/sffg/ - Science Fiction and Fantasy General

[Anonymous No.19708373]

Knights at the Shore edition

Previous Thread:>>19698982

>Recommended reading charts (Look here before asking for vague recs)
https://mega.nz/folder/kj5hWI6J#0cyw0-ZdvZKOJW3fPI6RfQ

>Archive
>>>>/lit/?task=search2&search_subject=sffg

>Goodreads
https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/1029811-sffg

>A link to the ultimate colossal science fiction and fantasy collection torrent
>>>/t/1023504

>Discord
Never going to be created.

[Anonymous No.19708378]

Read Cradle!

[Anonymous No.19708380]

King Bakker

[Anonymous No.19708387]

>>19708368
does it trouble you?

[Anonymous No.19708494]

>>19708373
>chinkshits
>bakkerfags
>sandersnoys
>mfw

[Anonymous No.19708513]

>>19708494
me on the left

[Anonymous No.19708570]

Give opinions on Count to the Eschaton Sequence Series and Ginger Star

[Anonymous No.19708588]

Read S. Craig Zahler's Western novels. They're basically grimderp with guns minus the nihilism though they are still very edgy.

[Anonymous No.19708640]

Is mother of learning cringe or based?

[Anonymous No.19708667]

>>19708640
Gamification elemnts automatically knock it down 10 points.

[Anonymous No.19708681]

>>19708588
zahler is a dweeb. bone tomahawk was alright until the schlocky eli roth gore.

brawl in cell block 99 is embarrassing power fantasy. vince vaughn as a stone faced violence master?

dragged across concrete's dialogue is so overwrought that i couldn't stomach more than 10 minutes.

[Anonymous No.19708693]

Kino

[Anonymous No.19708703]

>>19708693
Read it anons

[Anonymous No.19708706]

>>19708681
>zahler is a dweeb. bone tomahawk was alright until the schlocky eli roth gore.
>brawl in cell block 99 is embarrassing power fantasy. vince vaughn as a stone faced violence master?
>dragged across concrete's dialogue is so overwrought that i couldn't stomach more than 10 minutes.

[Anonymous No.19708710]

>book begins with a prologue where a character is fighting some orc-like creatures

[Anonymous No.19708727]

>>19708706
this is an anonymous website. you don't need to post your picture.

[Anonymous No.19708755]

>>19708667
Does that make it a 90/100?

[Anonymous No.19708779]

Trying to remember a book that was written by a British fantasy writer that I think was fairly popular for a fantasy work of his
The book was actually a series of books (4 or 5 cant remember) about either a racist or an anti-semite who was in love with the byzantine empire

that's all i remember

[Anonymous No.19708857]

Wish authors stopped doing that meme "female protagonist" shit, nobody actually enjoys reading this besides those that lie to virtue signal.

[Anonymous No.19708867]

>>19708494
>>19708706
>>19708710
who are you quoting?

[Anonymous No.19708882]

books for this feel?

[Anonymous No.19708961]

>>19708882
holes

[Anonymous No.19709045]

>>19708882
Mask of the Sorcerer

[Anonymous No.19709058]

>>19708882
what do they eat

[Anonymous No.19709074]

What are the best books with female protagonists?

[Anonymous No.19709075]

>>19656504
What's the title of the second one?

[Anonymous No.19709105]

/sffg/ has been hollowed out and replaced with randomly generated text.

[Anonymous No.19709120]

>>19709105
>randomly
generateSffgPost() {
return "books for this feel";
}

[Anonymous No.19709128]

>>19709074
The Hunger Games
The Handmaid's Tale
The novelisation of Star Wars: The Last Jedi

[Anonymous No.19709158]

Since the thread's dead at the moment and outer /lit/ is shit could I get some gritty crime fiction recs?

[Anonymous No.19709179]

Any books about sex with orc women?

[Anonymous No.19709193]

why BOTNS has no artworks? no wiki (the one there is doesn't count), nothing. anyone know a fansite?

[Anonymous No.19709194]

>>19708857
Speaking of shitty female protagonists, Birthgrave is kinda interesting. It's about a sort of feminine inversion of Kugel with space Jew powers. Just the foulest, life wreckingest roastie imaginable. Rare example of a credible heroine's journey.

My sole regret is the best Goodreads reviews are from men expecting a Brando-sando protagonist.

[Anonymous No.19709231]

>>19709193
if a fantasy book has no fandom wiki, its not a good book

[Anonymous No.19709233]

>>19709194
>female Cugel
This is definitely going on the list

[Anonymous No.19709242]

>>19708779
Byzantium Endures from the Pyat Quartet by Michael Moorcock?

[Anonymous No.19709278]

>>19709233
Unfortunately the prose isn't as tight or fanciful as Vance. Good characters though.

[Anonymous No.19709293]

I read a short story by Tanith Lee that was decent, but that's as far as I go for female writers. Short stories only.

[Anonymous No.19709493]

[Anonymous No.19709510]

>>19709193

Folio Society has some artwork for it. Someone's been building a 3D model of the Citadel/Nessus. The Japanese book covers for BOTNS are incredible- but I agree, there's a serious lack of BOTNS artwork and it should be rectified.

[Anonymous No.19709520]

>>19708867
either this is a very poor troll or someone is really new. i can't tell the difference anymore. does that mean it's a good troll? nah, it's the state of this site.

[Anonymous No.19709575]

What's the longest running GOOD /sffg/ series?

[Anonymous No.19709587]

Any good Star Trek books?

[Anonymous No.19709595]

This was a great book. I'm blown away. The action scenes were great, the magic is cool. I don't really care about the magic though. For me, it was the characters and story. I give it a 4.5/5. It would have been a 5 for me, but I felt that the pacing fell off after Kelsier's final showdown. This really is probably the best scene with the book and emotions during and after were flowing for me. However, the whole showdown with the Lord Ruler was just awful pacing I felt. Vin meets him, goes to the dungeon, goes out of the dungeon, goes back in the dungeon. It just dragged on a bit. I was disappointed how convenient it was with Marsh having returning as Frankenstein and making the inquisitors so trivial after Kelsier spent the entire book being able to overcome just one of them. I also felt that Marsh's death had meaning on Kelsier's character arc. While I'm sure the lore will explain it in a sequel, I just thought him being his normal self as this inquisitor was really strange. I thought this was going to be Vin's heroic moment and then Marsh of all people sort of stole the thunder. Also, I was screaming out loud when she was in the throne room for her to do something with her earring. I kept wondering if it was made out of a secret metal or something. Sanderson kept mentioning it but I suppose it's only purpose served to make us think about rules of flesh and metal relating to allomancy. I really was hoping it would have something more important. I thought for sure she would swallow it's stud on the back. Then this leads me to my largest issue with the book. If the Lord Ruler has been burnt and flayed, how did he keep the bracelets attached? Surely one of the previous rebellions that captured him would have figured it out by accident by ripping them off. Did I miss something? Finally, I knew that the replacement government would likely lead to a bad government to replace The Final Empire, but holy shit couldn't they have been more clever than putting a king on the throne? I liked Elend, I think he and Vin are good for eachother, but how the fuck does everyone else assume he's a good man for ruling an oppressed peasant mob that his family ruthlessly slaughtered for generations? Just because he read some philosophy books? I honestly thought this book, which I believe has inspiration from Dune, was going to have Kelsier go the Paul Atreides path. I still think the sequel is going to shape up like Dune Messiah in a way with political aftermath and consequences. But I just expected something different and less insulting to the reader than putting Lord Venture on the throne.

