Why are leftist intellectuals almost never able to address the failures of past socialist/communist systems? Are there any who actually talk about them and offer realistic alternatives?

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Anonymous Thu Nov 25 08:42:27 2021 No.19459702 [DELETED]

Why are leftist intellectuals almost never able to address the failures of past socialist/communist systems? Are there any who actually talk about them and offer realistic alternatives?

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 12:27:58 2021 No.19460629 >>19459702 Yes, the two you posted in the image

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 12:33:09 2021 No.19460652 >>19459702 Your question is equal to "why do many imams shy away from criticizing Islamist regimes?" Leftism is their religion. They are priests of that religion. They are not going to spread heretical beliefs.

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 12:33:27 2021 No.19460654 >>19459702 there's no such thing as socialist/communist systems

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 12:35:16 2021 No.19460666 >>19460652 But many imams do criticize Islamist regimes lol

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 12:35:52 2021 No.19460672 >>19460654 This is how they address it.

Anonymous Thu Nov 25 12:41:41 2021 No.19460707

>>19460666
Leftists are more fanatic and dogmatic than Muslims, A Muslim can be reasoned with, but a Leftist is blind to logic or critical thinking. If I had a button that would replace every commie with a Muslim I would press it in a heartbeat.

Honestly desu I am past being tired when it comes to leftists. There are some leftist anons here who post the most stupid drivel, get called out on it, and end up getting utterly BTFO and proving themselves to be hypocrites in the process. The next day, they'll be back to posting long essays about their garbage thinking, like nothing ever happened. I don't know whether to laugh or just sit back in awe at this behavior.

Anonymous Thu Nov 25 12:44:56 2021 No.19460731

>>19460707
Honestly desu I am past being tired when it comes to rightists. There are some rightist anons here who post the most stupid drivel, get called out on it, and end up getting utterly BTFO and proving themselves to be hypocrites in the process. The next day, they'll be back to posting long essays about their garbage thinking, like nothing ever happened. I don't know whether to laugh or just sit back in awe at this behavior.

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 12:56:04 2021 No.19460818 >>19460731 Typical passive aggressive leftist post

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 12:56:49 2021 No.19460827 >>19460818 Typical passive aggressive rightist post

Anonymous Thu Nov 25 12:58:39 2021 No.19460843

>>19460707
>Leftists are more fanatic and dogmatic than Muslims, A Muslim can be reasoned with, but a Leftist is blind to logic or critical thinking. If I had a button that would replace every commie with a Muslim I would press it in a heartbeat.
There he goes again making bad faith arguments. How do you even address this when he will make a claim that leftists are arguing in bad faith. It doesn't even matter may as well argue with the wall

Anonymous Thu Nov 25 13:00:23 2021 No.19460858

>>19460629
These two run constant apologetics for red fascism. They have some interesting ideas and critiques of the United States, but fall flat when dealing with anyone else. It's clear that they're simply playing party politics, and it's disgusting.

Anonymous Thu Nov 25 13:05:03 2021 No.19460895

>>19460858
Chomsky has been ridiculed BY SOME LEFTISTS for saying that the fall of the soviet Union was a good thing for leftism.
Zizek is fond of using Stalinist/soviet bureaucracy as a premise for his jokes and observations.
I would actually say these two were the worst OP could have picked for the point he's trying to make, at least academics like Richard Wolff try to defend the soviet and Chinese socialist projects from a materialist standpoint.
So yeah, you are dumb and so is OP.

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 13:11:02 2021 No.19460932 File: 65 KB, 1730x235, Commies.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19459702 This.

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 13:17:40 2021 No.19460964 Has an Marxist ever given an analysis of the crusades that aren’t based on disdpriven or absurd lines such as the crusaders being younger less fortunate sons or nobles in France caring about trade routes?

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 13:37:36 2021 No.19461072 >>19460707 >Leftists are more fanatic and dogmatic than Muslims Do you mean the political wing that always split, criticized itself and has problems with constant infighting is somehow dogmatic?

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 13:39:24 2021 No.19461081 >>19461072 They unite absolutely against le fascists, even liberals who are supposed to be right wing join in

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 13:41:08 2021 No.19461097 >>19461072 Every religion has its schisms. Marxism is no different.

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 13:42:28 2021 No.19461106 >>19460672 >they

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 13:43:52 2021 No.19461116 >>19461097 Marxism doesn't believe in God, hence it is inferior to a theocratic state. It worships flesh and material. I would 100 percent support a Christian communist/anarchist/monarchist/absolutist on the other hand.

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 14:02:38 2021 No.19461244 >>19460843 So much of right wing thought is either based on fringe conspiracy theories and appeals to emotion that bad faith arguing is the only way they can appear to have any legitimacy

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 14:04:30 2021 No.19461257 >>19461244 >fringe conspiracy theories This means of course "not blindly accepting establishment narratives as if they have no motive to lie or obscure".

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 14:41:04 2021 No.19461504 >>19461257 No I mean throwing Occam's Razor out the window and blaming everything bad in the world on elite cabals that are evil for evil's sake

Anonymous Thu Nov 25 14:52:25 2021 No.19461591

>>19459702
All of academia is running on early 20th century memeplexes that are demonstrably false.
Institutions do not like correcting foundational errors/changing paradigms.
An alternate academic paradigm could hypothetically emerge, studying incentives and game theory and psychology etc--basically, empiricism instead of theory

Anonymous Thu Nov 25 15:01:31 2021 No.19461656

>>19460707
>There are some leftist anons here who post the most stupid drivel, get called out on it, and end up getting utterly BTFO and proving themselves to be hypocrites in the process. The next day, they'll be back to posting long essays about their garbage thinking, like nothing ever happened. I don't know whether to laugh or just sit back in awe at this behavior.
I see what you did there. It's just as true now as it was a century ago, if not moreso.

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 15:02:21 2021 No.19461661 >>19461504 Evil for power and worldly pleasure and wealth

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 15:04:07 2021 No.19461673 Imagine caring about regime change level politics with a net worth less than $25M

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 15:16:15 2021 No.19461769 >>19461673 Communists will kill you if you are in the lower middle class or richer, anon.

Anonymous Thu Nov 25 15:17:59 2021 No.19461785
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>>19459702
>Are there any who actually talk about them and offer realistic alternatives?
Yes. Marxist-Leninists grouped within the IMCWP (this includes every major communist party in the world and every ruling communist party in the world). Of course, what they say isn’t new or interesting or a shiny toy so nobody is interested, they only talk real politics and real solutions.

Anonymous Thu Nov 25 15:29:04 2021 No.19461870

>>19461769
Communist revolutions only succeed against feudalism. Liberal (and "post-liberal") societies are anti-fragile against it since they've managed to both bribe the poor with welfare programs and make communism into a intellectual pursuit of the second sons (and daughters) of the bourgeoisie (i.e. a dead end).

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 15:35:21 2021 No.19461912 Stop caring about leftists. Leftists are subhuman cattle.

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 15:35:56 2021 No.19461915 >>19461785 >they only talk real politics and real solutions. >Communists Pick one

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 15:39:24 2021 No.19461933 >>19461769 I don't think so anon. Mao said the petit bourg. are allies of the communist project. and to be suspicious of the "middle upper class." and above.

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 17:45:03 2021 No.19462691 >>19461933 Petite bourgeoisie become Stirnerites.

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 18:00:03 2021 No.19462765 >>19460707 This reads similarly to the Mein Kampf paragraph, something about jelly and ignorance of yesterday.

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 18:01:50 2021 No.19462776 File: 2.46 MB, 640x480, meds.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19460652

Anonymous Thu Nov 25 18:10:13 2021 No.19462834

>>19461116
>It worships flesh and material.
???

I am absolutely against the publication of "Stories of the childhood of Stalin."

The book abounds with a mass of inexactitudes of fact, of alterations, of exaggerations and of unmerited praise. Some amateur writers, scribblers, (perhaps honest scribblers) and some adulators have led the author astray. It is a shame for the author, but a fact remains a fact.

But this is not the important thing. The important thing resides in the fact that the book has a tendency to engrave on the minds of Soviet children (and people in general) the personality cult of leaders, of infallible heroes. This is dangerous and detrimental.

The theory of "heroes" and the "crowd" is not a Bolshevik, but a Social-Revolutionary theory. The heroes make the people, transform them from a crowd into people, thus say the Social-Revolutionaries.

The people make the heroes, thus reply the Bolsheviks to the Social-Revolutionaries. The book carries water to the windmill of the Social-Revolutionaries. No matter which book it is that brings the water to the windmill of the Social-Revolutionaries, this book is going to drown in our common, Bolshevik cause.

I suggest we burn this book.

---

Comrade Shatunovsky, [...]

8) You speak of your "devotion" to me. Perhaps it was just a chance phrase. Perhaps. . . . But if the phrase was not accidental I would advise you to discard the "principle" of devotion to persons. It is not the Bolshevik way. Be devoted to the working class, its Party, its state. That is a fine and useful thing. But do not confuse it with devotion to persons, this vain and useless bauble of weak-minded intellectuals.

With communist greetings,

J. Stalin
August 1930

---

The books, you know, read them.

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 18:11:58 2021 No.19462845 >>19461504 Just a coincidence the Cabal Jews control, media, currency, pharma, academia, government. Ignorance is bliss friend.

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 18:14:03 2021 No.19462857 File: 148 KB, 700x557, Stalin_birthday.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19462834 >Nooo Stalin didn't have a personality cult that's a lie!!!! >Meanwhile

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 18:17:49 2021 No.19462884 File: 378 KB, 2048x978, hibernian.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19462845 While it would be cool, they don't May I remind you of the current president's ethnicity

Anonymous Thu Nov 25 18:18:04 2021 No.19462886

>>19459702

Oooo ... Ooo..... I got a question!

Why is the right so blind to the extortion, exploitation and deception of capitalism, and why do they continue to call all reforms to capitalism "socialism" or "communism" as if to distract from any attempt at exposing the grift or suggesting reform by the false dichotomy that if you criticize capitalism you "must" be a socialist?

Ooo.. And if there is time:

Why does the right never actually answer the criticism of capitalism and instead only compare it to other forms of economics or governance?

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 18:44:53 2021 No.19463040 >>19462884 All his children who are married are married to jews.

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 18:46:26 2021 No.19463051 >>19463040 One literally could not reach harder to make a schizo connection

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 18:49:24 2021 No.19463081 >>19460652 This /thread

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 18:49:52 2021 No.19463087 >>19463051 You don't have to reach at all, they literally are you retarded ignorant boot licking commie nigger faggot.

