Just finished this and need someone to talk about it with Discuss

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Anonymous Thu Dec 30 02:15:28 2021 No.19655917 [Reply] [Original]

Just finished this and need someone to talk about it with
Discuss

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 02:32:16 2021 No.19655974 >>19655917 >dude God isn't real hits blunt >dude don't trust politicians pops shroom Summed up the entire series for you

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 02:34:12 2021 No.19655982 >>19655974 >dude don't trust politicians One of the core themes of the series is that competent leaders are the only people that can be trusted and even codified law is inferior and dangerous in comparison Nigger

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 02:47:59 2021 No.19656026 >>19655917 >I turned myself into a worm, Duncan >I'm God Emperor Leto II!

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 02:48:19 2021 No.19656027

>>19655982
>competent leaders are the only people that can be trusted
Yes, and the upshot of this being that *no leader* and by extension no hierarchy can be trusted because there are no real transcendent guarantees of any leader's competence, only those cynically invented by Machiavellian schemers (religion), because *hits blunt* "God isn't real dude," the ethical upshot being to *pops shroom* "not trust politicians dude"
>“I wrote the Dune series because I had this idea that charismatic leaders ought to come with a warning label on their forehead: "May be dangerous to your health." One of the most dangerous presidents we had in this century was John Kennedy because people said "Yes Sir Mr. Charismatic Leader what do we do next?" and we wound up in Vietnam. And I think probably the most valuable president of this century was Richard Nixon. Because he taught us to distrust government and he did it by example.”
Retard.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 02:57:50 2021 No.19656051 >save humanity >too complicated for you mere mortals

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 03:53:13 2021 No.19656201

>>19655974
In contrast, WH40k:
>dude, God isn't real, the best we have is the emperor and he has to make himself divine through the sacrifice of billions of humans
>dude, Buddha was right all along, all there is is samara and countless striving demonic, psychic forces attempting manifestation
>dude, even a dead god is better than a living man

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 05:05:10 2021 No.19656409

>>19655974
>>19656027
I feel like it was pretty ambivalent on whether a God exists because it pretty directly danced with ideas of trancendance. Dune certainly asserts that *religion* "isn't real" either because it's a misunderstanding of the universe heavily coloured by culture, or in the case of the Bene Gesserit or many, many other malicious actors throughout history, it is either invented or manipulated for the sake of controlling people.
I don't think there's any way to argue against Dune's cautions/warnings about the trappings of organized religions and the pathology of orthodoxies.

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 05:18:32 2021 No.19656442

>Leto sits in the darkness of his corpse-dungeon, fondling one of his custom-made Hwi body pillows
>Moneo in the middle of rattling off reports on the entire imperium asks "Lord are you even listening?"
>Leto smiles, and proceeds to cite the entire collected works of Plato
>"Sir I don't understand," Moneo asks after waiting patiently during the 27-hour monologue
>Leto smiles. "Of course you don't you bumbling imbecil. That's why I keep you around."
>"Very well. One last question though: when will my daughter become relevant to the plot?"
>Leto smiles, reflecting inward for an hour. Eventually Moneo asks if he has an answer to his question, to which Leto smiles. "Of course, I was paying attention the whole time, Moneo. You are dismissed."
>As Moneo exits the chamber he passes Duncan Idaho on his way in. He is stark-naked and flanked by several of his harem members, drilling balls-deep into another while striding confidently.
>"Leto, what the fuck is going on!?" Idaho screamed, dislodging a lasgun from his rectum and levying it in Leto's direction.
>Leto smiled, as he so rarely did. "All according to the Golden Path."

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 05:33:26 2021 No.19656497 >>19655917 Made me want to try spice. So I asked around. I did not know what I was signing up for I can tell you that.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 05:40:22 2021 No.19656517 >>19655917 the golden path is just a yellow lake in the toilet of ideology

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 06:52:18 2021 No.19656726 >>19656442 Amazing! You captured everything that's both awesome and silly in the book at the same time. Please greentext other books from the series!

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 06:52:34 2021 No.19656728

>>19656409
Not just God but all transcendent categories, whether that be Reason, Man, History etc; any ideal used to order human affairs and that thus manifests as intersubjective violence (important note: not *real* violence). Why the abandonment of all forms of transcendence does not itself constitute a form of transcendence, Herbert does not tell us. More puzzling still: Herbert's anti-AI sentiment would seem to require a valorisation of the human subject. Why Man does not constitute a transcendent category in this sense, Herbert does not tell us.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 06:57:34 2021 No.19656746 >>19655982 >One of the core themes of the series is that competent leaders are the only people that can be trusted As told only from the point of view of said leaders....

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 07:04:28 2021 No.19656764

What are you all on about? God Emperor is an Augustinian meditation on transcendence and institutions. The spice *does* let you see the future, the bene gesserit *do* create a messiah, the golden path *is* real. What is beyond doesn't matter because the worm-man is truly superhuman and worthy of following.

Also the butlerian jihad was fought over abortion. Don't kill babies.

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 07:13:39 2021 No.19656796

>>19656746

The interesting thing about dune, is just about everyone CLAIMS to be working for the best interests of humanity, but if you study their actions, it seems like what they're doing tends to only benefit themselves. This is a theme that comes up time and time again.

And it's interesting, because even the world dictators in our actual history did the same thing. I wonder if those two things are connected....

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 08:12:43 2021 No.19657029 >>19656796 I wonder if this is an elaborate ruse or if you really are such a simpleton.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 08:17:19 2021 No.19657050 >>19655917 You should comment on it for a start, desu.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 08:26:18 2021 No.19657079 Leto is a combination of Nietzsche, Plato, and Hegel and thus the final boss of humanity to be overcome

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 08:45:56 2021 No.19657161 >>19656442 kek

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 09:00:23 2021 No.19657221

>>19655917
half way through god emperor, man its a lot better then children of dune. Was there any point in children of dune or was it just to get Leto into the worm form.

Why did Paul not agree with the golden path? Leto makes it sound like Paul couldnt handle the transformation. But Paul seemed pretty against the idea of centuries of peace.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 09:20:36 2021 No.19657307 Did Herbert Jr write about the future threat that was golden path about?

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 09:22:11 2021 No.19657315

>>19657221
>Why did Paul not agree with the golden path?

I'd say because paul still had some degree of sanity left, and he was highly skeptical of his actual path in life and what he came to be, and saw how his "terrible purpose" had a life of its own that he couldn't really control, and was even more skeptical of the idea of doubling down on all this bullshit.

leto, in all his arrogance, isn't the most introspective of people (as opposed to paul who becomes almost purely introspective), and isn't great at questioning his own motives. So I feel like he has no problem in believing, unconditionally, in his own bullshit.

Keep in mind, with the golden path, you're fully reliant on Leto's own point of view on it in order to accept that it is in fact, "golden." Even though there doesn't seem to be any evidence that it's working (aside from his own self serving justifications, of course). He has his "great enemy" of course, which the path saves humanity from, even though he himself has no idea what this is and there's never a shred of evidence that this great enemy even exists.

So in short, i'd say that paul had some pretty justified doubts as to the nature of all this hocus pocus, and Leto is simply arrogant enough to plow ahead.

>the idea of centuries of peace.
Is *Enforced* peace, really peace? And what's really the alternative? It seems like the guy who should know, the super bad ass prescient god emperor, his great vision has a way of becoming unreliable any time an important question like this comes up.

So, maybe a question is, would humanity be just fine, or maybe even better off, without the golden path? The books' answer:
>Well, no.
>Why not?
>Well because the guy who dreamed up the golden path says so.

That's not a flaw in the story btw, Herbert has flat out said it's entirely intentional.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 09:25:28 2021 No.19657335 >>19657307 Let's just say he didn't and never bring him up again

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 09:27:42 2021 No.19657343 >>19657335 But I am wondering, was Leto II correct? Maybe it was all green fairies caused by being high on spice

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 09:34:20 2021 No.19657379 >>19657221 >centuries of peace. was it? God Emperor was probably just as violent if not more

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 09:38:35 2021 No.19657405

>>19657379
>>19657315
Compared to Paul murdering half the galaxy i think its safe to say Leto was pretty peaceful.
Dune world was incredible violent before Leto, only reason people see him as a tyrant is because there has been so lite conflict in recent history.

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 09:39:40 2021 No.19657411
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>dude, there are like super aliens out there that will hunt humans
>that is why I transformed myself into a caterpillar and I am constantly high on cocaine space-crack
>so I can invent anti-magic or something

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 09:43:20 2021 No.19657420
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>>19657379
In Leto's view he was the apex predator, and also steered rebellions against his rule to better identify future administrators and desirable humans for breeding. So violence was not eliminated entirely but artificially cultivated for eugenic purposes over 3000 years by the same sovereign, rather than being allowed to wastefully run its course as it had been under the bene gesserit, who through accidents lost control of the breeding program as the wrong people were born or died. Consider how difficult the violent Harkonnen-Atreides feud had made acquiring the right studs, and how it directly caused the fall of the imperial dynasty. Leto prevents this sort of wild behavior and instead makes full use of prescience to destroy itself, to produce a human 'immune' to prescience, who could no longer be predicted.

