/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.19396863]

Why did Nietzsche believe he became senile?

[Anonymous No.19397071]

He had turned into a righttards, it's the only reasonable conclusion

[Anonymous No.19397075]

Parsifal BTFO Nietzsche so bad he became insane to cope

[Anonymous No.19397090]

>>19396863
Gee, I wonder.

[Anonymous No.19397099]

>>19397090

[Anonymous No.19397123]

Tragedy is when a man realises what he always was.
Even as the spectre of death approached him, the great poet could not be the philosopher he had hoped.

[Anonymous No.19397448]

>>19397099
Did he ever explain how the eucharist is going to racially purify people?

[Anonymous No.19397533]

>>19397071
>righttards
I find it amusing how people that claim themselves to be from the right, left, or just a centrist, whatever those words mean in a given moment, believe that they can reduce a whole set of political ideas to coordinates.
Nietzsche himself shared a lot of "right-wing" beliefs.
>>19397099
Wagner was a cultural and religious antisemite, not a racial one.
And Parsifal was about cultural regeneration i.e Consecration of the Stage, Not the purification of Blood.

At least try to cite Mime as an antisemitic caricature.

[Anonymous No.19397541]

>>19397533
the jews are superior culturally and religiously
wagner was a coping, seething incel who needed to touch grass, dilate and so on

[Anonymous No.19397553]

>tfw negative power inversions correlated inductive reiteration into postmodern hegelian prostration

[Anonymous No.19397574]

>>19397541
>the jews are superior culturally and religiously
They aren't, You can make an argument about their Mythology but on all the other fronts, They are pretty mediocre when compared with the Germans.
>wagner was a coping
Feel free to name any Jewish artist that is renowned as Wagner.
>seething incel who needed to touch grass, dilate and so on
Wagner was a notorious womanizer that has cucked von Bulow

[Anonymous No.19397576]

>>19397533
>Wagner was a cultural and religious antisemite, not a racial one.
He clearly was. Just read Judaism in Music. How he thought the Jews as a race should be dealt with is difficult to say, but there is the following quote from Cosima's diaries:

>If I wrote about the Jews again, I would say that there is nothing to be held against them, only that they came to us Germans too soon and we were not stable enough to absorb this element.

[Anonymous No.19397594]

>>19397576
>He clearly was
Not really, The word "Race" before the 19th Century only had a National meaning, Only in the 20th Century did it start to have a genetic one.
Spengler had the same issue, Luckily he was alive to explain it in a paper.
>>If I wrote about the Jews again, I would say that there is nothing to be held against them, only that they came to us Germans too soon and we were not stable enough to absorb this element.
This quote doesn't point to a Racial assumption of his antisemitism.

[Anonymous No.19397635]

>>19397594
>Not really, The word "Race" before the 19th Century only had a National meaning,
This is ridiculous, both Gobineau and Schopenhauer defined a white/Caucasian race. What do you think the debate on slavery was even about? What do you think Wagner's criticism of Mendelssohn is?

>This quote doesn't point to a Racial assumption of his antisemitism.
It points to Wagner desiring the Jewish race to have been diluted beyond recognition into the German. There is innumerable evidence to show Wagner retained the racial antisemitism of Judaism in Music into his last years, such as this also from Cosima's diaries:

>While we are talking about Rubinstein's piano-playing, Richard says how curious it is that Jews seem neither to recognize nor to play any themes.

