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19633272 No.19633272 [Reply] [Original]

What are some books for people who believe in God but despise religious/spiritual institutions? It's very clear that we were either created by God or are a part of God, and even though I find the Bible and other spiritual texts fascinating to read and recognize their importance, I just can't be pulled into the cultish behaviors of organized religion. Just seems silly to me, but what do I know. Post some books you find relevant and discuss

>> No.19633274

>>19633272
Joseph Campbell
Carl Jung

>> No.19633291

>>19633272
I focus on unity and ignore what's not more unitous (which is farther from God definitionally).
I think unitarian universalism, bahaiism, perennialism etc are like this.

>> No.19633297

>>19633272
Spinoza and Thomas Paine comes to mind. Maybe Herman Melville as well, though he was a bit perennial.

>> No.19633320

>>19633272
>What are some books for people who believe in God but despise religious/spiritual institutions?
Tolstoj got excommunicated by the Orthodox Church (thanks to Pobedonoscev - friend of Dosto - I think), even went so far as to say that the only actual law that matter is God's Law, not human law, making him effectively an anarchist a label he either didn't like or never even considered)

Resurrection is probably the best one for this part of his thought. Check if you can get his "Letters to the Tzars" (Idk if it has been translated in English)

>> No.19633322

Faust

>> No.19633339

Boehme

>> No.19633340

>>19633272
Pseudo Dionysius the areopagite. Early theological works that read a bit more like mysticism than doctrine but is largely overlooked (unjustly).

>> No.19633350

>>19633272
>It's very clear that we were either created by God or are a part of God

No, have you ever taken out your rose colored lenses and saw how utterly chaotic, brutal and unfair reality is ? Unless you believe in some sort of evil gnostic style deity, it’s very clear there isn’t a perfect, well meaning God

>> No.19633390

>>19633350
Boy howdy do atheists seeth like no other. Op never even gave god qualities in his post, let alone say that god is “perfect” and “well meaning.” A god creator or god being who’s existence is the crux of reality, is not inconsistent with things that are chaotic and brutal. There is also a kind of narcissism in saying we know for certain that their isn’t order in the chaos beyond our current understanding. or that bad things that happen are brutal when we could just be missing the full extent of the implications of the “brutal” event let, never mind the fact that it could just be a natural, unchangeable consequence of something that is necessary for the whole of existence to be.

>> No.19633398

>>19633350
Being created by god /= god is perfect and well-meaning

See Azathoth, the Blind Idiot God which bubbles and blasphemes at the center of all infinity

>> No.19633403

>>19633390
>i-its an atheism!
Stop assuming. See >>19633398

>> No.19633418

>>19633350
>and saw how utterly chaotic, brutal and unfair reality is ?
God is a comedian. He is not burdened by a flawed essence, as Cervantes wrote once. Tragedy is not the character of the world, it is the character of ourselves. If you don't believe the world is a comedy, as the Abrahamics do, you will be swallowed up and spit out by your own virulence.

>> No.19633433

>>19633418
How lucky you are to be so detached from the suffering of the world
Teach me your ways edgy faggot

>> No.19633439

>>19633272
You would probably like Puritanism. Read Milton's prose works. The relation to God should be direct, and not mediated by any material forces.

>> No.19633440

>>19633433
laugh, for what else can you do?

>> No.19633442

>>19633433
Who says I'm detached? I suffer just as good as anyone else.

>> No.19633452

How do I deactivate the snow and santa hat?

>> No.19633455

>>19633452
>How do I deactivate the snow and santa hat?
Change your style on the bottom right of the webpage.

>> No.19633458

>>19633440
I dunno, maybe try and change things for the better? Good I fucking hate stoics.

>> No.19633471

>>19633403
That’s literally what i said. Why you want me to read that. Also the assumption of that post being by an atheist is well founded based on the fact that he claims that we were not created by or a part of a god. Sounds like a pretty atheistic friend.

>> No.19633477

>>19633458
It's funnier to actively make things worse so I just do that

>> No.19633490

>>19633272
it's not really about religion, but siddartha was really good

>> No.19633528

>>19633477
Nice dude ur like the joker

>> No.19633541
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19633541

>>19633528
Wowww, yeah I guess so. I never thought about that but I guess I am kind of like the joker. That's kind of sick.

>> No.19633555

>>19633272
I think the essential thing about God is that we are not part of him. He is outside us, he created us and everything but we arent him. There is something inside of us which sort of speaks to God, is given by him, but it's not actually God.

If you dont see him this way then you very easily fall into a kind of spiritual arrogance since you contain within you the godhead.

>> No.19633566

>>19633555
>If you dont see him this way then you very easily fall into a kind of spiritual arrogance
>spiritual arrogance
You mean like you're doing right now?

>> No.19633581

>>19633566
Why do you think I'm spiritually arrogant? My point is that you have to totally submit to something beyond you in spiritual matters, like total spiritual humility

>> No.19633599

>>19633581
>If you believe differently from me then you are spiritually arrogant
That's a highly ironic proposition

>> No.19633602

>>19633555
My instinctive feeling is that everything is existence is an infinitely small facet of God, and there is no beginning nor end to reality

>> No.19633609

>>19633455
Thanks
>>19633471
>That’s literally what i said
Yeah, and I wrote it, an atheist. So the idea that "a-atheist!" cannot reach your same conclusion is retarded

>> No.19633618

>>19633599
N-NO, IT ISN'T!