[Anonymous No.19709616]

>>19709595
What's with the fucking blog posting?
Are you a woman who has to talk for half an hour when somebody just asks what time it is? Kys

[Anonymous No.19709671]

Just finished the foundation trilogy

Are the sequels/prequels worth a read or am I just going to spoil my experience with the trilogy by reading them?

[Anonymous No.19709820]

>>19709671
sequels aren't worth it but if you are really invested in the series you should read them to see how things turn out. the prequels however are really good, especially the second one is fantastic.

[Anonymous No.19709875]

bakkerbros...

[Anonymous No.19709916]

>>19709158
Night Dogs by Kent Anderson? I've not actually read it. It's the second book in a series but the first book is about the Vietnam war (Sympathy for the Devil)

[Anonymous No.19709931]

>>19708693
I do enjoy hairy pusy kino

[Anonymous No.19709937]

>>19708779
The Domination of Draka perhaps?

[Anonymous No.19709967]

>>19709193
Too hard for most people to read so smaller group of drawfags

[Anonymous No.19710006]

>>19709595
Sadly The Final Empire is Sandersnoy's best work. There's a neat bit of mystery solving in the next two books, as Vin (mostly) learns more truth about the Lord Ruler, the enemies that still remain, and the four magic systems. Book 3 is a lot better when some of the payoffs that 2 starts setting up for, although I hate the ending of the trilogy and book 2 by itself is pretty shit.

[Anonymous No.19710018]

>>19709820
I mean, is there more of a story to tell but in the sequels? second foundation kind of implied the plan is back on course with no more issues of concern

[Anonymous No.19710055]

>>19709193
>why BOTNS has no artworks?
Part of the books aesthetic is that the world is one way, but described by the characters another as to evoke the past rather than the future in the reader. It isn't a huge plot-twist, but a subtle aesthetic misdirect that is difficult to represent visually. A literalist rendering of the setting loses some of what makes the setting so enchanting.

[Anonymous No.19710165]

>>19709058
cum

[Anonymous No.19710166]

>>19710018
well you might be disappointed if you think the sequels will be about the plan. the plan is thrown out the window in the sequels and the story goes in a whole other direction (which sucks) also the sequels follow one main character primarily and doesn't have time skips and whole societies as focus points. this was asimovs return to the series after like 30 years and he just fucked the whole thing up. i mean its still decent but I was very frustrated with the direction of the story. prequels redeem it however since its all about seldon and his plan.

[Anonymous No.19710227]

>>19709595

[Anonymous No.19710354]

>>19710227
What forum is this? Been wanting to find an alternative to /lit/ ever since finding out that people here genuinly do not read

[Anonymous No.19710358]

>>19710354
Brandon Sanderson's fan forum.

[Anonymous No.19710393]

>>19710018
The story was wrapped up in the original trilogy. The sequels and prequels were only written for money and public demand, and it shows. He no longer as anything to say, andvturns it into gay second rate pulp, retroactively ruining the original trilogy with some marvel universe bullshit trying to make all his stories share the same universe.
Ok stories if you ignore the Foundation relation though

[Anonymous No.19710394]

>>19710166
hmm ok, is it at least enjoyable in the story and characters it presents?

[Anonymous No.19710410]

>>19710358
>Brandon Sanderson's fan forum.
I wonder if they know about Guenon?

[Anonymous No.19710423]

>>19710394
yes the character is good. the story could be more enjoyable if you read the robot novels beforehand, he makes plenty of lot of references to that

[Anonymous No.19710432]

I really enjoy eternal damnation/hell type stuff. I finished this recently and its good. Anything similar?

> A young man descends into Purgatory to save his wife and unborn child in this gorgeous, illustrated tale of wonder and terror from the mind of master storyteller and acclaimed artist Brom

[Anonymous No.19710454]

>>19710432
Wayne Barlow, God's Demon

[Anonymous No.19710483]

if sanders is not soi then why is women protagonist? checkmate sanderstards

[Anonymous No.19710485]

>>19710483
>why is women protagonist?
He wants to sell books.

[Anonymous No.19710500]

>>19709875
A site I order my obscure books from lists all of the books for an average of €20 each. Maybe I should get them just in case.
Kind of hate those covers tho.

[Anonymous No.19710510]

>>19709875
They all out of print now?

[Anonymous No.19710532]

>>19709193
there's artwork out there, it's just kinda scattered

Urth is an incredibly different world, but to Severian it's the norm so things we would find alien and bizarre are normal for him and vice versa-it's best to try and picture it yourself, most artwork wouldn't do the series justice anyways

[Anonymous No.19710639]

Recommend me some scifi that has a main or major character little girl in it but isn’t some Loli Sue character bullshit. Preferably prepubescent

[Anonymous No.19710645]

>>19708588
Sounds fun, where do I start?

[Anonymous No.19710714]

>>19710454
>Wayne Barlow, God's Demon

Looks like exactly what I was trying to find, thanks a lot

[Anonymous No.19710787]

>>19710006
I dunno, I think Warbreaker is better due to it not being a videogamey power fantasy.

[Anonymous No.19710885]

>>19709242
yeah thanks

[Anonymous No.19710896]

>>19709937
>The Domination of Draka
whats that?
is it good?

[Anonymous No.19710944]

why do all authors who put tolkienish elves and dwarves in their universes continue to call them elves and dwarves but when they add a race that is basically 1 to 1 copy of orcs, they create an original name for them

[Anonymous No.19711031]

>>19710944
name 3 examples. only real books, eragon doesn't count

[Anonymous No.19711192]

>>19711031
pozzed books don't count too

[Anonymous No.19711211]

>reading lyonesse
>turn to page 201
>first 200 pages drop out in one big chunk
This is really, really good. Especially I'm really liking how satisfying it is when the character predominently being followed is replaced by the next character, because the torch is passed super smoothly. Most of the time. Sometimes there's a clunk that changes the perspective, but not often.

