump into the Vulgate right now. It's one of the easiest texts to read in Latin

>> No.19765728

>>19765716
There are too many pronunciations used for Latin.
You just have to pick one for yourself.

>> No.19765739

>>19765726
Do you think reading the vulgate would help with learning latin? I have no interest in the bible or christianity but would like to learn Cicero, Caesar and Virgil
Would the vulgate help me go beyond LLPSI or is the language too different?

>> No.19765756

>>19765726
If I wanted to brush up on grammar points that I run across, what are some good resources? I read that “An Introduction to Ecclesiastical Latin” by Nunn and “A Primer of Ecclesiastical Latin” by Collins are two good texts. Any preference if you know by chance?

>> No.19765788

Does anyone have a Proto-Indo-European dictionary?

>> No.19765812

there's no language learning thread so fuck it I'll ask here. I read a long time ago that when learning a language, you should start with just the grammar. study just the grammar rules for the first month, then start learning vocabulary and whatever else. is this true?

I have a lot of books on learning Russian, I have the pimsleur series, I don't know which way to go or which to start with.

>> No.19765818

>>19765721
Do both. If you're interested in the Gospels and have familiarity with the English versions, you can work your way through the Gospels by analogy to the English. At the same time, Familia Romana will continue to teach you the language in a nore formal way.

Also, keep in mind there is an LLPSI supplement reader "Epitome Historiae Sacrae," which is targeted for a student working on the latter half of Familia Romana, iirc.

>>19765739
It's still good practice.

>> No.19765839

>>19765239
He's the fucking worst

>> No.19765843

>>19765257
I'm talking in the early stages before you can read any real literature. If you cannot get significant input in that first 3-6 months, you are not getting anywhere in a language.

>> No.19765847

>>19765666
Yeah I was shocked when I found out. Catholics basically use Latin for decoration. It has no real significance anymore and that's why the Pope was so comfortable axing the Latin Mass.

>> No.19765860

>>19765756
Get the primer
>>19765728
There's two. Classical and Ecclesiastical. Everything else is just lazy people applying their own native language's phonology just so they don't have to be uncomfortable for 12 seconds while reading aloud.
>>19765739
It's the best practice you can get. Read the Vulgate then read the classical translation of the Bible by Sebastian Castellion. It's written in the style of Cicero. You can move on the classical version after the Vulgate and easily learn Ciceronian style by reading the same verses basically paraphrased with slightly different grammar and vocab.
>>19765788
Amazon

>> No.19765867

>>19765818
>Epitome Historae Sacrae

It’s kind of weird I’ve never seen this mentioned in any of the classic languages thread before. Looks cool. I’m doing the other complementary texts for Familia Romana and am trying to figure out where to proceed once I’m done.

>> No.19765868

>>19765860
>There's two. Classical and Ecclesiastical.
No there isn't. There's the third that I encounter most: mix classical and ecclesiastical.
C always as /k/, V as /w/. Vowel lengths of classical. But no nasals.

>> No.19765872

>>19765868
So basically what I said

>> No.19765884

>>19765867
You should be reading Colloquia Personarum & Fabulae Syrae concurrently they match each FR chapter. After most people say do Sermones Romani, then Epitome Historiae Sacrae. Then after that it's really up to you, but I would do the Vulgate before trying Caesar.

>> No.19765886

>>19765872
It's not laziness, no. It's a combination of ignorance and inability.

>> No.19765890

>>19765886
Either way, that's not an official pronunciation system that you learn in a book. That's a person's personal habits you are hearing in YouTube videos. You said there were too many systems, there's 2. Just because dumb people don't follow them doesn't mean there's more than 2. And that's not what the dude was asking for.

>> No.19765895

>>19765890
>That's a person's personal habits you are hearing in YouTube videos.
That's the one I used in college.
That's the one most people I know use. Nasals are ugly.

>> No.19765900

>>19765895
Nobody cares about little things like that. I would hardly call that a completely seperate system. Most textbooks just teach you basic vowels and consonants.