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 18:51:05 2021 No.19463095 File: 576 KB, 1146x1080, toxo.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19460707 They literally have brain parasites, anon https://darkanchorite.substack.com/p/the-secret-epidemic

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 18:52:16 2021 No.19463105 >>19461072 >Do you mean the political wing that always split, criticized itself and has problems with constant infighting is somehow dogmatic? Constant infighting and criticism is a direct outcome of fixation over dogma, you pleb

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 18:53:24 2021 No.19463111 >>19461504 >blaming everything bad in the world on elite cabals that are evil for evil's sake That's literally Marxism though kek

Anonymous Thu Nov 25 18:55:35 2021 No.19463132
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>>19462886
>Oooo ... Ooo..... I got a question!
If you're gonna write like a retard and act like a pretentious midwit you're not getting an answer, troon

>Why is the right so blind to the extortion, exploitation and deception of capitalism
The Nazis have plenty of criticisms of capitalism if you want to talk to them

Anonymous Thu Nov 25 18:56:40 2021 No.19463136

>>19463087
>bro Biden is controlled by the Jews
<how do you know
>well you see, all his kids that are married are currently married to a Jew
You are winning gold at the mental gymnastics olympics lmao
>>19463095
>The main role of the superego is to suppress entirely those desires and wants of the id which are socially or personally immoral or regarded as "taboo". Taken to extremes, the function of one's superego can become progressively detrimental, as it attempts to force a person to act excessively moral or strive toward a state of moral perfection which is often well outside the realms of realistic attainment. An overbearing and excessive superego will also often magnify feelings of guilt.
Good thing I have never seen a rightist wax on about something about degeneracy in media and porn moral panics and the like otherwise that would imply they were mentally disabled

Anonymous Thu Nov 25 18:58:33 2021 No.19463146

>>19463136
>having moral principles is mental illness
I imagine it would look that way to a deviant transexual. But seriously, the article does say it shouldn't be a political issue and 50% of people are infected potentially. So there's probably right wingers with toxo psychosis out there too.

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 18:59:50 2021 No.19463153 >>19463136 DUDE DON'T INSULT THE JEWS! YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW TOUGH IT IS OWNING 50% OF US WEALTH DESPITE BEING 2% OF THE POPULATION! THEY'RE HECKING OPPRESSED!

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 18:59:53 2021 No.19463154 >>19463146 I definitely have toxoplasma gondii but I have basically no disgust response nor sense of morality. The only thing I get truly angry about is people arguing dishonestly because I'm very autistic

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 19:01:07 2021 No.19463160 >>19463154 What makes you think you have toxo?

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 19:02:25 2021 No.19463169 >>19463160 I lived with a cat whose litter I didnt clean very often and I really like cats in general

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 19:03:46 2021 No.19463182 >>19463132 >ITT Loser responds to rhetorical question as if it is a real question because loser.

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 19:07:46 2021 No.19463212 >>19463169 Oh dear. You need to get treated perhaps lol

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 19:08:49 2021 No.19463218 >>19463182 >Y-you're a loser! Oh ok!

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 19:13:06 2021 No.19463243 >>19461504 This

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 19:13:08 2021 No.19463245 >>19463182 legit leftist newfag redditor in the wild

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 19:14:07 2021 No.19463248 >>19463132 >The Nazis have plenty of criticisms of capitalism if you want to talk to them Such as?

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 19:16:05 2021 No.19463263 >>19461785 What are you gonna buy from the 50 cents you got for posting this, Chang?

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 19:16:31 2021 No.19463266 >>19463248 I'm not a Nazi but they always bang on about capitalism being evil. Were you under the assumption that Nazis were pro-capitalist?

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 19:23:03 2021 No.19463288 >>19463153 >hmm yes I will extrapolate from the tiny fraction of wealthy Jews and villainize the rest of them and also make this one of the core bases of my political ideology Take your meds

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 19:24:42 2021 No.19463296 >>19463288 >the tiny fraction of wealthy Jews It's disproportionately large and you know it

Anonymous Thu Nov 25 19:30:44 2021 No.19463320

>>19463296
Even still it's a tiny fraction of the whole Jewish population, it's nonsensical to target poor Jewish people when you are trying to dethrone those in power. What are the non-Jewish rich elites all great and free of corruption? I literally cannot for the life of me grasp why only Jews are targeted aside from "Well they're disproportiately rich" as if the ruling class were more proportional to the working class in ethnic composition that anything would be better

Anonymous Thu Nov 25 19:35:44 2021 No.19463342
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>>19463320
I didn't say they're disproportionately rich, I said they're disproportionately represented among elites, ultra rich and banking, to say nothing of being overrepresented amongst leftist intellectuals who condone pedophilia.

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 19:52:37 2021 No.19463430 >>19463342 >leftist intellectuals who condone pedophilia. meds Not sure where you are going with that image, guessing Schroedinger's Leftist is a Jew that seeks to bring about Jewish world domination and also rabidly anti-Semetic

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 19:56:55 2021 No.19463452 >>19460895 isnt zizek basically a straight up tanky who wants a full on nanny state?

Anonymous Thu Nov 25 20:06:49 2021 No.19463501

>>19463248
national socialism is overwhelming in favor of carefully regulated markets, pro worker regulations, benefits, social safety nets and other such government spending used to enable families, environmentalism and animal rights, and organizing laborers into guilds to lobby for their needs, and is heavily against commodification and consumerist culture, profiteering from producing harmful goods and services, usury, and currency that can be easily manipulated through inflation.

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 20:21:57 2021 No.19463579 >>19463501 >is overwhelming in favor of Pretty sure you mean was.

Anonymous Thu Nov 25 20:52:13 2021 No.19463690

communism, socialism capitalism and facism are four horrible words that need to be abolished. I mean linguistically horrible, the purpose of a word is to commmunicate an idea and these four words do the opposite, people have such different definitions of them and will constantly have screaming matches about why x is good/bad without clarifying what they are using x to reffer to. Sometimes they’ll even go full retard and actually argue about which definition is correct

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 25 22:37:29 2021 No.19464278 >>19459702 Andrle Fitzpatrick, Sheila Djilas Cliff for fucks sake Johnson-Forrest

Anonymous Thu Nov 25 23:06:14 2021 No.19464422

Communism has never been implemented through history. People usually bring the Soviet Union or Venezuela as examples of how bad communism is. But those countries are essentially capitalistic in nature, as wealth is in the hands of a few and the workers never owned the means of production.

What people call communism is just rampant capitalism. Bend over OP

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 00:24:59 2021 No.19464771 >>19459702 Which failures did they fail to address?

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 00:33:02 2021 No.19464802

>>19460964
Not this anon but adding on to this why did Marxism dominate so much of history and anthropology etc, when it seems clear to me humans do stupid and repulsive things because of superstition, religion, just plain stupidity etc, and not that every decision is just an economic consideration?

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 00:35:04 2021 No.19464809

>>19464802
To be clear I'm talking about marxist professors in the various disciplines trying to tie everything back to marxism.

It really does seem like a religion in which god is replaced with marx and the 10 commandments or whatever is replaced with marx's ideas

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 00:36:27 2021 No.19464816 >>19459702 guy on right liked the Man of steel

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 00:54:41 2021 No.19464889 Glownigger thread

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 01:05:23 2021 No.19464927 >>19459702 Speaking of which, what is Greenwald's major malfunction, he's becoming totally intellectually dishonest at this point?

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 01:32:50 2021 No.19465011 >>19462857 >meanwhile, in America https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxdt_f0hwUg Do you still do the pledge of allegiance every single morning while saluting the president photo?

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 01:36:53 2021 No.19465022 >>19459702 Dude thats what Zizek preaches all the time. He's one of few that doesn't want to ignore the failures

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 01:37:00 2021 No.19465023 >>19463095 >l-leftists have toxoplamosis! >>19463111 Meds, read books, etc >>19463132 I guess that doesn't apply to Munich putsch? kek

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 01:39:23 2021 No.19465029 >>19465011 >you... you don't approve of communist cults? NOOOOO you must be a braindead conservative You guys are cute lmao

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 01:40:13 2021 No.19465031 >>19459702 Theylll never ever just fucking admit that this shit can only be done nationally. That we close the borders and do all this shit in house m.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 01:43:40 2021 No.19465040 >>19460731 Sounds like someone read Mein Kampf

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 02:08:57 2021 No.19465131

>>19464802
>>19464809
It's merely an extension of British empiricism. The very same principle of Darwinian thought. That is, a base causal chain of being, typically manifested exclusively in and by the material world, driven by goalless and objective forces (objective as contradistinctive from the subjective). The goal of British thought is the dismantling of the subject. Subjects don't do anything except move by objective forces.
Nobody *said* this as some rationalized goal, but that's the cultural product. Which is why not all empiricists are atheists, or materialists. This is ultimately an ontological reductionism.
In the same way, Evolutionists in the English world can't conceive of Darwinian evolution being criticized except in the most slackjawed 6-day creationist level, and don't anticipate the unconsciously different metaphysical approach to evolution the continentals have, which is being rectified in epigenetics.
Marxism takes this principle and applies it to human affairs, as other British economists are wont to do. The *subjects* of humanity are merely manipulated by the material forces of economics. Yet, this is such a farcical reading of history. But it's no different than the rest of the reductive readings, ascribing the birth of religion to crop failures or such nonsense.

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 02:11:53 2021 No.19465146

>>19465131
I forgot to mention, the reason I think it dominated is the fact that Marxism is an extension of this British principle in academia. And often times, it's not necessarily from the mouth of Marx, but through similar kinds of dialectics. In fact, libertarian economics aren't too different from certain Marxist principles. It sees an intrinsic and absolute tension between the state and the private market, which is why they develop blinders like Marxists when the world doesn't function perfectly to their ideas. There's always further explanations for further development, because it's ultimately a reductionist model of humans.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 02:15:08 2021 No.19465153 >>19463105 lmao. this. small variations of the same thing.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 02:58:30 2021 No.19465289 >>19465131 >It's merely an extension of British empiricism. More like a rejection.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 03:38:08 2021 No.19465398 >>19464771 Khmer Rouge

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 03:57:35 2021 No.19465447

>>19465398
https://www.openculture.com/2013/07/slavoj-zizek-responds-to-noam-chomsky.html
http://www.critical-theory.com/chomsky-responds-zizek-criticms-sheer-fantasy/
http://www.critical-theory.com/zizek-responds-chomsky-again-some-bewildered-clarifications/
https://www.lacan.com/zizek-suicide.htm
https://zizek.uk/tag/khmer-rouge/
https://www.counterpunch.org/2021/09/10/noam-chomsky-and-the-khmer-rouge/
https://www.mekong.net/cambodia/chomsky.htm

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 06:24:56 2021 No.19465800 >>19465398 Khmer Rouge were bourgeois revolutionaries. see https://libriincogniti.wordpress.com/2021/02/25/kommunistisches-programm-national-revolution-and-downfall-of-cambodia/

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 09:53:10 2021 No.19466288

>>19460652
I like how you just completely ignore that Eurocommunism and western leftism in general solely exists as a reaction to purported Soviet and Chinese imperialism, that "Maoism" is a slur derived by western libcoms and that any western left-adjacent press absolutely balks at any attempt whatsoever to rehabilitate Stalin.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 09:57:16 2021 No.19466302 >>19460964 >nobles in France caring about trade routes? Considering that access to Levantine markets almost single-handedly drove modernization of Italian and French economy, I'd say it was probably on their mind.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 10:22:08 2021 No.19466402 >>19465398 The Khmer Rouge are probably the most addressed lmao The only person in academia I know of that actually defends them in any capacity is Noam Chomsky

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 10:54:00 2021 No.19466521 >>19466402 because chompsky is a liberal and liberalism supported them

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 10:54:44 2021 No.19466527

>>19465447
>https://www.openculture.com/2013/07/slavoj-zizek-responds-to-noam-chomsky.html
Zizek referencing Chomsky's failure to properly address the Khmer Rouge
>http://www.critical-theory.com/chomsky-responds-zizek-criticms-sheer-fantasy/
Literally just a brief retort to the above, wherein Chomsky falls back on his standard "America bad, East Timor!" bullshit.
>http://www.critical-theory.com/zizek-responds-chomsky-again-some-bewildered-clarifications/
Zizek calls out Chomsky for being disingenuous with the above.