[Anonymous No.19711238]

>>19711211
I like big loads dropping on my face in one big chunk, so satisfying

[Anonymous No.19711284]

>>19710500
They're just dust jackets. The inner fabric bound hardcovers are quite nice. I'm kicking myself for leaving my copy in my dorm's free bin after I first finished it years ago.

[Anonymous No.19711309]

>>19710227
None of these are actually issues

[Anonymous No.19711338]

[Anonymous No.19711375]

So many sci-fi books are getting released every day, and none of them is good, or at least so few that it's almost impossible to find something worth reading. The Silo trilogy was nice, the Bobiverse was pretty entertaining, Blindsight and Echopraxia were excellent. But that concludes the list of modern sci-fi books I really enjoyed in the past 10 years. It's tragic.

[Anonymous No.19711385]

>None of these are actually issues

[Anonymous No.19711409]

>>19710410
Do you really expect the normies and shitlibs to read someone as mind breaking as Guenon?

[Anonymous No.19711415]

>>19711309
They are if you have a working assumption that Brandysandy is a great writer.

[Anonymous No.19711512]

Anyone have a PKD reading order chart?

[Anonymous No.19711531]

So where do I go after going through all of Tolkien? Looking for something fleshed out and 'complete'. High fantasy. Dense lore that doesn't handhold too often. Wouldn't mind for it to get more philosophical.

[Anonymous No.19711542]

>>19711531
ah fuck here we go again

[Anonymous No.19711546]

>>19708588
checked and based Zahler fan. You should read his /sffg/ novel, Corpus Chrome Inc. tons of PKD vibes

[Anonymous No.19711548]

>>19710227
I found a use for his books.

[Anonymous No.19711559]

>>19711512
my favorites are Do Androids Dream, A Scanner Darkly, and the final boss which is VALIS

[Anonymous No.19711563]

>>19711531
>>19711542
>Wouldn't mind for it to get more philosophical.
Bakker

[Anonymous No.19711587]

>>19711563
There's little to no philosophy in Bakker's works.

[Anonymous No.19711653]

>>19711531
To suggest something with less nihilism, tactical gay rape, black cum oozing tentacle rape, and prescient eugenic cuckoldry:

The Dragonbone chair and its sequel series The Last King of Osten Ard are the Fantasy series that comes closest to the charm of LotR for me. It is not heavy in philosophy, although the greatest knight Camaris has a few interesting things to say about the equivalent of Christianity later.

It is less high magical than PoN, there are elves and a few monsters, but overall the level of magic is close to or below that of middle earth in the Third Age.

[Anonymous No.19711668]

>>19711653
pozzed and unbased, you should be ashamed
>>19711531
go with Bakker if you want something philosophical, supreme prose and deluxe philosophy.

[Anonymous No.19711671]

>>19711587

[Anonymous No.19711698]

im reading the book of the new sun and am enjoying it a lot
are the other parts of the solar cycle worth reading?

[Anonymous No.19711727]

>>19711559
Thanks fren

[Anonymous No.19711807]

>>19711587
Unironically this.

[Anonymous No.19711845]

>>19711512
>>19711559
i've only read ubik by him, liked it very much. it's well written, i thought sci fi writers were shit at that

[Anonymous No.19711873]

Thanks for the bakker rec guys. Looks interesting.

[Anonymous No.19711896]

Anyone read Islington? Found him by accident and quite enjoyed his trilogy. His world building is pretty top tier imo.

[Anonymous No.19711897]

>>19709595
>>19710006
>>19710227
So were the braclets a plothole? How did he survive previous rebellions having been tortured, flayed, and burnt alive yet his metal braclets were never taken off? This is a plothole to me.
Also should I skip Pool of Ascension and go on to Way of Kings?

[Anonymous No.19711900]

>>19711896
No, not really.

[Anonymous No.19711902]

>>19711873
Damn straight looks interesting, curved member supreme

[Anonymous No.19711907]

>>19711897
The Stormlight Archive is shit. Why would you read the same bad author twice in a row?

[Anonymous No.19711913]

>>19711897
>women protag
>pozzed author
skip

[Anonymous No.19711935]

>>19711907
>>19711913
That's nice in and all but HOW DID THE LORD RULER SURVIVE for 1000 YEARS? He said he's been flayed, burnt, imprisoned, ect... and NOBODY thought to take off these metal bracers on his arms until Vin?

[Anonymous No.19711937]

>>19711897
>Sanderson

[Anonymous No.19711941]

>>19711935
Not my problem your willingly read shit fantasy.

[Anonymous No.19711994]

>YOU READ SANDERSHIT!

[Anonymous No.19712006]

>>19711375
>when you realize Blindsight was published in 2006
I thought it was really recent, like five years tops.

[Anonymous No.19712012]

is empire of the vampire any good?

[Anonymous No.19712039]

>>19711531
Tekumel. It's rather weird and probably better known for the roleplaying game that came out of it, but author was as obsessive and in-depth world builder as Tolkien was.

[Anonymous No.19712042]

>>19712012
pozzed and unbased

[Anonymous No.19712046]

Been looking at public domain entrants today, these seem to be the four notable scifi fantasy works to go public this year

[Anonymous No.19712050]

>>19710639
Neal Stephenson, The Diamond Age?

[Anonymous No.19712072]

King

[Anonymous No.19712081]

>>19711897
I've looked everywhere. Google searched and reddit posts have come up asking my same exact question. Seems like Sanderson fans just cope and won't admit it's a mistake. A BIG mistake. Makes me not want to read another one of his books.

[Anonymous No.19712083]

>>19712081
sanderson's fans OWNED
Bakker fans WINNING

[Anonymous No.19712105]

If sanderson so smart, why bracelet didn't come off when 1000 years passed?

[Anonymous No.19712110]

>>19712105
If you were flaying someone alive, would you not take off their vain jewelry? If he was burnt to the bone, walked out, and healed... how did the bracer stay on?

[Anonymous No.19712114]

>>19712110
sandershits COPE
Bakkerchads LAUGH

[Anonymous No.19712125]

he carries the weight of the world on his ARMS

hold on for this mega twist

[Anonymous No.19712130]

flay someone, why not take off vain jewelry
burnt to the bon while walking, why would bracer stay?

[Anonymous No.19712229]

[Anonymous No.19712232]

>>19712125
he's so unattractive

[Anonymous No.19712234]

>>19712229
This is probably the worst book he ever wrote.