Nobody gives a fuck about nasal labial fricative vibrato uvular long vowel poetic meter aspirated shit

>> No.19765908

>>19765900
>I would hardly call that a completely seperate system.
Are you high? Imagine French without nasals.

>Nobody gives a fuck about nasal labial fricative vibrato uvular long vowel poetic meter aspirated shit
You do if you give a shit about classical pronunciation.

>> No.19765920
File: 173 KB, 720x1063, Screenshot_20220117-233754_Brave.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
19765920

>>19765860
Castellion looks like a great suggestion. It would be great if there was a file that had his translation laid out side by side with the Vulgate to compare.

>> No.19765927

Which edition of the vulgate should I buy?
Should I get a latin only edition with notes/annotations to help read it or should I get one with an english translation on one side? Also which vulgate translation would be the most literal to use along with the vulgate?
I'm worried having it be bilingual would make me lazy

>> No.19765938

>>19765920
Put these side by side
>https://la.wikisource.org/wiki/Biblia_Sacra_interprete_Sebastiano_Castellione
>https://la.wikisource.org/wiki/Vulgata_Clementina

The Castellion page above is an incomplete transcription but the complete PDF is here. Difficult to read if you are unfamiliar with medieval/renaissance calligraphy.
https://archive.org/details/bibliasacraexseb01cast

I'm not aware of any printed transcription other than the one I posted.
Good luck my friend!

>> No.19765943

>>19765927
Clementine Vulgate, mono-language. No English.

>> No.19765944

>>19765812
No, better to start with vocab first. Ideally and best both together.
If you had to pick one or the other vocab will get you farther. Knowing how to parse verbs and decline nouns is nice, knowing the words for 'water' and 'help' is much more useful

>> No.19765955

>>19765867
wheelock's reader is a good introduction for beginners and intermediate

>> No.19765963

>>19765955
I have it but haven't read it yet. I've heard it's easier than Roma Aeterna

>> No.19765965

>>19765927
Nestle-Aland has a bilingual New Testament in Latin and Ancient Greek, no English. Good if you want to sharpen both.

>> No.19765980

>>19765963
Just give it a shot. you don't have to finish the textbook yet, just open up and do a sight reading. It won't hurt to try something above your current level.
In college my professors would often do just that, give unfamiliar texts or open books to random pages and have us read - either aloud in Latin or translated into English on the spot. It's a good exercise and will help apply the rules you are learning even if you don't understand everything.

>> No.19765987

HEXAGLOT BIBLE
>https://archive.org/details/hexaglotbiblecom01rich
>https://archive.org/details/hexaglotbiblecom02rich
>https://archive.org/details/hexaglotbiblecom03rich
>https://archive.org/details/hexaglotbiblecom04rich
>https://archive.org/details/hexaglotbiblecom05rich
>https://archive.org/details/hexaglotbiblecom06rich

Posting this for those who aren't in the D*scord server. It's a 6 language Bible edition.

Old Testament in Hebrew, Latin, German, English, and French. New Testament in Greek, Syriac, English, German, Latin, & French.

>> No.19766040

>>19765884
Yeah I’m reading Colloquia and Fabulae Syrae alongside Familia Romana and also doing the workbook. Though I’m very comfortable with the readings I’m having trouble with some of the finer grammatical points, and that concerns me because I want to be able to write in Latin as well as read it. My tentative plan right now is to do Wheelock’s after Familia Romana but before Roma Aeterna.

>>19765955
That’s my hope. People seem to talk about how stuffy Wheelock’s is, but I figure that if I do it after having already worked through an elementary textbook it shouldn’t take too long. Also my general approach to proficiency in any field is to hammer the basics over and over until they’re second nature before moving on.

>> No.19766063

>>19766040
You can do Wheelock's at the same time. that's what I'm doing right now. Also ignore those people who shit on Wheelock. Most of them are Redditors who've used it for like 1 week in Catholic school and now they hate it.