So far the articles are all brief and refer to a single exchange. What's more, they're literally about Chomsky failing to adequately address the issue (i.e exactly what the thread said)

>https://www.lacan.com/zizek-suicide.htm
Zizek goes off on a brief tangent and compares the Khmer Rouge to a character in a movie (kek). He's not really addressing the reality of the regime and dressing up what's actually a pretty shallow take with obfuscating 'theory' bullshit. However, the article isn't specifically about Cambodia so that's fine in a sense; but the point being made that you're attempting to refute was such being addressed in a realistic/practical sense so it's a nonsequitur--you can't cite an article just because it mentions something.
>https://zizek.uk/tag/khmer-rouge/
Doesn't link to the article. However, it's just more stuff about the BRIEF exchange between Chomsky/Zizek yet again.
>https://www.counterpunch.org/2021/09/10/noam-chomsky-and-the-khmer-rouge/
Secondary source defending Chomsky over the same criticism Zizek made. Basically, just a longer version of "America bad too" (right down:
>However, because, like most Americans, Chomsky’s and Herman’s critics are indoctrinated with childish patriotic beliefs about America’s noble role in the world, they are unwilling to seriously consider the substantial evidence that Chomsky, Herman and other left-wing critics have gathered over the decades about the nefarious US role in the world.
So no, still not adequately addressing it and still representative of a failure. What's more--it's an obviously slide toward "America bad tho!" (Which itself is as "childish" as the author accuses the critics to be).
>https://www.mekong.net/cambodia/chomsky.htm
Very long article to read for a post here. However, after a skim, it looks like the author is going into detail criticising Chomsky for the failure Zizek pointed out.

In short, none of the articles prove anything. The majority of them are based on a 4 line exchange between Zizek/Chomsky wherein they were criticizing one another over methodology...everything you posted proves they were correct about one another and is beside the point that they both adequately treated the realities of the Khmer Rouge in a practical and/or honest way.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 10:55:46 2021 No.19466533 >>19466527 >Zizek goes off on a brief tangent and compares the Khmer Rouge to a character in a movie Classic Zizek move.

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 11:06:38 2021 No.19466591

>>19459702
Plenty of leftists address the faliure of authoritarian communist countries. Cold War Era thinkers were, however, bad at this due to getting stuck into a false dualism.

Socialism has been hugely successful. Every liberal democracy has made socialist policies foundational to their rule. No child labor, universal compulsory education, state sponsored higher ed, state run health care (yes, even the US, Medicaid and Medicare are fuck huge, dwarfing the entire defense budget), state run pension systems, progressive taxation, a focus on meritocracy, anti-monopoly laws, etc. It's also notable that faliures related to these or state capture that disrupts these are some of the primary complaints against individual governments and liberal democracy as a whole.

Socialism won in many ways. Some theorists try to hand wave this away as simply economic development, that advanced economies require these. This makes no sense historically though with how they were implemented. That socialist policies help boost standards of living and economic growth is what made them victorious in the end.

Obviously values currently considered conservative have also won in the marketplace of ideas and with a weight of evidence, namely free market capitalism as opposed to central planning and formal democracy being more democratic and higher functioning than authoritarian structures enforcing the "will of the people," ala Marxism. Also nationalism and group identity being essential to a nation, and indeed essential for support for socialist redistribution.

Purist laissez faire capitalism has been as discredited as bad forms of socialism, such as Soviet Marxism, but that doesn't stop it from coming back. The no true Scotsman argument is always the same too "noooo! That wasn't real free markets, government intervention did all the bad stuff." However, most thinkers avoid this extremes.

Chomsky is a particularly bad example of dogmatism going bad though.

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 11:11:55 2021 No.19466609

>>19459702
You have to be a Prauger U tier retard to think socialism always fails. Literally every first world country incorporated a shit ton of socialist reforms and many of the very richest (Nordics, Massachusetts, Euro microstates, etc.) have had explicit or defacto social democrat rules for the majority of the last 75 years.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 11:16:00 2021 No.19466622 >>19466591 >>19466609 the welfare state isn't a socialist policy. it's a way for capitalism to ensure the conditions of its survival. see http://ruthlesscriticism.com/welfare_state.htm

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 11:16:59 2021 No.19466626 >>19459702 Chomsky is a not real communism and Zizek is "yes, it failed but we can fix it this time because....."

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 11:20:43 2021 No.19466644

>>19459702
It's pretty damn obvious. Most of these people are not stalinists or maoists. When you debate them by invoking bad things the USSR or PRC did, you are doing the equivalent of an atheist thinking that he's owning a Lutheran by invoking examples of bad things the Vatican did.
Inapplicable and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what people believe.

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 11:45:28 2021 No.19466757

>>19466622
>Policies put forward by socialists, and generally enacted when explicitly socialist parties took power, and which were generally argued for on the basis of socialism, aren't actually socialist.

Ok, at that point, what policy is socialist? Basically all self identified socialist parties, thinkers, activists, and politicians throughout history weren't actually socialist unless they staked out maximalist authoritarian/Marxist positions? Come on, this is pure No True Scotsman. "If it was successful it wasn't socialism. If it is not successful it is socialism."

This is the same logic that makes Obama a socialist, but China, when it seems strong, a capitalist system.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 11:49:15 2021 No.19466776 >>19461504 You mean, like the capitalists... No wait, they're "scientifically" evil based muh dialectics and shit.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 11:51:56 2021 No.19466797 Man you guys really don't like commies huh, just picked up some Lenin to see what all the fuzz is about.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 11:57:06 2021 No.19466832 >>19464422 Of vourse it hasn't. It cannot be implemented. A stateless society is an oxymoron.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 12:01:47 2021 No.19466847 >>19466797 I have read some of Marx, Engels, and Mao, and it convinced me you guys are complete idiots.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 12:07:16 2021 No.19466873 File: 241 KB, 1000x1000, 1614932921939.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Where do I start with Chomsky? I'm not a raging leftist but I like the idea of communism. Is Manufacturing Consent a good start?

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 12:52:34 2021 No.19467099 >>19459702 they atcually do it all the time, you just need to get out of youyr right wing safe space and read more you'll find out left wing thinkers adressing mao, stalin, polpot etc all the time

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 13:18:38 2021 No.19467268 >>19465029 >communist cults Never happened >NOOOOO you must be a braindead conservative not an argument

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 13:28:01 2021 No.19467334 >>19460707 >A Muslim can be reasoned with This is bait.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 13:32:03 2021 No.19467357 File: 26 KB, 480x480, 1612838348236.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19466591 >Socialism has been hugely successful

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 13:32:10 2021 No.19467358 >>19466873 Pebble fuck just wants to kill someone

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 13:37:05 2021 No.19467394

>>19466873
It’s a good piece about propaganda. He’s not a bad intellectual and rightly calls out US imperialism, but is totally ignorant about partisan politics.
There’s even a book by Michael Parenti, Inventing Reality, you might like. He’s a tankie, but more consistent in opposition to the establishment.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 13:39:11 2021 No.19467407 >>19467357 It’s a broad term. State socialism “works” “Socialism for the rich” works And in theory, if the people took power themselves socialism could work even better. But you have no idea what I’m talking about, do you?

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 13:39:32 2021 No.19467408 >>19467358 Well the commies would be killing themselves in that scenario

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 13:41:23 2021 No.19467420

>>19466757
>Policies put forward by socialists
which socialists?
>and generally enacted when explicitly socialist parties took power
which socialist parties? they're also enacted when explicitly bourgeois parties take power. does that make them capitalist?
>and which were generally argued for on the basis of socialism
Marx argued on the basis of socialism for workers supporting capitalist transformation against feudalism. does that make capitalism socialist?
>Ok, at that point, what policy is socialist
in a broad sense: whatever strengthens the proletariat and weakens the bourgeoise at any given time. in a narrow sense: abolition of property.
>Basically all self identified socialist parties, thinkers, activists, and politicians throughout history weren't actually socialist unless they staked out maximalist authoritarian/Marxist positions?
those who advocated for the proletarian program were socialist and those who didn't -- weren't. and whether the latter mislabeled the demands of other classes that they supported as socialist or not doesn't matter as far as the content of those demands is concerned.
>Come on, this is pure No True Scotsman. "If it was successful it wasn't socialism. If it is not successful it is socialism."
I'm not saying anything close to "if it wasn't successful it wasn't socialist" though. I'm only saying "if it wasn't socialist, it wasn't socialist, whether it was mislabeled by socialist or not".
>This is the same logic that makes Obama a socialist, but China, when it seems strong, a capitalist system.
well, if I were really following that logic, then I would probably be one of those pathetic internet children who jerk off to China and pretend its socialist. the fact that I'm not only helps my case.

it should be abundantly clear to anyone who considers the matter for even a few minutes why the capitalist state needs to assert things like the welfare state, public education, public/subsidized healthcare, work day regulations, regime trade unions, anti-monopoly laws and so on against the interests of particular capitals for the purpose of the general survival of capital as a whole.

and that the wing of bourgeois politics that tends to be the one pushing for extending those general state measures against the other wing representing the position that they need to be more restrained -- that this wing likes to call itself social-democratic or socialist doesn't change the fact that of what it actually is. it doesn't change the fact that it doesn't represent the proletariat and the future society that will replace the current one, but represents a trend within the bourgeoisie regarding the question how much the state needs to intervene in order to provide optimal functioning for the capitalist mode of production and defend it from all the dangers.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 13:42:49 2021 No.19467429 >>19467394 Thanks After Chomsky and if i can find parentis book in my shithole. I have so much in my backlog

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 13:45:07 2021 No.19467442 >>19467408 I've got an idea. Hear me out. What if stone toss transitioned and lynched himself? It would be a win win (lose? but who genuinely enjoys his content?)

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 13:46:36 2021 No.19467454 >>19467429 Graeber is a fun read and has plenty of short works too.

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 13:49:44 2021 No.19467473

>>19467454
I'll consider debt too. The problem with these books here is that it's hard to find them used so i have to get them new... I usually just resort to pirating the audiobook for shorter works like 200pages and below.

