Fantasy as Serious Literature

[Anonymous No.19491770]

http://www.heliotropemag.com/Issue01/pdf/Heliotrope_pg32-38_SkepticalFantasist.pdf

This is an essay by R. Scott Bakker on the nature of Literature, and in defense of Epic Fantasy as literature. it could easily be applied to SF as well.

What do you all think? Can Fantasy be serious literature?

[Anonymous No.19491773]

[Anonymous No.19491785]

>>19491770
/lit/ will shit on it to protect it's pretentious sensibilities, but everything he wrote is factually true

[Anonymous No.19491792]

>>19491770
No

[Anonymous No.19491799]

>>19491770
>http://www.heliotropemag.com/Issue01/pdf/Heliotrope_pg32-38_SkepticalFantasist.pdf
Holy fuck this is embarrassing. Who takes this faggot seriously?

[Anonymous No.19491844]

>>19491770
>What do you all think?
It’s pretty cringe. Dude was seething because an old professor congratulated him on his children’s fiction. Literally sperging out like some social autist. He’s the reason why genre fiction isn’t taken seriously.

[Anonymous No.19491857]

>>19491770
>An author's blog is like a peek up a transvestite's skirt. Instead of something special, all you find is another dick.

[Anonymous No.19491862]

Check out his Wikipedia. It's so painfully obvious it's self-edited. This guy is utterly in love with himself and his ridiculous word salad "philosophy"

[Anonymous No.19491916]

>>19491770
Tried to read it, but couldn’t get past the first two paragraphs. I’ve read my share of female bloggers and their blogs and this shit is exactly like one of those obese woman blogs. I don’t know if it’s some sort of satire or parody, but I hope to god that it is. Because the thought of it being real is just downright depressing.

[Anonymous No.19491925]

>>19491770
The essay is cringe and reeks of wankery, but that aside, of course fantasy can be serious literature. The Ramayana and Mahabharata are fantasy. The Odyssey is fantasy. The Bible is fantasy. Faust is fantasy.
The problem with almost all modern fantasy is that it's generally poorly-written, forgettable, and devotes too much time to the minutiae of its unimportant fantasy elements—It's like a cake that's 2/3 frosting.
>"If fiction isn’t people, it is nothing.” —Wallace Stegner

[Anonymous No.19491934]

>>19491925
Honestly I don't know how so much of it sells. It just shows the majority of fantasy readers have shit tastes and will devour anything. Bakker's books are such a blatant rip off of Dune, it's not even a subtle nod. It's borderline plagiarism.

[Anonymous No.19492017]

>>19491770
Don’t know who this Bakker guy is, but just reading this essay, he seems egotistical and has a inflated sense of self-importance. Are all failed writers like this?

[Anonymous No.19492048]

It is not that there is something fundamental to the fantasy genre that prevents the creation of meaningful content, but its tendency towards escapism that neither teaches about nor correlates with reality. The worldbuilding and action get in the way of character development and ideas. I think Bakker's series present many fascinating ideas (a post-philosophical, nihilistic grim-dark exploration of fantasy/religious tropes), but the excess elements stretch out a story that could be told in 3 books into 7. Non-genre lit cuts the fat.

[Anonymous No.19492117]

>>19491773
this will never stop being hilarious

[Anonymous No.19492140]

>>19492017
You should see his Wiki kek

[Anonymous No.19492337]

>>19491770
>http://www.heliotropemag.com/Issue01/pdf/Heliotrope_pg32-38_SkepticalFantasist.pdf
I’m sorry, but what the fuck did I just read?

[Anonymous No.19492397]

>>19491770
How long do you intend on reposting this same thread, anon? We already had one with Rothfuss.

[Anonymous No.19492478]

>>19491770
>The skeptical fantasist: in defense of a oxymoron
>I was crossing campus not so long ago and I happened to bump into one of my old professors. She greeted me with a warm smile and congratulated me on my success writing children’s fiction. After swearing under my breath, I explained to her that I wrote epic fantasy, and that if anything, it was as adult as adult could be. The idea, I told her, was that in today’s electronically balkanized society, genre was the only place where it was possible to write ‘literature.’ She did not look convinced. But then I’ve been to several literary festivals now, and I have a pretty good sense of just how deep the pigeon-hole goes. We humans have three pound brains, and we live in a universe so big that we regularly see starlight older than our species. We are overmatched. As a result, we tend to economize by packing our terms with implicit judgements. In literary circles, ‘epic fantasy’ has all the cache of ‘bag lady’ or ‘redneck’ or even worse, ‘corporation.'

Yeah, I'm going to pass. The guy should come to terms that he's writing genre fiction and not literature. He can't even take compliments without sperging out.

[Anonymous No.19492520]

>>19491934
Somehow fantasy, in spite of its detachment from reality, draws a large amount of readership and you chalk this phenomenon up to "shit tastes". This is a low IQ take. Even if you hate fantasy you should be fascinated by the phenomenon of it.

[Anonymous No.19492552]

>>19492140
LMAO i just read it

[Anonymous No.19492557]

>>19491770
>Could be applied to SF as well
No, it can't, because science fiction is already accepted as real literature.

[Anonymous No.19492563]

>>19492557
no... just no...

[Anonymous No.19492676]

>>19491862
I just read it. Who is he trying to fool?

[Anonymous No.19492833]

>>19491773
I don’t know if I should laugh or just be sad on how pathetic it all is.

[Anonymous No.19493022]

>>19491770
>R. Scott Bakker
Literally who? Why are we taking the opinion of a nobody as fact?

[Anonymous No.19493240]

>>19491770
The entire essay is nothing more than a cope from a failed philosopher who couldn’t get into academia. Into the trash it goes.

[Anonymous No.19493515]

>>19491770
The essay is a waste of time. It’s just the author trying to justify his children’s fantasy novel.

[Anonymous No.19493610]

>>19491770
>What do you all think?
There’s nothing to think. Genre fiction isn’t literature, and no amount of screeching and seething will ever change that. If he wanted to be taken seriously then he should have written non-fiction.

[Anonymous No.19493688]

>>19491770
Why are you guys obsessed with this baka? I see his gawky mug here all the time. It seems his haters are just as numerous and passionate as his fans.

[Anonymous No.19493735]

>>19491770
>Can Fantasy be serious literature?
No

[Anonymous No.19493750]

>>19491770
anything can be 'serious' literature. half of 'serious' literature could be categorized as fantasy. angels, demons, dragons, etc. the Holy Bible is a fantasy book, and not in an edgy fedora way.
what makes something literature isn't its genre (yes i know what 'literary fiction' is; it's not a real genre), it is its impact. What is colloquially referred to as 'genre fiction' as opposed to literary fiction is driven by plot, the point of the book is typically to entertain and tell a story for a story's sake, whereas literary fiction aims to move, inspire, impact, alter, etc and succeeds to some degree. it's not purely for entertainment's sake, so a fantasy book could easily be literary fiction if the fantasy devices had function beyond pleasing the imagination.

[Anonymous No.19493761]

>>19493022

>>19492676 Faggots in /sffg/ unironically try defending this guy, saying his Wikipedia isn't self-edited pseudoscience garbage. I'm wondering if it was Bakker himself in the thread desu kek.

[Anonymous No.19493792]

>>19491773
>it's
NGMI

[Anonymous No.19493816]

>>19491770
No, genre fiction cant be literature because by definition literature is all about works too complex and impactful to be simply thrown into an specific genre.

Yes, you can write about dragons, magic and heroes and still be literature. The most important narratives of our cultures contain a wide set of supernatural elements now considered impossible by the hordes of materialist bugmen that dominate academia. The important point here is quality and trascendentality , something that most modern works with supernatural elements lack.

>verification not required.

[Anonymous No.19493874]

>>19492397
Keep seething Bakker you hack

[Anonymous No.19494607]

>>19493816
Nice effort post.

[Anonymous No.19494966]

>>19491770
Didn’t read it. Already knew it was going to be nothing but cope. Genre fiction if for kids and man children.

[Anonymous No.19495053]

>>19491770
>Can Fantasy be serious literature?
No, and I’m tired of you faggots repeating the same questions over and over again expecting a different answer.

[Anonymous No.19495090]

Hes essentially trying to justify his ideas being mediocre and having to sell out to profit from them.

[Anonymous No.19495200]

>>19495090
Got the same vibe as well. Who is he? Haven’t heard of him

[Anonymous No.19495210]

>>19495200
Some Fantasy writer SFFG (Sci-fi and Fantasy General) worships

[Anonymous No.19495211]

>>19495090
>Hes essentially trying to justify his ideas being mediocre
Umm I'll have you know he's actually quite the intellectual heavyweight and totally not a word-salad sperg who makes up anything to justify remaining permanently on campus. From his totally not self-written Wikipedia:

>To begin, Bakker imagines an explanatory vehicle he refers to as a Recursive System, the brain architecture which has evolved to track even more the basic architecture of itself, possibly akin to the relationship between the frontal cortex to the rest of the brain. Bakker suggests two parts to a Recursive System, the system "open," all the information processed by the brain, and the system "closed," referring to the information accessible to consciousness. The basic assumption regarding the existence of a Recursive System implies a limit on the information available to the RS-closed, conscious awareness, which Bakker dubs Informatic Asymmetry and its Asymptotic Limit. As specific examples Bakker refers to the cognitive psychology literature citing change blindness and inattentional bias (cognitive bias), wherein there are clear divergences between the information processed by the brain and information from the self-reports of perception.