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 09:51:02 2021 No.19657440

>>19657420

That's sort of his circular logic in action though.

>I need to save humanity from tyrants!!!!
>Oh? How you going to do that?
>By being THE WORST FUCKING TYRANT EVER!!!

>I need to save humanity from prescience!!!
>Uh huh, I bet I know the answer to this but, ok faggot, how you going to do that?
>By using and devoting my life to prescience!!!

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 09:53:22 2021 No.19657446 File: 1.70 MB, 766x992, file.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] did it better

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 09:53:23 2021 No.19657447 >>19657440 yes.jpeg

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 09:55:11 2021 No.19657449 >>19657446 40k is the anime adaptation. not thats a bad thing

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 10:04:12 2021 No.19657490

>>19657221
>>19657315
do y'all niggas not even read the damn books?
>Tears slipped from the sightless eyes and Paul released his grip, dropped his hand to his side. “If I’d chosen your way, I’d have become the bicouros of shaitan. What will you become?”
“For a time they’ll call me the missionary of shaitan, too,” Leto said. “Then they’ll begin to wonder and, finally, they’ll understand. You didn’t take your vision far enough, father. Your hands did good things and evil.”
>“But the evil was known after the event!”
“Which is the way of many great evils,” Leto said. “You crossed over only into a part of my vision. Was your strength not enough?”
>“You know I couldn’t stay there. I could never do an evil act which was known before the act. I’m not Jacurutu.” He clambered to his feet. “Do you think me one of those who laughs alone at night?”
“It is sad that you were never really Fremen,” Leto said. “We Fremen know how to commission the arifa. Our judges can choose between evils. It’s always been that way for us.”
>“Fremen, is it? Slaves of the fate you helped to make?” Paul stepped toward Leto, reached out in an oddly shy movement, touched Leto’s sheathed arm, explored up it to where the membrane exposed an ear, then the cheek and, finally, the mouth. “Ahhhh, that is your own flesh yet,” he said. “Where will that flesh take you?” He dropped his hand.
“Into a place where humans may create their futures from instant to instant.”
>“So you say. An Abomination might say the same.”
“I’m not Abomination, though I might’ve been,” Leto said. “I saw how it goes with Alia. A demon lives in her, father. Ghani and I know that demon: it’s the Baron, your grandfather.”
>Paul buried his face in his hands. His shoulders shook for a moment, then he lowered his hands and his mouth was set in a harsh line. “There is a curse upon our House. I prayed that you would throw that ring into the sand, that you’d deny me and run away to make... another life. It was there for you.”
“At what price?”
>After a long silence, Paul said: “The end adjusts the path behind it. Just once I failed to fight for my principles. Just once. I accepted the Mahdinate. I did it for Chani, but it made me a bad leader.”
Leto found he couldn’t answer this. The memory of that decision was there within him.
>“I cannot lie to you any more than I could lie to myself,” Paul said. “I know this. Every man should have such an auditor. I will only ask this one thing: is the Typhoon Struggle necessary?”
“It’s that or humans will be extinguished.”
>Paul heard the truth in Leto’s words, spoke in a low voice which acknowledged the greater breadth of his son’s vision. “I did not see that among the choices.”
“I believe the Sisterhood suspects it,” Leto said. “I cannot accept any other explanation of my grandmother’s decision.”

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 10:06:04 2021 No.19657498 >>19657490 Paul didn't do it because he wanted to stay human and keep his penis

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 10:07:21 2021 No.19657503 >>19657490 Oh yeah yeah, leto knows the true way, sure. Just listen to him, he says so.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 10:11:41 2021 No.19657513 >>19657503 reread the chapter, dumbshit.

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 11:22:13 2021 No.19657896

>>19656796
This is SUCH bullshit. Leto II literally suffers unimaginable torture for 3500 years and then eternity to save humanity, and paul was extremely unhappy and tormented basically his entire tenure as emperor too. Nothing they did was self serving. You didnt even read the books did you

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 11:25:24 2021 No.19657916 >>19657896 >Leto II literally suffers unimaginable torture for 3500 years and then eternity to save humanity We know, because he says so. He had it so bad. You could call it a...uh, i dunno, what's the word? A Kampf or something?

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 11:26:47 2021 No.19657923 >>19657896 What torture?

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 11:29:59 2021 No.19657936 >oh noo. Not the water! My true weakness! I am melting, i am melting How original. Oh wait, Wonderful Wizard of Oz did it first

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 11:35:18 2021 No.19657964

>>19657923
He can never die and instead has to live a semi conscious existence forever split among every sandtrout and sandworm and have no autonomy. He just has to watch forever, never dying
>>19657916
We know because its revealed by the protag of the 5th book

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 11:38:02 2021 No.19657976 >>19657964 >he may never dir That is after he dissolves, i meant what torture before that Also he is not really concious, so probably it is fine?

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 11:40:23 2021 No.19657997 >>19657976 Also it has been a while, why does he choose to die that way anyway?

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 11:44:29 2021 No.19658025

>>19657976
Before that he has to endure 3500 years of constant schizo yelling in his head while losing his humanity and being a fucking worm freak that he hates. He is completely alone. Thats the entire reason hwi is relevant. So yeah, he is suffering for 3500 years, but he only REALLY starts suffering when he dies, and that lasts forever
>>19657997
Because he wants to push the evolution of the sandworm to spur evolution of the human race as a result

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 11:47:29 2021 No.19658039

>>19657896

I think you're also missing that Herbert came right out and said that Dune is mostly about politics, and how people and institutions cleverly find ways to seize and maintain power.

At the heart of it, he proposes a ideal situation where you have a single ruler, who's somehow granted pure knowledge and insight. And what happens? Is the universe's problems solved? Well, strangely, it seems like things just carry on like always, there's always some crisis floating up, there's always a vague enemy that must be protected against. In fact, it doesn't seem like much of anything is ever solved, aside from the things that happen to annoy the all knowing ruler.

Herbert is pointing out that maybe human problems are endemic to the very condition of being human. And as much crazy shit as humans do themselves in this universe to change themselves and the world around them, they're still just humans at the end of the day, and their worlds don't seem very much different, or less chaotic, than ours. He asks the question, if our drive is to advance as humans, what in the hell does that even mean? And by what method should we chose this path? I don't think he claims to know, but his message: NOT politics.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 11:48:44 2021 No.19658049 >>19658025 Eh, he has a harem of fish speakers, his eternal fuck boi Duncan. And if he is really bored he masturbate memories of her naked mother. Not the worst life desu

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 11:52:12 2021 No.19658065 >>19657315 >>19657307 Didnt leto hint in god emperor that the ixians were building prescient hunter seekers? Thats why siona being invisible to prescience was what he was looking for

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 11:54:24 2021 No.19658076 >>19658065 It is an vauge unknown alien threat, not Ixians Basically a plot device

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 11:55:18 2021 No.19658082 >>19658065 Well he hints at all kinds of things that may or may not actually be, depending on how it benefits him.

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 11:59:51 2021 No.19658111

>>19658039
I agree, but i dont necessarily think the point is to cast huge doubts onto leto. I think everything you said is appropriate for every political/religious faction: bene gesserit, tleilaxu, ixian, corrino, harkonnen, atreides, qizarite...except paul and leto. It applies to them in a different way
The list of usual faction this is easily applicable because they supposedly have less insight (prescience). Paul and leto supposedly know whats going to happen. The criticism of them must be more high level and meta as you said. Herbert is saying “do they REALLY know whats going to happen? Very suspicious!”
I dont entirely buy that skepticism though. Because we are asked to believe in the prescience’s ability to accurately predict the future basically right from book 1. And it does basically always. But in the long run it doesnt? Kind of a collapse of what you're asking the reader to believe
But the real criticism of paul and mostly leto is in the other theme of the story, the advancement of humanity. Basically, “we want to advance humanity even if it causes all this brutality? Is that even worth it?” Thats probably the better criticism of leto II

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 12:01:35 2021 No.19658129

>>19658076
>>19658082
Ive only just finished book 4, the only thing he says is the ixians built a device that could shield itself from prescience, and would eventually build another device that was a mechanical prescient hunter seeker. Nothing about aliens

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 12:10:50 2021 No.19658189 Why did Leto try fucking his sister?

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 12:11:25 2021 No.19658193

>>19658111

I guess my reading of it would point to the notion that it doesn't really matter if the prescience works or not, either way Paul and Leto's flaws as humans both make them warp and twist this pure knowledge to their own ends. I find Paul more sympathetic because he at least seems to see that this is the case, where Leto's arrogance blinds him to this.

