/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.19695626]

>LOTR generates tons of discussions and still serves as a prime example of how to write a fantasy epic. Scholars still talking about the themes and ideas of the book, and discussing the smallest of details
>Discworld, while not as prestigious, is still well regarded
>So is Narnia
>Most modern fantasy focuses around having fancy history-inspired settings with DEEP LORE that doesn't bring much to the table
>there probably are exceptions out there, but who knows where they are

What does modern Fantasy lacks to get more recognition amongst scholars or critics?

[Anonymous No.19695636]

>>19695626
OLD GOOD
NEW BAD

[Anonymous No.19695643]

>>19695626
that elf is remarkably unsexy

[Anonymous No.19695677]

>>19695626
LOTR is strikingly unlike modern fantasy. I reread it recently and it's amazing to me how thoroughly different it is from almost all fantasy that came after it, despite it being the reason most of that fantasy exists. It's astounding how many things modern fantasy does that LOTR doesn't do, and likewise how many things LOTR does that modern fantasy does not do.

[Anonymous No.19695685]

>>19695626
It's inferior CS Lewis

[Anonymous No.19695710]

>>19695643
I like my elves uncanny.

[Anonymous No.19695846]

>>19695626
It became commercial fiction much more so than literature. It is produced by people who consume only commercial Fantasy fiction and want to recreate what they consumed, generating a derivative product of a commercial product, something of an even inferior quality to the original, specially as the main problem is that these people don't read anything but commercial literature. The greatest works of Science-Fiction and Fantasy were written by people with an extensive knowledge of Philosophy, political theory, history, religion, art and a myriad of topics, like LotR and Dune, but the modern vestiges of these genres are done by entertainment driven manchildren who consumed it and understood nothing but the funzies of the wacky different alien world. They produce generations of increasingly derivative and empty, content-devoid works, as what they are doing is a merely commercial form of entertainment rather than pure literature.

[Anonymous No.19695941]

>>19695626
>Most modern fantasy focuses around having fancy history-inspired settings with DEEP LORE that doesn't bring much to the table
You just described LOTR

[Anonymous No.19695976]

>>19695677
you said a lot without saying anything. give two examples.

[Anonymous No.19696189]

>>19695626
I believe it is it's originally.

LOTR "is" the fantasy series which comes to most people's minds. It served as inspiration for D&D, and countless video games. It also isn't cheesy and has character development.

[Anonymous No.19696192]

>>19696189
sans the excessive apostrophe. Sorry!

[Anonymous No.19696201]

>>19695626
It lacks spiritual and moral relevance. And its extremely difficult to produce that in a fantasy world.

[Anonymous No.19696273]

>>19695846
This,
Modern fantasy is out of touch with the philosophic myth-like aspect of fantasy. The truth is fantasy is one of the oldest and most creative genres, but modern fantasy has become an echo chamber where the readers only read the same shit and have no breadth of taste other than Sanderson, Marvel, video games and Netflix. Most avid fantasy readers probably haven’t heard of Homer or Dante. It has become so bad that this does not only apply to the readers but also the writers I feel.

[Anonymous No.19696435]

>>19695846
>>19696273
Anon I think you are on point, after reading commercial stuff for about 2 years I am longing for quality instead of unending plotwists and characters doing dumb things to justify the plot. So recommend us good books that are really good!

[Anonymous No.19696675]

>>19695626
>>19695710
>not posting the best waifu

Anyway, modern literature in general doesn't get that much recognition. It's turf wars and faggot battles. History will sort things out eventually.

[Anonymous No.19696684]

>>19695846
There is value in genre.

[Anonymous No.19696704]

>>19696675
Viconia bored me, tsundere women who break as soon as they meet a Chad are trash tier. Aerie was a ditz. Jaheira was a fucking bitch and she starts banging you fifteen minutes after Khalid's death, which is weird, but I played Baldur's Gate 2 before 1 so I didn't even think of Khalid and just took Jaheira as the slightly bitchy, least annoying of the three options.

What I really wanted is that one Drow lady.

[Anonymous No.19696712]

>>19696684
Escapism is a hell of a tool in such a depressive time. Books are like heroin trip without the negatives effects. It can be a lifesaver.