[Anonymous No.19397702]

>>19397635
>This is ridiculous
Feel free to contest the evidence
>While Spengler emerged as a leading proponent of the so-called ‘Conservative Revolution’ in Weimar Germany, itself a reaction to this chaos, his continuation of the German Idealist legacy that placed spirit above matter in the formation of the Volk put him in opposition to many emerging elements of the ‘Right’ in Germany before the war, and those on much of the ‘Right’ outside of Germany after the war, over the question of ‘race’. Ironically, the Hitlerites owed more to English Darwinian and various Malthusian conceptions than to German Idealism, although the two mixed uneasily in the Third Reich. While the Left regard Spengler as a ‘racist’ philosopher, racial theorists conversely saw his rejection of biological racial taxonomy as having something of the ‘Left’ about it.
https://arktos.com/2018/11/28/spengler-epigenetics-and-the-idea-of-race/
Also, I have forgotten about some nuances in the German-English translations, "Volk" means People or Nation, Not race, even if some translators post 1945 are adamant in translating it in that way.
>This is ridiculous, both Gobineau
Late 19th Century and Gobineau considered the Jews together with the Arabs to be part of the Semitic race.
>Although cited by groups such as the Nazi Party, the text implicitly criticizes antisemitism and describes Jews in positive terms, the Jews being seen as a superbly forged race of "ancient Greek-like strength" of cohesion. Implicitly, the folk of Judah merely represented a wandering, semi-austral variation of Ur-Aryan blood-stock. Gobineau stated, "Jews... became a people that succeeded in everything it undertook, a free, strong, and intelligent people, and one which, before it lost, sword in hand, the name of an independent nation, had given as many learned men to the world as it had merchants." Philo-Judaic sentiment was intermixed with ethnological theories concerning the primally Indo-Iranian/Indo-Aryan archeogenetic matrix whence sprang the Jews. In these lines of speculative anthropology, the Jews were anciently (supposedly) primordially interpreted as of atypical Indo-European ethnicity: Judaic racial typology emerged from Iranid–Nordid founders, the details considered inessential, possessors of compatibly "white" "Aryan" blood being the main point.

[Anonymous No.19397708]

>>19397702
>The latter-day "Hamiticized" Jewish folk came into existence from non-Afro-Asiatic Hurrian (or Horite), Jebusite, Amorite or early-Hittite, Mittani-affiliated racial nuclei, the "consensus science" of the time asserted. The blatantly, ironically almost aggressive pro-Jewish attitude of Gobineau, akin to Nietzsche in sheer admiration and lionization of the Jews as one of the "highest races", proved ideologically vertiginous to the Nazi propagandists and Procrustean thinkers—here Gobineau unmistakably contradicted perhaps the main pillar of Nazi political ideology, which has been described as the schizoid, neo-Gnostic dualism of "Jewish demonology", painfully obvious as reflective of low-grade moral-intellectual barbarism. Incompatible with Nazi ideology, the Count's fervent Judaic positivity and total dearth of antisemitism the Nazis could only attempt to ignore or minimize away in the silence of hypocrisy
That's far from antisemitism as it gets.
>Schopenhauer defined a white/Caucasian race, What do you think the debate on slavery was even about?
People have been aware of aesthetic differences, But Genetic ones, Darwinian ones i.e Survival of the Fittest and Dysgenics only become mainstream in the late 1800s.

[Anonymous No.19397749]

>>19397708
>It points to Wagner desiring the Jewish race to have been diluted beyond recognition into the German. There is innumerable evidence to show Wagner retained the racial antisemitism of Judaism in Music into his last years, such as this also from Cosima's diaries:
Dude
>If I wrote about the Jews again, I would say that there is nothing to be held against them,
He's speaking of Jews retaining their culture and refusing to assimilate to the German one, Jewish and Polish cultural suppression was in full swing in Germany at that period.
> only that they came to us Germans too soon, we were not stable enough to absorb this element.
He's claiming that German culture was not cohesive sufficient to assimilate other ones, Judging from the fact that Germans in the Late 19th Century are still trying to define their Nationality after their unification, He does have a point, I can also find I quote from Napoleon in the same manner.
Even if we assume his racial antisemitism, where did he get that from? From Gobineau? The Jew lover?
>>While we are talking about Rubinstein's piano-playing, Richard says how curious it is that Jews seem neither to recognize nor to play any themes.
Only seeing Chauvinism in that or are you gonna deny the fact that people usually treat national stereotypes as if they are Genetic ones? All Americans are fat and loud, Germans are humorless and rigid people and Italians are flamboyants.