And it's a great criticism of leaders in general, if we're to believe most of their claims that they know what's best, they have the knowledge and power and abilities that we just can't fathom, then ok fine, but even if that's true, you're just a person and you warp and twist everything for your own self-serving morality. So what does it matter if you knowledge was pure in the beginning if you're just going to dook all over it?

>“we want to advance humanity even if it causes all this brutality? Is that even worth it?”

Yeah, and of course, doesn't that seem kind of regressive? Are we ADVANCING anything with that mentality? And once again, what the hell does advancing humanity even mean?

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 12:14:01 2021 No.19658213

>>19658039
>And what happens? Is the universe's problems solved? Well, strangely, it seems like things just carry on like always, there's always some crisis floating up, there's always a vague enemy that must be protected against. In fact, it doesn't seem like much of anything is ever solved, aside from the things that happen to annoy the all knowing ruler.
I should also point out that things being “solved” is exactly what Leto more or less does, and he treats it as a necessary evil (as do the rebels). There is more or less peace and tranquility universe-wide for the majority of Leto’s 3500 year rule. This is because one of the central themes of the book is humankinds stated desire for peace vs. its real need for conflict. Why do we need conflict? To evolve. To remain static is to stagnate, become obsolete, and die. Humans need conflict to evolve and flourish. Thats the entire motivation for the golden path in the first place
The question you and i both alluded to is, is the fact that humanity needs conflict to evolve worth it? Do we WANT to evolve? Should we (humans) exist if thats our nature

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 12:20:34 2021 No.19658259 >>19658189 Because he is Pharaoh. His sacred kingship is made very obvious, it's the entire theme of the book, he even points out his memories go back to those times.

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 12:22:25 2021 No.19658271

>>19658193
>either way Paul and Leto's flaws as humans both make them warp and twist this pure knowledge to their own ends. I find Paul more sympathetic because he at least seems to see that this is the case, where Leto's arrogance blinds him to this.
I dont know where youre getting this, theres nothing that i remember to suggest some “twisting” of the use of prescience for their own means. They both suffer horrible fates at the hands of this “gift”
Paul even calls it a curse upon house atreides and wishes leto had run away and fucked that fremen chick instead

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 12:47:35 2021 No.19658426

>>19658271

Both can chose futures. They can see possible outcomes, and choose the one they like. Well, how do they arrive at these decisions? They're humans and their own flaws and perhaps mistaken perceptions lead them to chose this. Even though they're granted with knowledge of the future, they haven't been granted with a pure spirit in which to choose the "right" path. Some, especially many in the dune universe, in fact argue that their spirits are highly corrupted.

So there might be a religious message here too. Who the hell are these guys to be choosing which future to pursue? Seems akin to subverting god's will, taking power that shouldn't be yours.

>B-but my prescience!!!

OK wow, so you're a really really smart fucking monkey pal, well ok i'm sold, let's just hand the keys to the universe over to you.

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 13:21:35 2021 No.19658616

>>19658426
Yeah i guess. I still think its not a bad thought to say the guy with the most information is the best poised to make the decision, unless that guy is evil. Then you ask who gets to choose what is evil? But all leto and paul care about is preserving the species. Thats a fairly agnostic goal, shared by most of the other factions

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 13:26:54 2021 No.19658638

>>19656764
>the bene gesserit *do* create a messiah
This is an important point that is often glossed over. The Bene Gesserit's scheming is often just paraphrased as "they fake religions," but more accurately it should be said that they create real religions, with minor tweaks and details inserted that will benefit THEIR religion of the Kwisatz Haderach.
>>19656728
Similarly this is another important detail: despite spending much of his books decrying religion and mechanically deconstructing human and societal behaviour from an almost God-like in-universe perspective, Herbert is certainly NOT a materialist or advocate of scientism. Transcendental ideas permeate his work, but understandably it's easy to lose track of that amidst the winding thoughts and machinations of his characters.

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 13:31:59 2021 No.19658669
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i know we're talking a lot about themes and about the 4th book, but can someone help me understand Children of Dune? specifically the plot
what the FUCK were all the various schemes in this book? ive reread most of the relevant chapters and i cannot fucking figure out exactly what all the various players were plotting other than Leto and Ghanima. Herbert did an excellent job setting up all the players but in the end Leto just dunks all over them. what the fuck were the motivations/end plots of
>Jessica/Gurney
>Alia
>Duncan Idaho
>The Preacher/Paul
>Farad'n
>Bene Gesserit

As i said we know Leto/Ghani. Stilgar doesnt really have any plans, same with Irulan. It's difficult because it seems like so many characters already know what the other players' plans ARE but can never state them, and instead Herbert writes around that and confuses a poor retard like me

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 13:40:35 2021 No.19658706

>>19658669
I honestly think herbert couldnt be assed to finish all thr plot points so Leto just upp and fingered some sandtrouts. But real simple
Farad'n wants to be emporer again.
Jessica tricks him into becoming a pawn of the BG.
Gurney was told by jessica to make sure leto wasnt an abomination like Alia. But later is tricked by Alia to try and kill leto.
Alia is basically the Baron but a much less cunning one at that.
Paul just wants it all to be over.
Messaiah was a much better conspiracy plot about trying to kill godlike Muadib. Shorter and more concise.

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 13:41:54 2021 No.19658713

>>19657221
The horrible part of the Golden Path is NOT the worm transformation, which arguably wouldn't even happen if Paul accepted the GP. That's pure speculation though - it just seems like there are some details of the GP which are not essential, something we must accept if at least two people at two different points in time are acknowledged to have the potential to instate the GP.
The horror which Paul couldn't not accept was the thousands of years of forced tyrranical peace, the complete stripping of freedoms from the entire species, the almost genocidal levels of psychological trauma the Kwisatz Haderach much inflict on the entire human genome, that is what Paul could not stomache.
The core essence of Paul's character struggles lies in him trying to maintain his humanity despite being the fulcrum of beyond-human machinations. That's why he keeps monogamy with Chani as his concubine, because he holds love above the breeding program (thankfully his messiah genes were too strong for Chani's fremen ovaries). Paul remains loyal to some essence of humanity within him, despite never being sure of whether he is still a free human until the day he dies.
Leto on the other hand quickly embraces the GP and thus does everything he can to cast aside his humanity, because such inclinations can only impede what he NEEDS to do. Thus, his struggle once Hwi Noree enters the plot is to do his best to NOT surrender to any of human impulses of empathy, desire for normalcy, etc.
Although it's easy to interpret this as a binary "Paul was too chicken to do what needed to be done, Leto is a chad," it's simply a difference in priorities. Paul valued his humanity and was scared he would lose it, while Leto, still in the womb, obtained a third-person perspective on everything that Paul gave up for the sake of his humanity (GP included).

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 13:46:54 2021 No.19658736

>>19657411
>to invent this anti-magic I need my descendents to have sex with each other
>you just have to trust me, bro
>no don't ask if I still have a penis
>*hits spice*
>btw Siona now that I've kidnapped you into the middle of my personal desert, you must suck the fluid out of my unidentified appendage to survive :^)
>Golden Path intensifies

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 13:47:06 2021 No.19658737

>>19658713
>Thus, his struggle once Hwi Noree enters the plot is to do his best to NOT surrender to any of human impulses of empathy, desire for normalcy, etc.
ive always been curious about this, because from any summary of the book it appears that the ixians made hwi noree for leto to fall in love with to eventually cause his downfall. but that isnt what happens. leto struggles but eventually succeeds to contain his desires for hwi and then causes his OWN downfall by throwing himself in front of duncan and siona's crosshairs
it felt like kind of a waste of the character in the end. same goes for moneo. same goes for duncan, and kind of siona. leto was basically the only character with a satisfying arc
honestly god emperor felt like it ended right when it needed like another 100 pages of climax and resolution

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 13:48:05 2021 No.19658744

>>19658713
Ye but Paul murder 6 billion people you would think that would way heavily in favour for tyranical peace after what hes seen first hand what humanity is capable of. I sympathise alot more with Leto and only having an all woman army was unironically a good solution to spread the peace.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 13:48:41 2021 No.19658747 >>19657446 40k is certainly easier to understand on the surface-level (and easier to enjoy without understanding). I wouldn't say better, but yeah 40k pulled off the similar idea very well.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 13:51:50 2021 No.19658764 >>19657503 He unironically does. Did you actually read all the way through to God Emperor and think that the Golden Path was just schizo ramblings by self-interested tyrants?

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 13:54:35 2021 No.19658779 >>19658076 I think there are many point in God Emperor which directly allude to the great extinction threat being thinking machines. And as far as I'm aware (haven't read past GE) the latter books confirm this.

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 13:59:37 2021 No.19658812

>>19658706
Yeah Children was much less enjoyable to read than Messiah (and the other two books).
It didn't help that Alia's parts were the closest the series ever got to just flat-out treating the genetic memories as pure magic. And despite spending so much time in her head and experiencing her troubles first-hand, she really does not end up being very sympathetic or understandable. I guess it really is a weakness of Herbert's writing, but one which he obscures/avoids by his usual close-but-not-too-close distance from character perspectives.

