Lewisbros...

[Anonymous No.19600755]

>The story was largely finished by the end of the Christmas vacation in 1948. Two months later, Jack (C.S Lewis) read it to Tolkien. Jack had always been constructively helpful and sympathetic with Tolkien’s writing, and he probably expected similar treatment. He was hurt, astonished, and discouraged when Tolkien said that he thought the book was almost worthless, that it seemed like a jumble of unrelated mythologies. Because Aslan, the fauns, the White Witch, Father Christmas, the nymphs, and Mr. and Mrs. Beaver had quite distinct mythological or imaginative origins, Tolkien thought that it was a terrible mistake to put them together in Narnia, a single imaginative country. The effect was incongruous and, for him, painful. But Jack argued that they existed happily together in our minds in real life. Tolkien replied, “Not in mine, or at least not at the same time.”

>Tolkien never changed his view. He so strongly detested Jack’s assembling figures from various mythologies in his children’s books that he soon gave up trying to read them. He also thought they were carelessly and superficially written.

>Jack had a high opinion of Tolkien’s judgment and was distressed and disconcerted by his harsh response, especially since he himself had little confidence in the merits of his story. Were it not for friends who praised it highly, he might never have published it.

[Anonymous No.19600765]

>The lady is quite right to refute what she thinks bad theistic arguments, but does this not almost oblige her as a Christian to find good ones in their place: having obliterated me as an Apologist ought she not to succeed me?
CS Lewis on Elizabeth Anscombe (The Collected Letters of CS Lewis, p. 35)

Lewisbros…

[Anonymous No.19600771]

>>19600765
Anscombe was /ourgirl/

[Anonymous No.19600778]

>>19600755
Honestly, if Lewis was a good friend of Tolkien's he should have realised that his mythology scholar autism would have made him a bad judge.

[Anonymous No.19600787]

>>19600755
>I will by no means join in the modern depreciation of Wagner. He may, for all I know, have been a bad man. He may (though I shall never believe it) have been a bad musician. But as a mythopoeic poet he is incomparable.

Wagner > Tolkien

[Anonymous No.19600791]

>Tolkien was bothered by this scene because Lewis was distorting and sentimentalizing the myth ("Narnian Exile" 41). He suggests, "[I]f Lucy had really met a faun--that is, a satyr--the result would have been a rape, not a tea party" (Christopher, C.S. Lewis 111).

[Anonymous No.19600793]

Why does every anecdote about Tolkien’s personal life makes him seem insufferable?

[Anonymous No.19600815]

>>19600765
I never knew Anscombe and Lewis were on bad terms. I always thought their views were pretty similar, like in Abolition of Man

[Anonymous No.19600816]

>"So far I have felt the normal feelings of a man of my age—like an old tree that is losing all its leaves one by one: This feels like an axe-blow near the roots," Tolkien wrote to his daughter Priscilla four days after Lewis's death.

[Anonymous No.19600817]

>>19600791
kek

[Anonymous No.19600839]

>>19600815
They weren’t on bad terms, personally. Anscombe just presented a paper at the Oxford Club defending the philosophical viability of naturalism (which nevertheless she didn’t believe in) against Lewis’ ‘argument from reason’ as presented in ‘Miracles’.

[Anonymous No.19600842]

>>19600755
Didn't Tolkien basically rip off Norse mythologies (the ring, the dwarves, dragons) and mix them with Christian bullshit about father god, good and evil, the messiah, etc? Maybe he just didn't want any competition from Lewis

[Anonymous No.19600846]

>>19600755
Narnia was the first shitty YA fantasy book, it just predated all the others by several decades.

t. doesn't even dislike Lewis/Narnia

[Anonymous No.19600856]

>>19600791
What a fucking autist, but a funny autist.

[Anonymous No.19600859]

>>19600793
undiagnosed autism

[Anonymous No.19600861]

>>19600791
>you can't just like the aesthetic idea of something and want to present it in a way your young children can enjoy OK!? It HAS to have the same rapey and sadomasochistic undertones it had when the Greeks wrote about a vaguely similar being 2500 years ago!!
Tolkien sounds kind of autistic here ngl

[Anonymous No.19601330]

>>19600861
Yes, Tolkein had standards, unlike the manchildren of today. He studied mythology, he knew his shit. And it's true that Narnia as a mythological/fantasy story is inferior to Lord of the Rings. I enjoyed the books a lot as a kid, but even as a kid I could tell that the story lacked teeth.