Tldr poor and usually hunt down used books

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 13:50:58 2021 No.19467482 >>19467358 Who doesn't? Eat the rich and all that.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 13:53:39 2021 No.19467503 >>19467482 This i advocate for killing the rich actually and the homeless. This is probably why i like communism but not the idea of leftism in a democracy. People who can't do actual labor and useless eaters/homeless deserve death

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 13:55:14 2021 No.19467514 >>19467503 An upstanding utilitarian you are

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 13:58:35 2021 No.19467536

>>19466873
Just watch the documentary they made for Manufacturing Consent and go no further (his corpus is a can of worms and there's a lot you should be familiar with before checking him out). Chomsky has an incredible level of bias that he never addresses and he's clever enough to get away with it if you don't read him critically and/or haven't put in the work to understand the historical currents and political goings on while he was developing his ideas.

Zbigniew Brzezinski is probably a better entry into this type of stuff. He's more accessible and easier to take apart critically, given how massive some of the failures he took part in can now be recognized with modern hindsight, and he puts forward the standard rationale for the mechanics of what he was involved in. Basically, he'll give you a semi-critical narrative for geopolitical behaviour with a left-leaning (but still pro-US) bias...he's a good companion to Chomsky.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 14:02:20 2021 No.19467548 >>19467536 Thank you

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 14:08:20 2021 No.19467572 File: 192 KB, 362x507, 1595705801587.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19465131 >which is being rectified in epigenetics.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 14:10:02 2021 No.19467583 I heard a rumor that Chomsky or his Brazilian wife used their influence to stop a scientist from studying a tribe that completely disproved Chomskyian linguistics How true is that?

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 14:27:30 2021 No.19467657

>>19464802
Economic considerations condition the kinds of superstructural behavior that are possible in a given society. Were the crusades religiously motivated? absolutely. But they and even the form of religion were premised by the economic base of european feudalism. Marxism is not economic determinism. The superstructure is reflexively conditioning and has a degree of independence from the base. But its limits are ultimately determined by the base, for as engels said "mankind must first of all eat, drink, have shelter and clothing, before it can pursue politics, science, art, religion, etc.; that therefore the production of the immediate material means, and consequently the degree of economic development attained by a given people or during a given epoch, form the foundation upon which the state institutions, the legal conceptions, art, and even the ideas on religion, of the people concerned have been evolved, and in the light of which they must, therefore, be explained, instead of vice versa, as had hitherto been the case."

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 15:03:48 2021 No.19467840
File: 63 KB, 1084x184, Untitled.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>19467548
Np. The full doc is on YouTube for free (see below) and actually had a big impact on me when I first saw it in high school. For Brzezinski, you can start in a few different ways. If you want to be able to read Chomsky critically you'd go all the way back to the stuff he wrote up until the mid-80s (you can figure out relevance just by looking at the titles). However, I'd start with something he wrote after 9/11 (to get a sense of contemporary stuff first) and work backwards if you still have interest in the prior era and where Chomsky is coming from. (See pic; Blue is if you want to work backwards and don't care about modern stuff, Red is entry into contemporary geopolitics and you can decide to go back to get better context for Chomsky or just go forward if you're interested in modern relevance and not something more like a historiographical critical reading ability).

I'll restate that I'm not hyping Brzezinski because he's necessarily right. He's just a great entry-level thinker because he presents the (supposed) rationale behind US geopolitical behaviour and it's a solid benchmark to weigh criticisms, like those put forward by Chomsky, by. Basically, he'll give you the standard narrative and he isn't a hardcore chest-thumping hawk.

https://youtu.be/EuwmWnphqII

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 15:05:52 2021 No.19467847

>>19467407
>State socialism “works”
No it doesn't. Everywhere you have government interfere, be it education, healthcare, pensions or anything else it ends up being a massive failure.

>“Socialism for the rich” works
No it doesn't. It's short term success for long term failure.

Leftism simply does not work.

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 15:07:21 2021 No.19467854

>>19466527
>failure to properly address
>failing to adequately address
>they both adequately treated the realities of the Khmer Rouge in a practical and/or honest way.
Sounds like you just disagree with Chomsky. I do too. What would constitute "adequate" response in your opinion?

I only posted them because they were in OP pic >>19465398 asked. They obviously have addressed it but don't agree with each other.

>>19466527
>dressing up what's actually a pretty shallow take with obfuscating 'theory' bullshit.
Hes talking about how authoritarianism is good actually. Again you can disagree, but that is different from him not responding.

Most people don't consider the Khmer Rouge communist and a lot of leftists believe that it was propped up by the United States as a proxy against Vietnam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_United_States_support_for_the_Khmer_Rouge
https://books.google.com/books/about/Cambodia_Pol_Pot_and_the_United_States.html?id=n1D7l8qUpN8C

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 15:08:41 2021 No.19467867

>>19467583
Rumour. Chomsky is the most anti-censorship man in academia today with any real notoriety to the point where he gets called an anti-Semite even though he himself is Jewish.
>>19467847
>Everywhere you have government interfere, be it education, healthcare, pensions or anything else it ends up being a massive failure.
This is objectively false and I hope the communists are paying you ancap retards for making them look good.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 15:12:16 2021 No.19467893 >>19466644 >When you debate them by invoking bad things the USSR or PRC did, you are doing the equivalent of an atheist thinking that he's owning a Lutheran by invoking examples of bad things the Vatican did. very good point

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 15:12:58 2021 No.19467899

>>19459702
You know what, (You) call people leftoids or rightards and automatically assume you know where they stand on everything. You automatically impose beliefs onto these people, but it's wrong. What you assume about left and right is different to what others assume about left and right, thus petty squabbles develop over mere semantics. I haven't read any slave boy pozcuck, but gnome Chompers I have read, and he discusses in great depth how the US enforces democracy in 3rd world countries, which leads to a failure in the socialist parties (i.e. the US uses intimidation, war, and terrorism to install right wing governments to prevent any widespread global socialist movement). Don't reply saying he's blaming someone else for socialism's failure; the arguments in manufacturing consent are airtight, the only criticism of the book is that it's so terribly boring, few socialists even bother to read it, let alone less politicially engaged members of society.

>>19466288
20 buzzwords, 0 content

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 15:13:17 2021 No.19467901

>>19467847
>Everywhere you have government interfere, be it education, healthcare, pensions or anything else it ends up being a massive failure.
That is called regulatory capture and doesn't happen when you live in a democracy where the government represents the people.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 15:15:21 2021 No.19467908 >>19467899 >20 buzzwords, 0 content Not an argument Not even him btw But I just happen to be reading some texts by Pertini and Berlinguer right now, literally supporting NATO

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 15:23:14 2021 No.19467950

>>19467908
It is an argument, he's not saying anything of value. He's bringing up all these terms and political leanings as though there's a common consensus to their meaning. But there's not, I've learnt that terms like "Eurocommunism" are vague and nebulous terms. These labels have ruined political discourse. What matters more is where people align with policies, and what their ideal state is.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 15:49:19 2021 No.19468098 >>19467950 >I've learnt that terms like "Eurocommunism" are vague and nebulous terms Just say that you don't know what it is.

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 15:55:34 2021 No.19468129

>>19467854
They didn't address it though and that was the point--that's why I went through them one-by-one. As I said above, briefly referencing something doesn't stand as treating it as a subject in-and-of-itself. You posted 7 articles and 4 of them were based around the same (short) exchange Zizek/Chomsky didn't even make directly to one another--and they weren't even about the Khmer Rouge but rather criticizing each other's general way in going about their analysis. Of those 3 remaining; 1 was Zizek going off on a brief aside using the Khmer Rouge as an example, 1 was an attempt to justify Chomsky's standard slide defense, and the other (I only skimmed) just unpacked the inadequacies of Chomsky. Basically, 4 of the articles were about side remarks Zizek/Chomsky made about one another, 2 were specifically about what Zizek had referred to in his criticism, and 1 was just a digression that happened to mention the Khmer Rouge. It has nothing to do with whether or not I agree or disagree with Chomsky. The point is whether or not either Zizek or Chomsky treat that specific issue directly and it just so happens that it's a common exemplar used by people to point out Chomsky's bias and disingenuousness when it comes to how he goes about his analysis in general.
> Again you can disagree, but that is different from him not responding.
Again, it's not about whether I agree or disagree--it's actually an example of what Chomsky criticizes about Zizek in the other articles you posted (i.e. digressing into 'theory' and cherrypicking exemplars instead of working up from the details and outcomes). I also pointed out that it's a brief tangent about a wider concept--itself unrelated to the specifics of the Khmer Rouge as a constrained actor in a given historical context.

As far as not considering them communist--basically just this >>19460932. As far as US involvement--that's just one detail of many and that specific externality in a wider geopolitical context and on the level of international relationships doesn't discredit the idea they operated according to their professed ideology and doesn't undermine, let alone build-up, an alternative hypothesis for the commonalities seen between them and other leftwing authoritarian regimes.

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 16:06:26 2021 No.19468188

>>19468098
no one does, that's the thing. After a baseline definition, the notion is vague and indefinite. Two people labelled as "eurocommunists" could have alternate views on a particular matter, because "eurocommunist" is a buzzword. It's a means-nothing word. These political labels are as pernicious as they are useless, because they plague every fucking debate and cause all sorts of miacommunications. You're just so heavily brainwashed to the point you still think "left" and "right" are adequate descriptors.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 16:11:12 2021 No.19468216 >>19468188 >You're just so heavily brainwashed to the point you still think "left" and "right" are adequate descriptors. ??? >if two people disagree on ONE single thing, it means that words have NO meaning AT ALL Go out more.

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 16:11:59 2021 No.19468226

>>19468129
What would constitute "adequate" response in your opinion?

>commonalities seen between them and other leftwing authoritarian regimes.
Like what?

>As far as US involvement--that's just one detail
Many leftists claim that the US supported Pol Pot because they knew he was ideologically opposed to communism and would create trouble for communists, so to them its directly related.

>>19460932
This is a critique of libertarian-communism and anarcho-communism. Marxist-Leninists would tell you that the USSR was communist and that China, Laos, Vietnam, Cuba and the DPRK are communist. This really only applies to a minority of disconnected ideologies that don't have political power or control. Most communists are Marxist-Leninist not anarchists, but anarchists are more represented in english speaking media and their rhetoric is often co-opted by liberals.

Zizek specifically says that communism is ideological because it is not possible to not have an ideology. He says that people are culturally embedded in the world and ideology is part of experience.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 16:47:37 2021 No.19468420 >>19466873 chomsky isn't a communist

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 16:49:44 2021 No.19468428

>>19468226
>Marxist-Leninists would tell you that the USSR was communist and that China, Laos, Vietnam, Cuba and the DPRK are communist.
no they wouldn't, why do you think it's called SOCIALISM with chinese characteristics? literally no one has even the most rudimentary understanding in marxism, i've even seen this in people who proclaim to be marxists

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 17:01:33 2021 No.19468472

>>19468428
>no they wouldn't, why do you think it's called SOCIALISM with chinese characteristics?
That is a semantic difference, the words are interchangeable for them. The CCP etc calls themselves communist, they don't say that China "has never tried real communism", that is an anarchist critique of their position. Besides that, what is even your point?