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 14:04:54 2021 No.19658831

>>19658713
>The horror which Paul couldn't not accept was the thousands of years of forced tyrranical peace, the complete stripping of freedoms from the entire species, the almost genocidal levels of psychological trauma the Kwisatz Haderach much inflict on the entire human genome, that is what Paul could not stomache.

I see this as just a cop out for Leto's actual brutality. Every dictator in history has said, on some level, that their brutality was necessary for their people, or humanity as a whole (hitler definitely did this btw).

I don't buy the argument in the first place, that in order to save people for tyrants, Leto has to become the worst tyrant ever. But...uh...ok, humanity has had really bad tyrants before, lots of them in fact, and that never "cures" us of them.

Also, look at the fremen. These were people who were brutalized under tyrants, literally hunted by them, for centuries. Did this cure them of tyranny? No, the fuckers adopted a tyrant of their own the second they got a chance.

Once again, I'd say we'd be looking at things from the perspective of the tyrant, and taking their word for it, just because, you know, they got zooper sekret knowings and abilities, which in no way are biased towards their own motives.

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 14:05:14 2021 No.19658832

>>19658812
>And despite spending so much time in her head and experiencing her troubles first-hand, she really does not end up being very sympathetic or understandable
i disagree, i think the key chapters where i really felt for her in the tail end of the story were when
>she realizes paul is the preacher and has the infantile urge to run after him and beg him to help her
>she hears of duncans death and her mind basically shatters because half of her is taken over by the memories and half of her, the original part, is despairing
i thought he did a good job of keeping you on the edge of not knowing if it was crazy alia or just not alia anymore. how much you liked the character from the first two books also helped you sympathize--I was already sad she was most likely fucked right at the start of the book
i think the weakest part of her was the ending. herbert likes to blaze through his climactic moments, and there really should have been more of a struggle to make her triumphant suicide more impressive or cathartic

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 14:05:25 2021 No.19658833
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>>19658779
Leto is concerned with retardation of human agents by machines performing decisions. It's a question of cybernetics and not spooky evil robots, hence why the lesson is to destroy despotism (the Atreides empire and prescience) and not Ix (innovation), because Ix isn't replacing thought with obedience like absolute rule does, which prefigures thinking machines as a solution to the problem of organizing, running, and maintaining society and order. All of the contraband Leto imports from Ix like his micro-journal transcribers or the cart he rides on are just aids for what he already does, not outright replacements for his own agency and decision-making. Brian's sequels (which are really derived from his prequels, and even reference characters from them) really shit the bed on this one, while from what Frank had finished it's a bit of a cliffhanger. You have the Honored Matres, who basically combine the worst features of the Bene Gesserit and the Tleilaxu in attempting to reduce people to tools, and they themselves rupture into imperial space in flight from something else.

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 14:08:09 2021 No.19658851

>>19658812
Alia should of kys herself after Duncan and/or Paul dies. It would give her character some respect while still showing the risk of abomination. Would of given Paul and Duncans death more weoght aswell. Instead it ends kinda bleak with everyones arcs ending kind of lackluster. Duncans death was great though, Stilgar is a great character.

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 14:09:56 2021 No.19658860

>>19658737
The Ixians did, in a sense, create Hwi for that purpose. But you have to remember that despite spending thousands of years analyzing Leto for the purpose of destroying him, the Ixians (and every other faction) still understand very little of him, and this isn't helped by the fact that he fully utilizes his prescience to keep them all trapped under his thumb. So sending Hwi was basically a shot in the dark, like "let's just see if this has any effect." Turns out it did; they successfully created the literal perfection of genetic attraction for Leto, but this wasn't enough to cause his outright downfall, nor was it really intended to since nobody but Leto even understands what he is or what he's trying to do, they are simply trying to kill him because he is their tyrant, nothing more.
And keep in mind that Leto wants to be killed, because this is a necessary part of the Golden Path. His prescience even knows that he will be killed, but he intentionally does not look into the future to see how or when he will be killed, likely because he wants to prevent any chance of his human self-preservation instinct kicking in. By extension, you might suppose that every time he succumbs to the worm and kills assassins in the book (like the Face Dancers or the Idahos), he has regret, because maybe that was supposed to be his fated time. But at least he knows, by his own designs, that many more assassinations will come in the future. He leaves his death up to fate and the actions of others. If he had succumbed to his desires for Hwi, he would have certainly retreated from all potential of danger and tried to keep himself and his waifu safe from harm. Instead, he achieves a balancing point where he is able to enjoy Hwi's presence as a self-indulgence, but accepts that she is just a minor blip in the consciousness of the universe, and thus just as disposable as himself; she can die with him.
>honestly god emperor felt like it ended right when it needed like another 100 pages of climax and resolution
I got a bit of that impression too, which is probably because it is not the end of the series, but sadly Herbert died before his last two books could be justified via a conclusion to the story.

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 14:13:01 2021 No.19658878

>>19658851
duncans death WOULD have been great except it felt like it didnt do anything. he had stilgar run off into the desert to rebel against alia, but in the end that doesnt actually do anything. alia still kidnaps ghanima and stilgar doesnt do anything in the end, it's all leto
the entire book suffered from Leto being too chad in the end and making all the other cool plots and sacrifices meaningless

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 14:28:38 2021 No.19658968

>>19658744
The Fremen jihad was a mere statistic in the face of the Pax Leto's brutality. Imagine entire worlds being wiped clean of human life, or at least having their entire civilization demolished, just for rising up against Leto. Paul's jihad was a conquest, and thus fought armies for the control of governments. Leto's 3500-year-long jihad was fought against citizens for the control of humans on a level of totality which does not allow for any individual freedom outside of one's personal life. Every human in the universe became a prisoner under Leto, with his Fish Speakers acting as the jailors.
The problem with tyrants is that they are too small-scale. They leave their scars in their people, but usually for only a finite amount of time, and only in a localized area. Germany is very anti-Nazi after Hitler to this day, but there are plenty of unironic Nazi sentiments in North America which was practically untouched by Hitler, and plenty of other tyrannical dictators have appeared and continue appear elsewhere in the world; they do not share Germany's PTSD.
The Fremen, like every other peoples in history, strike out against tyrants and then instate their own because they are still subject to the tribalistic us-vs.-them instinct of humans. It wasn't that tyranny was bad (despite how much lip service is paid to that notion), it was that a different people subjected us to cruelty - thus it is okay or even beneficial if we become the aggressor people. In the case of the Fremen it was anti-Harkonnen and more broadly anti-Imperium, but if they could become the protected, priveleged class, then there's no problem with the system still existing. This is exactly the dilemma which Paul and Leto are aware of.
Leto needs to induce the trauma of a tyrant equally among the entire human species, make it so terrible and unforgettable that humans never make this seemingly-timeless mistake again. Any time in the future that someone tries to seize absolute power over a population, people will remember Leto, the God Emperor.
He becomes a sandworm to assume the form of a snake, the perrenial subconscious symbol of the "predator." This is what he means when he describes himself as the ultimate predator; he is subjecting ALL of humanity to a forced mental rewiring, such that now "dictator" or any other form of absolute governmental power become irrevocably equated with the symbol of "predator." Humanity is taught the terrible lesson. And because of this, humanity will never again become centralized in such a way that they are all vulnerable to one catastrophe wiping them out. With everyone living under the Imperium, a single disaster (the thining machines) could wipe them all out. But after Leto's death The Scattering occurs, which ensures that humanity is sufficiently decentralized and diversified that they can adapt to and survive any event.

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 15:14:06 2021 No.19659198

>>19658706
>Jessica tricks him into becoming a pawn of the BG.
but why? to what ends
the main confusion is who knows what between ghanima/leto, jessica, and duncan. when they are captive on salusa secundus, duncan "leaves" atreides service and jessica internally thinks
>"does he REALLY know why im here?"
okay, so jessica is trying to test leto/ghanima and make faradn bene gesserit. but then she thinks
>"only ghani really knows"
so what the fuck, jessica is planning something with the BG but ALSO has roped ghanima into it?
and what the fuck is duncan doing? he says hes a tool of the preacher, but what does paul even want??
and then, its revealed that Alia is in control of the fremen at jacrutu/shuloch the whole time. so she controls the fremen who control paul. but she was confused about if paul was really the preacher? if she controlled the fremen who controlled paul who controls duncan, then she controls duncan? WHAT THE FUCK

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 15:33:03 2021 No.19659276 >>19659198 I didn't understand Children either, anon. I'd need to reread it. I was just glad it was over, and eager to jump into God Emperor.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 15:45:08 2021 No.19659341 >>19659276 i actually really enjoyed it, it was more adventurous and action packed compared to the 2nd and 4th books, but definitely confusing

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 17:55:43 2021 No.19659913 >>19659198 please...need other opinions

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 21:01:29 2021 No.19660897 >>19655974 Dunebros...