[Anonymous No.19601353]

The space trilogy>Narnia
Imagine not being a Lewischad

[Anonymous No.19601408]

>>19600791
I like Lewis but I understand the point of view of Tolkien perfectly here. I have a similar feel while reading some stories and wonder if the writers are not bothered by the implications certain figures have in their stories.

[Anonymous No.19601416]

>hates Narnia
>hates Dune
Tolkien was a surly faggot who hated authors who dabbed on his shitty ring delivery quest book

[Anonymous No.19601423]

>>19601416
Lewis was his friend, though.

[Anonymous No.19601434]

>>19600755
Tolkien was just so lost in his own autism that he would have hated anything

[Anonymous No.19601436]

>>19601353
Honestly his nonfiction is better than any of his fiction. He's at his best as a philosopher and apologist. The Abolition of Man is fucking prescient, Lewis saw what we'd be going through now more than half a century ago.

[Anonymous No.19601445]

>>19600793
pretty sure Tolkien was a raging piece of shit and probably absolutely insufferable to be around. Pure unbridled autism

[Anonymous No.19601455]

Tolkien was based and spanishpilled.
>For instance I dislike French, and prefer Spanish to Italian – but the relation of these facts to my taste in languages (which is obviously a large ingredient in The Lord of the Rings) would take a long time to unravel, and leave you liking (or disliking) the names and bits of language in my books, just as before. (1958)
>Auden has asserted that for me 'the North is a sacred direction'. That is not true. The North-west of Europe, where I (and most of my ancestors) have lived, has my affection, as a man's home should. I love its atmosphere, and know more of its histories and languages than I do of other pans; but it is not 'sacred', nor does it exhaust my affections. I have, for instance, a particular love for the Latin language, and among its descendants for Spanish. That it is untrue for my story, a mere reading of the synopses should show. The North was the seat of the fortresses of the Devil. The progress of the tale ends in what is far more like the re-establishment of an effective Holy Roman Empire with its seat in Rome than anything that would be devised by a 'Nordic'. (1967)

[Anonymous No.19601458]

>>19600842
>Didn't Tolkien basically rip off Norse mythologies (the ring, the dwarves, dragons) and mix them with Christian bullshit about father god, good and evil, the messiah, etc?
mmm no

[Anonymous No.19601463]

>>19601455
>Holy Roman Empire
Absolutely based

[Anonymous No.19601467]

>>19601455
>H
>R
>E

[Anonymous No.19601473]

>>19601467
Voltaire can cope all he wants, but it was Holy, it was the new Rome and it was an Empire.

[Anonymous No.19601476]

>>19601473
sounds like you're the one coping

[Anonymous No.19601478]

>>19601455
Behold the power of English Catholics. No wonder there are so few of them, if there were too many the world couldn't handle it.

[Anonymous No.19601479]

>>19601455
>The progress of the tale ends in what is far more like the re-establishment of an effective Holy Roman Empire
Somewhere in Paradise Charlemagne and Charles V are smiling.

[Anonymous No.19601485]

>>19601476
>No u
You can do better than that

[Anonymous No.19601492]

>>19601479
I mean, Gondor and Arnor as Eastern Rome and Western Rome is kind of obvious. Arnor, the fallen outpost of the great empire of Man in the West, brought low by evil forces. Gondor, the empire in the East, which has seen severe diminishment and now faces a final, desperate siege for survival.

Gondor even has a city that spans a river, like Constantinople.

Oh, man, this means Sauron and the orcs are the Turks. Kek, based Tolkien.

[Anonymous No.19601496]

>>19601492
the city on the river was also the old capital

[Anonymous No.19601533]

>Tolkien voiced support for the Nationalists (eventually led by Franco during the Spanish Civil War) upon hearing that communist Republicans were destroying churches and killing priests and nuns.[116]

>He was contemptuous of Joseph Stalin. During World War II, Tolkien referred to Stalin as "that bloodthirsty old murderer".[117]
/ourguy/

[Anonymous No.19601551]

>>19601533
One of the most /lit/ things it's possible to be is a Catholic reactionary.