>> No.19633619

>>19633599
I said if you believe God is in you it can lead to spiritual arrogance because then you think "I am god" in some sense, does that not make sense? There are other ways to disagree with me that I wouldn't say lead to arrogance so that isnt the deciding factor, it's just this specific thing.

I could be wrong obviously, I'm not infallible, but everyone has to have a point of view which will exclude other points of view, so you could call anyone arrogant with this logic.

>> No.19633626

>>19633619
You're making the mistake of assuming individual people actually exist

>> No.19633635

>>19633626
Well it seems obvious to me that different people exist, or you could know for example what Im thinking right now, but obviously you cannot.

>> No.19633654

>>19633635
You are not what you think you are. It's a matter of perspective

>> No.19633658

>>19633654
I dont agree personally. I think we can know ourselves as distinct things created by God.

>> No.19633663

>>19633619
>spiritual arrogance because then you think "I am god" in some sense, does that not make sense?
No because that does not necessarily logically follow. Someone could think "I am God therefore I am better than you" or they could think "I am God but that does not mean that I am better than you" for example if they think that every human being is divine or if they think that every spiritual perspective is valid or even if they think they are divine but are not so certain of the fact that they would somehow try to impose their view on others by remaining open to other possibilities.

>> No.19633669

>>19633663
It doesn't necessarily follow, but I think it is a tendency. People often then start thinking they can know the ultimate nature of reality and stuff

>> No.19633697

>>19633669
>People often then start thinking they can know the ultimate nature of reality and stuff
It's a tendency of everyone who thinks about spirituality in general. Probably the majority of Jews, Christians, and Muslims believe that their understanding of divinity is superior to others despite believing that God is not a part of them and a seperate entity. Believing God is a part of you or not isn't even well correlated with spiritual arrogance. I would actually wager that people who believe God is them or part of them are less likely to be spiritually arrogant but that would just be a guess.

>> No.19633710

>>19633697
Believing your understanding of spirituality is superior to others is not what I mens by arrogance because everyone by definition believes that if they have an opinion at all. I mean thinking you know everything about spiritual questions rather than thinking much is a mystery beyond our comprehension.

>> No.19633761

>>19633710
>I mean thinking you know everything about spiritual questions rather than thinking much is a mystery beyond our comprehension.
If you follow any religion with a dogma to the point where you exclude the possibility of anything else being possible then you are thinking you know everything about spiritual questions. Just because you leave a few questions unanswered and mysterious doesn't mean this isn't true. If I believe in the hypostatic union but I think "how is it logically possible that someone could be both fully human and fully divine at the same time? I guess it's a mystery" is still spiritual arrogance because you still believe you know absolutely for sure that there is definitely a hypostatic union but that the logical understanding of it is fundamentally unknowable. Basically you do believe you know everything because you believe that the few things that you don't know are impossible to know in the first place, and you know for certain of that fact.

>> No.19633779

>>19633761
I dont see it that way myself, I think there is a difference between saying "I dont know and I dont think we can know" and "I think I know everything".

>> No.19633813

>>19633609
My point wasn’t that an atheist couldn’t come to the same conclusion about what god would have to be like. My point was that the original poster (whose post clearly indicated an atheistic perspective) felt the need to come in and make an argument about something the op didn’t even say, presumably because he saw a post that presupposed the existence of a god which made him seeth uncontrollably which compelled him to post. The rest of post was a direct response to a separate claim that he made so as to continue an interesting, all be it different from the intended, discussion about gods qualities. Can’t help but think that the miss interpretation of my post by another atheist claiming that I somehow think all atheist are incapable of coming to the same conclusion as myself stems from an inferiority complex that results in yet another facet of the infinite depth of atheist seeth. (Btw I am claiming that atheists seeth like no other. It’s almost impressive).

>> No.19633875

>>19633813
>miss interpretation
Learn how to spell

>> No.19633895

>>19633875
Ha gotta hit my spelling. Peak comedy.

>> No.19633925

>>19633779
>"I dont know and I dont think we can know"
This is a mischaracterization of Abrahamism. Abrahamists claim that they know what is possible to know and that they don't know what they know is impossible to know.

>> No.19633953

>>19633272
Tao Te Ching

>> No.19633958

>>19633925
There are many different views in the abrahamic religions about knowledge. I am saying what I think perosnally

>> No.19634070

>>19633272
Vishishtadvaita Vedanta discusses God in a neutral and abstract sense. You probably won't run into many religious nuts or fundamentalism there. I would recommend skimming through the Isha, Kena, and Katha Upanishads.

>> No.19634109

>>19633958
Ok but if it all depends on your view of knowledge then it has little or nothing to do with whether you believe God is inside or outside of you, going back to the original point.

>> No.19634127

>>19634109
I think there is a tendency for people who believe God is in them to be more arrogant about knowing everything than people who believe God is outside them.