>> No.19766136

>>19766040
>stuffy
I learned from Wheelock's and never felt this. People shit on it to be contrarian. It was the standard textbook in universities for decades.
If you want to glance through a stuffy Latin textbook see Gildersleeve. Wheelock's is one of the least pretentious and most accessible textbooks available. LLPSI might be better for students in the long run but i feel it would be better to work through both side-by-side.

>> No.19766163

>>19765716
The orthography is phonemic, you just have to learn the correspondences. Alternately use a video course like Lingua Latina Comprensibilis.

>> No.19766169

>>19765721
If it's the Bible you're interested why not learn Hebrew and Greek, which are the languages it was actually written in?
>>19765812
No, that's stupid.

>> No.19766171

I have now finished the third chapter of Roma Aeterna. Virgil really makes Uylsses seem like a piece of shit, leaving behind some poor bastard in the cave of the Cyclops.

I still have to use the dictionary a few times per page. Especially for weird idomatic shit like
>Hic Aeneas genitorem Anchisn amisit, ille enim confectus aetate e vita excessit — nequiquam ex tantis periculis ereptus

I initially read amissit as 'sent away', but upon looking it up, it can also mean 'to lose by death'. On the whole, I managed to get the sense of 'he died of old age, despite escaping so many dangers' without trying to translate word for word. Which I guess is the point, but it feels imprecise.

>> No.19766176

>>19765843
I'd think the available comprehensible input, while not massive, may be enough to get you started to the point of being able to read literature.
>>19765860
>There's two. Classical and Ecclesiastical. Everything else is just lazy people applying their own native language's phonology just so they don't have to be uncomfortable for 12 seconds while reading aloud.
But Ecclesiastical is literally just what you described but as done by Italians. It's just one of the traditional national pronunciations, in the old days everyone used one.

>> No.19766185

>>19766176
I was just trying to humor that Eurofags that insist on using Italian Phonology.

>> No.19766190

>>19766185
What's wrong with using traditional pronunciations in general?

>> No.19766273

>>19766190
If you want to use Erasmian pronunciation for Greek or Ecclesiastical for Latin you can. I just prefer to pronounce Latin like Latin and not like something else manufactured later.

>> No.19766275

>>19766273
What if you pronounce it in actual late Roman pronunciation, which sounded in many ways closer to Romance? It's probably what some of the authors you're reading would have spoken themselves.

>> No.19766328

>>19766275
Late Latin didn't deviate that much my man. Most of the early changes were vowel's shortening, "U"s turning into "O"s, and final consonants disappearing. You have to go well into the middle age to get the drastic Consonant changes. The V losing it's "w" sound was relatively early on, but everything else on the consonant side was much later.

>> No.19766349

>>19766328
I thought C and G also palatalized fairly early on. For that matter though, couldn't you legitimately read it in modern Romance reflexes? That's essentially what Chinese people do with Old Chinese.

>> No.19766386

I don't like how flat Latin is and how the vowels sound
It sounds like an evil language

>> No.19766438

>>19766386
Well it makes sense. The Romans were pretty evil

>> No.19766500

I recently (within the last 2 years) discovered the online latin learning community which was outside the normal 'I want to learn latin to read the vulgate' christian crowd and it introduced me to the concept of LLSPI and I decided that I was going to start learning latin as soon as I reached my language goals with another language
I was aware that people learnt latin before this, I even had two friends who said they knew latin, one to the extent where they did professional translations of minor texts and I thought that was cool
Since having decided to learn latin however I've come across two things, the first was Mary Beards comment about latin and how most people cannot read latin even professional academics and two my friend admitting to me that they can't just sight read latin and that they have a lot of problems with vocab + grammar
Is this what I should expect? Is Latin really so insanely difficult that nobody can actually learn it?
I find it hard to believe that the difficulty these latin readers are facing is due to the approach that they made in learning the language (like wheelock's latin)

>> No.19766521

Does anyone know of some good monlingual Latin definition dictionaries?