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 17:13:21 2021 No.19468515

>>19468226
>What would constitute "adequate" response in your opinion?
The conversation is in regard to why the above was not adequate and I stated why with reference to the same ideas presented in that brief exchange wherein Chomsky/Zizek criticized one another. Overcoming those criticisms is a step towards an adequate treatment of the issue at hand.
>Like what?
Atrocities and outcomes stemming from ideologically motivated policy.
>Many leftists claim that the US supported Pol Pot because they knew he was ideologically opposed to communism and would create trouble for communists, so to them its directly related.
No, it's a slide that equates to "that isn't real communism because the US was involved" [note that this ignores contextual pragmatism/realpolitik in order to service what is basically a No True Scotsman fallacy].
>This is a critique of libertarian-communism and anarcho-communism.
No, it's a critique of ideology in general using Marxism/Communism as an example. The idea is that criticisms of the ideological core are deflected by contextualizing them in terms of that core via the use of satellite qualifiers. So, instead of the Khmer Rouge being an exemplar of what's wrong with Marxist ideology and the atrocities committed by the regime serving as relevant examples--that idea isn't allowed to meet the core and is turned away by qualifying details according to the ideology and thereby negating them without actually addressing them. (The last part of it regards how ideologues argue--the schema is internalized to the point where attacks on and defence of the (ideological) worldview become personal and are therefore emotive to the given ideologue...that isn't as relevant here because neither of us is being reactive and we've managed to have a conversation so far, which is rare).

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 17:13:59 2021 No.19468517 >>19468472 >he CCP etc calls themselves communist so in 2016 the U.S. ceased to be a democracy and instead became a republic, but last year it ceased being a republic and became a democracy once again?

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 17:14:28 2021 No.19468519 >>19468226 FYI this is someone else >>19468428 This is me >>19468515

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 17:14:42 2021 No.19468521 >>19467867 >This is objectively false Time to come back to reality. >>19467901 >doesn't happen when you live in a democracy where the government represents the people. Jesus christ

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 17:14:51 2021 No.19468522 >>19468226 I never really studied Juche but I don't consider it to be marxist-leninist/communist/socialist or whatever

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 17:15:20 2021 No.19468524 >>19467908 NATO? is that some new commie coalition or something?

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 17:16:27 2021 No.19468529 >>19468524 I don't even understand what this bait is supposed to convey.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 17:24:34 2021 No.19468566 >>19468529 i dont understand what nato has to do with socialism or communism

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 17:28:24 2021 No.19468594 >>19460629 fpbp

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 17:30:22 2021 No.19468604 File: 1.97 MB, 917x1386, ManufacturingConsent.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >None of the rightoids in this thread have read pic

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 17:33:01 2021 No.19468624

>>19468515
>that idea isn't allowed to meet the core and is turned away by qualifying details according to the ideology and thereby negating them without actually addressing them.
Yeah I think that is because most communists from all sides(except for literally just Chomsky alone, and only for a brief period) disavow Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge. Usually they consider arbitrarily killing intellectuals substantially different from what happened in other countries. Chomsky also didn't support them he just thought the reports were fake news.

>Atrocities and outcomes stemming from ideologically motivated policy.
I would start here if you want a good faith answer, otherwise people will think you are straw manning them. Which atrocities? I think most examples have 3 responses;

1) They deserved it.
2) It didn't happen.
3) It happened and it was bad.

You will also encounter comparisons to atrocities and outcomes stemming from ideologically motivated policy committed by capitalist countries. A lot of communists will tell you that the UK and US have committed many more and worse atrocities. Marxist-Leninists generally believe that fascism is a direct outgrowth of capitalist imperialism. Many will tell you that Japan and Germany in WWII were practicing ideologically motivated capitalism and that the USSR stopped them alone while being completely abandoned by the British because Churchill was using Germany to crush the Soviets and maintain dominance over the Suez and east India as part of a contiguous imperial project.

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 17:34:32 2021 No.19468636

>>19467854
>Sounds like you just disagree with Chomsky. I do too. What would constitute "adequate" response in your opinion?

Has Chomsky ever said his words in Distortions at Fourth Hand or After the Cataclysm were wrong? When they clearly were. No he said something like "not even a comma is out of place". He said the Cambodian refugees were at best unreliable and more likely lying because Chomsky didn't want to believe the Khmer Rouge were committing atrocities and instead wanted to believe it was another great communist government.

>Hildebrand and Porter's refusal to consider refugee testimonies ensured that their book would provide a markedly different assessment than that of Barron and Paul or Ponchaud. Which assessment was correct? Of the three books under review, Chomsky and Herman claimed that the book based largely on reports from Khmer Rouge and communist sources, a book which presented "a very favorable picture" of the Khmer Rouge regime, was "a carefully documented study." The other two books relied heavily on those troublesome refugee reports, which are by nature characterized by "extreme unreliability." Those books were "third-rate propaganda," or marred by "an anti-Communist bias;" they were "careless," and "fast and loose" with facts.

He never once admitted he was wrong about this.

>There is something vaguely unsettling in Chomsky's words, even as he acknowledges the horrible toll of the Cambodian communists: There was an atrocity, people were outraged, so on and so forth, blah blah blah. The reaction is Chomsky's primary concern; genocide itself is a lesser point.

Has Chomsky ever apologized for taking the stance that while the genocide was bad, what was really important to him was how it was reported on by US media? Not that 25% of Cambodia's population was killed?

>Most people don't consider the Khmer Rouge communist and a lot of leftists believe that it was propped up by the United States as a proxy against Vietnam.

And a lot of leftists are retarded and need to blame the US for everything because they can't handle communists being bad. The US supported the Lon Nol government the Khmer Rouge opposed, and it was countries like China giving weapons and supplies to the Khmer Rouge and North Vietnam supported the Khmer Rouge during their war against the Lon Nol government.

>Indeed, that was the reason North Vietnam supported the Khmer Rouge during their fight against the Lon Nol government, in the hope that the Kampuchean communists would adopt a pro-Vietnamese line upon their victory in the same way as the Pathet Lao had done.

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 17:35:06 2021 No.19468643

>>19468566
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_NATO

>The history of NATO started when British diplomacy set the stage to contain the Soviet Union and to stop the expansion of communism in Europe. The United Kingdom and France signed, in 1947, the Treaty of Dunkirk, a defensive pact, which was expanded in 1948 with the Treaty of Brussels to add the three Benelux countries (Belgium, the Netherlands, and Luxembourg) and committed them to collective defense against an armed attack for fifty years

>The Treaty of Brussels was a mutual defense treaty against the Soviet threat at the start of the Cold War. It was signed on 17 March 1948 by Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, France, and the United Kingdom and was the precursor to NATO. The Soviet threat became immediate with the Berlin Blockade in 1948, leading to the creation of a multinational defense organization, the Western Union Defence Organisation, in September 1948.[2] However, the parties were too weak militarily to counter the Soviet Armed Forces. In addition, the communist 1948 Czechoslovak coup d'état had overthrown a democratic government, and British Foreign Minister Ernest Bevin reiterated that the best way to prevent another Czechoslovakia was to evolve a joint Western military strategy. He got a receptive hearing in the United States, especially with the American anxiety over Italy and the Italian Communist Party.[3]

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 17:37:08 2021 No.19468653

>>19468636
>And a lot of leftists are retarded and need to blame the US for everything because they can't handle communists being bad.
So find out which kind of leftist they are and critique them directly so they can say "im a liberal" or "kulaks deserved it". Whats the big deal.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 17:45:23 2021 No.19468699 >>19467899 How did the the US prevent Venezuela from becoming a successful socialist country?

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 17:46:00 2021 No.19468704 >>19468566 Holy fucking Jesus.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 17:51:52 2021 No.19468735 >>19468604 >is factually wrong and doesn't even know how newsrooms operate and just relies on a "model" created by two obviously biased people who wonder in amazement that the "model" they created gives them the answers they wanted already

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 17:54:01 2021 No.19468744

>>19468636
>The US supported the Lon Nol government the Khmer Rouge opposed, and it was countries like China giving weapons and supplies to the Khmer Rouge
The US backed the Khmer Rouge with China to contain Vietnam after Lon Nol lost. The realpolitik is going over your head.

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 17:59:36 2021 No.19468784

>>19468699

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcos_P%C3%A9rez_Jim%C3%A9nez
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_of_Venezuela
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_crisis_of_1895
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_crisis_of_1902%E2%80%931903
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Venezuela_(1948%E2%80%931958)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1945_Venezuelan_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Venezuelan_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1958_Venezuelan_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Venezuelan_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_attempts#February_1992_coup_attempt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Venezuelan_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_attempts#November_1992_coup_attempt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Venezuelan_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_attempt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Venezuelan_constitutional_crisis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Venezuelan_protests
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States%E2%80%93Venezuela_relations

https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/battle-over-1-bln-gold-uk-backs-guaido-venezuela-president-2021-07-19/
https://www.reuters.com/article/venezuela-koch/world-bank-to-hear-koch-arbitration-against-venezuela-idUSN1E76I27U20110720
https://www.state.gov/venezuela-related-sanctions/
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/do-the-kochs-have-their-own-spy-network
https://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2019/03/27/greg-palast-koch-brothers-behind-us-coup-in-venezuela/
https://canadiandimension.com/articles/view/canada-vs.-venezuela-have-the-koch-brothers-captured-canadas-left
https://truthout.org/articles/big-oil-big-ketchup-and-the-assassination-of-hugo-chavez/
https://mupj.org/2019/08/16/kochland-author-christopher-leonard-on-the-koch-brothers-political-empire-npr/
https://ips-dc.org/oil_and_venezuelas_failed_coup/

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 18:03:24 2021 No.19468804

Operation Gladio is the codename for clandestine "stay-behind" operations of armed resistance that were organized by the Western Union, and subsequently by NATO and the CIA, in collaboration with several European intelligence agencies. The operation was designed for a potential Warsaw Pact invasion and conquest of Europe. Although Gladio specifically refers to the Italian branch of the NATO stay-behind organizations, "Operation Gladio" is used as an informal name for all of them. Stay-behind operations were prepared in many NATO member countries, and some neutral countries.

During the Cold War, some anti-communist armed groups engaged in the harassment of left-wing parties, torture, terrorist attacks, and massacres in countries such as Italy. The role of the CIA and other intelligence organisations in Gladio - the extent of its activities during the Cold War era and any responsibility for terrorist attacks perpetrated in Italy during the "Years of Lead".

In 1990, the European Parliament adopted a resolution alleging that military secret services in certain member states were involved in serious terrorism and crime, whether or not their superiors were aware. The resolution also urged investigations by the judiciaries of the countries in which those armies operated, so that their modus operandi and actual extension would be revealed. To date, only Italy, Switzerland and Belgium have had parliamentary inquiries into the matter.

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 18:03:44 2021 No.19468806

>>19468744
The US backed the Khmer Rouge to oppose the Vietnam placed government after Vietnam invaded. It was just UN posturing to oppose Vietnam and the Soviet Union.

The US did not support or help the Khmer Rouge gain power and conduct the genocide. That was China and Vietnam.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 18:05:45 2021 No.19468820 >>19468784 What does any of this have to do with Chavez being a socialist retard running his own country into the ground?