[Anonymous No.19397759]

>>19397749
>find I quote
Find a
And the quote in question
>He stated, "I will never accept any proposals that will obligate the Jewish people to leave France, because to me the Jews are the same as any other citizen in our country. It takes weakness to chase them out of the country, but it takes strength to assimilate them"

[Anonymous No.19397802]

>>19397702
>>19397708
Gobineau's opinion of Jews is of no relevance, since he certainly postulated the superiority of whites over 'lower races' and that is what had influence on Wagner. I don't know how you could think racial ideas were only aesthetic until after Darwin, it needs no specific individuals or quotes from the time to prove wrong, nor does posting individuals on one particular side of this old debate (Spengler) prove at all that it did not exist.

>The highest civilization and culture, apart from the ancient Hindus and Egyptians, are found exclusively among the white races; and even with many dark peoples, the ruling caste or race is fairer in colour than the rest and has, therefore, evidently immigrated, for example, the Brahmans, the Incas, and the rulers of the South Sea Islands. All this is due to the fact that necessity is the mother of invention because those tribes that emigrated early to the north, and there gradually became white, had to develop all their intellectual powers and invent and perfect all the arts in their struggle with need, want and misery, which in their many forms were brought about by the climate. This they had to do in order to make up for the parsimony of nature and out of it all came their high civilization.
- Schopenhauer

>He has shewn us that a Jew may have the amplest store of specific talents, may own the finest and most varied culture, the highest and the tenderest sense of honour—yet without all these pre-eminences helping him, were it but one single time, to call forth in us that deep, that heart-searching effect which we await from Art because we know her capable thereof, because we have felt it many a time and oft, so soon as once a hero of our art has, so to say, but opened his mouth to speak to us. To professional critics, who haply have reached a like consciousness with ourselves hereon, it may be left to prove by specimens of Mendelssohn's art-products our statement of this indubitably certain thing; by way of illustrating our general impression, let us here be content with the fact that, in hearing a tone-piece of this composer's, we have only been able to feel engrossed where nothing beyond our more or less amusement-craving Phantasy was roused through the presentment, stringing-together and entanglement of the most elegant, the smoothest and most polished figures—as in the kaleidoscope's changeful play of form and colour—but never where those figures were meant to take the shape of deep and stalwart feelings of the human heart.

Even Bryan Magee, who claims Wagner's racial antisemitism was true for the culture at the time, but not racially, does not deny that Wagner's antisemitism WAS a racial antisemitism.

[Anonymous No.19397807]

>>19397702
>>19397708
Gobineau's opinion of Jews is of no relevance, since he certainly postulated the superiority of whites over 'lower races' and that is what had influence on Wagner. I don't know how you could think racial ideas were only aesthetic until after Darwin, it needs no specific individuals or quotes from the time to prove wrong, nor does posting individuals on one particular side of this old debate (Spengler) prove at all that it did not exist. It's convenient for you to ONLY focus on Gobineau's view of Jews, and not race altogether.

>The highest civilization and culture, apart from the ancient Hindus and Egyptians, are found exclusively among the white races; and even with many dark peoples, the ruling caste or race is fairer in colour than the rest and has, therefore, evidently immigrated, for example, the Brahmans, the Incas, and the rulers of the South Sea Islands. All this is due to the fact that necessity is the mother of invention because those tribes that emigrated early to the north, and there gradually became white, had to develop all their intellectual powers and invent and perfect all the arts in their struggle with need, want and misery, which in their many forms were brought about by the climate. This they had to do in order to make up for the parsimony of nature and out of it all came their high civilization.
- Schopenhauer