>> No.19766529

>>19766500
Latin isn't that hard, honestly. I would say Russian or maybe even German is harder. It's just that people go about learning it in an outdated fashion, memorizing declensions and verb tables and so on. They don't realize you can go beyond the school translation method of locating the verb, identifying the case and shit. You can forget about that after a point and just read the language naturally without translating in your head.

>> No.19766531

>>19766386
I don't see how you can consider it flat. If you differentiate between the long and short vowels, doubled and single consonants and use elision it gives its rhythm a vigorous shuffle. Also, the rolling r, the open and closed e and o, and the nasalization among others are interesting and pleasant features of its phonological texture.

>> No.19766535

>>19766500
No, the way it's commonly taught really is bad, because it's teaching about the language rather than actually teaching the language. Plenty of people come out speaking equally or more complex languages fluently, like Polish.

>> No.19766568

>>19766349
Another anon here. No problem with that. In Greece, they teach ancient Greek with modern pronunciation, but, as a result, they lose the rhythm in poetry since they are not respecting vowel length and alliteration due to the change of how certain consonants.

Same can be done with Latin with a French or Spanish or Italian pronunciation, the last two being somewhat closer to the original.

In the end, you can be autistic with sticking to how it sounded under the reign of Caesar or Augustus but it will not be impressive unless you cleanse any trace of your native tongue's sounds.

An example would be an American classics professor using the 5th ce BC Attic pronunciation but still sounding like a burger vs a Greek using a modern pronunciation. The first makes the ear bleed whereas the second is pleasant.

A final example of someone using the classical Latin pronunciation but still sounding like a burger
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BMfnw6oBq9w&t=70s

>> No.19766570

>>19766568
What part of his speech sounds american?
I assume his vowels are fine if he's using the classical pronunciation?

>> No.19766576

>>19766521
https://latin-dict.github.io/list_monolingual.html

>> No.19766593

>>19766529
>>19766535
What's your opinion on why people still defend the grammar/translation approach and claim that it works when it results in people having to suffer through latin texts?
Online there seems to be a war waged over this

>> No.19766596

>>19766593
They're probably just stuck in their ways. There are also people who think "whole language/say and see" is a good way to teach reading.

>> No.19766603

>>19766593
I guess because it's a convenient way to grade people and structure a university course around, even if it's an ultimately ineffectual way to learn.

>> No.19766604

>>19766593
People defend grammar not translation. Translation is a task you do with the language, not a teaching method.

>> No.19766606

>>19766570
Some of his vowels use American English phonemes. A common example is pronouncing the 3rd person singular perfect ending -it as the the English word "it" instead of, to use an approximation, as the English word eat or the French I (eee).

>> No.19766613

>>19766604
I think by grammar/translation they mean the approach of "translating" by analytically breaking down a sentence and then "converting" it into English.

>> No.19766614

>>19766593
Not that guy, but my take is that it is ground in the philosophy of Latin not being a spoken language anymore and being only useful for reading ancient literature, so it shouldn't be taught as a natural language, parallely developing all linguistic skills. It's also easier for the professors. They can just have you doing grammatical exercises and translations, which is far easier to teach than Latin composition or let alone oral expression. Because of this philosophy, those skills died in the academia, so professors aren't even able to teach them anymore, since they themselves aren't capable of it, so they spread this mindest of pure grammar to their students

>> No.19766621

>>19766614
But it's not how it was taught for most of the time it was a 'dead' language.

>> No.19766623

>>19766613
If I were to try to get into these people's heads, I would think they believe you don't need to speak the language because it's "dead" therefore it cannot be read from beginning to end like a living language without a dictionary because it's not worth committing thousands of words to memory like if you were to learn Spanish or French. To sight read, you do need a working vocabulary and most teachers can barely get kids to learn the 500 words in Wheelock by heart.


