/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.19580804]

>47% of modern Greeks say homosexuality should not be accepted by society (Pew, 2019)
I always find it funny how the "traditionalist" crowd insists that instead of following their own traditions, they should be following semitic traditions instead.

The best part? This will all be repeated sooner or later. Western Europe and USA will become Islamic and in 500 years "traditionalists" will screech about how Islam is European and and following Islamic traditions is the same as embracing the traditions of your ancestors.

Is there some philosophy i can read on to explain this, or is it just as stupid as it seems? Do traditionalist philosophers consider the cutoff point to be something like 150 years or something?

[Anonymous No.19580806]

Christianity is literally a Greek religion.

[Anonymous No.19580811]

>greeks have their traditional society replaced by christianity
>Later products of christianity identify failures of the christian tradition and want to return to a more foundational starting point
>hurff durff but muh greeks haet faggotz nao, checkmate atheists
Just kill yourself OP. Really truly and do a flip.

[Anonymous No.19580812]

>>19580806
ἀμήν

[Anonymous No.19580823]

As for me, I don't care how "Semitic" Christianity is—I'm sure it's true—and I hate fags and Jews :)

[Anonymous No.19580826]

>>19580804
What did Plato say about homosexuality in Leges?

[Anonymous No.19580845]

>>19580826
Plato was a subversive and a life-hating utopian

>The erotic relation of men to youths was the necessary and sole preparation, to a degree unattainable to our comprehension, of all manly education (pretty much as for a long time all higher education of women was only attainable through love and marriage). All idealism of the strength of the Greek nature threw itself into that relation, and it is probable that never since have young men been treated so attentively, so lovingly, so entirely with a view to their welfare (virtus) as in the fifth and sixth centuries B.C. . . . The higher the light in which this relation was regarded, the lower sank intercourse with woman
—Friedrich Nietzche, Human, All Too Human 259

[Anonymous No.19581151]

>>19580845
>Ask degen to tell you what did Plato say about something in particular work
>Get quote from secondary material

I'll tell you what he said - it's unnatural and should be banned. Platonic prescription for homosexuals is the same as Catholic Church's is - he doesn't deny its existence but advises abstinence.

[Anonymous No.19581166]

I fap to twinks and traps, even 3D ones like Broccolibutts and I still think fags are disgusting and shouldn’t be allowed to hold pride parades.
They told us they were going to keep it in the bedroom but now we are subjected to gross 30+ year olds kissing in public.
Literally no one wants to watch that shit.

[Anonymous No.19581185]

>>19580804
Reminder most vassels depicting homosexual intercourse were SATIRICAL. Why are faggots so dumb?

[Anonymous No.19581196]

>>19580845
>>19581151
I don’t see any problem with Nietzsche’s quote and think it is prefectly reconcilable with what Plato imagined. The relationship does not imply sexual intercourse, which is a lower form of love.

[Anonymous No.19581201]

>>19581166
>i'm one of the good faggots
lol

[Anonymous No.19581221]

>>19580804
usury was illegal in ancient greece

[Anonymous No.19581228]

>>19580804
>But when Athens turned its eyes to Sparta, the worm of general egoism was already gnawing its destructive path into this fair State too. The Peloponnesian War had dragged it, all unwilling, into the whirlpool of the newer times; and Sparta had only been able to vanquish Athens by the very weapons which the Athenians had erewhile made so terrible and unassailable to it. Instead of their simple iron−bars those tokens of contempt for money, as compared with human worth the minted gold of Asia was heaped within the Spartan's coffers; leaving behind the ancient, frugal "public mess," he retired to his sumptuous banquet between his own four walls; and the noble love of man to man whose motive had been an even higher one than that of love to woman degenerated, as it had already done in the other Hellenic states, into its unnatural counterpart.
>The redemption of woman into participation in the nature of man is the outcome of christian-Germanic evolution. The Greek remained in ignorance of the psychic process of the ennobling of woman to the rank of man, To him everything appeared under its direct, unmediated aspect,—woman to him was woman, and man was man; and thus at the point where his love to woman was satisfied in accordance with nature, arose the spiritual demand for man.
>the process of the emancipation of women goes ahead only amid ecstatic convulsions. Love—tragedy.