>He has shewn us that a Jew may have the amplest store of specific talents, may own the finest and most varied culture, the highest and the tenderest sense of honour—yet without all these pre-eminences helping him, were it but one single time, to call forth in us that deep, that heart-searching effect which we await from Art because we know her capable thereof, because we have felt it many a time and oft, so soon as once a hero of our art has, so to say, but opened his mouth to speak to us. To professional critics, who haply have reached a like consciousness with ourselves hereon, it may be left to prove by specimens of Mendelssohn's art-products our statement of this indubitably certain thing; by way of illustrating our general impression, let us here be content with the fact that, in hearing a tone-piece of this composer's, we have only been able to feel engrossed where nothing beyond our more or less amusement-craving Phantasy was roused through the presentment, stringing-together and entanglement of the most elegant, the smoothest and most polished figures—as in the kaleidoscope's changeful play of form and colour—but never where those figures were meant to take the shape of deep and stalwart feelings of the human heart.
- Wagner

Even Bryan Magee, who claims Wagner's racial antisemitism was true for the culture at the time, but not racially, does not deny that Wagner's antisemitism WAS a racial antisemitism.

[Anonymous No.19397825]

>When he evaluated a statement made by an African, Kant dismissed the statement with the comment: "this fellow was quite black from head to foot, a clear proof that what he said was stupid."
- statement on black culture according to anon

[Anonymous No.19397892]

>>19397807
>Gobineau's opinion of Jews is of no relevance, since he certainly postulated the superiority of whites over 'lower races' and that is what had influence on Wagner
We're debating about if Wagner's antisemitism was racially based.
>. I don't know how you could think racial ideas were only aesthetic until after Darwin
The Concept of Survival of the fittest only started after the Origin of Species. Eugenics, and Dysgenics only after Mendel and "Living Space" with Malthus.
Your argument is that Parsifal's subject of rejuvenation is not a cultural one but racial and it's specifically aimed at Jews.
>it needs no specific individuals or quotes from the time to prove wrong,
"IT JUST IS, OKAY? DON'T ASK FOR SOURCES OR POST ONES THAT GO DIRECTLY AGAINST WHAT I'M SAYING OKAY, IT JUST IS"
>nor does posting individuals on one particular side of this old debate (Spengler) prove at all that it did not exist.
It does exhibit that the word race had a racial and national meaning and that it can't alone prove that Wagner was a racist in reference to Jews
>It's convenient for you to ONLY focus on Gobineau's view of Jews,
See
>We're debating about if Wagner's antisemitism was racially based.
>and not race altogether.
Because I don't give a shit about Wagner if he was a racist or not? The only interest that I've in this debate is about Parsifal subject.

[Anonymous No.19397935]

>>19397892
No, we're debating if a non-national understanding of 'race' existed beyond the aesthetic, and before Darwin, since your argument that Wagner was not racially antisemitic rests on a denial of this. This is the only reason Gobineau was mentioned.

I have supplied a quote which shows Wagner's antisemitism was racially based, and I could give countless more.

[Anonymous No.19397970]

>>19397574
>They are pretty mediocre when compared with the Germans
They were pretty incredible until they got buck broken by Rome and then thoroughly usurped by Jesus inviting the entire world into their ethno-religion.
The seething resentful Talmudic Ashkenazi pales in comparison to the Maccabees or people like Bar Kokhba declaring war on the most powerful empires in the world.

[Anonymous No.19398087]