This is not my position, I'm trying to guess what their view is.

>> No.19766625

>>19766623
Have they never heard of Anki?

>> No.19766628

>>19766625
I guess you didn't read the part of the post where I said "this is not my position"

You fuckin monkey

>> No.19766629

>>19766621
Of course, the decay is relatively recent I guess

>> No.19766635

>>19766621
>>19766621
Do you think that a 7th grade teacher in Iowa gives a fuck how some monk learned Latin in a monastery in 1432? You and I might, but they don't.

>> No.19766637

>>19766625
Hey man sorry I snapped at you, I misread your post. I'm very tired and grumpy. I thought it said "you" not "they". Have a blessed day.

>> No.19766643

>>19766635
I mean, they hopefully at least care about what works.
>>19766637
I still think it's a shame educators haven't taken advantage of things like spaced repetition systems.

>> No.19766646

>>19766635
I think they would personally unless I'm hopelessly ignorant about how latin is taught in the US

>> No.19766652

>>19766643
I think this is part of the problem. I think you guys are out of touch with the current mood in academia. Maybe it's just an American thing like >>19766646 says, but no people who teach Latin in the United States are not trying to get kids to read real Latin literature. Here it's an elitist thing where rich people want their kids to get higher SAT scores and basically just learn root words. I'm not joking, Latin is in a very bad place here. Princeton University removed the requirement for Latin or Greek to get a Classics degree.

>> No.19766661
File: 918 KB, 498x498, the dance behind the slaughter.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
19766661

>>19731543
>'how do I write a letter to my best friend's parents to tell them how he died?'
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

>> No.19766663

>>19766652
No Latin and Greek for a classics degree. That's just perfect.

>> No.19766671

>>19766500
>Is this what I should expect? Is Latin really so insanely difficult that nobody can actually learn it?
It's more due to teaching via passive means instead of actively.
During the Medieval and Renaissance periods, teaching Latin was a means to end: communicating in Latin, by speaking and writing in Latin. With the surge of the Vernacular, this drive to use Latin actively dropped off and it became like an artifact that is studied underneath a microscope.
A contemporary classics professor of ours, Christophe Rico, says that the best way to internalize grammar and vocabulary is by actually using it and not by memorizing the rules and identifying it within a text so you can translate it properly. You need to get rid of that intermediary barrier of your native language so you can read texts like native.

>> No.19766672

>>19766663
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/06/princeton-greek-latin-requirement/619136/

>> No.19766674

>>19766652
>Princeton University removed the requirement for Latin or Greek to get a Classics degree.
lmao

>> No.19766680

>>19766652
>>19766663
>>19766674

From this article: >>19766672
>The classicist I spoke with is more optimistic. Those who do not take Latin and Greek would, he supposes, be from the minority of undergraduates with niche interests relatively remote from Latin or Greek grammar. “We have students who are using computational and CGI modeling of ancient Greek architecture,” he told me. “We want those students to be in classics.”

LMAO

>> No.19766685

>>19726632
Does anyone know whether Prof. Padilla Perslta's recent monograph is any good?

>> No.19766687

>>19766680
Maybe the only good reason to take classics is the opportunity to learn the classical languages. You remove the languages, you take the heart and soul out of the degree. I mean, it's like wanting to study math without studying calculus. It seems like a coordinated effort to just kill the subject all together.

>> No.19766691

>>19766687
Basically from skimming the article it's a combination of lowering the bar to attract more students who are too lazy to learn a language and an invasion of STEM to make the humanities more STEM-friendly for nerds who want to make fantasy videogames.

>> No.19766697

>>19765987
dankey shoon

>> No.19766700
File: 67 KB, 720x631, 1640814560858.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
19766700

>>19766697
>dankey shoon
You are welcome friendo, good luck with your studies.

>> No.19766707

I put down my uni degree for Mech eng+ classics. Not really sure if doing Classics is worth it, my main aim from it is just to get the historical processes down so I can figure it out effectively on my own but is that even worth it? I'd be spending an extra year in uni for it.