[Anonymous No.19712241]

>>19712234
how could it be even worse than the third one where NOTHING happened until the last 10% of the book

[Anonymous No.19712246]

>>19712229

[Anonymous No.19712253]

>>19712241
and the book was MASSIVE too

[Anonymous No.19712257]

>>19709595
There are some follow ups to some of the thingbs you've pointed out here in the following books. Not sure how much I want to spoil, but I specifically remember Marsh and the Earring thing are developed, but I don't really remember when
Though what other anons said still stands: The first book is the best in the series, book 2 I didn't find as bad as people here made it out but it is the worst, and book 3 is ok.

[Anonymous No.19712258]

[Anonymous No.19712262]

I dont trust authors who don't make it with their first novel

[Anonymous No.19712267]

>>19711698
Urth is something of a slog but Long Sun is nearly as good as the tetraology. Read Short Sun if you really, really liked the Long Sun.

[Anonymous No.19712279]

>>19711375
I respect Blindsight. It has everything that makes me want to hate it: the fanbase, self-publishing, potentially-embarrassing thematic/story elements, some glaring flaws in the writing, etc. That all said, it's hard to find any recent sci fi that matches up, and I really think that despite all appearances his heart was in the right place. Same with Ted Chiang (and even Greg Egan China Mieville although they're much more uneven)

[Anonymous No.19712299]

>>19712257
So it explains how Lord Ruler didn't lose the bracers previously or not?

[Anonymous No.19712320]

>>19712299
I have no idea because I didn't even realize this was a plothole until now. I read through the three books in like a week, so maybe I just didn't have time to process this as a mistake, but it might be explainable as a result of the specifics of how some of the powers work. Or it's just propaganda.

[Anonymous No.19712361]

god slave collars are so fucking hot
I love it when authors write rape scenes and they use enchanted collars that make the slaves feel ecstasy beyond human comprehension and mind breaks them

[Anonymous No.19712382]

What are some good techno thrillers? I think with the right setting they can verge on sci-fi. I'm not averse to Crichton, but sometimes his characters (every man is Chad and every woman is Stacy) are boring.

[Anonymous No.19712387]

Martial World has been such a level of advancement above IET novels. I wonder how long the author keeps up the tempo.

[Anonymous No.19712399]

>>19711375
read the radix tetrad, you goon

[Anonymous No.19712406]

>>19712361
I love it too. There's just something so extremely arousing about a female bending to carnal pleasures.

[Anonymous No.19712460]

>>19712387
IET is terrible, I really don't get it why his are so popular. Not even the case of just not liking them, there are books that I didn't like but objectively they were good or even excelent but IET is objectively terrible.

[Anonymous No.19712485]

>>19712258
this but replace Bakker with black cock and sanderson with white dick

[Anonymous No.19712491]

>>19710645
He's only written two Western novels so you can start with either. Wraiths of the Broken Land is closer to what you might enjoy as a fantasy reader though since it starts as a rescue mission to save some women and ends with a siege at a fort in ruins.

[Anonymous No.19712503]

>>19708378
Is it good?

[Anonymous No.19712510]

>>19711546
I will at some point since I plan on reading all of Zahler's novels (only this and Hug Chickenpenny to go).

[Anonymous No.19712532]

>>19712229
>actually told aspiring writers to NOT write short stories
Yea there's no 'money' in writing short stories like there used to be, but it's the equivalent of an actor telling aspiring actors they should only star in Hollywood blockbusters.

[Anonymous No.19712534]

>>19709916
I probably won't read this, but I appreciate the suggestion nonetheless.

[Anonymous No.19712554]

>>19712503
No, it is progressive.

[Anonymous No.19712555]

>>19712510
nice anon, yeah I love Zahler. last year I read Mean Business, The Slanted Gutter, Congregation of Jackals and Corpus. Did you like Congregation or Wraiths of the Broken Land more? I own Wraiths but still gotta read it. I'm not the biggest fan of western-themed stuff but Congregation was very good. His modern day crime stuff (Slanted Gutter, Mean Business) are my favorite though.

[Anonymous No.19712580]

>>19712503
Yes
>>19712554
It's progression not progressive. No gays or black people in sight.

[Anonymous No.19712631]

>>19712555
>Did you like Congregation or Wraiths of the Broken Land more?
I liked Congregation more, but Wraiths is still good. Reading Wraiths kinda felt like I was reading a very edgy David Gemmell fantasy novel though which was nice.

[Anonymous No.19712644]

>>19712555
>>19712631
I had to take a break though from reading Wraiths after reading Mean Business and Slanted Gutter back to back since after reading a couple of chapters of Wraiths I knew instantly almost all of these characters would be dead by the end and I couldn't handle anymore of that right then kek

[Anonymous No.19712662]

I liked End of Eternity immensely. Books with similar cosmic sense of importance? Preferably with better characters than Asimov.

[Anonymous No.19712678]

>>19711845
Yeah I've only read a scanner darkly but I really enjoyed it. I'll try Ubik next

[Anonymous No.19712704]

1. Your mother language.
2. Do you read sff in your mother language, or translations?

[Anonymous No.19712731]

>>19712704
1. Russian
2. The only fantasy i read in russian in the last 10 years is my friend's book it was alright

[Anonymous No.19712739]

>>19712580
But plenty of strong women and shitty women subplots
Wouldn't be surprised if gays and blacks get introduced in the next book

[Anonymous No.19712796]

>>19712491
I wanted to read a western novel anyway, no fantasy needed. What's the other title?
Thanks for the rec, btw.

[Anonymous No.19712806]

>>19712491
>>19712796
Forget what I asked, should have read until the end of the thread

[Anonymous No.19713025]

>>19712796
>>19712806
Based.

[Anonymous No.19713038]

>/wot/ finally died
bros...

[Anonymous No.19713049]

>>19713038
And what is that?

[Anonymous No.19713158]

>>19712796
>I wanted to read a western novel anyway,
>no fantasy needed
Why are you here

[Anonymous No.19713208]

Currently reading Dracula, about half-way through
Bram really needed an editor to tell his ass to stop repeatedly describing the same shit over and over again.
That and the endless shower of platitudes the characters give each other.

What I expected:
>Book about Dracula, his scary shit, and his conflict with Van Helsing and the others
What I got:
>A bunch of dudes in a room circlejerking each other and trying to make as little progress in the plot as possible

[Anonymous No.19713237]

>>19713208
1897 dude

[Anonymous No.19713249]

>>19713237
Not an excuse
Frankenstein didnt have these problems and nor do other books from the same time or earlier

[Anonymous No.19713252]

>>19713158
>Why are you here
Because I also like reading fantasy and sci-fi, what do you think?