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 18:07:53 2021 No.19468830

>>19468820
In the real world things that happen are an interaction between physical objects and don't just happen because you think about them really hard. There is a cause and effect relationship going from past to present, and you can look at history to see how things developed into what they are now.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 18:10:32 2021 No.19468844 >>19468830 How did the US make Chavez fire 18000 oil workers for striking?

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 18:11:34 2021 No.19468851

>>19468806
"You should also tell the Cambodians that we will be friends with them. They are murderous thugs, but we won’t let that stand in our way. We are prepared to improve relations with them." - Henry Kissinger

The US and China have been colluding longer than you know.
There's also this: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cambodia-rouge-idUSTRE5351VF20090406

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 18:21:16 2021 No.19468909

>>19468851
There is no evidence the US supported Pol Pot or the Khmer Rouge's rise to power and helped it commit genocide. Some quotes don't mean anything.

China didn't need US support or approval to help the Khmer Rouge, they did that because Mao wanted communism in another country. Vietnam supported the Khmer Rouge because of communist sympathies as well.

>https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cambodia-rouge-idUSTRE5351VF20090406
What does this prove? A disposed head of state telling people to join the Khmer Rouge means the Khmer Rouge had to commit genocide?

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 18:25:31 2021 No.19468935 >>19468820 Did you read all those links in 6 minutes? Impressive

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 18:26:27 2021 No.19468940 >>19468935 Yes

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 18:28:51 2021 No.19468957

>>19468909
>secretary of state explicitly indicating his support
>"Some quotes don't mean anything." ???
>Khmer Rouge higher-up outlining how the US helped drive support for the Khmer Rouge itself
>"What does this prove?"
You are about as dumb as the typical tankie but now the denial perspective is inverted.

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 18:35:54 2021 No.19469010

>>19468957
>secretary of state explicitly indicating his support
Which nothing came of and just says "we will improve relations" anyway. So yes quotes don't mean anything without actual material support which never happened.

>Khmer Rouge higher-up outlining how the US helped drive support for the Khmer Rouge itself
No he claimed that the previous head of state telling people to support the Khmer Rouge made all the difference in them coming to power. Which isn't a proven fact and irrelevant to how the Khmer Rouge conducted themselves. If the Khmer Rouge came to power and was a good government in conduct, not a single leftist would say the US is responsible for that and would instead say the US was not at all responsible.

It is only when something goes bad does blame always go back to the US.

Leftists can never accept that other lefties do bad things themselves. It is always the fault of the US in some way.

You have no evidence the US supported the Khmer Rouge in gaining power or committing genocide so you have to pull out some irrelevant quotes.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 18:36:13 2021 No.19469012 >>19468909 >There is no evidence >don't care. CIA did it. Your argument would be a thousand times stronger if you critiqued the Rojava or Chiapas or Cuba or USSR instead of trying to convince people they support something they don't support.

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 18:46:30 2021 No.19469055

>>19469010
>So yes quotes don't mean anything without actual material support which never happened.
They could leave them alone while killing all their neighbors. You don't have to directly support somebody to aid them in their objectives, there are a hundred ways to do it and the special forces are very good at not leaving evidence. Every time they get caught they clean up that sloppy method so it is untraceable and they stopped keeping paper trails after MKULTRA got exposed, which was two years before Pol Pot took power.

There's also no direct evidence that Obama created ISIS, he 'only' killed every strong man in the region to open up a vacuum and the ensuing chaos was an unforeseeable accident.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 18:48:59 2021 No.19469070 >>19469055 You are a retard

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 18:52:40 2021 No.19469084

>>19469012
Lefties supported it at the time like the one guy who visited and never came back

And by saying it was just all the fault of the US anyway is just a way of coping with what occurred and denial that it was a fault of a strain of leftism and and means leftists won't address the failures of a strain of leftism. Like the OP mentioned

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 18:53:42 2021 No.19469088 >>19469012 Different anon here I didn't really follow the discussion, can you expand on this part >if you critiqued the Rojava or Chiapas or Cuba or USSR Thanks

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 18:55:14 2021 No.19469097 >>19463452 He's being sarcastic to prove a point

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 18:59:25 2021 No.19469115

>>19469088
Anarchists, libertarian communists, and democratic socialists generally like the first two, and maybe Cuba and say 'that isn't real communism' about things they don't like. If you critique Rojava or Chiapas you are critiquing things they support instead of things that are universally condemned. Marxist-Leninists support the USSR, if you critique the USSR you are critiquing things they support instead of things that they do not support. None of these people support Khmer Rouge.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 19:05:10 2021 No.19469135 >>19467583 it's true

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 19:05:44 2021 No.19469140

>>19469084

>Lefties supported it at the time like the one guy who visited and never came back
Probably got eaten by cannibals lol. I've never heard of "lefties' supporting it, unless you think liberals like Kissinger are "lefties".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Cambodia
In December 1958 Ngo Dinh Nhu – Ngo Dinh Diem's younger brother and chief adviser – broached the idea of orchestrating a coup to overthrow Cambodian leader Norodom Sihanouk.[2] Nhu contacted Dap Chhuon, Sihanouk's Interior Minister, who was known for his pro-American sympathies, to prepare for the coup against his boss.[3] Chhuon received covert financial and military assistance from Thailand, South Vietnam, and the CIA.[4]

1969 President Richard Nixon asked Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs Henry A. Kissinger to explore two potential CIA actions in Cambodia: Creating covert paramilitary harassing operations directed against North Vietnamese Regular Forces in the sanctuary areas just over the Cambodian border. CIA capability for eliminating or reducing the arms traffic through Cambodia to communist forces in South Vietnam.

After discussion in the 303 Committee, which was then the approval group for US covert actions, the committee endorsed the first, although the CIA recommended against it for two reasons. They believed it would take effort away from operations in South Vietnam, and also would have questionable effectiveness but high cost against the large North Vietnamese forces in Cambodia.

Further, they pointed out that if recent U.S. diplomatic approaches to Cambodia result in the formal resumption of full diplomatic relations, CIA will gain an operating base for improved intelligence collection and covert action.

A February 19 memorandum from Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs Henry Kissinger to President Richard Nixon proposed a bombing attack by B-52 aircraft against what was believed to be COSVN in Cambodia. In this discussion, specific CIA analysis was not discussed, but Kissinger indicated that he believed the target information to be correct:

1970 Prince Norodom Sihanouk was ousted by Lon Nol in March 1970. Sihanouk claimed in his 1973 book that the CIA engineered the coup.[14] While this allegation has never been substantiated, it may well be the case that the highest levels of the U.S. government were surprised by the coup: by 2013, there was a developing academic consensus that U.S. military intelligence was aware of and actively encouraged the plot to depose Sihanouk.[15]

1972 Senator Clifford P. Case sponsored a law effective December 1972 cutting off funds for CIA and private military company operations in Cambodia (see the Case–Church Amendment).[16]

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 19:06:34 2021 No.19469146

>>19469055
>There's also no direct evidence that Obama created ISIS

---
3/26/03 3:00PM
This war will not put an end to anti-Americanism; it will fan the flames of hatred even higher. It will not end the threat of weapons of mass destruction; it will make possible their further proliferation. And it will not lay the groundwork for the flourishing of democracy throughout the Mideast; it will harden the resolve of Arab states to drive out all Western (i.e. U.S.) influence.

If you thought Osama bin Laden was bad, just wait until the countless children who become orphaned by U.S. bombs in the coming weeks are all grown up. Do you think they will forget what country dropped the bombs that killed their parents? In 10 or 15 years, we will look back fondly on the days when there were only a few thousand Middle Easterners dedicated to destroying the U.S. and willing to die for the fundamentalist cause. From this war, a million bin Ladens will bloom.

https://www.theonion.com/this-war-will-destabilize-the-entire-mideast-region-and-1819594296

---

ISIS Stands for 'Israel Secret Intelligence Service

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4920h6

---

ISIS APOLOGY TO ISRAEL
Former Israeli defense minister Moshe Ya’alon reveals that the Islamic State (Daesh) apologized to Israel for opening fire on an Israeli unit in the Syrian Golan Heights in November.

https://www.humanrightscolumbia.org/political-apologies/isis-apology-israel

---

“Let's remember here... the people we are fighting today we funded them twenty years ago... and we did it because we were locked in a struggle with the Soviet Union.

“They invaded Afghanistan... and we did not want to see them control Central Asia and we went to work... and it was President Reagan in partnership with Congress led by Democrats who said you know what it sounds like a pretty good idea... let's deal with the ISI and the Pakistan military and let's go recruit these mujahideen.

“And great, let them come from Saudi Arabia and other countries, importing their Wahabi brand of Islam so that we can go beat the Soviet Union.

“And guess what ... they (Soviets) retreated ... they lost billions of dollars and it led to the collapse of the Soviet Union.

“So there is a very strong argument which is... it wasn't a bad investment in terms of Soviet Union but let's be careful with what we sow... because we will harvest.

“So we then left Pakistan ... We said okay fine you deal with the Stingers that we left all over your country... you deal with the mines that are along the border and... by the way we don't want to have anything to do with you... in fact we're sanctioning you... So we stopped dealing with the Pakistani military and with ISI and we now are making up for a lot of lost time.”

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2cx3kd

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 19:08:26 2021 No.19469153

>>19469010
>Which nothing came of
Power vacuum says otherwise. Don't play coy.
>No he claimed that the previous head of state telling people to support the Khmer Rouge made all the difference in them coming to power.
Same result. Don't care if you shot someone in the head to simply kill them or fix their brain tumour.
>You have no evidence the US supported the Khmer Rouge
I have it, you just deny it. I can't help you. You are a bizarre tankie.

This is the most bland explanation you will get: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_United_States_support_for_the_Khmer_Rouge

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 19:08:45 2021 No.19469156

>>19469070

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_United_States_support_for_the_Khmer_Rouge#Allegations_of_U.S._military_support
According to Tom Fawthrop, U.S. support for the Khmer Rouge guerrillas in the 1980s was "pivotal" to keeping the organization alive, and was in part motivated by revenge over the U.S. defeat during the Vietnam War.[26] A WikiLeaks dump of 500,000 U.S. diplomatic cables from 1978 shows that the administration of President Jimmy Carter was torn between revulsion at the atrocities of the Khmer Rouge and concern with the possibility of growing Vietnamese influence should the Khmer Rouge collapse.[27]

According to Michael Haas, despite publicly condemning the Khmer Rouge, the U.S. offered military support to the organization and was instrumental in preventing UN recognition of the Vietnam-aligned government.[28] Haas argued that the U.S. and China responded to efforts from the Association of South East Asian Nations (ASEAN) for disarming the Khmer Rouge by ensuring the Khmer Rouge stayed armed, and that U.S. efforts for merging the Khmer Rouge with allied factions resulted in the formation of the CGDK. After 1982, the U.S. increased its annual covert aid to the Cambodian resistance from $4 million to $10 million.[29] Haas's account is corroborated by Singaporean diplomat Bilahari Kausikan, who recalled: "ASEAN wanted elections but the U.S. supported the return of a genocidal regime. Did any of you imagine that the U.S. once had in effect supported genocide?" Kausikan described the disagreement between the U.S. and ASEAN over the Khmer Rouge as reaching the threshold that the U.S. threatened Singapore with "blood on the floor".[30]

Although U.S. policy was to provide support to "15,000 ineffective 'noncommunist' rebel fighters", Joel Brinkley stated that "charges made the rounds that some of the American aid, $215 million so far, was finding its way to the Khmer Rouge." A subsequent investigation led by Thomas Fingar of the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR) "found some leakage—including sharing of ammunition, joint defense of a bridge, and using one truck to transport both 'noncommunist' and Khmer Rouge fighters to a fight."