>> No.19634554

Bump for interest

>> No.19634604
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19634604

>> No.19634689
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19634689

>>19633272

>> No.19634694

>>19634689
giga based

>> No.19634710

>>19633390
>There is also a kind of narcissism in saying we know for certain that their isn’t order in the chaos beyond our current understanding
Far more narcissistic is to take your baseless speculation that you are in possession of supra-rational knowledge because you read a book as something which makes you a better person

>> No.19634717

>>19633581
>i am just a lowly worm before the master
this is your mind on Abrahamism

>> No.19634997

>>19634710
Never said that I had any such knowledge let alone that a book could give it to you. As a matter of fact I believe that our limitations as humans makes it impossible for us to have the kind of complete knowledge required to understand the universe / god completely. That is also not to say that we shouldn’t try to get as close as possible. Trying to apply qualities to me when I have never stated anything of the sort is further seeth and it’s really remarkable stuff.

>> No.19635146

>>19634127
Demonstrably untrue

>> No.19635447

>>19634997
>Never said that I had any such knowledge
Then stop larping as a theologian since you don't know anything about god beyond imaginary descriptions written up by priests

>> No.19635564

>>19633272
>It's very clear that we were either created by God or are a part of God

Source?

>> No.19635613

>>19633272
Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and youll snap out of it anon. Trust me if i can get, you can. God bless, Jesus loves you.

>> No.19635614

>>19635564
What else would we be

>> No.19635629

>>19635613
I'm sure Jesus does love me, and I love him cause he was a great man. But I'm not gonna pretend to eat his body and blood by eating crackers and drinking wine. I won't do that. But Jesus is cool.

>> No.19635634

Studying reality, any part of it, ideas, the physical elements in all their forms and interactions in the universe, studying how a dog walks or anatomy while becoming a surgeon, it’s all a way of studying the creator of reality, you are studying the silhouette of whatever divinity may be, but you are never studying the subject itself, we as a species have not gotten that far, we haven’t conquered the physical world, not even in the slightest, can’t even harness all the energy in a drop of water, people are knowledgeable but were not yet wise, know a lot from observation, like trivia can recite facts and laws of universe, don’t understand how it works though

>> No.19635637
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19635637

>>19633272
Big Head

>> No.19635663

>>19635629
>pretend
It's not pretend my brother kek it's the most intimate gesture of love the trinity has ever extend towards us, he offers to us the opportunity to enter the divine life so deeply and totally, its unfathomable and inexplicable fully in this lifetime, we can be one with Christ not in spirit but in body too, its literal spiritual energy made flesh activates by true faith, but to the unwilling its just bread, thast the subversive humor of God, to one who sees grabage the other sees treasure, all in hidden plain sight of course, the body blood and divinity of christ masked in the Eucharist, so that we can love him for who he is, for his actual chracter, love through and through, love itself, the ineffably formless origin of all existence, goodness itself

>> No.19635711

>>19635663
Op here, see this is precisely the shit I can't deal with. Don't you see how corny this is? I can accept believing Jesus is sinless, a prophetic and moral man and we should all attempt to live like him and walk with God. But to suggest that we become one with a man who died 2k years ago by eating a damn cracker is the most retarded shit I've ever heard

>> No.19635743

>>19635711
anon, i dont expect you to believe it right away, most wont, thats why all left except 12, literally because of this specific teaching coincidently lmao, all ill say is be open to the promptings of the spirit, pray much, desire the truth and trust God will lead you, dont fight it, be open and docile to the spirit, anyway ill shut up up, see you in heaven God bless, Merry christmas!

>> No.19635794

>>19633320
Yep, Resurrection was my first thought too. Although I don't think it's the main theme. It's just one of Tolstoj's patented tangents.
>>19633350
if god real why bad thing happen????

>> No.19636275

>>19635447
Wow you really are butt hurt eh? All because someone wanted some alternative sources on god that is outside the standard doctrines. This is the power of maximum seeth. I’d be impressed if I wasn’t so sad for you.

>> No.19637974

>>19635613
I snapped out of christianity when I read the dhammapada

>> No.19638148

The varieties of religious experience by william james

>> No.19639195

>>19633272
>What are some books for people who believe in God but despise religious/spiritual institutions?
Tolstoy's essays

>> No.19639357

>>19636275
>i called the atheist names that means god is saved

>> No.19639418

>>19639357
I called no names. I just made observations. Is this really the quality of reading comprehension on a literature board? Also not here to defend god. Just call out dumb shit and talk unconventional sources of theological thought.

>> No.19639505

>>19639418
>unconventional sources of theological thought.
What, you mean like Spinoza or William James? You don't seem to have put any forward. You've just been what-if'ing about an order that could exist and could be god. It's weak.

>> No.19639574

>>19639505
I did put one forward. I recommended Pseudo Dionysius. I’m also not the only one that has been responding to this thread. I have not put any what if statements forward. You do know how this website works right? If you don’t trip fag you are labels as anonymous, no matter who you are or how many posts you make. I don’t think you could accurately tell me, right now, which of these posts are mine and witch aren’t. So you are just talking out your ass.