>>19397807
People had been aware of the Aesthetics difference between races, They also had been quite aware of cultural and technological ones. Some of those visionaries attempted to link both "discoveries", Aristotle and Schopenhauer being the more notorious ones and the ones that had a direct influence on Darwin, The one that had granted a scientific interest in those racial differences, which was then followed by Mendel, which has provided the concept of genes and then eugenics and Dysgenics.
On the Schopenhauer's quote that you had posted, his argument is that a cold climate led people towards innovation
>All this is due to the fact that necessity is the mother of invention because those tribes that emigrated early to the north, and there gradually became white
His argument is that Humans have migrated to a region with a cold climate and had to be inventive in order to survive, and then, GRADUALLY BECAME WHITE, Not that they had a GENETIC PREDISPOSTION TO SURVIVE.
is an important difference to make it, And, I haven't been the only one to make it.
From the racial articles of the NSDAP itself.
>People knew all this before. However, in the past they do not realize that these physical and intellectual racial differences are inherited and can never be changed by outside influences. In fact, in the past people taught and believed that the differences between peoples and races in this world were really only accidental, caused by the climate or history or level of culture. The Negro was black because the hot sun in Africa crinkled his hair and darkened his skin. Had he been born somewhere along the North Sea coast with its grayness and lack of sun, he perhaps would have had light skin and blond hair, just like our fishermen in Friesland.
https://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/gross2.htm
It's confusing? sure, But the people in the past had made that distinction.
>>19397935
>No, we're debating if a non-national
What? the whole point that I'm making is that the word race was used in a cultural/national by some people and in other cases, in a racial sense.
Are you implying that a Nation, a set of cultures, is a genetic thing? or did you just make a typo?
>and before Darwin,
The concept of GENES, OF GENETIC PREDISPOSITON TOWARDS CERTAIN THINGS AND THE FEAR OF DYSGENICS BY MISCEGENATION did not exist before him, and with certainty, Before Mendel,
Your argument is that Parsifal's Eucharist is about RACIAL REJUVENATION, NOT A CULTURAL ONE.
See
>>19397090
>>19397099

[Anonymous No.19398097]

My net is falling, so I may delay my response a little bit

>This is the only reason Gobineau was mentioned.
No, There's a greater difference between people being prone to racism towards WHITE, YELLOW, and BLACK color of skin (Only focusing on Melanin as a racial measuring) than Between a German (Nordic/Germanic race), Slavic, and Jewish.
For a person to be racist in the former case, You only need to be able to see color and to be aware of technological differences so that you may make their assumptions.
In the latter case, You've to focus on Linguistics, Phenotypes, and Cranium measuring. All things which only become popular in the late 19th century
If Wagner did have racial prejudice against a member of the latter group, The Jews, Which are mostly of fair complexion, and no more of a swarthy than a Bavarian or an Austrian, You will have to be aware of the latter "measuring rods".

[Anonymous No.19398137]

>>19398087
>AND THE FEAR OF DYSGENICS BY MISCEGENATION did not exist before him,
I'm not going to continue to reply to your a-historical schizo ramblings, since you insist on ignoring the point of discussion and misunderstanding me, I will simply post these quotes from Kant:

>The mingling of stocks (due to great conquests), little by little erodes the character and it is not good for the human race in spite of any so-called philanthropy.
>[Of the idea that] nature would develop new and better races of produce them through the commingling of two races there is little ground for hope in as much as nature has long since exhausted the forms appropriate to soil and climate, whilst cross-breeding (for example of the American with the European or of these with the Negro) has debased the good without raising proportionately the level of the worse — hence the governor of Mexico wisely rejected the order of the Spanish Court to encourage interbreeding.
>[Whites] contain all the impulses of nature in affects and passions, all talents, all dispositions to culture and civilization and can as readily obey as govern. They are the only ones who always advance to perfection.

>Your argument is that Parsifal's Eucharist is about RACIAL REJUVENATION, NOT A CULTURAL ONE.
I never made that argument, you made the argument that Wagner was not a racial antisemite. Or are you going to deny that you made such a claim now that it is obvious he was?

You are a class A moron.

[Anonymous No.19398140]

>Only focusing on Melanin as a racial measuring

[Anonymous No.19398209]

>>19397825
>- statement on black culture according to anon
Don't be tense.
As I've elaborated before, there's a difference between racism only based around melanin and the more sophisticated one that needs philological knowledge and a lot of quack scientific apparatus.
Kant's quote is a direct reference towards a racial characteristic i.e black skin, Not a cultural one; Nigerian, Ethiopian, etc...
If you find a Wagner quote where's the latter makes a clear reference about a Jewish phenotype, You can claim him to be a racial antisemitic.
Also, You can easily find that the same Kantian form of argument on jokes about Jews, Germans, and Americans.
People have always treated cultural stereotypes as if they are natural ones.
Jews have existed in Human consciousness as a theological sect and as a nation, They only gained a racial base in the late 19th Century, We have to see it in which meaning any characteristic, Good or bad, is being attributed to them.