Yeah, bet you feel stupid now, huh?

[Anonymous No.19495226]

>>19495210
/sffg/ here. We don’t. It’s just some redditors and discordtrannies who shit up the general.

[Anonymous No.19495231]

>>19495210
/sffg/ here. We do. It's just some great anons who like to discuss him in the general.

[Anonymous No.19495242]

>>19495210
I’m pretty certain they don’t worship him and it’s just a small number of trolls shitting up the threads there.

[Anonymous No.19495247]

>>19495211
None of what you said is exceptional and is pretty well understood by evolutionary psychology

[Anonymous No.19495251]

>>19495242
I just checked /sffg/ for the first time in months, and it doesn't seem a small number, or trolling.

[Anonymous No.19495252]

>>19495242
>>19495226
The general has gone to shit

[Anonymous No.19495265]

>>19495252
I agree. I miss the old days of GRI posting. Not all you see is anime.

[Anonymous No.19495280]

>>19495211
How’s that exceptional? And I also refuse to believe that’s his wiki.

[Anonymous No.19495301]

>>19492397
his name is patrick cuckfuss

[Anonymous No.19495309]

>>19495251
It's just the resident sissy who's seething about not controlling the discourse in the General.

[Anonymous No.19495337]

>>19495280
Bro you're in for a ride
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._Scott_Bakker

[Anonymous No.19495342]

>>19495247
Yeah I was mocking him and his pseudobabble that's on his Wikipedia

[Anonymous No.19495349]

>>19495211
Honesty, if you look at it deeper, there seems to be nothing unique/new to Bakker’s thoughts and a ton of obfuscation to make it sounds like his philosophy is a unique insight that he developed. As this other anon >>19495247 it’s all well understood by better people.

[Anonymous No.19495364]

>>19495349
No one claimed that Bakker's thoughts were unique. However, it is undeniable to say that the way he incorporates such concepts into a story is original.

[Anonymous No.19495376]

>>19495349
Ironic because on his wiki it says he's concerned with the disconnect between academia and the working class but really if you're not well-read on philosophy, you're unlikely to offer anything original to the field. Hence why Nietzche was inspired by Schopenhauer who was inspired by Kant/Hegel and Aristotle was inspired by Plato who was inspired by Socrates.

[Anonymous No.19495383]

>>19491770
I don't read fantasy myself but I don't have a problem with it and don't consider it beneath any other genre. The only genre I don't consider to be serious literature is horror.

[Anonymous No.19495395]

>>19491770
>>19491773
>serious literature
What exactly does that mean? Academic books aside, if we are strictly talking about literature, I don't see why a historical war novel, or a police drama, let alone romance, should be considered "more serious" or "less childish" than fantasy.
Fantasy as a literary genre is the continuation of European folklore. The Illiad, Beowulf, the Nibelungenlied and the Kalevala are also works of fantasy and I don't think any pretentious pseud would criticize them.
Haven't ever read anything by this Bakker guy so I can't vouch for his books, but at least regarding Tolkien I can say that anybody who thinks his writings are just "for children" either got massively filtered or didn't actually read the books and just watched the Jackson movies and thinks the books are just like that.

[Anonymous No.19495408]

>>19495395
Famous literature achieve their status by describing something profound about the human condition not discussing some pseudo concept like college stoners .

[Anonymous No.19495425]

>>19495408
Yes, agreed. Fantasy most often explores man's relationship with the metaphysical and spiritual aspects of life, like man-God/s; man-Morality; man-Honor; etc...
We have too much naturalist trash and way too much pseudo-literature that's just regular people interacting with each other.

[Anonymous No.19495436]

>>19495425
Ya but the supernatural elements are the genres downfall because it's hard to make a serious connection to reality when your character is some chosen superman who can defeat evil with his magic powers lol

[Anonymous No.19495465]

>>19495364
Not really. Philosophical fantasy has been a thing and there's better authors who incorporate such things better than Bakker.

[Anonymous No.19495516]

>>19491773
this fuckin image

[Anonymous No.19495526]

I don't think it's necessary really. Literary fiction is usually given that term because it doesn't fit completely into any genre. Mason & Dixon incorporates fantasy, but to call it a fantasy novel would feel disingenuous. I don't know if the majority of fantasy writers even care whether or not their work is considered serious literature, probably only the egomaniacs get upset about it

[Anonymous No.19495530]

>>19495436
>when your character is some chosen superman who can defeat evil with his magic powers lol
???
Ah yes, who could forget that part of the Illiad where Achilles just throws a fireball at the walls of Troy and destroys them, thus achieving victory for the Acheans after just one day of war.
Of all the specific works I mentioned, the only one in which the protagonist has "magic powers" is the Kalevala, and there it's not like Vainamoinen's magic is a deus ex machina that gets him out of any trouble. He loses the sampo and is ultimately kicked out of his land.
Tragic events are pretty common in fantasy. In Tolkien, the host of the sons of Feanor didn't just ride to the halls of Morgoth and defeat him magically, they were crushed at the Dagor Bragollach and the Nírnaeth Arnoediad and eventually realized that they could only overcome evil by humbly asking for God's forgiveness for their sins and for his help.

Judging the entire genre over some bad examples, aren't we?

[Anonymous No.19495556]

>>19493688
*bakka

[Anonymous No.19495630]

>>19495465
I like how you failed to name a single example of this.

[Anonymous No.19495635]

>>19495630
>Spoonfeeding

[Anonymous No.19495641]

>>19495465
>Philosophical fantasy
At least now we know you're a retard.

[Anonymous No.19495647]

>>19495635
I accept your defeat.

[Anonymous No.19495655]

>>19495641
Sadly, that is a real niche for failed philosophers who use fantasy as their platform to shill for whatever philosophy they made up.

[Anonymous No.19495663]

>>19495530
I was thinking WoT, Dune, and Prince of Nothing

[Anonymous No.19495684]

None of you hating faggots could ever write a series as interesting and majestic as the Second Apocalypse. Yes Bakker is a cringe socially awkward giga-autist, but so are (You), and where is your 4000-page fantasy series that still gets daily threads and effortposts on /lit/ even two years after the author’s complete disappearance?

I swear “muh realism” fags ans “muh serious literary fiction” fags are all coping desperately with many many things, not the least of which being their utter lack of writerly talent and/or accomplishment.

[Anonymous No.19495696]

>>19495684
>Appealing to midwits is a sign of success

[Anonymous No.19495699]

>>19491844
>because an old professor congratulated him on his children’s fiction
I don't believe that even happened. It reads like one of those fat woman blog posts where they claim someone came up to them in target and was like are you seriously going to buy all those cheese puffs? and then started making pig noises at them.

[Anonymous No.19495765]

>>19495699
It seems another anon had a similar feeling as you, >>19491916

I really wonder if it happened at all, or if this is some sort of victim complex.

[Anonymous No.19495773]

>>19495641
Bakker seems to trigger retards for some weird reason.

[Anonymous No.19495810]

>>19495684
Seems like cope.

[Anonymous No.19495870]

>>19495684
Sounds like based.

[Anonymous No.19495875]

>>19495870
What’s based about appealing to midwits?

[Anonymous No.19495886]

>>19495663
>>when your character is some chosen superman who can defeat evil with his magic powers lol
>Dune
Painfully full of filler but the whole point of the series is that the end goal of the main characters is not just "conquering the universe" but rather making sure that humanity will be able to survive without them. You are completely missing what the actual obstacle is in the narrative.
It's not just "and then the Atreides conquered the Universe, the end", that's just the first two books.

[Anonymous No.19495930]

>>19495875
>>19495696
>calling others midwits because they enjoy genre fiction
>not being high-IQ or cultured enough to have wide-ranging tastes across many genres, eras, styles, and modes of fiction
What do you like to read anon? Seriously. What are the last three books you read cover-to-cover? I want to step inside the enlightened mind of an apparent non-midwit.

[Anonymous No.19495951]

>>19495663
>>19495886
I thought the actual obstacle for Paul was preventing the Jihad desu.

[Anonymous No.19495968]

>>19491773
Not going to lie, made me chuckle. How can a grown ass man be that pathetic?

[Anonymous No.19495975]

>>19495968
autism, maybe you’ve heard of it

[Anonymous No.19495983]

>>19495773
>>19495930
Bakker why do you hang out here? Haven't you got some pseudophilosophy to be developing?

[Anonymous No.19495992]

>>19495975
That excuse only works for children, and maladjusted teens. Not for adults.

[Anonymous No.19496033]

>>19491773
>After swearing under my breath
That is a man that goes to reddit.

[Anonymous No.19496090]

>>19495684
>None of you hating faggots could ever write a series as interesting and majestic as the Second Apocalypse.
Anon, I just did a quick search on it, and it gives me D&D vibes. The book sounds just awful.

[Anonymous No.19496212]

>>19491770
>What do you all think?
Guy wrote 7 pages for something that only needed at best, 3 pages.

[Anonymous No.19496215]

>>19496090
Why is so much of modern fantasy just so unoriginal and uninspired? And why does it sell so well? In aghast every time I want to explore a new fantasy world when I read up on it only to find the most bland ideas and plots.