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 19:09:07 2021 No.19469157 >>19469115 They're all equally retarded and annoying. These people are parasitical sects who amplified by social media. Jacques Camatte was right when he called leftism a racket.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 19:11:28 2021 No.19469172 >>19469146 Of course. There is "no evidence" according to nitpicking um actually snopes mongers that want to quibble over semantics instead of make a point. Exactly like this guy is doing over Cambodia.

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 19:14:56 2021 No.19469185

>>19469157
>Capitalists, Ancaps, Voluntarists, Identarians, Libertarians, Conservatives, Nationalists, Fascists, Imperialists, Monarchists and Nazis are all equally retarded and annoying. These people are parasitical sects who amplified by social media. Smedly Butler was right when he called war a racket.

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 19:23:02 2021 No.19469219

>>19469140
Fucking retard
>James Alexander Malcolm Caldwell (27 September 1931 – 23 December 1978)[1] was a British academic and a prolific Marxist writer. He was a consistent critic of American foreign policy, a campaigner for Asian communist and socialist movements and a supporter of the Khmer Rouge. Caldwell was murdered under mysterious circumstances a few hours after meeting Pol Pot in Cambodia.[2]

Everything else is irrelevant to the Khmer Rouge

>>19469146
This is deranged schizo shit

>>19469153
What? That quote is from 1975 after the Khmer Rouge already gained power you fucking retard
>Same result. Don't care if you shot someone in the head to simply kill them or fix their brain tumour.
No it is still a claim that isn't proven and irrelevant anyway. The Khmer Rouge wanted control of the country one way or another.
>I have it, you just deny it. I can't help you. You are a bizarre tankie.
You haven't provided any evidence retard. You gave an irrelevant quote and a mass murder trying to pass off blame. And I'm not a fucking tankie

>This is the most bland explanation you will get: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_United_States_support_for_the_Khmer_Rouge

Which even says

>By contrast, Nate Thayer recounted that "The United States has scrupulously avoided any direct involvement in aiding the Khmer Rouge", instead providing non-lethal aid to non-communist Khmer People's National Liberation Front (KPNLF) and Armee Nationale Sihanouk (ANS) insurgents, which rarely cooperated with the Khmer Rouge on the battlefield, despite being coalition partners, and which fought with the Khmer Rouge dozens of times prior to 1987. According to Thayer, "In months spent in areas controlled by the three resistance groups and during scores of encounters with the Khmer Rouge ... I never once encountered aid given to the [non-communist resistance] in use by or in possession of the Khmer Rouge."[31]

>>19469156
Retard

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 19:25:05 2021 No.19469225 File: 630 KB, 1080x592, file.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19469219

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 19:26:01 2021 No.19469231

>>19469115
Ok, I think I kinda got your point.
I have to say that in my country there are a couple relatively """major""" communists movements of which
1)one supports Rojava, Cuba, (partial support for Vietnam and Venezuela), historical role of USSR,
2)the other one full support for USSR (both Stalin and post-Stalin), Cuba, I think ambiguous statements on Rojava/Assad, Venezuela, probably DPRK.
It's complex, I can't say I have a full opinion on every single topic

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 19:29:14 2021 No.19469247

>>19469219
>This is deranged schizo shit
I posted
One satyrical article which turned out to be reality
One translation which may or may not be a coincidence (I forgot https://www.gov.il/en/departments/units/mossad Mossad – Israeli Secret Intelligence Service)
One official statement
Another official statement

Where exactly is the "deranged schizo shit"? feel free to point out.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 19:34:37 2021 No.19469269 >>19469219 >Which even says Its obviously disputed, and have you never heard of compartmentalization? Lets say the Khmer Rouge was communist. Now what? No other country did what they did. Why are you trying so hard to die on this hill?

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 19:39:43 2021 No.19469300 File: 24 KB, 700x420, 2000.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19467268 What do you call this other than a religious relic, the preserved corpse of the saint?

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 19:51:04 2021 No.19469360 >>19469219 Fuck off, tankie. The US helped commit genocide in Cambodia. Hate it when you retards deny atrocities. Your system does not work.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 19:53:50 2021 No.19469370 >>19469300 a science experiment https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/lenin-s-body-improves-with-age1/ https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/how-the-quest-to-preserve-lenins-body-helps-the-living simple as

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 19:56:03 2021 No.19469388

>>19469300
I personally don't like the idea of preserving an embalmed body and putting it on show forever, but what can I do about it?
7 years before Lenin's death, the Orthodox Church had tremendous power on society. Likbez achieved extraordinary results in teaching people how to read, but that does not automatically erases centuries of superstitions.

At this point I think it should just stay there for historical reasons.

When ANY president dies, there are public funerals, attended by both people and foreign dignitaries. 100 years ago there weren't many private jets, so they embalmed him to make him last longer.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 19:57:05 2021 No.19469393 File: 56 KB, 564x842, u0bz6eqcm1n21.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19469300 >>19469388 I forgot Lenin lived. Lenin is alive. Lenin will live.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 19:57:06 2021 No.19469394 File: 83 KB, 940x529, pickledmao.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19469370 >>19469388 And this one? We can keep doing this, communists have a habit of embalming their leaders.

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 20:03:06 2021 No.19469414

>>19469360
Fuck off retard I'm not a tankie
>The US helped commit genocide in Cambodia.
Okay schizo
>>19469269
The Khmer Rouge was communist you fucking retard I never said they weren't. What hill do you think I'm dying on?
>Its obviously disputed
And I prefer the source that agrees with me and the other sources are irrelevant in the Khmer Rouge coming to power and their genocide anyways

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 20:04:32 2021 No.19469423 >>19469394 >And this one? Already answered

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 20:05:52 2021 No.19469436 File: 2.03 MB, 304x226, 1629513509277.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19469414 >I prefer the source that agrees with me https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 20:06:24 2021 No.19469439 >>19469423 It's okay anon. Just realize communism which honors its prophets is a religion and roll with it.

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 20:11:03 2021 No.19469458

>>19469414
>What hill do you think I'm dying on?
It seems like Khmer Rouge being communist is what your argument revolves around, which isn't really settled. I wonder why do you insist on using Cambodia as your example and not China or Russia? So far you don't want to answer, so I assume you are trying to make a point.

So if Khmer Rouge was communist what does that mean? What is it proof of?

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 20:11:07 2021 No.19469459 >>19468604 Literally the only book he wrote that rightwing people like, retard.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 20:12:58 2021 No.19469468 >>19469439 This (again): >>19460932

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 20:14:07 2021 No.19469479
File: 169 KB, 1072x708, 1615035735341.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>19469370
This is such a clean BTFO that the only possible response to it was repeating the premise of the gotcha question bahahaha.
>>19469393
>heeey maaaaan.... isn't like.... propaganda like.... religion, maaaaan

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 20:16:04 2021 No.19469488
File: 547 KB, 250x250, 1632605754000.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>19469436
Yes
>>19469458
Yes the Khmer Rouge was communist. Mao's communist China supported it. Communist North Vietnam supported it.

It was communist.

What example? What the fuck are you talking about? I'm saying it is an example of leftist failure leftists don't want address(the entire question in the OP) because they either don't want to admit it was communist, or it was just the fault of the US anyways, ignoring its support from communist countries.

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 20:19:06 2021 No.19469498

>>19469488
I'm not arguing with you about whether it was communist I'm trying to figure out what the fuck you want to say. I can guess but I'm not here to put words in peoples mouths. My guess is that you are saying Khmer Rouge is bad and so communism is bad but you haven't made that argument you have just kept repeating that they are communist. Maybe you mean that communism is bad and so them being communist means bad? Fuck if I know.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 20:24:39 2021 No.19469515 >>19469488 >Yes the Khmer Rouge was communist. ayo hol' up, dropping some new deets: "We are not communists … we are revolutionaries [who do not] belong to the commonly accepted grouping of communist Indochina."

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 20:25:32 2021 No.19469520

>>19469498
I'm trying to figure out what the fuck your point is if it isn't related to anything in the fucking thread or what the OP is about.

The OP
>Why are leftist intellectuals almost never able to address the failures of past socialist/communist systems? Are there any who actually talk about them and offer realistic alternatives?
Someone brought up the Khmer Rouge as an example.

People disagreed that the Khmer Rouge should be an example. I disagreed with that disagreement because leftists either don't want to admit it is communist or blame its existence on the US, neither of which disproves the OP and the person who brought up the Khmer Rouge.

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 20:27:31 2021 No.19469535

>>19469439
>i-its a religion!
The way in which a country no longer in existence decided how to honor its founder's death 100 years ago has no relevance on my political beliefs.

tl:dr
Cope.

On a side note: read books

Conscientious practice of self-criticism is still another hallmark
distinguishing our Party from all other political parties. As we say, dust will
accumulate if a room is not cleaned regularly, our faces will get dirty if they
are not washed regularly. Our comrades' minds and our Party's work may
also collect dust, and also need sweeping and washing. The proverb "Running
water is never stale and a door-hinge is never worm-eaten" means that
constant motion prevents the inroads of germs and other organisms. To check
up regularly on our work and in the process develop a democratic style of
work, to fear neither criticism nor self-criticism, and to apply such good
popular Chinese maxims as "Say all you know and say it without reserve",
"Blame not the speaker but be warned by his words" and "Correct mistakes if
you have committed them and guard against them if you have not" - this is
the only effective way to prevent all kinds of political dust and germs from
contaminating the minds of our comrades and the body of our Party.

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » Fri Nov 26 20:29:31 2021 No.19469545 >>19469414 >nooo america dindu nuffin graduate high school

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 20:30:18 2021 No.19469549 File: 416 KB, 1080x1350, 0_672477199892212_7328297750770250019_n (3).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19469479 ???

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 20:31:23 2021 No.19469555

>>19469535
>The way in which a country no longer in existence decided how to honor its founder's death 100 years ago has no relevance on my political beliefs.
It clearly does lmao. You can keep finding new ways to cope around the fact your ideology is a cult, but sooner or later the contradictions will get to you. When it does, remember me.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 20:33:04 2021 No.19469561 >>19469545 You first

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 20:33:47 2021 No.19469562 >>19469555 no actually YOUR ideology is a cult

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 20:34:18 2021 No.19469564 >>19469545 It's pretty sad that you impersonate a retard in order to get attention.

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 20:39:37 2021 No.19469587

>>19469555
>i-its yo ydiologee!
I'm not a soviet citizen. I'm not cuban. I'm not vietnamese. etc.
>You can keep finding new ways to cope around the fact your ideology is a cult,
No, it's called studying history. Try it.
>A-AMERICA ITS A KOOLT!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxdt_f0hwUg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance

Read the fucking books, or else just shut the fuck up. No grudge.