[Anonymous No.19696727]

>>19695976
How about the sense of melancholy, the sense of despair?

The Lord of the Rings is a magical world whose magic is a fraction of what it used to be, and even that magic is going away from the world for good. The elves are leaving. The dwarves are a shadow of their old glory. Even the evil things, like the balrog or the Nazgul, are mere echoes of their power and terror in times of yore. Men have degraded so much that there are scarcely any Numenoreans in Gondor. The Ents are slowly dying away to nothing, and the forests are vanishing. What magic there is, in places like Rivendell or Lothlorien, is isolated and small, and even there, it's going to go away forever. Destroying the Ring will ENSURE that it goes away forever, because with the destruction of the One Ring the power of the Three Rings will be broken, and their ability to preserve and maintain the elves in Middle Earth will be gone.

Yet you never get this sense of melancholy, of loss, in modern fantasy. Modern fantasy is so frequently set in a vibrant, thriving fantasy world, where the elves and the dwarves and the halflings and everybody else are getting on just fine. But that melancholy, that despair, is what gives LOTR a lot of its power. The sense of loss, of passing away, hangs over the books. But it also gives them an innate goodness, because so many of the good characters are willing to accept that loss, to endure that passing away, if it means the chance to rid the world of Sauron. There's a heroism and a nobility to it. Modern fantasy doesn't really have that at all. It's just kind of a meaningless power trip and lore dump.

[Anonymous No.19696751]

>>19696727
Well said, anon

[Anonymous No.19696783]

>>19696727
its also worth noting the mythological origins of every race and culture, modern fantasy races and cultures are often inspired by tolkein's and dnd's aesthetics while tolkein's races and cultures are inspired by various european mythologies.

[Anonymous No.19696908]

>>19696684
Genre is a tool, but it can become a cage.

[Anonymous No.19698214]

>>19695626
>Scholars still talking about the themes and ideas of the book, and discussing the smallest of details
This is relatively recent. Tolkien was considered shit on release and only started gaining academic recognition in the 80s.
>there probably are exceptions out there, but who knows where they are
Try Mervyn Peake, John Crowley, David Linsday, Ursula Le Guin, Gene Wolfe, A. S. Byatt, Jorge Luis Borges, Marlon James, China Mieville, or R. Scott Bakker.

[Anonymouṡ No.19698645]

>>19696727
>The sense of loss, of passing away, hangs over the books.
Tolkien got that largely from Anglo-Saxon literature.

Not a huge amount of AS literature survives, but what there is is absolutely steeped in the idea of decay; that the world used to be better than it was, that people used to be better than they were, and former glories will never be recaptured.

[Anonymous No.19698649]

>>19698645
kek old tards whining on the chans about how the liberals are ruining the world and everything used to be golden in their childhood are in line with the mythological and literary history of the anglos

[Anonymous No.19699151]

>>19695626
Lord of the rings is 100 years old gramps. It's outdated and overrated. I just started mistborn and it's way better.

[Anonymous No.19699163]

>>19695626
Lack of courage on the writers' and/or the publisher's part. in/can/fem -cel culture is a weed that grows in the minds and fears of many, pre-conceived understanding of the reception limits the hands that are to write, and the minds and hearts that are to see.

[Anonymous No.19699931]

>>19695626
>discworld
literally never heard of this till the other day. Can someone redpill me on discworld?

[Anonymous No.19699933]

>>19698214
>This is relatively recent. Tolkien was considered shit on release and only started gaining academic recognition in the 80s.
sauce?

[Anonymous No.19699995]

>>19699933
>sauce?
Shippey's Author of the Century.

[Anonymous No.19700028]

>>19695626
Lotr and such were written as completely novel and are so good that everyone interested in fantasy ideas will be exposed to it. This means that future writers are constrained to the framework of old fantasy and can only make variations on the original story. For true innovation, you need to make something that isn't derivative in this way, so one needs to reject past ideas and create something unrecognizable, which is something I doubt most publishers would go for

[Anonymous No.19700030]

>>19699931
Lindsey Ellis is a huge fan. In the same vein of fart-sniffing fantastical feelygoods that Andy Weir's The Egg comes from.
From the time when people thought a creation good in proportion to the degree to which it acknowledges its own arbitrariness.