[Anonymous No.19496225]

>>19496215
Most don't take the time to study the classics like Tolkien did is my guess. Being raised on a steady diet of films and TV probably dumbed down the latest gneration.

[Anonymous No.19496294]

>>19491770
>Can Fantasy be serious literature?
So it's like fantasy, but not entertaining? Sounds great.

[Anonymous No.19496305]

>>19496215
>And why does it sell so well?
Some don't. Pretty sure Bakker fantasy series was drop when it didn't sell well.

[Anonymous No.19496329]

>>19496305
As much as I hate seeing it get posted, Bakker's series does at least sound different from the rest of the schlock that gets published as fantasy. There is no school for assassins or wizards, the main character is male, and it's not obsessed with oppression politics.

[Anonymous No.19496341]

>>19496329
>least sound different from the rest of the schlock that gets published as fantasy.
It isn’t.
>There is no school for assassins or wizards, the main character is male, and it's not obsessed with oppression politics.
Actually find and reads books and not just list from major publishers. And try self-publishers.

[Anonymous No.19496347]

>>19496341
>it isn't
I suppose that's what I get for giving bakkerfags the slightest grain of salt.
>actually fund and read books and not just list from major publishers. And try self-publishers.
I don't need to, there's the entire 20th century to read.

[Anonymous No.19496357]

Bakker I know you're reading this thread
finish No-God already you fuck

[Anonymous No.19496380]

Bakker is the greatest living fantasy author.

[Anonymous No.19496391]

>>19496380
>living
Questionable.

[Anonymous No.19496398]

>>19496391

[Anonymous No.19496401]

>>19496380
You should read more fantasy then.

[Anonymous No.19496406]

Antibakker trannies got their shit pushed in sffg so they're trying to rile the rest of /lit/ to their tranny cause. Sad display I say, very womanish.

[Anonymous No.19496409]

[Anonymous No.19496411]

>>19496215
Because modernity is based around consumption that in theory is supposed to last 4ever, or until you as a consumer seizes to be. From a capitalistic profit based point of view, a story that ends is a story that is wasted potential. If LOTR trilogy made Bank, why should it be a trilogy and say not a tetralogy or greater even - a story that lasts forever? Why kill off the goose that lays golden eggs? Why not make it into a drug that the consumer keeps on taking a long as humanly possible?

This is where modern fiction comes into play. It's not supposed to a well thought content with a clear beginning and end, it's supposed to be an endless fix required by the mindless idiotic consumer who tends to respond to formulatic bullshit. He/she wants "the same, but slightly different", and this what the smarter content producers have managed to catch on. This is why fantasy is derivative of derivate of derivate these days. Because being original doesn't sell well untill fate herself descends from heavens and decides that your original idea is going to be "the next thing".

Finally, and this is what makes me hate normies more than most can imagine, the average consumer - read 'lowest common denominator', is too retarded to understand quality. You can't sell a ghetto nigger, whigger, white trash and similar low life the equivalent of classical music. It just don't register, the frequency is too alien for them to ever grasp, and worst of all, it makes them turn away from said hypothetical product, and that dear gentlemen is bad news. No sheep to buy fix = no $$$, and that is a no-go in our materialist based economy.

In short, quality is reserved for the few, and there's just not enough money in them compared to the mindless unwashed sub-human masses. Also people who want quality are notoriously picky - they're hard to please. Now compare that to a mindless consumer. Why even try? Just church on yet another derivate work, sell your ass to marketing department and see them numbers fly.

[Anonymous No.19496417]

>>19491770
Go to your containment thread, Bakkerfag >>>19495939
Or else kill yourself

[Anonymous No.19496422]

>>19496380
It's not hard desu, but you're right.

[Anonymous No.19496429]

>>19496411
>He/she wants "the same, but slightly different", and this what the smarter content producers have managed to catch on.
I saw this shit when The Hunger Games was published. You had so many copycats.

[Anonymous No.19496454]

>>19495211
Bakker’s “philosophy”, if you can even call it that, can be easily summarized as nothing more than an entry level bugman philosophy wrapped up in bugman genre conventions. Whether it be written as genre fiction or capital L literature, you wouldn’t enjoy it. If someone tells me Bakker is their favorite author my first thought is they need to read more.

[Anonymous No.19496457]

>>19496406
Fuck off Bakker

[Anonymous No.19496464]

>>19496454
Thank you for proving my point.

[Anonymous No.19496497]

>>19496464
And what point is that?

[Anonymous No.19496512]

the funny thing is that you seethe about bakker so hard but he is literally living the ideal /lit/ life living on a based farm in rural canada with his caucasian wife and daughter in a beautifully restored farmstead including a vast library and vidya cave in a 1900s barn. he doesn't gaf about seething trannies on /lit/ and also he was banned from twitter for making fun of troons. he is a cringe autistic rural metal stoner fedora big brain dungeon master and his books are insanely entertaining which is why we love him

[Anonymous No.19496526]

>>19496512
>we

[Anonymous No.19496527]

>>19496497
Not him, but you are unironically retarded.

[Anonymous No.19496534]

>>19496512
You're arguing with people that either never read Bakker, or got filtered by him.

[Anonymous No.19496535]

>>19496512
>we

[Anonymous No.19496557]

>>19491770
>Fantasy fiction was lowbrow. It was a crass, commercial genre, not worthy the scrutiny of the learned.
Only thing that’s actually factual out of the entire damn essay. Dumb faggot should have just typed this first and saved everyone’s time.

[Anonymous No.19496565]

>>19496512
I wouldn't mind him if it wasn't for the overtly pretentious self-fagging of his "philosophy" which says literally nothing new or insightful.

[Anonymous No.19496587]

>>19496565
Which philosophical topics in his books do you have an actual issue with?

[Anonymous No.19496632]

>>19491773
What the fuck is even a Electronically Balkanize Society. Jesus fuck, I keep seeing this faggot repeating it like it’s some gotcha moment.

[Anonymous No.19496637]

>>19496587
Being philosophical doesn't automatically make something good or deep. His topics aren't that deep as mentioned above

[Anonymous No.19496646]

>>19496637
>Can't writer proper English.
>Can't answer a simple question.
>"Being philosophical".
Retard.

[Anonymous No.19496647]

>>19496646
>No argument

[Anonymous No.19496648]

>>19496637
desu he does a hearty defense of extreme materialism. i don't agree with him but some of the blind brain stuff is fun to ponder. there are obviously better sources on the topic, but whatever.

[Anonymous No.19496665]

>>19496646
>Strawman
>Strawman
>Strawman
Typically Bakkerfag

[Anonymous No.19496668]

>Doesn't know what an argument is, yet criticizes someone's philosophy.
You literally can't make this shit up.

[Anonymous No.19496670]

>>19496632
>What the fuck is even a Electronically Balkanize Society.
I honestly think he's trying to say Cyberbalkanization but for whatever reason, he doesn't so keep using his made-up word.

[Anonymous No.19496675]

>>19491844
Pardon me, a few months ago it seems everyone was riding Bakkers nuts (to my chagrin). What gives?

[Anonymous No.19496678]

>>19491773

[Anonymous No.19496679]

>Come to /lit/ everyday.
>See Bakker everywhere.
B-based?

[Anonymous No.19496688]

>>19491925
I prefer to just call it myth. I think there is a difference between fantasy you find at Barnes and Nobles, and what I consider myth, however. Book of the new Sun is the perfect example of a fantasy/science fiction novel that actually understands the forms of myth so as to bring them to life (as a new Sun).

[Anonymous No.19496704]

>>19496637
The only philosophy that matters is the philosophy of death and resurrection. It’s like how Tolkien said somewhere that all stories worth telling are about death.

>18. The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how will our end come?"

>Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is.

>Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

[Anonymous No.19496728]

>>19496675
If this thread is any indication, it just a few anons who’s sucking Bakker’s duck.

[Anonymous No.19496736]

>>19496704
Stop replying to the retard, he's just shit flinging at this point.

[Anonymous No.19496743]

>>19496728
No, not really.

[Anonymous No.19496748]

>>19496728
Sounds like it

[Anonymous No.19496756]

>>19496728
The only thing sucking dick here is your English, buddy.

[Anonymous No.19496757]

>>19496736
I only read that one post not any of the preceding ones.

[Anonymous No.19496775]

>>19496736
Some of us are enjoying the autism overload, kindly cease whatever you're trying to prevent.

[Anonymous No.19496785]

>>19496704
The thought that we will never have another Tolkien is depressing.

[Anonymous No.19496790]

>>19496785
The next Tolkien will be a vidya game dev.

[Anonymous No.19496821]

>>19496790
It’s too late in our culture for that. Better a Caesar than a Plato now.

[Anonymous No.19496829]

>>19496821
I should have said Homer

[Anonymous No.19496862]

>>19491773

[Anonymous No.19496886]

>>19491770
This guy's Second Apocalypse series was very good.

[Anonymous No.19496888]

>>19496675
If you check /sffg/ it’s literally just a few anons. They’re also killing that general for some reason.

[Anonymous No.19496891]

>>19491862
>>19493761
yes he clearly wrote it himself. but his books are so full of ego awareness and pride and self-deception, he must be conscious of how it reads.

[Anonymous No.19496908]

>>19496886
I know, right? I'm reading it right now.