Anonymous Thu Dec 30 23:19:42 2021 No.19661583
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>>19660897
>>19655974

You can smugly trivialize anything you want by oversimplifying it. Look at Neil Degrasse Tyson's twitter if you want an example of why you shouldn't make a habit of this.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 30 23:31:13 2021 No.19661619 >>19661583 Yeah, we know that neil, thanks but fuck you, i'm still going to get drunk as fuck and get my dick sucked.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 31 00:28:31 2021 No.19661771 >>19655917 Duncan "wtf why do you have female soldiers?" Leto II "lol Duncan u gay?" Duncan "N-n-n-o-o"

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 31 04:22:12 2021 No.19662508 >>19661771 Can't believe this happened and people STILL think Leto isn't based as fuck.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 31 04:25:36 2021 No.19662512 >>19661583 >there's value to human life though, of course, and they are all equal

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 31 05:28:23 2021 No.19662698 >>19662508 Its a bit weird because at first Leto says that all male armies leads to homosexuality which leads to rape but later Moneo says some of histories best soldiers and armies were homosexual

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 31 06:21:08 2021 No.19662868 >>19661771 >we need to advance humanity!!! >we're going to clone the same guy over and over for thousands of years to serve us, even though we know it's a bad idea, though.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 31 09:50:02 2021 No.19663583 >>19656764 It was about not letting robots throw newborns off balconies, so not about abortion

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 31 09:51:49 2021 No.19663589 >>19662868 Doing something even though you know it's a bad idea is at the core of literally everything in Dune

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 31 09:59:20 2021 No.19663613 My favorite in the series because it is almost all dialogue

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 31 10:56:12 2021 No.19663824 >>19662868 leto kept cloning duncan for two reasons >he knew duncan would kill him >he knew once he was dead, duncans sense of old time atreides morality would be what humanity needed to unfuck itself after millenia of leto's predation

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 31 11:33:24 2021 No.19663962 >>19656442 >as he so rarely did

Anonymous Fri Dec 31 12:25:36 2021 No.19664218

>>19663824
>>he knew duncan would kill him

You know....if you clone somebody 200 fucking times, vegas odds, one of those times he might kill you.

>>he knew once he was dead, duncans sense of old time atreides morality would be what humanity needed to unfuck itself after millenia of leto's predation

Because duncan is somehow the only person in the universe that possesses any kind of morality?

That's the problem I have with leto, his explanations seem kind of shallow and somewhat mentally deranged at worst. If you listen to him, of course, he's the only worm/person in the entire universe who can accomplish anything, but his reasoning is always pretty bizarre. You have to wonder if the universe might just be fine, or even better off, without the dick.

Anonymous Fri Dec 31 12:41:33 2021 No.19664284

>>19664218
>one of those times he might kill you.
yeah, thats the entire point. he saw via prescience that a duncan would kill him, but he didnt know when. so he kept cloning duncan so eventually duncan would kill him, because being killed was part of the golden path. he had to have a duncan around when that happened because of the second point:
>I just think copying someone without doing any DD is blind.
unironically yes, leto even says to duncan that he (leto) and duncan are the only two people left from the pre-god emperor era. he says that it was a different kind of human back then. he values that as a guiding force for the new age of humanity during the scattering
the distinctions between duncans mind and the minds of everyone else leto has bred throughout the millennia is brought up several times. moneo even says that duncan's body is slow, and then leto says "but his mind is faster than everyone else"

Anonymous Fri Dec 31 12:48:35 2021 No.19664311

>>19664284

>so he kept cloning duncan so eventually duncan would kill him

it could also be attributable to just basic fucking chance. And...there's also 100,000 other ways to die that he seems to be ignoring.

>he says that it was a different kind of human back then

How the hell would he know? He's a rich kid who's lived in a palace his entire life, sitting around hallucinating. He's kind of the very definition of living in a bubble.

Anonymous Fri Dec 31 13:52:53 2021 No.19664654

>>19664311
>How the hell would he know? He's a rich kid who's lived in a palace his entire life, sitting around hallucinating. He's kind of the very definition of living in a bubble.
are you retarded? he has the living memory of almost every human that ever lived before him

Anonymous Fri Dec 31 13:59:18 2021 No.19664688

>>19664654
>are you retarded? he has the living memory of almost every human that ever lived before him

The funny thing is he never really acts like it. He acts like a spoiled, angry, vain tyrant, not somebody who's supposedly the wisest of the wise and the pinnacle of human existence.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 31 14:22:22 2021 No.19664817 >>19664688 i dont know what to tell you, you read the same book totally different than i did

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 31 14:28:50 2021 No.19664873 >>19655982 No it's not ... It's against those type of people because it's a warning about charismatic leaders. God Emperor was a bad thing you just never got the punch line with Dune 7 unwritten.

Anonymous Fri Dec 31 15:15:26 2021 No.19665093

>>19664873
>>19655982
more like
>good leaders and administrators are possible
>such people have principles that they are willing to suffer for, manage risks, act decisively when the situation calls for it, take responsibility for errors, do not hide their mistakes, have a vast and comprehensive understanding of history, are always willing to learn new things, etc.
>the letter of the law can never be equivalent to the spirit of the law
>therefore breaking the law in service of a higher ideal is the correct course, but this is extremely hazardous. As Moneo is stated to have said, "the God Emperor is capable of doing anything, anything at all if it is thought to be instructive."
>Charismatic leaders are perilous largely because they are able to induce psychological mass formation in a population: that is, they can set into motion massive events that they cannot then control or direct constructively. “He didn’t use the Jihad,” Scytale said. “The Jihad used him. I think he would’ve stopped it if he could...You can’t stop a mental epidemic. It leaps from person to person...It’s overwhelmingly contagious....Who can stop such a thing? Muad’Dib hasn’t the antidote. The thing has roots in chaos."

Anonymous Fri Dec 31 15:27:00 2021 No.19665121

>>19665093
>“He didn’t use the Jihad,” Scytale said. “The Jihad used him. I think he would’ve stopped it if he could
this is what you would think from book 2, but scytale is ultimately wrong. paul wasn't used by the jihad, he DID use it. he initially thought he was being used by it because he wanted a way out, but he realized that the golden path was the only way humanity would survive in the end
he did pussy out in the end and let leto do it, but he knew what he was doing the whole time

Anonymous Fri Dec 31 15:33:50 2021 No.19665148

>>19662698
"Best armies" as in they were the most efficient at killing and dominating.
Leto's goal with the Fish Speakers is to have an army which can enforce and encourage peace, thus the homosexual and rapist tendencies of male armies are undesirable. Plus when properly trained and equipped there is not a big enough difference in the combat potential between male and female armies; the Fish Speakers are able to be Leto's authoritarian police-soldiers with maximal efficiency regardless of their gender.
Also considering that all historic armies are male, Moneo's line is more of an emphasis on the homosexual element, not the quality of male soldiers.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 31 15:34:53 2021 No.19665152 >>19664688 That's exactly what the quintessential ruler would act like, crack open a history book, man.

Anonymous Fri Dec 31 15:38:36 2021 No.19665167

>>19665121
Paul was aware of the jihad but couldn't stop it. There's the scene in the first book, I think it's when he recieves his Fremen name, wherein after his trick with changing his prophecized name didn't work, he realizes that the only way to avert the jihad would be to kill everyone in the room with him at that moment, including his mother. Once again, his desire to maintain his humanity wins out (evidently), since one's parents are too sacrosanct for humans to kill.
He was unable/unwilling to stop the jihad, therefore it used him.

Anonymous Fri Dec 31 15:42:37 2021 No.19665181

>>19665121
>“Chani, beloved,” he whispered, “do you know what I’d spend to end the Jihad—to separate myself from the damnable godhead the Qizarate forces onto me?”
>She trembled. “You have but to command it,” she said.
>“Oh, no. Even if I died now, my name would still lead them."
>“In the one act of predicting an accurate future, Muad’Dib introduced an element of development and growth into the very prescience through which he saw human existence. By this, he brought uncertainty onto himself. Seeking the absolute of orderly prediction, he amplified disorder, distorted prediction.”
Paul's vision was fucked, and as above >>19657490 , his vision was more incomplete than that of Leto. Of course, even Leto cannot see transfinitely into the future, but that's another issue.