[Anonymous No.19713261]

Am I reading too much Black Library if I’m dreaming about Orkz being mind controlled by the Imperium for slave labour in some mines?

[Anonymous No.19713269]

>>19713261
No, you're not reading enough if the Orkz are allowed to live, even as slaves, in your dreams

[Anonymous No.19713275]

I'm reading Dune for the first time, and although the story has kept me entertained, the prose is has disappointed me.

[Anonymous No.19713291]

>>19713208
>>19713249
I should clarify that the platitudes are expected of books for the time, its just way more glaring and annoying in Dracula since the pace is glacial and Bram keeps repeating himself the same shit over and over again.
Beating a dead horse like he was getting payed by the word.

[Anonymous No.19713310]

>>19712267
>Read Short Sun if you really, really liked the Long Sun
Short Sun rounds out Long Sun. I'd say pass on Short only if you didn't like Long

[Anonymous No.19713526]

>tfw tolkien is literally the only fantasy worth reading

[Anonymous No.19713535]

>>19713526
If you have shit taste, probably.

[Anonymous No.19713601]

>>19712046
Reminder that the Statute of Anne is the only valid copyright.

[Anonymous No.19713607]

>Tolkien Le Good
Tolkien has so little depth that I sometime don't know if you guys are baiting or not when you praise him.

[Anonymous No.19713613]

>>19712485
This but replace your penis with a gaping wound

[Anonymous No.19713627]

>>19713526
>straight old white dude is the only fantasy worth reading
That's a yikes from me, chud. Try reading some Jemesin before embarrassing yourself further.

[Anonymous No.19713645]

>>19713607
>little depth
Are you fucking retarded?

[Anonymous No.19713660]

Recommendations for sci-fi (or fantasy if, by surprise, you know of any) with a lot of bureaucracy/red tape in it? It's always my jam when you have important people forced to fill out appropriate paperwork before they can save the world.

[Anonymous No.19713689]

>>19713645
Not that guy, but his characters are cardboard cutouts. None of them ever do anything surprising except maybe Saruman, and even then only briefly.
>but world building
Piling shit you made up on top of other shit you also made up. Add soft magic and it's impossible to contradict yourself.

[Anonymous No.19713741]

>>19713689
Sir, you're needed in the cringe department

[Anonymous No.19713756]

>>19711587
Yeah, this is true. The basic conceits and conflicts in the series are obviously informed by Bakker's philosophical hobby horse, and of course this can help spawn discussion, but at the end of the day it is first and foremost an above-average epic fantasy series and everything else takes a backseat to this. If you want Bakker's "thesis" in fictional form you are better off reading Neuropath.

[Anonymous No.19713776]

Post charts

[Anonymous No.19713800]

>>19713310
didn't mean to kill you from le cringe, friend

[Anonymous No.19713835]

>>19712241
>where NOTHING happened until the last 10% of the book
This is all his books. He really is the new Robert Jordan.

[Anonymous No.19713907]

>>19713208
Yeah, not to mention all the time characters spend autistically filling out their diaries with ord for word transcriptions of van helsings latest senile rants, then reading those diaries to each other, transcribing one guys audio diaries into normal diaries, and finally all sitting and writing diaries together like they need to sync their fucking blogs before the action starts.
There is a point where the epistolary form just needs to give way to a normal novel, and Dracula began beyond that point.

[Anonymous No.19713927]

>>19713776
Why? They're in the OP.

[Anonymous No.19713930]

>>19713776

[Anonymous No.19713932]

>>19713660
I didn't like Control. I was very disappointed m

[Anonymous No.19713943]

Another Fine Myth by Robert Asprin

[Anonymous No.19713951]

>>19713660
>>19713932
damn really? I got it on this recent Steam sale and I think it's great. my recommendations: any China Miéville - The City and the City is a good start as it deals with a government organization that sits between two "cities". Vandermeer's second book of the Southern Reach trilogy - Authority - fits the bill pretty good too. it's about an organization that deals in "weird" stuff. pic related, watch this movie too if you haven't

[Anonymous No.19714032]

>>19711375
Not impressed with the last bob verse or two. Publication rate has dropped off a cliff. The worse thing you can do to a good series is give it success. Authors need the struggle to survive to produce worth wile work or they get lazy and a big head witch makes the output shit.

[Anonymous No.19714053]

>>19708882
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Question

[Anonymous No.19714084]

>>19713526
based
i do still unironically love le guin, wolfe and bakker but it's true they don't come close to the professor

[Anonymous No.19714097]

>>19713689
>le... edgy grey morality
>le... hard magic system
either pic related or just brain rotten from years of modern television, vidya, gurm and sandershit

[Anonymous No.19714178]

>>19708373
>>19713917
I've thought about doing something like this for SFF for some time now, but no one would read them, let alone discuss.

[Anonymous No.19714189]

>>19713526
Why is this the case? Seriously what was Tolkien's secret.

[Anonymous No.19714205]

Why on earth would I ever want to read poorly-written cucktrash westashit novels when I could read poorly-written, but fun eastern webnovels?

[Anonymous No.19714211]

>>19708378
I was gonna read the first book because someone told me it had heavy daoist type themes but I dropped it as soon as it became clear that it was YA trash.

[Anonymous No.19714221]

>>19708703
You have peaked my interest

[Anonymous No.19714249]

>>19713776

[Anonymous No.19714252]

>>19714189
growing up at a time before the globohomo and mass-mechanized soulless modernity, when european myths still felt alive in the land. a deep love and immersion in the engliish countryside and its elven mein. being a giga-autist in terms of linguistic and mythological research. having profound war trauma but also being a hopeless romantic and having (as he himself called it) a whimsical and childlike soul.

every author that's worth their salt puts their life into their work and tolkien had a strong soul and a unique life. that's as much as i can figure it

[Anonymous No.19714264]

>>19714097
Who said anything about edgy? Good characters are moved by forces in their heads which they don't fully understand, and are only obvious to outsiders in retrospect. Tolkien doesn't have good characters. He has archetypes who always behave predictably. The only agent in his books is the world, and the world isn't held to any kind of discipline.

Read The King of Elfland's Daugter and see if you can tell the difference.

[Anonymous No.19714287]

>>19714252
>and mass-mechanized soulless modernity
The world Tolkien grew up in was already mass-mechanised. I don't think it would even be too much of a stretch to suggest that Middle Earth is a product of post-mechanised/enlightened society. Pre-enlightened man has no use for the mythic quality of Middle Earth because his reality is already mythic

[Anonymous No.19714299]

>>19714249
This picture gave me cerebral palsy

[Anonymous No.19714350]

>>19714264
>Good characters are moved by forces in their heads which they don't fully understand, and are only obvious to outsiders in retrospect.
A dull platitude thrown around in writer's workshops no doubt.