[Anonymous No.19601601]

>>19601533
Absolutely based

[Anonymous No.19601641]

>>19600755
>he might never have published it.
And the world would have been better for it. Gay ass useless books. I swear we would be better off as a species if 95% of the content that is produced just wasn't.

[Anonymous No.19601843]

>>19601641
yeah, like your post

[Anonymous No.19601858]

>>19600816
Manly tear.

[Anonymous No.19601903]

I was flipping thru his letters and he called the Powys brothers the "enemy", called Llewelyn a "lunatic" and thanked his friend for warning him about their cursed, unwholesome literature.

[Anonymous No.19602101]

>>19600791
Wow, maybe Lewis should've taken some of Tolkien's suggestions to heart.

[Anonymous No.19602190]

>>19600755
There's something to that
I aesthetically appreciate all these component mythologies drawn on by Lewis, but as their own things and in their own contexts

The 1001 Nights or Aladdin, Greek plays or Ovid's poetry,

Wow, Tolkien really puts it so well here, I've always wondered why the Narnia books felt so tacky to me even as a child myself, in comparison to Tolkien's stuff

[Anonymous No.19602766]

>>19601641
Seethe. Narnia is a beloved classic.

[Anonymous No.19602774]

>>19601436
He was a genius

[Anonymous No.19602784]

>>19600842
Yes. No.

[Anonymous No.19602791]

>>19601473
It was a holy larp indeed.

[Anonymous No.19602883]

>mogs Lewis
>mogs Tolkien
>before they've even written their best works
How did Howard do it?

[Anonymous No.19602905]

>>19602791
>it was Holy
Indeed

[Anonymous No.19603011]

>>19601455
Based

[Anonymous No.19603056]

>>19601463
>>19601467
>>19601478
>>19601479
>>19601533
and out come the zoom zoom tradcath larpers.

[Anonymous No.19603282]

>>19603056
>>19601455
>>19601478
>>19601533
Tolkien rules.

[Anonymous No.19603436]

take the williams pill
>>19601353
this, the space trilogy was great, and williams was a big influence on it

[Anonymous No.19603541]

>>19603436
How come no one's heard of this guy

[Anonymous No.19603664]

Both Lewis and Tolkien were geniuses but The Lord of the Rings is far better than The Chronicles of Narnia, and the Silmarillion is slightly better than The Lord of the Rings. Lewis' Space Trilogy is better than the Hobbit, though. Lewis' short fiction is better than Tolkien's and Lewis wrote many interesting short stories and the Screwtape Letters. Lewis' real talent was for nonfiction but I haven't read any of Tolkien's nonfiction. Both writers had their strengths and produced a great many treasures but I think Tolkien surpassed Lewis by a fair bit.

[Anonymous No.19603706]

>>19603664
Narnia or the Hobbit?

[Anonymous No.19603715]

>>19600861
Why call it a faun/satyr then? Its like the people who add dragons to stories and don't have them as monsters. They only do that because they cannot invent something to occupy that space on their own.

[Anonymous No.19603716]

>>19603541
those who have have, those who have not will hear about it from those who have
here's a lecture on his arthurian poetry for your troubles:
https://youtu.be/eP9C7SaYEC8

[Anonymous No.19603753]

>>19603664
>Both Lewis and Tolkien were geniuses
kek

[Anonymous No.19603895]

>read the inklings
>listen to yes
anyone else?

[Anonymous No.19603900]

>>19600842
>Didn't Tolkien basically rip off Norse mythologies (the ring, the dwarves, dragons) and mix them with Christian bullshit about father god, good and evil, the messiah, etc?
Yes, and he ripped off Irish mythology for the elves as well, and Númenor is essentially a riff on the Greek myth of Atlantis. He also has some peoples in Harad which, although left vague, are clearly drawn from the American cryptid legend of the jigaboo. So this is all rank hypocrisy on Toto's part.

[Anonymous No.19603940]

>>19601492
>orc
>Turk
>t-ork

[Anonymous No.19603962]

>>19603900
Tolkien was just more elegant about it. He didn't just put fucking Santa Claus together with Feline Jesus, talking rats, satyrs, centaurs, etc in the most kitschy way.