>> No.19766711

>>19766707
You are already in university and spending a fuckton of money just do what interests you. I wouldn't recommend it for someone who hasn't enrolled yet and has zero interest in being a professor or an author.

>> No.19766713

>>19766687
It's a haute bourgeois psyop

>> No.19766735

>>19766711
I do have future aspirations of writing history but I'm not quite in yet, I've got a month to get in and an entire year decide since I don't do any classes until my 2nd year. I feel like I could learn this stuff on my own but I'm not sure where I would get my footing anyway. I'd really rather not spend the extra year but I do want to know this stuff.

>> No.19766850

>classical language general
>no one can speak a classical language
4chan intelligence in summary.

>> No.19766860

>>19766850
Sucka meum dickum

>> No.19766898

>>19766850
tuum commentarium atrum afflictatne me

>> No.19766916

>>19766898
Your comment didn't bother me at all?

>> No.19766924

>>19766916
your mean comment doesn't bother me
or that's at least what i tried to say.

>> No.19766939

>>19750454
I believe he's referring to Israel.

>> No.19766942

>>19766939
Isn't modern Hebrew kind of different from Biblical Hebrew, though?

>> No.19766946

>>19766924
>afflictat

Right, present tense

>> No.19767089
File: 90 KB, 1420x946, 69dd4f6bea4966df9c8d167c03c8c909b3-13-wojak-00.2x.h473.w710.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
19767089

>>19748860
>when you go back to a text you struggled with after some months and can read it with ease.
that's the real feeling right there

>> No.19767100

>>19767089
>when your 5 hour speech convinces the patricians to crucify someone because he is a threat to Rome's stability

You don't know what's really good

>> No.19767148

>>19750454
Google Tamil

>> No.19767217

>>19767148
Spoken Tamil is not the same language as Classical Tamil by any sensible definition. It's changed substantially. Tamil Nadu is a state where educated people learn a classical language (which their own happens to be descended from) as a second language.

>> No.19767272

>>19766593
There's not anything wrong with grammar-translation to teach except if it excludes reading large amounts of Latin. My experience in school was that when we got to real Latin texts, we'd slowly work our way through, one sentence at a time, struggling to decipher it word by word into English. Needless to say we made very little progress. In AP Latin Virgil, he only got through a fraction of Book I. Looking back, I don't think that the G-T exercises were a waste of time, but you need to also at some point early on begin reading through large quantities of Latin qua Latin.

>> No.19767285

>>19767272
Aren't the grammar translation exercises redundant given comprehensible input?

>> No.19767306

>>19767272
In every other language course besides those for classical languages, it is continually stresses that the tendency to translate in your head should be avoided as much as possible. With Latin and Greek it is the opposite. They are drilling you to constantly translate. It seems like a backwards, misguided way to actually learn a language. Instead of learning to think in Latin and how to use it, you are actively sabotaging yourself, training your brain to switch all input you receive into English creating an obstacle between yourself and the pure, intuitive grasp of the target language itself. Sure, there's room for translation exercises, but making them the focal point of learning a language is ridiculous. Judging by the level of literacy and usage of classical languages, it wasn't the best approach to say the least

>> No.19767320

>>19766500
big problem others haven't touched is that the power of the tongue is such that the prose of one author can be so alien compared to another that you can soon find yourself in difficulties even if you have mastered the other, there is a huge gap between how you can speak it in terms of daily matters and perhaps master it to the point of being fluent, and then e.g reading the Annales of Tacitus
this is something I read others complain about and experienced personally, how Latin's true difficulty kicks in specifically in the syntax of extant authors, and how it can feel like you are reading hermetic works even if you are just reading some historical prose, compared to e.g Greek which while more difficult grammatically and such, doesn't have as much ridiculous syntax in extant authors
>reads Vulgate
>great let's try Caesar
>wtf is this language
>*powers through Caesar*
>ok, let's try Sallust
>wtf is this language
>*makes it through Sallust*
>nothing can stop me now, how about ye, Tacitus
>wtf is this language