Tolkien's characters are archetypal, he is working with a kind of literature that existed prior to the modern novel as his base. He isn't writing a work of psychological realism, but one of mythic resonance. If you can't understand that different forms of literature require different approaches to achieve different ends then your understanding of literature will forever remain incomplete.

[Anonymous No.19714353]

>>19714249
Battlefield Earth is actually incredibly comfy pulp. It gets a bad rap.

[Anonymous No.19714470]

>>19709671
Why is he painting shitty fake Instagram photos?

[Anonymous No.19714471]

>>19714350
>He isn't writing a work of psychological realism, but one of mythic resonance.
>mythic resonance
You mean like Achilles and Agamemnon or Loki? Those are totally rational mythic archetypes. Have you ever considered the possibility that you're an obtuse cunt who likes boring stuff?

[Anonymous No.19714502]

>>19714353
I boycott Hubbard along with anyone who does not also boycott Hubbard.

I will make an exception to my no book burning morals for him, that man should be erased from history.

[Anonymous No.19714513]

>>19713158
Would you really trust outer /lit/ with non-fiction recommendations?

[Anonymous No.19714533]

I read Book of the New Sun, would I like Bakker? Wolfe was a Christian while Bakker seems to be an antichristian?

[Anonymous No.19714598]

I read Colour of Magic and really liked it. Now I'm trying Equal Rites and for some reason it isn't doing it for me. Does it get better?

[Anonymous No.19714607]

>>19714533
Try the first book - the Darkness that Comes Before - and see if you like it. Wolfe was a Christian but his work has heretical elements; Bakker seems like a heckin fedora atheist on the surface, but he's really a struggling agnostic and it's possible to come away from the series Christpilled. Both writers' works are heavily inflected by the Bible and the Church.

[Anonymous No.19714609]

>>19714598
Equal Rites is widely regarded as the worst of the first ~30 Discworld books

[Anonymous No.19714636]

I haven't read Bakker but surely he can't be more anti-Christian than Cornwell

[Anonymous No.19714678]

Just bought an ebook of REH's published boxing stories. How based is that?

[Anonymous No.19714682]

>>19712279
I'm the exact same boat with Mieville. Just don't look up the author. His novels are basically the go-to recommendation to all the people who want different fantasy.

[Anonymous No.19714698]

>>19714598
The earliest few books are kind of rough. Try Feet of Clay or Guards Guards! before deciding to drop or continue the series.

[Anonymous No.19714799]

I read the charts and selected the books on pic related.
What you guys think I should definitely read? And what definitely NOT read?

[Anonymous No.19714822]

>>19712704
1. Portuguese
2. Not if I'm able to, but there are exceptions (I read The Foundation novels in Portuguese as it's what I had access too, am about to read a fantasy written in portuguese. There might have been other instances where I could only find the book in portuguese to buy, but I'm not sure as I usually avoid it)

[Anonymous No.19714832]

>>19713943
was forgettable.

[Anonymous No.19714840]

>>19714799
Not a good chart, very weird mix of /lit/ esque hipster takes and reddit esque mainstream takes. Where is this from?

[Anonymous No.19714864]

Halfway through the Two Towers and I'm just bored. Anyone else get this way with LotR?

[Anonymous No.19714869]

>>19714864
When it comes to the Lord of the Rings the word is "dry."

[Anonymous No.19714876]

What's the best zombie book you've ever read, SFFG?

[Anonymous No.19714897]

>>19714876
I hate zombies.

[Anonymous No.19714900]

>>19714869
Dumb question but is the Silmarillian better?

[Anonymous No.19714909]

>>19714840
>>19708373
the mega link
>fantasy flowchart.jpg
>fantasy flowchart.png
there's pic related too, same name from my pic and I'm asking the same questions, what to:
>definitely read?
>definitely NOT read?

[Anonymous No.19714914]

>>19714900
It would probably filter you if you found TTT boring, but the Silmarillion is fucking awesome desu.

[Anonymous No.19714926]

>>19714914
>filter
Oh so it's bad. Got it.

[Anonymous No.19714945]

why is everyone in this thread such a contrarian asshole
you literally read books about wizards and robots and shit

[Anonymous No.19714960]

>>19711845
Three Stigmata was really good imo, if you haven't tried it give it a shot

[Anonymous No.19714963]

>>19709193

[Anonymous No.19714995]

>>19714945
>omg if your personal tastes differ from NPR's list of scifi and fantasy you're CONTRARIAN
>also contrarianism is the world's greatest sin next to racism and sexism

[Anonymous No.19715006]

>>19713660

The Laundry Files is essentially if you had a government agency that treated filing budget reports with the same importance as fighting Cthulhu

[Anonymous No.19715032]

>>19714926
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLH5seMZKVk

[Anonymous No.19715047]

Is there something like Black Company but less ANCIENT EVIL AWAKENING and more comfy merc contracts putting down peasant revolts and helping kinglets with their retarded territorial disputes?
The first chapter was a lot of fun, I enjoyed the aesthetic of a shit job and deciding whether to try and stick it out or stick the employer and fuck off.

[Anonymous No.19715060]

>>19710532
Nice, I must have missed that subtle hint from gene wolfe that old pervert

[Anonymous No.19715090]

>>19715060
benis?

[Anonymous No.19715155]

>>19715032
I remember hearing this when I was 14 and reading the Silmarillion for the first time. Impossibly based.

[Anonymous No.19715175]

>>19715090
Would explain why Agia was so batshit

[Anonymous No.19715194]

>>19715047

If you don't need it to be fantasy, Hammer's Slammers is exactly what you're looking for.

[Anonymous No.19715206]

>>19715194
I read a bit of it and it was cool, though they were very short short stories and there seemed to be no recurring characters.
I don't think I finished it though, so maybe I'll give it another shot.

[Anonymous No.19715348]

>>19713607
Are... are you fucking insane?