[Anonymous No.19603982]

>>19600755
This is the same guy who called The Worm Ouroboros unpleasant because it espouses a fundamentally cheerful, masculine philosophy. It's totally unsurprising that he would have some whiny autistic complaint about Narnia too, the only baffling thing is that Lewis somehow thought his judgment was good.

[Anonymous No.19604182]

>>19603982
>Lewis somehow thought his judgment was good.
Doesn't seem that way since he published Narnia anyway.

[Anonymous No.19604223]

>>19604182
>Jack had a high opinion of Tolkien’s judgment and was distressed and disconcerted by his harsh response, especially since he himself had little confidence in the merits of his story. Were it not for friends who praised it highly, he might never have published it.
Read the OP, nigeuner.

[Anonymous No.19604225]

>>19603962
anon, you may want to reread >>19603900
more carefully

[Anonymous No.19604961]

[Anonymous No.19605498]

>>19600791
>>19600791
based Tolkien

[Anonymous No.19605614]

>>19600755
Surprisingly, I just leafed through a collection of Narnia stories I read as a child! In general, Tolkien is right, Lewis is infinite, his stories are like an awkward collage. But I admit that he tried to develop his universe, it was getting darker and darker. Especially after two books - I still do not understand why he is all this weird shit in the Silver Chair, I thought he imitated science fiction writers of an older audience, maybe Clark Ashton Smith or Dunsany but for small children (and it didn't work). Well, the Last Battle is literally an apocalypse caused by the people of evil colored brown people lol. Even the last king is not a child or a young man, but an adult man.
He has a certain talent, but for me he raises a league of based retards - in the end, Aslan is Jesus, but this is not a smiling hippie guy, no, this Jesus is mystical, inhuman, terrifying infidel. He talks about life, death and the end times. And also sometimes takes Jerusalem and blows up trains.
It's fun.

[Anonymous No.19605692]

>>19600791
*hits pipe*
The more I read about Tolkien the higher my opinion of him becomes. He seems incredibly based

[Anonymous No.19605717]

>>19600842
This post is pretty funny considering all Norse 'mythology' is the result of Christian monks writing it down through their filter.

[Anonymous No.19605748]

>>19600842
>>19603900
You can tell this person never actually read TLotR.

[Anonymous No.19605758]

>>19601903
>he called the Powys brothers the "enemy"
Did he say why?

[Anonymous No.19605796]

>>19601492
>I mean, Gondor and Arnor as Eastern Rome and Western Rome is kind of obvious.
Maybe if you're retarded. In what way at all are they alike? Surely you're not one of those morons who thinks Rome ended in the 5th century? Arnor was completely destroyed and emptied by Angmar, Western Rome carried on largely the same as before as anyone who has read a shred of history will tell you. Try reading less /pol/ and pick up some books, maybe start with the writings of Felix Ennodius who lived at the time.

>>19601492
>Gondor even has a city that spans a river, like Constantinople.
Cities tend to be built around rivers, one could just as easily suggest Osgiliath is a parallel of St. Petersburg.

Your/pol/ inflection is forced and completely artificial.

[Anonymous No.19606538]

>>19600791
Uuuumm, wheren't fauns Roman and were said to be friendly?

[Anonymous No.19606557]

>>19603715
Sometimes people just want the image of a human-hybrid and don't necessarily need to be true to every arcane mythological footnote just to feel entitled to call something a faun/satyr/mermaid/whatever

Or you don't want to spend an entire page describing something to name it differently.

[Anonymous No.19606624]

>>19600755
>Newly released documentation about the 1961’s Nobel Prize for Literature selection process was just released. Among the revelations: that C.S. Lewis nominated his friend and fellow Inkling, J.R.R. Tolkien, for The Lord of the Rings.

>Tolkien’s nomination was rejected by the committee, with one of the committee members stating that Tolkien’s prose “has not in any way measured up to storytelling of the highest quality.” Also rejected for consideration that year were Robert Frost and E.M. Forster.

Yet the guy still nominated him for the Nobel prize. He didn't deserve a friend like that.