Anonymous Fri Dec 31 15:49:37 2021 No.19665205

>>19665167
yes, but even as much as he hates the jihad, he later sees the paths that come out of the jihad. and not going through with the jihad would lead to the extinction of humanity. if he had gone ahead and killed everyone in the room with him he would have damned humanity, he just didnt know it yet

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 31 15:50:11 2021 No.19665208 >>19656201 I think you mean >buy our cool plastic models >space marine shoot green man bang bang bang

Anonymous Fri Dec 31 16:07:11 2021 No.19665265

>>19665205
>he just didnt know it yet
So you're saying it wasn't part of his thought process, and thus in no way did he "use" the jihad rather than being used by it.
The whole point is that Paul is swept up in the tides of fate and the thousands-of-years-old machinations of other actors, and has to futilely try to change that future to something less bloody, and hold on to his humanity. The former he fails at completely, the latter he arguably succeeds.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 31 16:11:24 2021 No.19665282 >>19656442 top kek

Anonymous Fri Dec 31 16:21:43 2021 No.19665334

>>19665152

Yeah, that's my exact point. He's got his super abilities and prescient knowledge, and in the end he's just a shitty ineffecient, vain, delusional ruler who's more interested in fucking around with his pet projects than solving any actual problems humanity might have. aside from:

>I must save humanity!
>from what?
>ME GODDAMNIT!!! WHAT ARE YOU, FUCKING DUMB!?!
>how you going to do that?
>By being the worst possible me that I can!
>Huh...ok, I uh...guess I see that.
>You know, you're all dipshits. You just don't see it. I'm just so smart.

Furthermore, i think it's exactly Herbert's point. It's not a flaw in the story, it's the point.

Anonymous Fri Dec 31 16:46:12 2021 No.19665419

>>19665265
>So you're saying it wasn't part of his thought process, and thus in no way did he "use" the jihad rather than being used by it.
he is used by it and then he uses it
i dont know how you can say he was solely used BY it when he literally perfectly stepped outside of the jihad's influence and then chose to return because he had to keep the golden path open
>has to futilely try to change that future to something less bloody
again, i think at FIRST he wants to change the future to be less bloody. but between the events of the first and second book he realizes that the "bloody" future he initially sees and interprets as the worst case end scenario is not actually nearly as terrible as what would happen if he purposefully prevented that future from happening.
he says it multiple times in messiah. he has to follow along to the steps of the vision he has seen or else the alternative is far, far worse for everyone in the long run

Anonymous Fri Dec 31 16:47:47 2021 No.19665429

>>19665334
its said multiple times that human stagnation is human death. humans have to evolve. he is the catalyst for that evolution. the imperium was human stagnation and he had to break it. thats his entire motive. you can disagree that that IS a problem, but honestly the imperium fucking sucked. the guild navigators are the perfect example of parasitic, stagnant death. they thought they were hot shit but because they stagnated for so long, they became cucks for leto's spice

Anonymous Fri Dec 31 17:27:39 2021 No.19665611

>>19665429
>the imperium was human stagnation and he had to break it.

According to Leto yeah. Of course, things don't look any better under him.

>We MUST fight stagnation!!!
>how...?
>We will make everything WAY FUCKING MORE STAGNANT THAN IT EVER WAS!!!
>Ok...hey man, are you feeling ok?
>Gawd I hate you simpletons, I'm just so beyond you.

>the guild navigators are the perfect example of parasitic, stagnant death.

You know what's a great example of a parasitic stagnant death? How about an emperor who's seized all power and locked the entire universe down condemning it to a stagnant death?

So they kill the asswipe finally and

>Yeah, well i MEANT for you to kill me and fix all my bullshit, so there!!!! Gawd you guys just don't get me!

You also could have just like, put some subsidies in place for deep space colonization, you know. Just a thought....

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 31 17:54:20 2021 No.19665742 File: 15 KB, 559x423, 1592161426720.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >mfw reading this thread after having only read the first book

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 31 18:07:07 2021 No.19665785 >>19665334 You think my point is the same as your point precisely because you were too stupid to follow along with the plot, nothing else.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 31 18:08:48 2021 No.19665789 File: 17 KB, 483x270, 1640798905838.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >Bought dune from a thrift store yesterday >Open it up to read a few pages >Punched in the face with Cigar smoke

Anonymous Fri Dec 31 18:12:02 2021 No.19665802

>>19665611
Yes, he taught humanity they would never be able to forget, that was the entire point. Humanity is prone to embracing tyrrany and stagnation, because all the times they have made this mistake before in the past wasn't enough to make those concepts anathema to everyone.
You type like an underage asswipe and Leto was acknowledging that he would be murdered for the sake of the Golden Path's completion from the very beginning, so your juvenile attempt to frame it as though he was being petty and trying to save face just falls completely flat.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 31 18:17:22 2021 No.19665815 File: 1.05 MB, 1081x2839, dune reg.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 31 18:55:58 2021 No.19666001 >>19665815 Nice chart. Very cool, but kind of limited by Star Wars and Futurama.

Anonymous Fri Dec 31 19:21:29 2021 No.19666098

>>19665802
>Yes, he taught humanity they would never be able to forget

Right, so his 3500 years of stagnation would teach them what 20,000 years of stagnation under the imperium wouldn't.

>Leto was acknowledging that he would be murdered for the sake of the Golden Path's completion from the very beginning

wait a minute...you're saying, that he knew at some point THAT HE WOULD DIE!?!?!? Holy fuck, what a sacrifice! He's so different than all of us dumbfucks walking around, tugging our dicks, not doing jack shit who just keep on being useless for eternity. He actually knew he would die one day, just for doing the stuff that he does? Damn dog....that's a unique sacrifice.

Once again, there's nothing really out there that says that humanity wouldn't be just fine, if not even better off, without the king edgeworm. Once again, I think this is entirely intentional on Herbert's part.

>b-but muh scattering.

Right....because humans just HATE going out and colonization new places and exploring. They just NEVER do it unless you ruthlessly suppress the entire universe for millennia. It was totally needed to, because humanity was already spread out all over the fucking galaxy, but spreading out a tad bit further, yeah that'll fix things right up.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 31 19:27:03 2021 No.19666122 >>19666098 Leto saw a concurrent reality where humanity was wiped out without the Golden Path.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 31 19:28:28 2021 No.19666128 >>19666001 >kind of limited by Star Wars and Futurama The people who post here don't have many referential sources at their beck.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 31 19:44:25 2021 No.19666219 >>19656442 I feel like the Golden Path part could've used a *translator's note joke, but otherwise this is perfect.

Anonymous Fri Dec 31 19:47:57 2021 No.19666234

>>19666122

and....? So that means the golden path is the ONLY path that could be taken? No, it was the path he chose, because it would "work", but more importantly, it just happened to line up exactly with his flawed mindset, and his need to dominate.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 31 19:52:28 2021 No.19666249 >>19666234 >So that means the golden path is the ONLY path that could be taken? Literally yes. Holy fuck just read the series a second time you have no idea what happened in the plot.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 31 19:53:34 2021 No.19666254 >>19666234 Yes, that's why it's called the golden path. Without that humanity dies.

Anonymous Fri Dec 31 20:12:35 2021 No.19666354

>>19666249
>>19666254

It doesn't ever say that it's the ONLY path available, just the one that paul, leto, and various other power centers in the universe sees. They're also using prescience to see this, which they always point out can be limited, blind, or even wrong at times. There's also billions of other people in the universe who might have their own ideas on the subject, but nah, best to have one single dick deciding these things.

>B-but, we can't listen to them, they're flawed and weak.
>Oh...and what are you leto? Perfect?
>NO MORON, I'M FLAWED AND TERRIBLE, ALL SHOULD RIGHTLY FEAR ME BECAUSE I'M THE WORST APEX PREDATOR OF ALL AND I'LL DESTROY EACH ONE OF THESE DICKWEEDS IF THEY FUCK AROUND! It's all for their benefit tho, really.
>Right...umm...what were we even talking about here...?

Anonymous Fri Dec 31 20:25:52 2021 No.19666408

>>19658706
>Messaiah was a much better conspiracy plot about trying to kill godlike Muadib. Shorter and more concise
Messiah runs on the fact the conspirators objective is clear: Somehow kill/cripple the wacky prescient Godman running the empire as a dictator.
Children runs on nobody except Alia understanding that Leto and Ghanima is basically Paul 3.0, which is why the plot falls apart by the end,

Anonymous Fri Dec 31 20:34:47 2021 No.19666450

>>19665334
>>19664688
The point is that by 35k years of tyranni, the brilliant madman Leto has burned out completely and basically turned into 500IQ Homer Simpson.
He starts out his reign as Emperor Palpatine back in Children, and eventually by the time we reach God Emperor is has burned out to Homer Simpson levels.
So he is just bored and is waiting, and get to enjoy the wacky assassinations of everybody displeased, and not much else.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 31 21:08:12 2021 No.19666567 >>19666001 I think the joke is that it limits itself to star wars and futurama

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 1 03:04:30 2022 No.19667943 >>19665611 You are fucking retarded

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 1 03:08:03 2022 No.19667955 >>19666354 He literally never says hes flawed EVER, he says the exact opposite, that he is UNIQUELY positioned to be the one to choose this path on behalf of humanity. Youve never read the books. Shut the fuck up