>> No.19767336

>>19767320
Yeah, sometimes starting a new author feels like learning the language all over again. Getting really good at Cicero is no guarantee of being able to read Tacitus and so on. To me it's a good thing because it keeps the language fresh and challenging, but it is a shock at first when you try a new author and get your ass kicked by how hard it is. But the longer you stick with a specific author, the easier he becomes. When I first tried reading Livy I could never imagine being able to read him smoothly like I could the easier prose authors, but now I can comfortably read him

>> No.19767337

>>19767320
That's because most of us are reading Lingua Latina but are pretending to be Latin scholars

>> No.19767348

>>19767320
Greek is not more difficult grammatically. More forms to learn but that makes it easier to read. Latin dumps everything into the subjunctive leading to confusing and vague subordinate clauses within subordinate clauses.
>Latin's true difficulty kicks in specifically in the syntax of extant authors
This is true and what makes the language so special. It is also why reading a lot is so necessary to attain a good grasp. At first reading bits and pieces and chunks from here and there will improve one's overall Latin more than powering through an entire work.

>> No.19767573

>>19767285
No, I don't think they're redundant. They teach something different. Translating from Latin to English is a different skill. I think it would be okay if you start out with a Wheelock-like text where you get a broad overview of the grammar, memorize the tables, etc. as long as at some point you begin reading Latin. The problem is when you are never made to read much Latin, and you are taught to read a Latin text by puzzling it out piecemeal into English and then understanding the finished English translation.

>> No.19767649

>>19767337
You should be reading Wheelock's.

>> No.19768282

biggus bumpus

>> No.19768298

>>19768282
hoc filum revivescat

>> No.19768314

>>19767148
how come nobody ever conquered the tamil kings?

>> No.19768399

>>19768298
Cum nullum superstites.

>> No.19768402

>>19768399
vir personatus...

>> No.19768492
File: 2.86 MB, 635x270, vMzxjL.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
19768492

>Ebrios amicos plerumque claudebat et subito nocte leones et leopardos et ursos exarmatos inmittebat, ita ut expergefacti in cubiculo eodem leones, ursos, pardos cum luce vel, quod est gravius, nocte invenirent, ex quo plerique exanimati sunt

The absolute madlad

>> No.19768775

What are good resources for learning Gothic? Books, online, anything works.
I already plan on buying Ulfilas' bible.

>> No.19768933

>>19761339
Why? Just because the grammar is codified and fixed doesn't mean people cannot speak it as a mother tongue. Or is a boy who was raised speaking Latin today not going to have Latin as his mother tongue?

>> No.19768973

Congratulations on your week long thread

>> No.19769013

>>19768973
Discede meretrix

>> No.19769985

I know I'm bumping a near bump-limit thread but I just started to get some doubts about the reconstructed vowel quality
this wiktionary page https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Latin_pronunciation has the 100BC vowel quality of e and o as almost always [e] and [o] for both short and long vowels, but seeing other sources I'm getting something else, e.g https://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Latin/Grammar/Latin-Pronunciation-Syllable-Accent.html indicates that the 100BC vowel quality is supposed to be open, [ɛ] and [ɔ] and Luke Ranieri also reports this, so which one is right?

>> No.19770365

Fuck bros, I can't stop translating in my head even when I try desperately not to
I'm never going to make it

>> No.19770571

>>19768775
Try Lexilogos and Lexicity.

>> No.19770582

>>19768933
My point is that if it's continuously transmitted as a mother tongue through all that time it will change, even if the formal standard that people learn remains the same. If someone is a native speaker of Classical Sanskrit, it is a revival, because the continuous transmissions of Sanskrit to the modern day through a chain of native speakers are the Indo-Aryan languages.

>> No.19771281

New
>>19771277

>> No.19771547
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19771547

>>19769013