[Anonymous No.19496922]

>>19496891
>but his books are so full of ego awareness and pride and self-deception, he must be conscious of how it reads.
Doubtful when the author self-inserts as the Gary Stu.

[Anonymous No.19496949]

>>19496922
Which character?

[Anonymous No.19496957]

>>19496949
Kellhus.

[Anonymous No.19496961]

>>19496957
>>19496922
brainlet take
akka is bakker's self insert

[Anonymous No.19496964]

>>19496957
You clearly don't know what Gary Stu means, then.

[Anonymous No.19496969]

>>19496964
Nor Self-Insert. The guy is clueless.

[Anonymous No.19496973]

>>19496957
Well shit, that actually puts things into perspective. Should have known given Bakker’s background.

[Anonymous No.19496984]

>>19496957
>Admitting that Bakker is an intellectually superior being.
I'm Ok with this.

[Anonymous No.19497012]

>>19496922
>>19496957
>Author
>self-insert
Fantasy, as a genre, needs to die. Whatever literary merit it had died when many of the old authors passed away. What remains is nothing more than beta males and men-children writing their power fantasies poisoning the minds of young readers.

[Anonymous No.19497033]

Aha, let me self insert into this broken Vulcan that tries at being a Muhammad

[Anonymous No.19497084]

>>19497012
>What remains is nothing more than beta males and men-children writing their power fantasies poisoning the minds of young readers.
Science fiction gets actual scientists and people who work on scientific fields to write novels. I wonder why Fantasy only attracts, as you say, beta males and man-children.

[Anonymous No.19497091]

>>19496646
>Y-you just don't understand what he's on about
Yeah, cos it's pseudobabble.

[Anonymous No.19497097]

>>19497091
Stop replying to the same post multiple times.

[Anonymous No.19497121]

>>19497097
He's clearly ass-blasted.

[Anonymous No.19497140]

>>19496821
My money is on Baron Trump being a hotshot leader and reclaiming america

[Anonymous No.19497156]

>>19497097
But I didn't. Stop samefagging >>19497121. You have no vested interest to defend an autistic writer who self authors his own Wikipedia page to include endless paragraphs of airhead drivel, unless you are him in which case that is just funny as fuck

[Anonymous No.19497162]

>>19497156
>Samefags
>"NO U!"
I accept your defeat.

[Anonymous No.19497171]

>>19497162
>I accept your defeat
It's an anonymous image board argument, calm down faggot

[Anonymous No.19497179]

>>19497171
Not my problem.

[Anonymous No.19497186]

>>19497084
>I wonder why Fantasy only attracts, as you say, beta males and man-children.
It's no secret, just look how Fantasy authors look like. From Sanderson, Rothfuss, to yes, even Bakker. I mean, read the Bakker's blog and he's still seething at some ex-girlfriend's mother after all these years. The reason why they write power fantasies shouldn't come as a surprised.

[Anonymous No.19497197]

>>19497140
Me too, actually.

[Anonymous No.19497200]

>>19497186
>Trump-Newscorp-Combine
>Brings up an ex’s mother
This dude really is pathetic. Holy shit, who takes him seriously.

[Anonymous No.19497230]

>>19497186
>Trump
Isn’t this guy Canadian or some shit? Why is he naming Trump?

[Anonymous No.19497246]

So is this guy going to pull a Terry Goodkind and call his readerd retards?

[Anonymous No.19497283]

>>19497186
>Michael Egnor
HOLY SHIT
I've actually had an online debate with this guy, 60YO baby

[Anonymous No.19497284]

>>19497230
>Why is he naming Trump?
He's a leftist. Why wouldn't he?

[Anonymous No.19497289]

>>19497246
it's already implied

[Anonymous No.19497295]

>>19497186
>Trump-Newscorp-Combine
It's official, I hate this faggot. Of course he's a fucking TDS schizo

[Anonymous No.19497302]

>>19497186
>If I cram superfluous, tautological bullshit into my writings it'll make me sound smart
He is the literal avatar of R*ddit

[Anonymous No.19497323]

>>19497302
>>19497295
>>19497230
>>19497284
D-do we fit in yet?

[Anonymous No.19497367]

>>19497323
This is just getting sad, anon.

[Anonymous No.19497376]

>>19497186
God, the more I learn about him, the more I realize he’s such a raging faggot.

[Anonymous No.19497395]

>>19497323
Fuck off Bakker

[Anonymous No.19497403]

How long before Bakker randomly makes a passive aggressive tweet along the lines of "anonymous scumbags on the internet" kek

[Anonymous No.19497440]

>>19497302
Don’t read his blog then. It’s like a Reddit nerve center or an amalgamation given life.

[Anonymous No.19497460]

>>19497403
Bakker was banned from twitter after making a joke about trans people.

[Anonymous No.19497507]

>>19497460
Seriously? Maybe I judged him too harshly kek

[Anonymous No.19497561]

>>19497507
>Seriously?
No. That’s what they always say to cope. You should check out his subreddit that he made, it’s where most of the bakkerfags come from. It’s been dead for a long while and decided to just delete it.

[Anonymous No.19497582]

>>19497507
Yes. Simple as. You should check his books. They are the antithesis of modern woke politics. There has been a Bakker renaissance recently on this website for some reason.

[Anonymous No.19497589]

>>19497582
>You should check his books.
I just might, especially after reading that review.

[Anonymous No.19497595]

>>19497582
That sounds pretty based.

[Anonymous No.19497605]

>>19497561
>Subreddit that he made
>Subreddit
>He made
So, he really is a reddit author? Should have known, didn't think he would go as far as to make his own subreddit. Though if this thread is anything to go by, he would be egotistical enough to do it.

[Anonymous No.19497617]

>>19497605
I mean, his biggest fans are from Reddit. And much like the bakkerfags, who certainly are from Reddit, they suck his dick. It’s pretty much an echo-chamber.

[Anonymous No.19497666]

>>19497582
>Women aren't WEAK
kek
alright I'll read this dude's stuff even if he is a canadian
I start with the darkness that came before, right?

[Anonymous No.19497677]

>>19491770
>Can Fantasy be serious literature?
No, fuck off, that shit is for children.

[Anonymous No.19497687]

the writing was stunning
the prose was wonderful
it's not formulaic whatsoever
enjoyable philosophical themes
but still:
IT MADE ME FEEL DISGUSTING
I DESPISE THIS BOOK WHERE WOMEN HAVE NO VALUE
I DON'T EVEN WANT TO OWN THIS BOOK
I CAN READ ABOUT ANYTHING, I DON'T WANT TO READ ABOUT RAPE
even if things was borderline consensual...

remember, fictional abuse of women - is abuse of women

[Anonymous No.19497693]

>>19497687
You don’t have to samefag this hard, you know? Why don’t you just go back to the subreddit you crawled from?

[Anonymous No.19497708]

>>19497693
Whatever, schizo
This is literally my 2nd post in thread, after endorsing a comedic image edit

[Anonymous No.19497724]

>>19497693
Why you even hang out in this thread, if you dislike the author/books so much?
It's not like you are participating in discourse by giving shitty canned: Go back to X -replies

[Anonymous No.19497742]

>>19497186
>Suffers from TDS
Good Lord, Trump does live rent-free in people's heads. What did Trump do to get this basedboy mad?

[Anonymous No.19497756]

>>19497742
Won the 2016 election and beat Hillary Clinton. Bakker was a huge supporter of her.

[Anonymous No.19497790]

>>19497756
>Bakkerfags are all leftist trannies
Makes sense

[Anonymous No.19497817]

>>19497790
>trannies
why you keep brining attention to something you supposedly dislike?
it's literally not a part of the topic being discussed

[Anonymous No.19497841]

>>19497817
I made a few very well thought out posts in this thread; I’m allowed to shitpost if I want to.

[Anonymous No.19497871]

>>19497841
I am getting increasingly tiered of being unable to go two sentences without reading the T-word

[Anonymous No.19497892]

>>19497871
Seems as though you can't even pass a mirror without being reminded of it.

[Anonymous No.19497913]

>>19497871
I’m sick of being reminded about politics every day too. Pain is a prerequisite for consciousness. You seem like you’re fairly close to having a breakthrough.

[Anonymous No.19498075]

>>19497186
>Hating Trump
Already a sign that he’s a poor writing.

[Anonymous No.19498083]

>>19497582
Right I'll check them out, but I'm still judging him for the needless pretentious shit and falling for the Orange Man Bad meme

[Anonymous No.19498119]

>>19497186
>Muh orange man bad.
Genuinely and utterly pathetic. I know what author I’m going to ignore now.

[Anonymous No.19498198]

>>19497186
Someone get me a qrd on the mother? Why did Bakker mentioned her in this blogpost? And why is he still seething after all these years?

[Anonymous No.19498205]

>>19496391
I figured he was dead but with all this shilling I'm convinced the man himself is shitposting among us

[Anonymous No.19498207]

>>19498198
Bakker has an extremely fragile ego and can't even take the most basic bitch criticism.

[Anonymous No.19498222]

>>19496964
Kellhus is 100% a Gary Stu. IIRC the only human immune to his manipulation in the entire story was Conphas and he was conveniently disposed of to make room for Kellhus becoming Emperor of the world. Just because the story does a good job rationalizing it with "he elite monk, he train from child" doesn't mean the label does not fit the character

[Anonymous No.19498420]

>>19498207
So, he kept seething after all this time? Is the guy a fucking autist or something?