[Anonymous No.19700173]

>>19695626
>What does modern Fantasy lacks to get more recognition amongst scholars or critics?

I reflected on your answer and based on my experience having read newer stuff like Wheel of Time, watched shows like Game of Thrones, and Anime like Lodoss War, FMA... I have arrived to three answers.

1.) Little to no "Criticism of Life".

This is a concept developed by the poet Matthew Arnold. In, general, it basically talks about how Poetry or in a broader Stories in general serve as a means to teach people about life by instructing or inspiring them to be better persons. It should also teach us truths about life that can make us better people.

In short, LIFE EXPERIENCE outside of reading and writing is necessary to being able to create good stories. LOTR is a testament to this fact, being a culmination of all the experiences of its author along with all the truths and ideas Tolkien wished to convey to us.
How can modern Fantasy authors get any critical recognition, much less world-wide success if its writers only just superficially copy LOTR, DND and freakin' videogames? The Isekai subgenre is literally this.

They need to at least read books outside their genre, which I'm guessing they don't really do.

2. The absence of the Mythopoeic essence.

What really differentiates modern fantasy hacks from greats like Tolkien, Dunsany, Lovecraft, etc. is that they fundamentally lack the Mythopoeic nature required of their stories. This ties back to the fact that they only superficially understand Tolkien and his Legendarium. Fantasy and to an extent, Sci-fi is modern myth-making. Myths, although not historical/real, possess lessons, ideas, philosophies and timeless truths to them rather than just "Muh magic swords", "Muh big dragons", or "Muh power fantasy harem".

Having read the foundational fantasy of people like Dunsany, Tolkien, Le Guin, and Lovecraft, they have this "Mythical-like" quality to their work, like their trying to ground their work on older legends and stories rather than anything to do in the present day. Tolkien best captured and expressed this in his Silmarillion, which I believe every Fantasy/Sci-fi author really needs to read apart from just LOTR.

There's an almost ethereal quality to their works that I can describe and you really have this feeling that you're actually in the world of the story rather than just the shallow instant gratification you see nowadays.

On a side note, I noticed that older Fantasies have softer, more natural world-building to them, and don't a shit load of pages just to reveal its world to the reader. Names and briefer descriptions are greatly helpful in giving the learned reader a sense of how the place looks like. Which brings me to the final point.

3.) Aesthetics.
The Aesthetics of modern fantasy are abysmal. Its worthless and just awfully pathetic, like a rat's shit in a sewer puddle behind a Chinese restaurant. Modern Fantasy, starting with Robert Jordan and DND is so uninspired.

[Anonymous No.19700217]

>>19698214
>Looks up Marlon James
>Movement: Post-colonialism

How long do Africans intend to complain and write about Slavery? Its like they want to get rid of it but can't stop talking about it anyway. The Dark Star trilogy sounds promising though.

[Anonymous No.19700218]

>>19699995
looks good thank you!

[Anonymous No.19701078]

Thank you all for your answers. I hope my question wasn't too jarring, as I admit it really looked like bait. One could well indeed interpret as "OLD GOOD, NEW BAD", but it really wasn't. I try to look for good fantasy authors as I think the genre can express a lot of things some others can't, conveying ideas and concept with this sort of magical, mythological and poetic way of expression by portraying them as monsters, artefacts or other fantastical creatures.
I've been trying to write for a while, and I don't want to make just some distasteful rendition of a DnD campaign, but a tale of fantasy that.. You know, makes sense? Something that actually expresses something. There isn't an elf or a dragon here because it's cool (well it kind of is) but because there's a reason for them to be here, metaphorically speaking. And I think this Mythopoeia is the term I've been looking for. Building a world like it's an old myth, in a seemingly ancient, historical and poetic style. I'll look for all the authors you've mentionned, maybe besides the ones I already know of.
Once again, thank you. Fortune be on ye.

[Anonymous No.19702401]

>>19699931
>literally never heard of this till the other day. Can someone redpill me on discworld?
comedy-fantasy novels that become more dramatic over time. Most of the novels have a good balance, a dramatic story with lots of jokes. first few books are too silly, last few books are not silly enough. The author had an autistic tendency to worldbuild off of throwaway gags. I recommend reading "Mort" or "Guards Guards", and keep reading in any order if you like them.