[Anonymous No.19581255]

>>19581151
>>19581196
Nietzsche disliked Platonism and he is not referring to Plato's idealised and chaste pederasty but to the actual practice as it existed in ancient Greece.
>>19581185
No source for this

[Anonymous No.19581263]

>>19580804
>Western Europe and USA will become Islamic
Europe, yes. The US, no. Not sure why would that be the case.

[Anonymous No.19581266]

>>19581255
Plato =/= Platonism

[Anonymous No.19581268]

>>19581266
He disliked Plato

[Anonymous No.19581274]

>>19580804
A sin is a sin, despite whether or not many of the ancients practiced and accepted sin.

[Anonymous No.19581278]

>>19581268
>He disliked Plato
Babby's first Nietzsche.

[Anonymous No.19581279]

>>19581228
>the noble love of man to man whose motive had been an even higher one than that of love to woman degenerated, as it had already done in the other Hellenic states, into its unnatural counterpart.
I think Wagner's timeline is a little mixed up here, since pederasty was sexual long before the fall of Athens in the Peloponnesian War. Consider Aeschylus' Myrmidons, for instance. A convenient narrative, but ultimately a cope.

[Anonymous No.19581291]

>>19580804
>instead of following their own traditions, they should be following semitic traditions instead
The Greeks of today are not the Greeks of Pericles’ day. The Greeks today are Byzantine mutts. All they’ve ever known is Christianity. It IS their tradition. I’m assuming you’re American: why don’t you follow the traditions of the Native Americans instead of your Semitic traditions? Exactly, you see how that makes no sense

[Anonymous No.19581338]

>>19581255
And the practice was not sodomy. Not saying it didnt exist but it was seen as something fucked up, either comically (Aristophanes) or rationally (Plato).

>no source for this
Pic related (1/2)

[Anonymous No.19581347]

>>19581338
>>19581255
(1/2)

[Anonymous No.19581357]

>>19581255
>>19581338
>>19581347
(2/2)

[Anonymous No.19581386]

>>19581347
>>19581357
Those slides do not imply that "most vases depicting homosexuality are satire". They are talking about the "most obscene" images, with an image depicting an orgy (including male-male intercrural and male-female anal intercourse) attached. But a lot of pederastic vases are gift-giving scenes, or relatively subdued (but still sexually explicit) scenes of caressing. Furthermore, even if they are 'satiric', they are still depicting real social phenomena. And the prevalence and social acceptability of pederasty is evident in the fact that they vast majority of 'kalos inscriptions' (vases with inscriptions saying that such and such person 'is beautiful' or 'kalos') are directed toward young males.

[Anonymous No.19581414]

>>19581386
Most vases depicting homosexuality can only be inferred to be such from the explicitly obsecne depiction. Saying that the ones relatively subdued is still sexually explicit makes no sense, what is a sexually explicit depiction that is not obscene? Post some examples. Contrariwise, it goes in favor of my point about a chaste erotic relation between males.

> even if they are 'satiric', they are still depicting real social phenomena
No one said degenerates didn’t exist, I even said the opposite, but they were minority and were generally mocked.

> the prevalence and social acceptability of pederasty is evident in the fact that they vast majority of 'kalos inscriptions' (vases with inscriptions saying that such and such person 'is beautiful' or 'kalos') are directed toward young males.
Satire is social acceptability? Reread my posts and see how nonsensical what you just said is. Cope more hiv ridden faggot.

[Anonymous No.19581443]

>>19581414
>No one said degenerates didn’t exist, I even said the opposite, but they were minority and were generally mocked.
The literary evidence suggests strongly otherwise. Plato and Xenophon, who both had negative views of homosexuality, nevertheless depict it as being prevalent and socially acceptable. The entire dialogue Symposium has most of its participants saying that it is acceptable, even virtuous, for eromenoi to 'gratify' their erastes sexually (and both Plato and Xenophon say this is the case in most Greek cities). Popular plays, like Aeschylus' Myrmidons, depict Achilles mourning his 'thigh-intimacy' with Patroclus. Aeschines wrote that Solon sanctioned homosexuality, and there is homoerotic poetry (longing for thighs and lips of males) attributed to him by the Greeks.