[Anonymous No.19498435]

>>19498420
Yes, and yes.

[Anonymous No.19498478]

>>19498222
>"he elite monk, he train from child"
Wow, it’s just like my anime. So it really is a power fantasy after all. I can safely say I will ignore it.

[Anonymous No.19498487]

>>19498222
he's evil

[Anonymous No.19498517]

>>19496512
Canada farm life is the least based farm life someone could lead. You can't even grow crops for most of the year

[Anonymous No.19498524]

>>19498222
>Gary Stu
>emotionally stunted autist who cant experience human emotions, draws no joy and doesn't even see humans as living beings
>described by Bakker as "a meaningless man in a world full of meaning"
>lost his virginity in his mid-30s, can't even breed properly, most of his children are mental cripples

[Anonymous No.19498562]

Fantasy will never be serious as long as it keeps whining about not being taken seriously. Maybe not even when it stops whining. Who even cares. Just tell me a story about dragons n shit.

[Anonymous No.19498586]

>DUDE FANTASY IS NOT LITERATURE LMAO

>reads Bible
>reads Iliad
>reads Metamorphoses
>reads Paradise Lost
>reads Divine Comedy
>reads Le Morte d'Arthur
>reads Midsummer Night's Dream
>reads Borges
>reads Faust
>reads Master and Margarita

[Anonymous No.19498592]

>>19498586
The Bible is not in the genre of fantasy. Whether or not you believe it's divine its genre is mostly instructional.

[Anonymous No.19498641]

>>19498222
At the very least we know the other anon is retarded.

[Anonymous No.19498737]

>>19498524
So you really don’t know what Gary Stu means?

[Anonymous No.19498751]

>>19498586
Yes yes they all have fantastical elements, but when you have read both Borges and Robert Jordan, can you still sincerely pretend not to perceive a difference?
Sure, there are authors with whom the line gets blurred, such al Wolfe and M. John Harrison, but they are an exception to the general rule, mainly on account of being good writers.

[Anonymous No.19498786]

>>19498751
>well, sure its fantasy, but it goes against my narrative so lets ignore it mmmkay?

[Anonymous No.19498791]

>>19498786
You must be one of those people who read for the plot

[Anonymous No.19498813]

>>19498222
I interpret Kellhus as a critique of hyper rationalism. He focuses on the material world when the spiritual is the active, dominant, malevolent force in the universe. He's the cow who wants to preserve the slaughterhouse instead of blowing up the whole operation. The Inchorai are the good guys.

[Anonymous No.19498908]

>>19498786
Are you just acting retarded?

[Anonymous No.19498952]

>>19497666
Yes.

[Anonymous No.19498955]

>>19498222
Kellhus isn't even human. You're unironically retarded if you think otherwise.

[Anonymous No.19498957]

>>19497693
We accept your surrender.

[Anonymous No.19498963]

>>19498813
>critique of hyper rationalism
Sounds retarded. No wonder no one takes him seriously.

[Anonymous No.19498968]

>>19498813
Sounds based. No wonder he's so popular.

[Anonymous No.19498983]

>>19491770
I've read plenty of fantasy that could be considered serious literature, not that big on scifi but I've read some that falls into that category. Most people who think fantasy can't be literature haven't read that much, if I wanted somebody's opinion on something to do about literature I'd only listen to someone who was quite well read.

[Anonymous No.19498997]

>>19497186
>Trump-Newscorp-Combine
Kek, don’t need to read further. Already know this faggot injects his leftist/liberal beliefs in his novels. Not worth looking much less reading. He and his fans should go back to r*ddit where they belong.

[Anonymous No.19499025]

>>19498983
>Most people who think fantasy can't be literature
Almost, all modern fantasy can’t be literature. Fantasy in the past were and are treated as literature. Tolkien being the most famous example.

[Anonymous No.19499436]

>>19498997
This

[Anonymous No.19499448]

lol

[Anonymous No.19500066]

>>19491770
Alright, I will read the damn books.

[Anonymous No.19500079]

>>19498222
Kellhus is evil retard, his actions are damning most living beings.

[Anonymous No.19500086]

>>19497186
He sounds like a huge faggot, not to mention just another nobody sick with TDS

[Anonymous No.19500142]

>>19498997
>Already know this faggot injects his leftist/liberal beliefs in his novels.
He actually does.

[Anonymous No.19500148]

>>19500142
No, not really.

[Anonymous No.19500184]

>>19498997
Not only does he inject his political beliefs into his books, like all leftist authors before him, but he also puts his sexual fetishes into the book as well. I don't know why they do this, but they do. I've yet to figure out an explanation as to why leftist are so obsessed with sex.

[Anonymous No.19500202]

>>19498586
>N-n-n-no literary fiction bros THIS CANNOT BE HAPPENING
Fantasy is no longer called fantasy when it is good, like in those examples you've given. It can meet the definition of fantasy, but will no longer count because there is so much shit in genre fiction nobody wants to be associated with it.

[Anonymous No.19500349]

>>19498222
>Power fantasy
>Gary Stu self-insert
I can see why so many people shill it then.

[Anonymous No.19500583]

>>19500184
>Derange Leftist puts politics and sex into his stories
The more I learn about him, the less I want to read him.

[Anonymous No.19500609]

>>19496908
Bakkerfags look like THAT?

[Anonymous No.19500716]

>>19496908
>Neckbeards and incels
And not reading his series.

[Anonymous No.19500886]

>>19498997
Just going to spare you the detail but these are the main characters of the first trilogy:
>a dumb whore that everyone wants because it's bakker's imaginary waifu
>a literal cuck
>a literal faggot in denial
>a self-insert godlike figure that just happens to look the same as bakker
Someone said it was a power fantasy and they’re right.

[Anonymous No.19500940]

>>19497724
>Why you even hang out in this thread, if you dislike the author/books so much?
Who do you think is making all the Bakker related posts outside of sffg? Its people assblasted he is being talked about in the fantasy general.

[Anonymous No.19500986]

>>19496908
They look pretty based.

[Anonymous No.19500993]

>>19500986
Indeed. I was there. It wasn't a large crowd by any means, but everyone was a fucking bro.

[Anonymous No.19501044]

>>19500886
>>a self-insert godlike figure that just happens to look the same as bakker
Just when I think it, Bakker couldn't even get more sadder and more pathetic, he delivers.

[Anonymous No.19501069]

>>19498420
It's likely him in this and the sffg thread responding vociferously to all the anti-Bakker posts

[Anonymous No.19501089]

>>19501069
I believe it. Shit, I mean someone >>19498963 his critique of rationalism is retarded and not a minute later you have >>19498968

[Anonymous No.19501099]

NGL, feels good to come back 8 hours later and see this thread still up.

Thank you for promoting my books.

[Anonymous No.19501117]

>>19501099
When is the No-God coming out?

[Anonymous No.19501127]

>>19501117
Soon

[Anonymous No.19501136]

>>19501099
>mingling with whores
So, not only is a far-leftist, but he’s also a degenerate. No wonder Reddit loves him.

[Anonymous No.19501138]

FYI. I'm going to continue Bakker-posting on /sffg/ forever and there's nothing you can do about it.
And I haven't even read him

[Anonymous No.19501143]

>>19501138
Based.

[Anonymous No.19501149]

>>19501138
>sffg
It’s dead though.

[Anonymous No.19501153]

>>19501149
No, not really.

[Anonymous No.19501158]

>>19501138
The thing with most modern fantasy like Bakker is it's just not very good. I don't understand how the genre consistently churns out such generic and uninspired shit. And I say this as a huge fantasy fan and have been since a child.

There seems to be a trend to try and break away from the
>elves, dwarves, dragons
tropes but the issue is that most of these authors aren't very good at creating alternatives so you end up with not-elves and not-dwarves.
Then there's the nomenclature and naming. It seems half the characters, factions and foils are in there purely because the author thought "umbral covenant sounds cool, let's make a faction up to use that name". A book is meant to tell a story, not just showcase hecking cool bad guys and sorcerers.
On the flip side you have idiots like Jordan who's making antagonist in WoT is literally called "the Dark One".

It seems a lot of fantasy authors are entitled and feel their work should automatically get praise just because they spent years working on it. And even after years of such work, the result is usually bland and unoriginal. Fantasy fiction needs to be recognised as a rarity, not everyone can do it and not everyone should

[Anonymous No.19501161]

>>19501149
It's not, though.

[Anonymous No.19501164]

>>19501149
Kinda sad they killed it. Only place to talk about books. But what else did we expect from redditors

[Anonymous No.19501167]

>>19501149
Yeah, I know. It's called /Bakker-gen/ now.

Cope.

[Anonymous No.19501171]

>>19501158
You're retarded for putting everything in the same bag. So you either haven't read much, are are simply dumb.

[Anonymous No.19501180]

>>19501164
Not my problem.