[Anonymous No.19715351]

>>19715175
that has more to do with her being not only a brother fucker but, more importantly, a poor

[Anonymous No.19715358]

>>19714945

[Anonymous No.19715381]

I think Wolfe may have spoiled this genre for me. His work is so layered and dense and has an effect-the best way to put it is a lingering kind of thinking, a sort of mental marinade that sets in after you've read/analyzed. I don't know how people can speedread Wolfe or finish his books in a matter of a day/week, there's just so much and even a thorough read leaves you missing pieces

even if what you read might not have the most exciting plot or action, it's so incredibly rewarding

[Anonymous No.19715389]

>>19715381
>Nigger helped invent Pringles

Neat

[Anonymous No.19715419]

1. The LotR movies
2. The Hobbit book
3. The Hobbit cartoon
4. The LotR cartoon
5. The Hobbit movies
6. The LotR books

[Anonymous No.19715454]

>>19714832
Thanks for your useless hot take

[Anonymous No.19715461]

>>19714876
World War Z

[Anonymous No.19715469]

>>19712382
Delta-V by Daniel Suarez is pretty much a techno-thriller... but it suffers from the same problem of every character being either Gigachad or Gigastacy

[Anonymous No.19715542]

>>19712382
The Hunt for Red October could maybe kind of be milSF, with the Russian sub being a super secret prototype with a new kind of engine. I think The Cardinal of the Kremlin is about space lasers, but by the time I was reading that it was too obvious to me it was just alphabet agency propaganda.

[Anonymous No.19715599]

>>19715006
Laundry files is pozzed af

[Anonymous No.19715657]

>>19713645
No, but you are apparently.

[Anonymous No.19715662]

>>19713645
>Le flawless nobleman mary sue.

[Anonymous No.19715664]

>>19714350
Unironically cope.

There were plenty of writers who wrote better characters way before Tolkien.

Even the bible has better archetypes.

[Anonymous No.19715697]

>>19715657
>>19715662
>>19715664
Le Butthurt samefag retard

[Anonymous No.19715700]

When did this place turn into /v/?

[Anonymous No.19715708]

>>19715700
When it got filled with underage edgelords posting their favorite fucking metal album and talking about how based it is.

[Anonymous No.19715715]

>>19715697
Take your copium pills. No one like Sanderson. It's shit, just like Tolkien is.

[Anonymous No.19715726]

>>19715715
Exactly. Claiming that world building equates to depth is the reason why we have so many shit writers like Sando and Tolkien.

[Anonymous No.19715734]

Imagine having filler in your own novel.

[Anonymous No.19715741]

>Well yes, I love Berserk, how could you tell?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gd9OhYroLN0

[Anonymous No.19715745]

Please explain what's so bad about Sanderson.

[Anonymous No.19715747]

>>19715745
Gee, I don't know. You tell me.

[Anonymous No.19715758]

>>19715745
Sorry, but you need to be 18 to post here.

[Anonymous No.19715761]

Cringe and bluepilled:
>tolkien is comfy epic fantasy just all like of his descendents
"Based" and "redpilled":
>tolkien was misunderstood and copied by shallow hacks
Based and redpilled:
>tolkien was a shallow hack too

[Anonymous No.19715765]

>>19715381
Is there anything that comes close to BOTNS in terms of prose?

[Anonymous No.19715767]

>>19715765
Yes.

[Anonymous No.19715823]

>>19715747
Spren are such a poorly executed ides, rather than get a line describing Talik being wide eyed but barely suppressing a grin we have to read about him farting yellow sparkles.

My deep bafflement at Sandersnoys popularity only grows with time.

[Anonymous No.19715831]

>>19715747
>>19715758
>Cherry picking

[Master Troll No.19715833]

Reply to this post with your top 5 favorite sci-fi novels or your mom will die in her sleep tonight

[Anonymous No.19715839]

>>19715469
Is there any other techno writer who doesn't go the Chad/Stacy route other than Neal Stephenson? I'm not a "progressive/representation" goon but the characters in Termination Shock for instance (the autistic Cherokee/African American pig hunter and drone mechanic, the Cyber Canadian Sikh Saint Soldier Stick Fighter, the rogue Texan Billionaire environmentalist who built the World's Biggest Gun) and found it easier to take an interest in characters who weren't so samey.

[Anonymous No.19715845]

>>19715747
>>19715758
i haven't read a lot of modern books but i think lots of them have this kind of prose. it's just different kind of literature, for a particular audience

[Anonymous No.19715853]

>>19715831
Ah yes, "Le cherry-picking". More cherries here:
>>19711907
>>19710227

[Anonymous No.19715859]

>>19715845
>i haven't read a lot of modern books
Stopped reading there.

[Anonymous No.19715861]

>>19715747
Sanderson uses a massive learning algorithm to rehash like 4 short stories he wrote during his time at college

[Anonymous No.19715865]

>>19715845
Well, read more.

[Anonymous No.19715872]

>>19715823
Sanderson is a perfect fit for SJW's and men-children.
It's the cape-shit of books.

[Anonymous No.19715881]

>>19715872
So is the meta joke just that Rick does what is essentially magic, but handwaves it with a lab coat and beaker and calls it science? Are the writers making the show to laugh at fans or am I thinking too much?

[Anonymous No.19715899]

>>19715881
>Are the writers making the show to laugh at fans or am I thinking too much?
I got the impression that the show is a satire on how lefties see the world.

[Anonymous No.19715920]

What are some good books if I like DS9? Doesn't necessarily need to be scifi, I just like the themes (political, intelligence/intrigue, cross-cultural problems and dilemmas, interpersonal relationships, etc), complex characters (Gul Dukat, Elim Garak, Benjamin Sisko, Kira Nerys, Quark, Odo, etc) and character relationships (Odo/Quark, Garak/Bashir, Sisko/Dax, Dukat/Kira, etc), and the mix of themes (lightly dark, serious, comedy, adventure, intrigue, etc).

[Anonymous No.19715926]

>>19715899
Is the show self aware? I'm not into "pretending to be retarded" stuff, just curious. I do find the idea of lefties thinking of scientists as wizards in kany coats kinda funny though. I read a book by Carl Sagan once, Demon Haunted World, where he explicitly worried about this exact thing and despite being very left himself, specifically indicted social science and media science types as the pied pipers of the retarded and warned that if we don't gatekeep what we consider intelligent, we'll end up basically where we are now, where facts really don't matter and people go back to thinking of science as a religion. Some crazy prescience, must be hard being an intelligent person in a position like that, piercing the veil and knowing that you rode stop the highest peak humanity will ever see, and that it was all downhill.

[Anonymous No.19715930]

>>19715920
>cross-cultural problems and dilemmas
>interpersonal relationships
Kys

[Anonymous No.19715935]

>>19715930
>hates characters interacting and there being clash of cultures
Autistic liberal.

[Anonymous No.19715964]

>>19715920
I'd like to know too. I'm on season 4 of DS9 right now (first time watching the series) and it's pretty based. I'm a big TNG fan but I like how grounded and nuanced and political DS9. Dukat is the shit

[Anonymous No.19715968]

>>19715964
>season 4
It only gets better. I didn't think it could get better but it does. The weakest parts are the Worf parts, surprisingly, given that he was my favorite main cast character in TNG.