[Anonymous No.19581457]

>>19580804
If you think an average Greek, from the Bronze Age to the collapse of Rome, would be into the modern phenomenon of homosexuality as their primary or sole identity marker, you are literally retarded.

[Anonymous No.19581458]

>>19581338
>(Aristophanes)
“These passages are not reconcilable with the supposition that Aristophanes rejected the general Greek response to youthful male beauty as a morbid or eccentric response deserving censure and ridicule. They are entirely reconcilable, in light of the fundamental contradiction within the Greek homosexual ethos, with the comic poets’ invariably unfriendly treatment of males who submit to the homosexual desires of others. There is no passage which demonstrably ridicules or criticises any man or any category of men for aiming at homosexual copulation with beautiful young males or for preferring them to women.” (Dover, Greek Homosexuality p. 137)

[Anonymous No.19581502]

>>19581386
>even if they are 'satiric', they are still depicting real social phenomena.
Not disagreeing or agreeing with anything else you said, but this is just stupid. Satire doesn't have to come from social phenomena, and if it is social phenomena, it doesn't have to be common phenomena.

[Anonymous No.19581509]

>>19581443
Doesn't Plato state in the Republic that the common people, or many people, look down on pederasty? It might even be in the Symposium, which at least shows that no one view was the dominant.

[Anonymous No.19581525]

>>19581509
>Doesn't Plato state in the Republic that the common people, or many people, look down on pederasty? It might even be in the Symposium, which at least shows that no one view was the dominant.
Don’t think I’ve ever seen a quote by Plato to that effect. Could you find it?

[Anonymous No.19581530]

You know homosexuality was frowned upon by the majority of the ancient greek populace right
You shouldn't be surprised by this at all.

[Anonymous No.19581531]

>>19581530
>You know homosexuality was frowned upon by the majority of the ancient greek populace right
There is literally no evidence for this

[Anonymous No.19581578]

>>19581443
>the entire dislogue has most participants
Literally only Pausanias will say anything about sexual satisfaction.

>thigh intimacy
What does it mean? Do you think Achilles’s mourns Patroclus’ death due to their sexual relations or because of what is implied in real genuine love for someone? What do you think Briseis was for?

>homorrotic poetry
Are there explicit sexual scenes in any of these poems? Caressing the hair, soft kissing, sitting on the lap, none of these is sexual, only for demented faggots.

>>19581458
This is not even a scholarly consensus. Aristophanes, as Strauss pointed, used to mock and see as inferior what is not considered natural, that attacking deformities, weaknesses, passivities was something natural.

[Anonymous No.19581583]

>>19581531
Cope, faggot

[Anonymous No.19581588]

>>19581531
>>19581525
> During Plato's time there were some people who were of the opinion that homosexual sex was shameful in any circumstances. Indeed, Plato himself eventually came to hold this view.

> In his ideal city, he says in his last, posthumously published work known as The Laws, homosexual sex will be treated the same way as incest. It is something contrary to nature, he insists, calling it "utterly unholy, odious-to-the-gods and ugliest of ugly things".

[Anonymous No.19581605]

>>19580804
>This will all be repeated sooner or later. Western Europe and USA will become Islamic and in 500 years "traditionalists" will screech about how Islam is European and and following Islamic traditions is the same as embracing the traditions of your ancestors.
Correct.

[Anonymous No.19581648]

>>19581578
They all talk about gratifying lovers. Alcibiades is surprised and put-off because Socrates doesn’t respond to his advances, which initially makes him anxious he will lose out on Socrates’
>>19581588
>”there were people of the opinion” != “the vast majority of people believed”

[Anonymous No.19581682]

>>19581648
I think the problem is that hiv made you a crass life denier, for it seems you can only think of gratification coming from gay sex. The difference between us is insurmountable.

Also, from what I already posted, the vast majority interprets the obscene scenes as satirical, therefore favoring my point.

[Anonymous No.19581750]

>>19581525
>Could you find it?
No chance, I just remember reading it. On my next read of the Republic (if I find it again) I'll post it.

[Anonymous No.19581807]

>>19581682
> I think the problem is that hiv made you a crass life denier, for it seems you can only think of gratification coming from gay sex. The difference between us is insurmountable.
Except they only use gratify in a sexual context with regard to pederastic relationships and it doesn’t make sense why nonsexual gratification would be illegal in some places