[Anonymous No.19501187]

>>19501171
>You're retarded
Oh ok then

[Anonymous No.19501194]

>>19501158
>It seems a lot of fantasy authors are entitled and feel their work should automatically get praise just because they spent years working on it.
Unironically fits Bakker to a T. Guy seems incredibly petty and obsessed. His early blog posts are just a shining beacon of salt because his writing wasn't appreciated enough. Like the link in the OP.
>BECAUSE FANTASY ISN'T TAKEN SERIOUSLY!!!
He's so autistic he never once considered he's the problem. Ironic, too, since in a podcast one time they asked him some question about people felt about the books and he got triggered and sounded slightly offended, answering with,
>Well, I don't care how people feel, they're my books, I'll write them how I please.
You just know this is the type of guy that thinks everyone that criticizes him is too stupid to understand him or has ulterior motives and bullies his associates to stroke his ego. He unironically emanates insane beta energy, which is probably why he made himself a god-like self-insert in his book.

[Anonymous No.19501202]

>>19501164
Let it go, sweetie. There's always >>>/a/ for you. Or, like you've mentioned at least 20 times in this thread already, Reddit. The good thing is that you left /sffg/ for good.

[Anonymous No.19501215]

>>19501194
You sound resentful and jealous and it's clear for everyone. I don't understand how someone can distil so much hate over some random author they've never met. Unironically have sex.

[Anonymous No.19501225]

>>19501194
You got a link to the podcast? I want to see a grown man throw a tantrum because of a basic question.

[Anonymous No.19501228]

>>19501194
>You just know this is the type of guy that thinks everyone that criticizes him is too stupid to understand him
This is why I think it's him in sffg. I posted a plainly ridiculous excerpt from his wiki and the comment was "what's pretentious about it?" "you just don't understand it, not my fault you're a retard". Thing is, it's not hard to understand. Essentially it's
>humans have conceptual and cognitive blindspots cos they're just 3lbs of brain in a monkey suit
which is literal Reddit-tier shit. It's the epitome of picrel, the sort of shit I'd post on Facebook when I was 17 and just discovering pop science. He thinks inventing new words for his ideas masks them with an air of professionalism.
Essentially what I'm saying Bakker is, yes you've made some interesting points which could give a fantasy novel a bit of a twist. But they're not revolutionary. Everyone comes to these conclusions when they're stoned, my dude.

[Anonymous No.19501231]

>>19501215
It really is pathetic, especially when the guy isn't even around anymore, or hasn't been for the past years or so.

[Anonymous No.19501235]

>>19501215
This wasn't even worth writing, anon
>you're jealous
>have sex
Please raise your effort levels if you're gonna discuss this with us. We have every right to ask for standards in a genre we enjoy.

[Anonymous No.19501237]

>>19491773
Fucking kekd
t. a bakkerfag

[Anonymous No.19501239]

>>19501228
>Phone poster still seething, three days later after being absolutely ass-blasted.
>Still no argument.
>Still rent-free.

[Anonymous No.19501240]

>>19501231
>especially when the guy isn't even around anymore
You ain't fooling anyone Bakker-san

[Anonymous No.19501243]

>>19501240
Does it trouble you?

[Anonymous No.19501246]

>>19501235
>you're jealous

[Anonymous No.19501251]

>>19501228
>But they're not revolutionary. Everyone comes to these conclusions when they're stoned, my dude.
I think it’s why he’s so defensive. He probably did have those conclusions when he stoned out of his mind. But as other anons have noted here, better people went more in-depth than him.

[Anonymous No.19501258]

>>19501239
>>Phone poster
Ok, and?
>still seething, three days later after being absolutely ass-blasted
I've seen no decent arguments to what I've said at all, so I'm not sure how I'm assblasted (maybe you think it's just the one critic ITT?). And commenting on this thread from time to time when I check on /lit/ is hardly seething. I'm enjoying discussing my gripes with the fantasy genre at present, Bakker being a good example. I don't hate him, I just hate what authors like him represent to the genre.
>Still no argument.
I've made many cogent arguments, you're just emotionally invested in what is just a discussion because you have socialization issues
>Still rent-free
Yes, thoughts occupy my mind and propel other thoughts to emerge based on my biases and opinions. As I said, I have every right to be interested in a genre I'm a fan of.

[Anonymous No.19501303]

>>19491770
Bakker is a fucking insufferable faggot, and the reason why fantasy is not taken seriously is that fucking Second Apocalypse is literally the best fantasy series written in the last 30 years.

It's not good. It's just better than the rest of the trash. Bakker being the peak of this trash heap empathises exactly why modern fantasy is kill. None of it is any good.

[Anonymous No.19501312]

>>19501303
As an aspiring fantasy author please tell me why it was shit so I know what tropes to avoid.

[Anonymous No.19501315]

Prince of Nothing is one of the best examples of high fantasy and completely mogs Lord of the Rings.

[Anonymous No.19501317]

>>19501312
You need to learn how to read first.

[Anonymous No.19501324]

Why isn't Bakker on this pile if he's so liberal?

[Anonymous No.19501327]

>>19501258
They won't argue with you because they have no argument.

[Anonymous No.19501332]

If my publisher sent me back this as the cover for my latest book I'd fucking sue them

[Anonymous No.19501336]

>>19501303
>Second Apocalypse is literally the best fantasy series written in the last 30 years
You should read more. I recommend Gavriel Kay’s The Fionavar Tapestry and The Sarantinr Mosaic.

[Anonymous No.19501342]

>>19501324
>these authors have been declared free of doctrinal error

[Anonymous No.19501344]

>>19501332
That's because Western artists suck dick.

[Anonymous No.19501345]

>>19501327
If they're just touchy about a series that means a lot to them I understand. I'm the same with Frank Herbert. But I accept and understand people's issues with him and I don't take it personally because they're not my books. I also have a grasp on my autism

[Anonymous No.19501351]

>>19501324
>Wizarding world
Even when they insult her they can't escape using her words lmao

[Anonymous No.19501357]

>>19501336
>Literally WHO
Stop shilling your books, literally no one cares.

[Anonymous No.19501358]

>>19501336
>Gavriel Kay’s

[Anonymous No.19501366]

>>19501336
>Kay's stylistic flourishes made this a frustrating read. Pronouns and honorifics are overused, to the point of unclarity. The word "murmured" is used with outsized frequency (133 occurrences). Better editting would have allowed this epic tale to truly shine.

Imagine comparing that shit to Bakker.

[Anonymous No.19501378]

>>19496409
Holy shit, is this guy really that good?

[Anonymous No.19501380]

>>19501345
Nah, it's clear they just have no argument. Just greentext and an image.

[Anonymous No.19501385]

>>19501312
It's painfully repetitive most of the time and uses way too much space on establishing "cultural context" read: going for shock value, to the point it stops eliciting any sort of response. Most of characters are not made to be likeable, which is alright, but they are also not made to be interesting or sympathetic, which is awful.
>U-huh, another 1000000 people died in this gruelling tragedy. Again.
>U-huh, Esmeneth reminiscences about sucking dicks for nutrition. Again.
>U-huh, Conphas is engaging in his megalomaniacal antics. Again.
>U-huh, Serwe is being a dumb cunt. Again.
>U-huh, Cnaiur is ruminating on how insane he is. Again.
>U-huh, Akka is being a sad tormented bitch. Again.
>When was the last time plot was happening? Eight, nine chapters before?

The absolute most of it doesn't serve to establish anything at all. If you cut out all the filler of repetition and gay rape murder genocides, you'd be left with like, 30 pages worth of cool imagery and fancy ideas. But Bakker never learned to write interesting characters and interactions in order to expand those scraps into a proper series.

>>19501336
Anon, the Tapestry ended 35 years ago, you have to let go.

[Anonymous No.19501401]

>>19501332
Who even are the creepy starey guys in the Second Apocalypse book covers?

[Anonymous No.19501407]

>>19501385
This guy said Frank Herbert was a big influence and it really shows. It shows a bit too much

[Anonymous No.19501413]

>>19501385
It's an introspective book. Some people enjoy reading the emotional dirge through which the characters are going within their minds.

[Anonymous No.19501418]

>>19501407
>This guy said Frank Herbert was a big influence and it really shows.
I, at the very least could read Frank’s works. Couldn’t do the same with Bakker.

>100 pages into first apocalypse book
>the love of one of pov character is literally selling her body while he watched her do so. she's standing on her balcony welcoming him back home, as she's fresh from the downdicking
>their big love story is actually pov character going after (but never finding) a sex customer that hurt the girl.
Dropped it after that and never looked back.

[Anonymous No.19501423]

>>19501385
>Cnaiur
I hate this trend of just making up names too, especially when they just sound ridiculous
>it's meant to emphasize how fantastical the world is!
I thought Bakker was "a scholar of ancient languages"?
Whenever I see someone described as a "scholar" I immediately know they're gonna be fucking insufferable. As far as I was aware, a scholar is someone who is awarded a scholarship.

[Anonymous No.19501427]

>>19501303
Bakker is the only worthwhile living fantasy author. Pretty much everything else is trash.

[Anonymous No.19501431]

>>19501418
It's called being gritty anon! It's shocking cos it's a fantasy novel but it isn't kid friendly!

[Anonymous No.19501434]

>>19501418
...but you were OK with a faction sex ninjas that enslave men through mindblowing snu-snu?

[Anonymous No.19501440]

>I hate this trend of just making up names too, especially when they just sound ridiculous
Imagine being filtered by names

[Anonymous No.19501443]

>>19501427

[Anonymous No.19501444]

>>19501434
Just shows how much I like Frank’s story.

[Anonymous No.19501447]

>>19501407
Herbert wouldn't wipe his ass with anything Bakker wrote.