[Anonymous No.19606632]

>>19606538
I don't know how the Romans looked on them but Lewis was definitely drawing on an existing later reinterpretation (very popular in 18th-19th century) where they were more bucolic and harmless, for sure. Tolkien's reaction is typical of literal, genuine autism, picking one interpretation more or less arbitrarily to be the "right" one and then getting mad when people use other ones.

[Anonymous No.19606655]

>>19606632
It sounds kind of like interpretations of mermaids where there's no definitive "incarnation" of them being dangerous and murderous vs being friendly and helpful and it kind of just depends on each story. Tolkien seems like the type to be skeptical of even later Classical sources on a myth and rejecting entirely any later European reinterpretation outright.

I can see how this type of thinking would be related to autism, but I think it's just Tolkien overacademizing. Autismos can't write as deeply and nuancedly as Tolkien does.

[Anonymous No.19606692]

>>19606655
>I think it's just Tolkien overacademizing
Nah my man, the academic stance woud be doing the opposite, cataloging the various different variants without really being biased between them, ordering the developments on a timeline, etc.

[Anonymous No.19606695]

>>19606655
(But yes, your mermaid example is a good analogy, though)

[Anonymous No.19607008]

>>19606655
>but I think it's just Tolkien overacademizing
This.

[Anonymous No.19607072]

>>19600778
It makes him a great judge.

[Anonymous No.19607104]

Tolkien and Lewis actually were pretty harsh with each other, but it produced good work.

For example, when Tolkien was writing The Lord of the Rings, Lewis was helping him review and proofread it. There was one particular section of the story where Lewis kept saying, "You can do better, John," and he kept insisting that Tolkien revise it and edit it.

That section? It was the chapter in The Two Towers, "The Voice of Saruman." Which is arguably the best-written part of the entire trilogy. So Lewis did Tolkien some good.

[Anonymous No.19608033]

>>19606632
>SONIC'S ARMS AREN'T BLUE

[Anonymous No.19608319]

>>19604961
I read this finally this year.
It's incredibly based
>t. autismo heading slowly back to Christianity

[Anonymous No.19608463]

>>19600755
Just look at that balding, worthless loser
He is the reason you all suck Disney cock from age 0

[Anonymous No.19608603]

>>19600755
Wtf?
Tolkien mixed together various different mythologies and changed the nature of for example elves.

[Anonymous No.19609265]

>>19600765
Ah I remember this. I refuted her argument with ease.

[Anonymous No.19609282]

>>19600842
He primarily ripped off Wagner. ( the ring of absolute power, the lord of the ring, the curse of the ring).

[Anonymous No.19610009]

>>19600755
Both are kino

[Anonymous No.19610034]

>>19600791
Did Zack Snyder write this?

[Anonymous No.19610185]

>>19603436
>>19601353
don't forget the book that inspired lewis to write science fiction nf the first place

[Anonymous No.19610225]

>>19609282

bruh all this stuff is in Plato too (the ring of Gyges), it's not "ripping off" to invoke timeless tropes of the western tradition

[Anonymous No.19610253]

>>19601330
Meh, disagree. As children's lit, it's peak.

It is an important beautiful thing to read something that opens you as a very young child to imagined worlds, and that you can return to later in life with young relatives or even your own children.

Narnia doesn't have to be LOTR.

[Anonymous No.19610264]

>>19601641
Seriously?

Tell me you didn't read as a young kid without telling me you didn't read as a young kid.

[Anonymous No.19610272]

>>19603664
why compare when they had completely different artistic and aesthetic aims?

[Anonymous No.19610366]

>>19600791
based coomer tolkien

[Anonymous No.19610776]

>>19602774
basically true. Once you have set up an expensive lifestyle, the quest for money to sustain it rules you. It is a constant balancing act.

[Anonymous No.19611404]

>>19600787
Wagner's stories are shite.

[Anonymous No.19611447]

>>19600793
most writers and artists are fucking abysmal personalities.

[Anonymous No.19611452]

>>19600846
it's true but as you intimate, that doesn't make it any less fun

[Anonymous No.19611465]

>>19603753
fantasyfaggots never stop bringing the laughs, anon

[Anonymous No.19611488]

>>19601353
Only the last of the trilogy is worth anything. The first two are way to obviously his thelogical musings contorted into narrative. Smae goes for any of Chestertons fiction.