Anonymous Sat Jan 1 04:11:08 2022 No.19668106

>>19658669
>Jessica/Gurney
2 fold to torture Leto to make sure he wasnt an abomination and then bring him into her plots or kill him. Her other plans was to get Farad'n under the influence of the bene gesserit which she succeeded, Then having Alia killed and Farad'n wed with Ganima legitimizing his claim to the throne similar to how Paul did with Irrulian.
>Alia
Alia is possessed by the Duke Harkonen who out of spite wants to destroy all the Atreides have ever accomplished.
>Duncan Idaho
very passive and doesnt really come into his own until later when he loses faith in Alia, but by the mid point of the book he is firm in wanting to defeat Alia, and gives his life to get Stilgar to quit being a pussy and pick a side.
>The Preacher
wants to destroy the religious monolith that has dominated the empire and return the Fremen to their former desert culture.
>Farad'n
honestly not sure he seemed pretty passive at first and eventually he just becomes the bene gesserit pawn so it doesnt matter what he wanted other than the throne.
>Bene Gesserit
see Jessica

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 1 04:28:24 2022 No.19668153 >>19656442 this is fucking golden

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 1 10:47:48 2022 No.19669298 >>19668106 What are your thoughts on >>19659198 ?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 1 11:07:01 2022 No.19669343 File: 78 KB, 1300x580, Dune v 40k.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19657446

Anonymous Sat Jan 1 12:33:14 2022 No.19669650

>>19669298
the biggest thing the bene gesserit care about is their breeding program and their influence over leaders. Initially all Jessica was trying to do was test whether or not Alia, and the twins were abominations these were the standing orders for gurney, and IIRC after Jessicas capture she had no way to change Gurneys orders so he proceeded to capture and torture Leto by force feeding him melange in an effort to see if he would suffer the same fate as Alia. Jessica post capture has her goals change to the situation to be more inline with the BG she finds herself with the opportunity to not only recover the BGs breeding program after Paul told them to get bent (which she was fine with at the time since its her son) but also to put a BG pawn on the throne. The idea being that she would wed ghanima to farad'n then have Alia killed and just like Paul Farad'n would become the next emperor.

Duncan is more simple, he got cucked by Alia/Harkonen and was one of the first to really see what had happened to Alia, his last orders from Alia were to abduct or murder Jessica which was an affront to his sense of loyalty so he had a work around by sending Jessica to Farad'n. Following that he returned to Arakis and by this point it was known to Alia that he was rogue so he couldnt go back to her. Both out of a desire to end his own life and to get Stilgar to abandon his state of neutrality he killed Alias aid in front of stilgar then antagonized him to the point stilgar killed him to preserve his honor however this forced him to abandon his sietch taking only his most loyal followers and the attreides family members. Duncan is not controlled by anybody after Jessica releases him from his service to the Atreides.

Alia I think controlled the Jacrutu Fremen but not the Shuloch ones Paul mentions this I believe when hes talking with Leto, If Alia had influence over Shuloch then he wouldnt be able to do what he did all the time.

I may be missing something here or there but I finished the book like a week ago so its still pretty fresh on my mind.

Anonymous Sat Jan 1 13:24:16 2022 No.19669856

>>19669650
>Jessica post capture has her goals change to the situation to be more inline with the BG she finds herself with the opportunity to not only recover the BGs breeding program after Paul told them to get bent (which she was fine with at the time since its her son) but also to put a BG pawn on the throne.
this makes sense, but in the book, doesnt she think to herself, while in captivity, that the BG were originally just using her and casting her aside? They coerced her to test the twins and Alia with blackmail of her Harkonnen heritage, but in captivity at Salusa Secundus she realizes this. And then she still reverts back to the BG again, fully?

Also, and this is what confuses me the most, in her scene with Duncan where he renounces Atreides loyalty, she asks him
>"Why are you here?"
he answers
>"For the same reason you're here, My Lady"
and then she starts thinking:
>Does he really know why I'm here? How could he? Only Ghanima knew.
so what the fuck does she mean by that? Her plan at this point is supposedly as you said, plant Ghanima+Faradn as a BG on the throne to allow the BG to control the empire again. But Ghanima and Leto have their own plans. Leto tells Jessica to allow herself to be capture, and she does. That makes it seem like shes following Leto's plan at that point, but shes still having him tested? It's all fucking tied up and im confused

>Alia I think controlled the Jacrutu Fremen but not the Shuloch ones
this makes sense, but i think they are the same group of Fremen. what really happened now that i think more on it is that Alia thought she was using the Fremen of Jacrutu, but they were also using her. I don't know why though. Why did they ally with her? Javid was Namri's son and also a member of the Jacrutu/Shuloch Fremen who allied with her, but the Corrinos mention Javid is their spy and Jessica says Javid secretly hates Alia. Were they just using her to cause the downfall of the imperium so they could all revert to traditional fremen ways?

also, why do the fremen of shuloch sell sandtrout and worms off planet? at Paul behest, no less?

Anonymous Sat Jan 1 13:56:23 2022 No.19670009

>>19669856
>also, why do the fremen of shuloch sell sandtrout and worms off planet? at Paul behest, no less?
I think it was because the terraforming of Arrakis was going to make the sandworms extinct, leading to no more spice and the collapse of the imperium. Paul maybe tried to avoid that by creating new Dune planets, while Leto just captured and hoarded all of the universe's spice and alloted it himself.

Anonymous Sat Jan 1 14:09:59 2022 No.19670063

>>19669856
>but in the book, doesnt she think to herself, while in captivity, that the BG were originally just using her and casting her aside? They coerced her to test the twins and Alia with blackmail of her Harkonnen heritage, but in captivity at Salusa Secundus she realizes this. And then she still reverts back to the BG again, fully?
A fair question, but by this point Jessica had just been abducted by Duncan, and before that Alia almost had her publicly assassinated in her own court no less. She does reflect that she regretted leaving in the first place and allowing Alia to become an abomination, even though the BG are coercing Jessica it seems their goals align with each others with the exception being the BG would prefer all 3 being killed rather than go through with all the fuss. As for why what does she have to lose anymore? Pauls dead in her mind, her daughter was an abomination who tried to murder her, and the twins would have to be tested to make sure they wont suffer a similar fate as alia, by this point her strongest bond is with the BG, since the atreides seem unrecoverable in her mind.

as for that exchange with duncan im not really sure, I think duncan is trying to say hes trying to save atreides his own way but im not sure desu. as for Jessica and Leto, what other choice does Jessica have at the time? regardless of Letos plan Jessica knew she could trust Duncan to take her somewhere safe and not kill her. Maybe a bit short sighted on her part but by this point Jessica trusted Duncan before he immediately betrayed her in his own way.

>Were they just using her to cause the downfall of the imperium so they could all revert to traditional fremen ways?
that was my interpretation, as the fremen that remain in the old ways seem to despise the new religion built around maub'dib despite their veneration for him, but I dont have a lot of information to go off this.

>why do the fremen of shuloch sell sandtrout and worms off planet? at Paul behest, no less?
Paul allowed it because he knew there would be no harm in it, he and Leto both know that attempts off world to replicate the sandworm lifecycle would be doomed to fail. so really there was no harm selling the things to people for a hefty sum, these guys were smugglers after all.

Anonymous Sat Jan 1 15:48:53 2022 No.19670510

>>19670063
>as for that exchange with duncan im not really sure, I think duncan is trying to say hes trying to save atreides his own way but im not sure desu. as for Jessica and Leto, what other choice does Jessica have at the time? regardless of Letos plan Jessica knew she could trust Duncan to take her somewhere safe and not kill her. Maybe a bit short sighted on her part but by this point Jessica trusted Duncan before he immediately betrayed her in his own way.
i guess im mainly confused about how much jessicas and ghanimas/letos plans intertwined. clearly jessica was used perfectly to create faradn for leto/ghanima. but to what extent was her plan overlapping into theirs? what does she mean by "only ghanima knew" ?

Anonymous Sat Jan 1 16:12:10 2022 No.19670619

>>19670510
id have to go back and reread ghanima and jessicas interaction near the beginning then because im not sure what she meant by that either, and at a certain point Ghanima becomes more of a plot point than an actual character as Leto is the one really driving the plot from their schemes.
As for overlap I think it was just farad'n, though unintentionally the force feeding of melange to awaken his prescience did help him along the golden path so I guess thats another overlap although Leto initially wanted nothing to do with it. without his awakening he never would have created his community consciousness or completed his plans.

>>19670009
perhaps I misremembered, but I could have a sworn Paul knew the sandtrout gambit would fail, and he had a conversation about it. maybe im thinking of Leto.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 1 17:59:18 2022 No.19671155 >>19656027 The US had CIA meddling in Vietnam long before Kennedy was president and Nixon took the US out of Vietnam. It was Johnson who went all-in on Vietnam and he was definitely not a charismatic leader.