>>19501413
>It's an introspective book. Some people enjoy reading the emotional dirge through which the characters are going within their minds.
And it would be great, if there was anything worthwhile in reading how much upset poor Akka is about being a cuck.

Good, introspective narrative is fucking hard, and Bakker is not fucking Dostoyevsky. He's done shitting all over it, but he remembered to sprinkle some profound aphorisms on top so that it doesn't smell so much.

[Anonymous No.19501452]

>>19501427
You're not wrong, but you will be surprised to learn that good fantasy is simply called "fiction".

[Anonymous No.19501453]

>>19501434
But that's actually unique and isn't just shlock shock value shit. The BG are one of the most interesting, in-depth and unique factions in literary fiction. Or are you on about the Honored Matres? Sounds more like them

[Anonymous No.19501461]

>>19501447
I don't understand why Bakker triggers you so much. What's your point exactly?

[Anonymous No.19501462]

>>19501440
Not a valid argument

[Anonymous No.19501467]

>>19501423
>I hate this trend of just making up names too, especially when they just sound ridiculous
Cnaiur is relatively alright. Most of his other names suck ass, tho - not for being ridiculous, but for simply blending together all the time.

[Anonymous No.19501470]

>Doesn't know what an argument is
Many such cases.

[Anonymous No.19501477]

>>19501461
I already made it >>19501303

[Anonymous No.19501482]

>>19501477
Yes, and?

[Anonymous No.19501483]

>>19501418
>Cuckoldry
>Cucked Protagonist.
Do people really? This shit is no different than with Rothfuss.

[Anonymous No.19501487]

>>19501467
This is the issue. On the one hand I hated Dune for its fucking ridiculous name choices
>Duncan Idaho, really Frank?
but when you're just making long-ass names to stand out it doesn't work. At least apply some linguistics and make some legible names.

[Anonymous No.19501494]

>>19501434
God Emperor was the last book in the series and you can't convince me otherwise.

>>19501453
>But that's actually unique and isn't just shlock shock value shit.
It is kinda the latter.

>The BG
He obviously means the Honored Matres.
>factions
Factions are a meme. A writer focuses on factions when he can't write characters.

[Anonymous No.19501498]

>>19501482
This is a thread responding to Bakker's "can fantasy fiction be a serious genre?". The arguments in it are a critique of that and the problems anons thus have which makes fantasy fiction not a serious genre. Bakker is lucky he gets this much of a serious consideration.

[Anonymous No.19501508]

>>19501494
Much of Dune needs to be viewed through the lens of the period in which it was written i.e. the 60s. Weirdo sexual fixations permeated everything during that time.

[Anonymous No.19501521]

>>19501498
All you've stated are Ad hominems in your "arguments". What have you written yourself exactly? Do you have a thesis in anything? If so, can you show us? Because all I sense from your posts is a moderate amount of jealousy. Please provide actual arguments and valid criticism, otherwise you'll end up looking like an idiot. I have never read this guy's books, but I doubt you have either.

[Anonymous No.19501534]

>>19501447
>Herbert wouldn't wipe his ass with anything Bakker wrote.
Herbert's prose was not nearly as good.

[Anonymous No.19501535]

>>19501483
The excess of cuckoldry is one of the clear examples of where Bakker had no concept of measure. Esmeneth plays exactly NO role in the first trilogy beyond being a vagina that other character use to cuck each other with.

I mean, I'm no r*dditor to be triggered by
>muh demeaning portrayal of women
but, why is this in the book? What purpose does it serve? To show how tortured poor Akka is? I think I get it from his 60+ pages of non-stop bitching and self-pitying.

>>19501521
>Please provide actual arguments and valid criticism
I already did here >>19501385 >>19501447

[Anonymous No.19501541]

>>19501534
There is no good prose in the Second Apocalypse, and I read all of it.

[Anonymous No.19501544]

>>19501483
>>19498198
>>19496862
>>19496632
>>19492478
Unironically didn't read.

[Anonymous No.19501554]

>>19501541
You're wrong, but I couldn't care less.

[Anonymous No.19501563]

>>19501541

[Anonymous No.19501573]

>Being triggered about cuckolding in a book
I would too, If I was a cuck myself.

[Anonymous No.19501583]

>>19501521
I think you're confusing me with other anons. Not once have I criticised Bakker's character. I have no qualms with his character (beyond him coming across as a bit pretentious and pseudo-profound but if he's genuinely autistic I can forgive such blindspots. Plus weed will do that to you!) There's many authors who I don't like personally- I think GRRM is an insufferable cunt, but I won't deny I love his books. My issue is with Bakker's writings and what they represent in modern FF.

If you read over the posts you'll easily identify my comments, as they're the ones where I'm criticising the unoroginality of authors like Bakker and his leaning on his philosophy as if it's some grand revelation despite much of it being rather unoroginal and unnecessarily wordy. The fact his wiki states he's a philosopher first and an author second speaks volumes.

Just stating "you're jealous" isn't an argument either. I'm certainly not jealous of an author who regularly gets shit on and who's own colleagues regard him as a "children's author". If you mean I'm *envious*, well I'm envious of all successful authors as I hope to be one myself one day. That doesn't make me harbour any animus toward them.

As for presenting a thesis in anything, what do you mean? You're not making an appeal to authority fallacy are you? Is my criticism irrelevant because I aren't a published academic?

[Anonymous No.19501587]

>>19501541
Are so pathetic as to not be able to concede a single quality about Bakker's writing? I would unironically like to see your publications, myself. You can criticize everything about Bakker, but saying that the man can't write makes you look like a massive retard.

[Anonymous No.19501592]

>>19501583
>>19501535
Two different people btw, to the one person arguing with both of them

[Anonymous No.19501606]

>>19501587
>Are so pathetic as to not be able to concede a single quality about Bakker's writing
But I already did that here >>19501385
>you'd be left with like, 30 pages worth of cool imagery and fancy ideas
He did come up with that.

[Anonymous No.19501607]

the goal of good sf and fantasy isn't characters or story, but commentary on meta history, good series take pace over centuries and millennia and are an examination of how civilizations, grow, develop, and die

[Anonymous No.19501614]

>>19501607
>the goal of good sf isn't characters or story, but commentary on meta history
Yes.
>and fantasy
There is no fantasy like that.

[Anonymous No.19501619]

>>19495395
I only read the Hobbit, and guess maybe I was filtered by it ?
What's so special ? It's a somewhat fun story about a handful of somewhat funny characters. Maybe it was influential to the fantasy genre, but overall I found it a pretty average read.

[Anonymous No.19501622]

>>19501607
This is a very subjective take. A lot modern fantasy and sf stands on the detail of the characters alone.

[Anonymous No.19501626]

>>19501587
Based and truth-pilled.

[Anonymous No.19501642]

>>19501606
I like how you have arguments, and they don't.

[Anonymous No.19501657]

>>19501587
This thb.

[Anonymous No.19501664]

>>19501541
You must have struck a nerve if they samefag that much

[Anonymous No.19501684]

>>19496411
>in our materialist based economy.
As opposed to a spiritual based economy ?
You're retarded, drop the intellectual façade.

[Anonymous No.19501705]

You know when someone just has a face that tells you that person is a fucking insufferable, arrogant and malicious prick?
Yeah, that's Bakker

[Anonymous No.19501709]

>>19501541
You got anymore critique?

[Anonymous No.19501721]

>>19501385
The most telling moment for me was when I was finishing the series and my gf (female) asked me to tell her about it. So I went
>"Well there this guy from like a secluded materialist-Buddhist sect whose members are like living supercomputers who strive to free themselves from all emotional affection and trauma and become beings of pure reason, and he manipulates everybody in order to gain power."
>"And there are these wizards who gain awesome magical knowledge and also PTSD fixation from constantly reliving the life of an ancient wizard who saved the world from uberrape in their dreams."
>"And there are these like fantasy aliens who are like bipedal dinosaurs with human faces in their moths, who cannot distinguish between concepts of love and rape, and they want to kill basically everybody so that they can escape afterlife of eternal assbuggery, which is otherwise mandatory for everyone."
>"And there's like Christianity with apostolic authors, councils and history and shit, but sorta polytheistic, with numerous gods being aspects of Christian-like God, and those other Gods are definitely real and do shit all around"
>And there are elves but they are fucking insane and autistic.
>And there are some really badass Mongols, and one of them is really fucking insane and also a central character.

And that was about it. At this point I realized that I don't have anything more to tell, really. When she started asking about more specifics, I just opened the page in TTT, where Conphas remembers how he once masturbated using his imperial battle standard, showed her that and said that the rest of it is basically this.

[Anonymous No.19501739]

>>19501721
>"Well there this guy from like a secluded materialist-Buddhist sect whose members are like living supercomputers who strive to free themselves from all emotional affection and trauma and become beings of pure reason, and he manipulates everybody in order to gain power."
So...BG from Dune
>"And there are these wizards who gain awesome magical knowledge and also PTSD fixation from constantly reliving the life of an ancient wizard who saved the world from uberrape in their dreams."
So...BG from Dune?
>"And there's like Christianity with apostolic authors, councils and history and shit, but sorta polytheistic, with numerous gods being aspects of Christian-like God, and those other Gods are definitely real and do shit all around"
So... religion a la Dune?
>And there are elves but they are fucking insane and autistic.
So...Tleilaxu from Dune?
>>And there are some really badass Mongols, and one of them is really fucking insane and also a central character.
>So...Fremen from Dune?