My argument is that the word race cannot be taken for granted do be exclusively cited in the racial sense, That some people had used it to mean culture or nation. That somewhere around the end of the 19th century, there was a change of meaning.
Heck, If you search on Wikipedia, You can easily find the same claim, even if they did claim it be earlier than the date that I've cited
>A race is a grouping of humans based on shared physical or social qualities into categories generally viewed as distinct within a given society.[1] The term was first used to refer to speakers of a common language and then to denote national affiliations. By the 17th century, the term began to refer to physical (phenotypical) traits. Modern science regards race as a social construct, an identity which is assigned based on rules made by society.[2] While partially based on physical similarities within groups, race does not have an inherent physical or biological meaning
But there did have people in Germany in the 20th Century making that transition.
And I've provided evidence of people noticing that change
See

[Anonymous No.19398213]

>>19398209

>>While Spengler emerged as a leading proponent of the so-called ‘Conservative Revolution’ in Weimar Germany, itself a reaction to this chaos, his continuation of the German Idealist legacy that placed spirit above matter in the formation of the Volk put him in opposition to many emerging elements of the ‘Right’ in Germany before the war, and those on much of the ‘Right’ outside of Germany after the war, over the question of ‘race’. Ironically, the Hitlerites owed more to English Darwinian and various Malthusian conceptions than to German Idealism, although the two mixed uneasily in the Third Reich. While the Left regard Spengler as a ‘racist’ philosopher, racial theorists conversely saw his rejection of biological racial taxonomy as having something of the ‘Left’ about it.
>https://arktos.com/2018/11/28/spengler-epigenetics-and-the-idea-of-race/
>Also, I have forgotten about some nuances in the German-English translations, "Volk" means People or Nation, Not race, even if some translators post 1945 are adamant in translating it in that way.

[Anonymous No.19398240]

>>19398209
>My argument is that the word race cannot be taken for granted do be exclusively cited in the racial sense,
No one said this though.

[Anonymous No.19398253]

>>19398137
>r a-historical schizo ramblings,
I've literally posted an article of the NSDAP specifically saying that people were naive about Genetics, A citation from Wikipedia that race was not used exclusively used to mean Genetic inheritance.
What more do you want?

>I never made that argument
That's is literally the argument on those pics
>>19397090
>>19397099
>Or are you going to deny that you made such a claim now that it is obvious he was?
It isn't.
>And in the same Judaism in Music that you have cited, Wagner had made the distinction between Jews
Notwithstanding his public utterances against Jewish influence in music, and even his utterances against specific Jews, Wagner had numerous Jewish friends and supporters even in his later period. Included amongst these were his favorite conductor Hermann Levi, the pianists Carl Tausig and Joseph Rubinstein [de], the writer Heinrich Porges and very many others. In his autobiography, written between 1865 and 1870, he declared that his acquaintance with the Jew Samuel Lehrs whom he knew in Paris in the early 1840s was ‘one of the most beautiful friendships of my life’.[27] There remain, therefore, elements of the enigmatic, and of the opportunist, in Wagner's personal attitude towards Jews.
>You are a class A moron.
Nah, Just don't have a personal agenda in making an argument.

>>19398140
Before the 19th century? Sure.

[Anonymous No.19398256]

>>19398240
>>19398240
>>My argument is that the word race cannot be taken for granted do be exclusively cited in the racial sense,
>No one said this though.


See
>>Not really, The word "Race" before the 19th Century only had a National meaning,
>This is ridiculous, both Gobineau and Schopenhauer defined a white/Caucasian race. What do you think the debate on slavery was even about? What do you think Wagner's criticism of Mendelssohn is?