Anonymous Sat Jan 1 19:30:34 2022 No.19671593

>>19670619
>perhaps I misremembered, but I could have a sworn Paul knew the sandtrout gambit would fail, and he had a conversation about it. maybe im thinking of Leto.
Even if it isnt explicitly said they knew, both of them did know. Paul had them do it for money because he knew the worms wouldnt live off world. I dont know why he wanted to get the cast out fremen to get more money though

Anonymous Sat Jan 1 21:54:00 2022 No.19672262

>>19670619
Selling the sandworms not only is basically printing money for the Fremen, but it also outs the enemies of the Atreides, since the only people who want to grow sandworms off-planet are ones who want to undermine and contest the Atreides base of power.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 1 22:16:10 2022 No.19672369 >...the Tawrah and Talmudic Zabur surviving on Salusa Secundus... t. Appendix II, The Religion of Dune

Anonymous Sat Jan 1 23:58:57 2022 No.19672764

why is Frank such shit at writing satisfying conclusions for all but the main characters?
Gurney's last appearance is him wondering what the fuck Leto is doing
Stilgars last appearance is him grumbling that Leto cucked everyone
Jessica's last appearance is being angry Leto played her
Paul last appearance is literally off screen
So was Chani's

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 2 00:59:56 2022 No.19672974 >>19672764 Something something only the rulers and great men matter in the bigger picture.

Anonymous Sun Jan 2 07:17:40 2022 No.19674102

>>19672764
I would say its his overall style.
Like what the fuck is an ornithopter ? or sandtrout for that matter, he describes the function but no description of appearance.
For being several hundred pages long, Dune moves a lightning pace. Its kinda a fun contrast to the new movie.

Anonymous Sun Jan 2 07:23:05 2022 No.19674120

>>19674102

It's a great story, but it's pretty badly written. Tons of shit are brought up, and never really explained, and really doesn't make any sense even when jackass revisionists try to come in and explain it.

Like, what the hell was the point of the Dune Tarot? So....for one, tarot cards like just, magically work now? And it actually throws off the prescience of the two super humans in the universe, because some jackasses are fucking around with cards?

It's either just poorly thought out, and explained, or it's literally just herbert saying, "you know all this prescience stuff is just bs anyway, right? These are just junky drug addicts hallucinating shit."

Anonymous Sun Jan 2 07:37:42 2022 No.19674162

>>19674120
Wouldn't say its badly written, only autists need every detail to be explained. Not over describing is one of its strengths because u get wildly different interpretations. Just look at this thread, no one can agree on anything. except for Duncan being gay

Anonymous Sun Jan 2 11:18:11 2022 No.19674992

>>19674120
Did the dune tarot actually affect anything? I remember it being mentioned and didnt think it had any consequences which is why i didnt care about it not being explained
>>19674162
Plotwise this thread has been confused but reach agreed upon conclusions, thematically there are disagreements which is a hallmark of good, not bad writing generally

Anonymous Sun Jan 2 12:16:16 2022 No.19675256

>>19674162
>Wouldn't say its badly written, only autists need every detail to be explained

That's not the only reason i'd say it's badly written. I mean, for one, it's pretty rambling and long winded (even though it somehow doesn't explain a lot) in it's descriptions. The dialog is kinda confusing and clunky. He has that annoying habit of writing down the characters thoughts, even though most of the time it's apparent what they're thinking just from what they're saying. A lot of the double dialog things are kind of annoying and confusing:

>"Yes, i would like some spice chocolate, thank you," he said, but using his bindu-pradu-philisophico-body-mind-voice-oil-control he intoned another message of, "You're no true mother you harlot! Your womb is bare as sand worm shit, and you smell like some kind of rodent. Ha, ha, bitch! Come at me harder next time!!!"

Like....what?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 2 13:41:30 2022 No.19675615 >>19675256 >Yes, i would like some spice chocolate, thank you," he said, but using his bindu-pradu-philisophico-body-mind-voice-oil-control he intoned another message of, Truely the anime of litrature.

Anonymous Sun Jan 2 15:31:30 2022 No.19676038

>>19672764

There's some pretty inexplicable character arcs too. Like Irulan. So chani dies and:

>St. violent chainsaw death of the irrepressable cooch lady: Hey paul, Irulan says she'll tutor the children and be totally good to them!!!
>Mohandas Deebhi: Oh yeah? Weird, because like a week ago she was actively trying to kill all of us, and she did just poison my immortal beloved to death here. But uh....what's up again? You trust her?
>St. violent chainsaw death of the irrepressable cooch lady: Tots.
>Mohandas Deebhi: Oh alright, good enough for me.
>And then the bitch is good from here on out, for some reason.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 2 16:02:04 2022 No.19676132 >God isn't real bro I always got a very theist vibe from Dune.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 2 16:04:33 2022 No.19676144 >>19676132 I always got a kind of "If you think putting your faith in god is dumb, then try putting your faith in these wack jobs," kind of feel from it.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 2 16:35:25 2022 No.19676311 >>19658968 Good post and good thread over all.

Anonymous Sun Jan 2 16:38:11 2022 No.19676328
File: 61 KB, 1200x500, 1640998486937.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>19655917
How much are you missing if you go straight from Dune to this? Dune was good but I don't know if I have enough of an attention span to get through Messiah and Children of Dune just for the sake of reading God Emperor.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 2 16:49:34 2022 No.19676378 Thread got derailed by one retarded faggot kek. Also, 40k simps cope harder.

Anonymous Sun Jan 2 19:01:36 2022 No.19677189

>>19676328
Messaiah is legit good novel.
Children i would say u could read sparknotes and be happy with it. Having just finished God Emporer i would even say its my favourite of the 3 latter. Even if talking worm man was fun and duncan.

But can anyone sell me on the 5th book, feel no real urge to continue.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 2 19:07:11 2022 No.19677216 >>19676144 >>19676132 I always got the impression it was more of a criticism of theology as whole and not necessarily the deity they worship hence how Shai Hulud is still worshipped and not nearly as criticized in universe as the church and Paul/Leto.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 2 19:09:18 2022 No.19677232 >>19677189 >But can anyone sell me on the 5th book, MATTRESSES

Anonymous Sun Jan 2 19:18:10 2022 No.19677292

>>19677216

Well yeah, that's kind of my point. I don't think it criticizes god, or theism, but rather how religion is easily warped and used as weapon. Something there is value in individuals worshiping, but when you get these assholes together and organize the whole thing, it always goes to shit.

Anonymous Sun Jan 2 19:22:35 2022 No.19677326

>>19677189
>Children i would say u could read sparknotes and be happy with it

It's a bit overly long yeah, and longwinded. I don't know if editing standards were different back then, but a lot of needless sentences can be cut. I'm actually re-reading it right now, and honestly i find myself just skimming it more than anything. like

>Ok yada yada, blah blah, more useless dumb thoughts from this character that go nowhere and really have nothing to do with anything, and then this character opens his mouth and says some dumb shit that doesn't really matter, yada yada, ok maybe next chapter something will actually happen.

>Hmm...Stilgar contemplating killing the twins for 5 pages, you know, you could have done that in one paragraph really, are we TRYING to blot up space here?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 2 19:33:22 2022 No.19677384 >>19676328 Children has great action sequences and the best plotting and court intrigue in the entire series

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 2 20:06:09 2022 No.19677559 File: 73 KB, 800x778, jiublaugh.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19656442

Anonymous Sun Jan 2 20:09:17 2022 No.19677580

>>19658713
>>19658968
It's been 11 years since I read it, but I remember this being pretty much my take. For a series with tons of exposition, the Golden Path lacks clarity, and I get the feeling Herbert didn't know where he was taking the story when he started.

God Emperor has the coolest ideas. One of the problems with Messiah was that Paul is still Paul after attaining this new level of inhuman prescience. It helps that he is relatable, but I wanted to see what a truly inhuman comprehension, intellect, and ability to predict looked like. God Emperor had more of that, and I loved it, but I will say I recall the plot being far less dynamic and propulsive. The drama of the Golden Path never came into focus for me.

There is a fantasy series that borrows a lot from Dune called The Darkness That Comes Before. I think it did the Golden Path thing better overall, drawing a clearer utilitarian nightmare, where on one side you have absolutely psychopathic means being wielded to get power, but on the other hand a very creepy evil opposition that could justify it. But the real trick is that, that's not even the main dilemma as you step back, it's actually closer Dune's in that it's about the value of one person, or a handful of people being truly free, versus a world of people enslaved to their desires and animal instincts who go around raping and killing each other. But that series has its own weaknesses that make me like it less than Dune at times because it has over the top violence all the time, over the top sexual violence, and all the characters are generally awful, which I guess is the point. And it's a bit too long to get to the point. The Mentat-like characters are much more inhuman and lacking in relatable passion or morality, which seemed more plausible for me.

So maybe some day will do another similar work and get it just right.

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/lit/ - Literature