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » Fri Nov 26 20:40:43 2021 No.19469589 >>19469564 its pretty sad that the US government helped commit genocide in cambodia

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 20:42:17 2021 No.19469595 >>19469488 >Yes the Khmer Rouge was communist. Mao's communist China supported it. Communist North Vietnam supported it. 2/3. Sounds like success.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 20:44:46 2021 No.19469608 File: 276 KB, 565x500, 75207.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19469520

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 20:54:12 2021 No.19469646 >>19469608 >retarded meme WHOA...

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 21:01:54 2021 No.19469668 File: 233 KB, 1080x1080, 606b3ca23e52d.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19469646 cope

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 21:02:00 2021 No.19469669 Redpill me on Pol Pot I'm a fascist but I will support anything that resulted in r*ch people being annihilated

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 21:03:04 2021 No.19469672 File: 34 KB, 300x175, 51717861756.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19469669 https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/ho-chi-minh/index.htm

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 21:04:19 2021 No.19469675 >>19469672 Please god tell me you have more of these images

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 21:08:39 2021 No.19469690

>>19467840
Wow it's almost 3hours
Thanks again

I checked if I can get Brzezinski's book locally and used and yeah I was right I won't find his work here. I'll probably listen to the grand chessboard first since it's only 256 pages worth so i don't mind listening to it.

Thanks for the recs anon i will listen to this first actually before getting into Chomsky's earlier works which is actually overwhelming after checking his bibliography.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 21:15:08 2021 No.19469710 >>19469668 ok this one is funny

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 21:16:14 2021 No.19469717 >>19469690 >Chomsky's earlier works which is actually overwhelming after checking his bibliography. He has unironically sold the exact same book 50 times just to buy boats pick one at random and you have read them all

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 21:30:20 2021 No.19469770

>>19469690
Np. You can probably find a bunch of Brzezinski's books on libgen.is btw. With Chomsky it's pretty much what this >>19469717 guy said...one you read 1 or 2 of his books it's pretty easy to predict his take on shit--just look at the titles and see if there's one that stands out (you can also just watch videos of him speaking or easily find print interviews he's done over the years).

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 21:35:27 2021 No.19469782

>>19469690
P.S. The Grand Chessboard is pre-9/11 (written pretty much at the peak of the roaring 90s) so it might be a bit dated. Just keep that in mind and don't be afraid to drop it for something more relevant to how things stand now (it's still useful in the sense that it shows where the US thought it was going/as a snapshot of that period).

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 21:51:23 2021 No.19469836
File: 733 KB, 1345x484, 109538123.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>19460707
>Leftists are more fanatic and dogmatic than Muslims, A Muslim can be reasoned with, but a Leftist is blind to logic or critical thinking. If I had a button that would replace every commie with a Muslim I would press it in a heartbeat.
>
>Honestly desu I am past being tired when it comes to leftists. There are some leftist anons here who post the most stupid drivel, get called out on it, and end up getting utterly BTFO and proving themselves to be hypocrites in the process. The next day, they'll be back to posting long essays about their garbage thinking, like nothing ever happened. I don't know whether to laugh or just sit back in awe at this behavior.

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 21:52:31 2021 No.19469843

>>19469782
Okay. That's not so bad and would give me more idea about 90s America in a different perspective. I'll keep that in mind if it starts going above my head then i might go on to the modern stuff.

>>19469770
>>19469717

I'm interested mostly on his work on anarchism and manufacturing consent. I want to see the left side of things of anarchism mostly.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 21:54:47 2021 No.19469853 >>19468604 >"Btw boys and girls, make SURE you vote for Hillary Clinton" lmao the absolute fucking state of leftists THE ABSOLUTE FUCKING STATE kek

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 21:57:04 2021 No.19469858 >>19469836 wtf I love Gandhi now!

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 22:15:42 2021 No.19469907

>>19464802
I think some modern marxists use the advent of global capital as sort of a dividing line in history where the logics of capital take over. Like Eric Wolf said humanity became an integrated system, you couldn’t just write off the actions of isolated tribes as wholly isolated ritualized behaviors anymore, interactions with European traders and their goods irrevocably changed those groups. Like the introduction of western goods to potlatch societies overthrowing the “cosmological generation” logics of those groups. The traditional chiefs were now able to be competed with by randos who just went to the Europeans to trade, now they had the same amount of stuff to destroy and show off their wealth. The old understanding of status and power was undone and replaced with one where labor was traded for goods with currency.
I dunno if any of that was coherent but yeah.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 22:16:45 2021 No.19469913 >>19469836 That's not from Gandhi. That exact quote is in Mein Kampf Vienna (I think) chapter or whatever chapter he started watching the parliament. I just finished reading it and I can't wait to get my hands on the Thomas Dalton translation.

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 22:22:33 2021 No.19469930

>>19469843
His media criticism was based for the time but he's since completely sold out any principles he had (or at least pretended to have) in order to toe the line for the DNC. (He even went back on the stances he took regarding free speech, straight up advocating speech laws, and expressed his regret for writing that essay for Faurisson).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faurisson_affair

That's the thing with Chomsky though...he's always been disingenuous when it comes to presenting a balanced picture of political machinations and history. You can learn a lot from reading his work but you really have to keep in mind that a clear line of bias runs through it and all of the details are selected to conform to the idea of "America bad."

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 22:39:34 2021 No.19469986 >>19469853 I would voted Trump rather than Hilary. Ole' Chompy has gotten a little senile towards the end of his life but his earlier work was exceptionally good. So, have you read MC or not?

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 22:45:46 2021 No.19470001

>>19469853
>>19469986
This is exactly how I decided to read the guy's work to give him a chance because I started watching the left leaning anti establishments like Taibbi, Dore, Greenwald, etc.

Dore's video on that Chomsky saying "starve the unvaccinated" and him calling chomsky just spouting democrat party talking points the last decade or so.

I'm unvaccinated and I'm never gonna get vaxxed so I just want to see where Chomsky is coming from.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 22:46:55 2021 No.19470002 >>19469853 Is this really surprising from a man who defended the Khmer Rouge?

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 22:49:19 2021 No.19470010 >>19470002 >>19469608

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 23:01:31 2021 No.19470058

>>19460707
>>19460731
>>19460843
>>19460895
>>19460964
>>19461244
>>19461656
>>19461870

> >>19460666 #
Leftists are more fanatic and dogmatic than Muslims, A Muslim can be reasoned with, but a Leftist is blind to logic or critical thinking. If I had a button that would replace every commie with a Muslim I would press it in a heartbeat.

>Honestly desu I am past being tired when it comes to leftists. There are some leftist anons here who post the most stupid drivel, get called out on it, and end up getting utterly BTFO and proving themselves to be hypocrites in the process. The next day, they'll be back to posting long essays about their garbage thinking, like nothing ever happened. I don't know whether to laugh or just sit back in awe at this behavior

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 23:02:05 2021 No.19470061 File: 266 KB, 700x482, zyegv4guq2q51.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19470010

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 23:02:45 2021 No.19470063

>>19470002
>Leftists are more fanatic and dogmatic than Muslims, A Muslim can be reasoned with, but a Leftist is blind to logic or critical thinking. If I had a button that would replace every commie with a Muslim I would press it in a heartbeat.

>Honestly desu I am past being tired when it comes to leftists. There are some leftist anons here who post the most stupid drivel, get called out on it, and end up getting utterly BTFO and proving themselves to be hypocrites in the process. The next day, they'll be back to posting long essays about their garbage thinking, like nothing ever happened. I don't know whether to laugh or just sit back in awe at this behavior

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 23:10:57 2021 No.19470105 File: 224 KB, 808x701, 12985.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19469853 me Chomsky me big intellectual drop me name me not mainstream me not establishment me tenured me revolution me smart drop me name you smart

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 23:13:17 2021 No.19470115
File: 363 KB, 924x1184, chumpsky.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>19459702
>Why are leftist intellectuals almost never able to address the failures of past socialist/communist systems? Are there any who actually talk about them and offer realistic alternatives?
There's no such thing as a leftist intellectual.
You're confusing career academics and pop-lecturers who "think" with people who actually do things and influence the world through intelligence.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 23:15:05 2021 No.19470123 >>19459702 >If I haven't heard about it, it doesn't exist. It's literally talked about all the fucking time.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 23:16:17 2021 No.19470129 >>19470115 Kissinger was the devil in human form. We'd have peace in the middle east today if not for him.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 26 23:33:08 2021 No.19470178 >>19470129 We have peace basically everywhere except for some smaller balkanized countries and the Middle east. it's the price to pay.

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 23:52:51 2021 No.19470251

>>19470001
Yeah Dore is pretty good. I would recommend Breaking Points but they have decided to ride the fence on the vaccine which is disappointing but overall it's not a bad show. Chompsky made his name in academic linguistics but waded into the public sphere with his opposing war and exposing propaganda around US meddling in other countries.

Anonymous Fri Nov 26 23:55:46 2021 No.19470264

>>19470251
yeah I listen to saagar and krystal too
that's how i found out about manufacturing consent since it's on the shelf on the right of krystal lol

I wonder what changed his attitude towards politics. I assumed he never voted but he said not to vote for trump and vote for hillary...(paraphrasing) which is kinda weird.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 27 00:14:12 2021 No.19470356 >>19470264 I don't have a good answer for that. I would have thought he'd be better than to buy wholesale into the red/blue dichotomy.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 27 00:16:39 2021 No.19470367 >>19470356 >I would have thought he'd be better than to buy wholesale into the red/blue dichotomy. Yeahh exactly that. he got the TDS i guess.

Anonymous Sat Nov 27 00:43:47 2021 No.19470452

>>19465023
>Meds, read books, etc
I can tell you haven't read any Marx. If you had you wouldn't have disagreed with him. How the fuck can you be a Marxist without reading any Marx? I'm sad for you honestly, it's a shame the public school system failed you this terribly

Anonymous Sat Nov 27 01:03:00 2021 No.19470519

>>19470356
>>19470367
He was always a disingenuous piece of shit. It's honestly more surprising to me that you'd be surprised by the fact he'd start toeing the line when the ideology he favors began rising to prominence. He even sold out the based shit he said/wrote about freedom of speech in order to make a public case that government-mandated censorship is net beneficial (alongside his ever-present trademark of failing to address the most glaring counterpoint to the idea being presented because it's in favor of his alignment and against the other side). He's always been a biased asshole--he's just too old to hide it as well by burying it in esoteric factoids.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 27 01:04:30 2021 No.19470524 >>19470519 >net beneficial Sorry, I shouldn't have said "net." He didn't even have the honesty to put in that qualifier. Beneficial--full stop.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 27 01:14:27 2021 No.19470557 >>19470519 Sounds a lot more like you are the biased asshole

Anonymous Sat Nov 27 01:24:09 2021 No.19470582

>>19470557
Sounds like you're full of cope because you can't handle the colour show that is your ideological hero. Not my fault you couldn't see through his bullshit and you should honestly reflect on how mentally weak it is that you're unable to reappraise your adherence to him.

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/lit/ - Literature