[Anonymous No.19501746]

>>19501739
Nah, those from Dune were definitely better.

[Anonymous No.19501777]

There is probably 3 persons in this thread that have read the Second Apocalypse series and they are all defending Bakker.

Not only is the worldbuilding good, so is the prose and so is the underlying premise and theme of the books. That series has left a lasting impression on me.

[Anonymous No.19501780]

Imagine being the 2 people in a dead thread seething about a literal Canadian WHO.

[Anonymous No.19501788]

>>19501777
Checked.

[Anonymous No.19501789]

>>19501721
Seems you win since the bakkerfags can’t come up with any arguments.

[Anonymous No.19501791]

>>19491857
This post. You don't have to like the author, and the author can be a miserably cunt, but he or she still might write very good books.

[Anonymous No.19501794]

>>19501777
I'm happy for you anon, but that doesn't change the fact that Bakker represents many things wrong with the genre at present and also needs to really get over himself and stop fixating on his silly weed-induced "ideas"

[Anonymous No.19501804]

>>19501791
The issue is that he doesn't.

[Anonymous No.19501805]

>>19501794
Not my problem.
I'm glad you're upset and wasting your time hating him. You're promoting him, and that makes me happy.

[Anonymous No.19501812]

>>19501805
Are you delusional?

[Anonymous No.19501813]

>>19501794
Are people here actually complaining about genre books conforming to the genre standards?

>>19501721
The shit goes to much deeper in the last four books.

>>19501739
Like this post tells it. It hard to be actually, really original, and even if you are. People will find an analogue.

[Anonymous No.19501814]

>>19491857
Where is this from? The prose looks very rich.

[Anonymous No.19501816]

>>19501805
I'm not upset, I'm having a conversation about things I'm interested in. And I don't hate him, given I've never even met him. And I'm not promoting him. I'm discussing people like him in a random thread that perhaps 5 people are contributing toward. That is not promotion, I'm afraid to tell you.

[Anonymous No.19501818]

>>19501814
American psycho.

[Anonymous No.19501824]

>I'm not upset

[Anonymous No.19501825]

>>19501805
Lol fuck off Bakker

[Anonymous No.19501827]

>>19501814
The start of it is from The False Sun, its an appendix to the 7th book. The last 50 % of the text is obviously not part of the original text.

[Anonymous No.19501832]

>>19501824
Learn to take an L my dude

[Anonymous No.19501845]

>>19501816
It is, sweetie. The more you seethe about Bakker, the more threads and discussions are made about him. I know, because that's how I started reading him. I thought he was trash too. But one should not judge a book by its cover, which is why I eventually gave in a tried it for myself.

Like I said, Thank you :)

[Anonymous No.19501852]

>>19501824
>No argument.

[Anonymous No.19501858]

My story was the typical one. I browse /sffg/ for some recommendations on what to read. Then after some lurking I come across many people recommending the The Prince of Nothing series. I read the back cover text and was mildly intrigued. It turned out to be completely different to what I expected. I turned out to be something too good. Other fantasy just doesn't do the same for me anymore. It was one the best fantasy book series to read, but the worst as well; I can no longer enjoy other fantasy the same way.

[Anonymous No.19501862]

>>19501832
You need to be 18 to post here.

[Anonymous No.19501869]

Are bakkerfags children? Posting shit meme does nothing.

[Anonymous No.19501873]

>>19501845
>It is, sweetie. The more you seethe about Bakker, the more threads and discussions are made about him
As I stated earlier, I have no qualms against him as a person. I also have no desire to make endless threads about him. I'm not sure how many people you think visit /lit/, read fantasy or get recommendations from this board but I'd be pretty pissed if my only promotion was via threads on here.

>I know, because that's how I started reading him. I thought he was trash too. But one should not judge a book by its cover, which is why I eventually gave in a tried it for myself.
Good for you. I'm sure I'll read more of him in due time also. My issue was with what *I have* read (and his general writings and stance). You talk about Bakker like he's some sort of virus.

>Like I said, Thank you :)
If you want me to read the rest of your books Bakker, just say so.

[Anonymous No.19501876]

>>19501869
>Does it trouble you?

[Anonymous No.19501878]

>>19501869
It clearly makes you seethe considering how much you've same fagged this thread.

[Anonymous No.19501880]

>>19501878
Oh, the irony of this statement.

[Anonymous No.19501883]

>>19501853
Can't tell if autist or Bakker seething

[Anonymous No.19501889]

>>19501883
It's Bakker seething

[Anonymous No.19501910]

>>19501889
He deleted his post. Sad!
Seriously Bakker just fuck off and accept some people won't like your books you petulant sperg. And do something about that rosacea, you look disgusting!

[Anonymous No.19501919]

>>19501910
>He deleted his post.
Imagine being this new.

[Anonymous No.19501922]

>>19501910
he should also stop samefagging

[Anonymous No.19501943]

>>19501845
>the more you seethe about Bakker, the more threads and discussions are made about him
This thread is right down near the bottom of the catalogue kek

[Anonymous No.19501958]

>>19501943
That happens when you reach the bump limit

[Anonymous No.19501960]

>>19501943
Retard.

[Anonymous No.19501963]

>>19501622
that stuff isn't serious literature though

[Anonymous No.19501965]

>>19501958
>>19501960
>replying to obvious bait

[Anonymous No.19501972]

>>19501845
I don't think people want to read about a leftist, TDS schizo.

[Anonymous No.19501977]

>>19501965
I'm replying to my own bait. I'm ahead of the game.

[Anonymous No.19501993]

>Fantasy, what's not to like?

>Yeah, I read fantasy, how did you know?

[Anonymous No.19501997]

>>19501972
>I don't think people want to read about a leftist, TDS schizo.
I read GRRM and hes a feminist faggot. Dunno about his TDS levels. Its mainly just the
>whoa so deep dued shit that turns me off

[Anonymous No.19501999]

>>19501997
>Dunno about his TDS levels.
They’re pretty high.

[Anonymous No.19502003]

>>19501972
Let it go, sweetie. You lost.

[Anonymous No.19502011]

>>19502003
Not him, but lost what? You fags haven’t argued shit.

[Anonymous No.19502016]

>>19501999
>>19501997
>>19501972
Imagine having nothing to go on so you try to ad-hominem the author instead of reading the books and pointing out the bad writing.

[Anonymous No.19502022]

>>19502003
Bakker, kindly leave. We've asked several times now.

[Anonymous No.19502027]

>>19502016
>reading the books and pointing out the bad writing.
Someone did that already. You ignore it.

[Anonymous No.19502028]

>>19502003
I haven't seen so much seething on /lit/ in a very long tome. Their arguments have been absolutely BTFO throughout the thread.

[Anonymous No.19502029]

>>19502016
The character of an author inherently affects the quality of their work. I wouldn't read a book by a downs syndrome person.

[Anonymous No.19502036]

>>19502022
>Is Bakker in this room right now?

[Anonymous No.19502037]

>>19502027
No, not really.

[Anonymous No.19502040]

>>19502027
Because they got no counter argument.

[Anonymous No.19502047]

>>19502037
>>19502040
Why are those who accuse others of seething and losing always the most seething of losers?

[Anonymous No.19502049]

>>19502047
Joke's on you. I've never read Bakker.

[Anonymous No.19502056]

>>19502027
No one did that, though.

[Anonymous No.19502063]

>>19501873
>>19501816
>>19501794
>>19501721
>>19501583
>>19501447
>>19501385
Wasted effort post. But insightful though.

[Anonymous No.19502070]

>>19502056
Anyone can read the thread and see plenty of arguments and criticisms. You bitterly denying it doesn't erase those comments. Let it go, the thread has died. Many people have criticisms of Bakker and for good reason.

[Anonymous No.19502072]

>>19501777
I read the Second Apocalypse and while I say that he's the best in the last 3 decades, I also say he's still shit. The rest are just worse.

[Anonymous No.19502074]

New thread >>19502066
New thread >>19502066

[Anonymous No.19502084]

>>19502074
The discussion ended, the thread is dead.

[Anonymous No.19502116]

>>19502070
This

[Anonymous No.19502135]

>>19502070
Incorrect.

[Anonymous No.19502136]

>>19502084
Just post your arguments in the next thread so people can see it.

[Anonymous No.19502144]

>>19502136
I won't. You ignored them here, so you'll probably ignore them there.

[Anonymous No.19502151]

>>19502084
Cope.

[Anonymous No.19502159]

>>19502144
Didn’t ignore them. I agree with you and defended you. They have no counter argument.

[Anonymous No.19502165]

>>19502144
>>19502159
Who are you kidding, you will jump straight to the other thread and bump it for free.

Thank you :)

[Anonymous No.19502226]

>>19502074
Well, that settles that. Bakkerfags do samefag.

[Anonymous No.19502242]

>>19502226
Didn't ask.

[Anonymous No.19502328]

>>19502242
Pathetic.

[Anonymous No.19502335]

>>19502328
No my problem.

[Anonymous No.19502349]

>Pathetic.

[Anonymous No.19502839]

>>19500349
You're really getting the wrong impression if you think PoN is Isekai-tier. If you like fantasy just read the series, it's well written and not cliché, which is about as much as anyone can ask for.