[Anonymous No.19716016]

I'm thinking of starting Malazan, Black Company or A Practical Guide to Evil. Can you guys give some quick rundowns as to what to expect from these? So far I've only read manga, light novels and chink web novels

[Anonymous No.19716019]

>>19712704
English since the translations are too often made by snobbish professors that spell and speak in a way nobody does.

[Anonymous No.19716021]

>>19715964
Startrek is liberal garbage, kill yourself

[Anonymous No.19716046]

I know I am far behind the publication, but Griffith is back and pushing back the Kushan out of Midland and everyone is worshipping him and it pisses me the fuck of because he's a piece of shit.

What's with the souls of the battle dead visiting him each night? I assume he's actually sending them to Hell or eating them?

[Anonymous No.19716067]

>>19715348
You were brainwashed since grade 5 to believe that Tolkien = good author.

>>19715419
Objectively true.

[Anonymous No.19716070]

>>19715767

[Anonymous No.19716075]

>>19714864
Everyone who has ever read it.

[Anonymous No.19716076]

>>19708373
Tezt

[Anonymous No.19716085]

>>19714864
Was the same for me. Reading Aragorn's side of the story was good, but then it switched back to Frodo and *yawn*

[Anonymous No.19716091]

>>19711897
Shallan's story in the WoK makes me want to kms but I have to admit it becomes significantly better in WoR and later.

Still, Kaladin and Dalinar themselves makes it worth bearing imo

[Anonymous No.19716105]

>>19716085
I ended up stopping. I realized if this book wasn't by Tolkein or set in Middle Earth I wouldn't be reading it, so why am I reading it?

[Anonymous No.19716114]

Anyone read the Drenai Saga by David Gemmel? Someone gave me a few books I'm not sure if they're worth my time.

[Anonymous No.19716116]

>>19716105
Once again, same for me.
Took me a while to learn that there are enough books out there to waste time on those I don't enjoy. Sadly, LotR was one of those.

[Anonymous No.19716388]

Holy shit, reading German translations fucks up everything in the text. The amount of deconstructions that the translator is forced to do is unreal, unlike French, Spanish or literally any other romance language.

[Anonymous No.19716392]

I used to enjoy Sanderson.
And then I found out about Bakker.

[Anonymous No.19716397]

I am reading the Wheel of Time while listening to In the Court of the Dragon by Trivium.

[Anonymous No.19716405]

>>19716016
Stop being a little bitch and decide for yourself.

[Anonymous No.19716411]

>>19716046
I need to read berserk one day.

[Anonymous No.19716415]

New thread
>>19716413

[Anonymous No.19716425]

>>19716114
Legend is like an 8/10, really good. I don't know about the rest but I've read some other books by Gemmell and they're all consistently good. He usually starts a little slowly and then the endings often wind up too fast.

[Anonymous No.19716440]

I finished the first two book in the Prince of Nothing series and I'm at the beginning of the third. At this point I have one question: Why did Bakker make every PoV character a cuckold?

Achamian is worst of all. To start of with, he's in love with a whore. And when she finally reciprocates, Kellhus mind controls her like any other NTR doujin. It is fucking painful to read.

Why everyone a cuck, Bakker, including the four digit IQ MC? WHAT DO YOU SEE?

[Anonymous No.19716450]

>>19716440
t.filtered.

[Anonymous No.19716476]

>>19716440
>Why did Bakker make every PoV character a cuckold?
Because he's a cuckold himself.

[Anonymous No.19716477]

>>19716440
>Why did Bakker make every PoV character a cuckold?
Because he's a BVLL.

[Anonymous No.19716530]

>>19716392
Why is everyone shilling this, isn’t it genuinely just gay smut?

[Anonymous No.19716539]

>>19716530
>Not knowing what G.R.I. is.
Hello newfag.

[Anonymous No.19716603]

>>19716530
If the new thread is any indication, it’s just a few anons samefagging.

[Anonymous No.19716683]

>>19716392
Unironically this.

[Anonymous No.19717083]

>>19713756
>>19711587
>>19711563

Neuropath is not the same philosophy as The Darkness That Comes Before. It's just epiphenomenalism and eliminative materialism as a horror story, put into a standard thriller/horror serial killer story. It uses a philosophy of mind with particularly disturbing implications to get a reaction, which I thought was very clever as far as that genre goes, although the characters and plot twists didn't live up to the big hits of the genre (e.g. Gone Girl).

The Darkness That Comes Before is determinism but not eliminative materialism really. It's all about the role of the soul. He goes as far as to make the afterlife and efficacy of salvation/damnation observable to the living to put aside the whole elimination of qualia thing from consideration.

The whole point of the Dunyain is not that they concluded that human behavior is highly determined, or that they discovered some rudimentary neuroscience, but that they want to overcome the "Quandary of Man," through the Absolute (which for Bakker seems informed by German Idealism, as the name suggests, as a sort of "truth is the whole" experience of the reality and the recognition of the world in the self and the other.)

The whole monologue of the Survivor in The Great Ordeal really gets at this, the distinction of the Absolute from just the laws of causality, how the Dunyain came to see it, but also a distinction from the anthropomorphic sky daddy the world-born see as God. Instead, the Absolute is immanent; it's zero, the ground from which all enumeration takes its basis.

The Head on a Pole scene has some good points on this in "what the God of Gods is not."

The ideas are pretty fresh and those parts are a step above for genre fiction as a whole.

The reason it is NOT a philosophical book is because scenes like this occupy like 3% of the story, which stretches over seven fairly long books. Most of the material is epic fantasy. Further distracting from those sections is all the grim dark ultraviolence. The characters aren't shaped to help illustrate the philosophical discussions that do happen; the most interesting ideas just get dumped as Kellhus's internal monologue or from the Survivor.

And I think people gloss over these anyhow because they tend to get buried in all the other stuff, as evidenced by the fact that the ending of TUC is semi-explained in them, but the reviews show no one really got it, and you can't blame them since at several thousand pages of mostly epic fantasy stuff, he's well outside the category of "do a close read."

The plot does some stuff with utilitarian ethics vs atrocity I guess. It is, all said, a better telling of the Golden Path than Dune in many respects, since the threat in Dune is never actually defined.

I love the series, but if anything it proves the opposite of what Bakker wanted it to do- that epic fantasy a pretty bad vehicle for ideas.

[Anonymous No.19717908]

>>19716440
Kellhus can't be cucked because he has no desire. And even from a non-robot spider person standpoint I think he only cucks others, never gets cucked.

But yeah, most of the other guys get cucked by the Dunyain eventually or butt fucked.