[Anonymous No.19398268]

>>19398253
>>And in the same Judaism in Music that you have cited, Wagner had made the distinction between Jews
That wasn't supposed to be a >
My bad

[Anonymous No.19398349]

>I've literally posted an article of the NSDAP specifically saying that people were naive about Genetics,
Firstly, imagine using National Socialist propaganda as your main source for 19th century history, secondly it is speaking of one particular historical view.

>That's is literally the argument on those pics
And what did I say about them?

>Wagner had numerous Jewish friends and supporters even in his later period.
Literally the 'I have black friends' argument. From Cosima's diaries:

>Richard tells me, as he has done many times without disdain and with the deepest seriousness, that as our friend Levi approaches him modestly and kisses his hand, he (RW) sincerely and heartfeltedly throws his arms around Levi, and experiencing an emanation of the greatest pregnancy from within, (feels) what race division and separation are. And so is granted the good Jew among us an always melancholy portion
>[Tausig's sickness] a great shock. Even if he recovers, he is in any case lost to our undertaking. What a lesson to us! To us his death seems to have a metaphysical basis; a poor character, worn out early, one with no real faith, who, however close events brought us, was always conscious of an alien element (the Jewish). He threw himself into Bayreuth with a real frenzy, but can this outward activity help him?
>Richard maintains that it was the Judaism article which destroyed him as it did poor Tausig, for he had Jewish blood in his veins.
>Personally I have always had the best friends among the Jews, but their emancipation and civil equality before we had become (true) Germans has been destructive. I regard Germany as annihilated.

and
>>This is ridiculous, both Gobineau and Schopenhauer defined a white/Caucasian race. What do you think the debate on slavery was even about? What do you think Wagner's criticism of Mendelssohn is?
never says race ONLY had a 'racial' meaning. Can you not read?

[Anonymous No.19398359]

>>19398253
>I've literally posted an article of the NSDAP specifically saying that people were naive about Genetics,
Firstly, imagine using National Socialist propaganda as your main source for 19th century history, secondly it is speaking of one particular historical view.

>That's is literally the argument on those pics
And what did I say about them?

>Wagner had numerous Jewish friends and supporters even in his later period.
Literally the 'I have black friends' argument. From Cosima's diaries:

>Richard tells me, as he has done many times without disdain and with the deepest seriousness, that as our friend Levi approaches him modestly and kisses his hand, he (RW) sincerely and heartfeltedly throws his arms around Levi, and experiencing an emanation of the greatest pregnancy from within, (feels) what race division and separation are. And so is granted the good Jew among us an always melancholy portion
>[Tausig's sickness] a great shock. Even if he recovers, he is in any case lost to our undertaking. What a lesson to us! To us his death seems to have a metaphysical basis; a poor character, worn out early, one with no real faith, who, however close events brought us, was always conscious of an alien element (the Jewish). He threw himself into Bayreuth with a real frenzy, but can this outward activity help him?
>Richard maintains that it was the Judaism article which destroyed him as it did poor Tausig, for he had Jewish blood in his veins.
>Personally I have always had the best friends among the Jews, but their emancipation and civil equality before we had become (true) Germans has been destructive. I regard Germany as annihilated.

and
>>This is ridiculous, both Gobineau and Schopenhauer defined a white/Caucasian race. What do you think the debate on slavery was even about? What do you think Wagner's criticism of Mendelssohn is?
never says race ONLY had a 'racial' meaning. Can you not read? It was against you denying the racial meaning that I said it.

[Anonymous No.19398531]

>>19398349
>Firstly, imagine using National Socialist propaganda as your main source for 19th-century history,
It shows that there are people in Germany that still had used Race to mean something non-genetic
>However, in the past they do not realize that these physical and intellectual racial differences are inherited and can never be changed by outside influences. In fact, in the past people taught and believed that the differences between peoples and races in this world were really only accidental, caused by the climate or history or level of culture
It's a clear response to your Schopenhauer quote.

>>19398349
>And what did I say about them?
Are you not the one that had posted it? If so, It would be nice clarifying that you're not the same anon replying
>>19397576


>Literally the 'I have black friends' argument. From Cosima's diaries:
Not an argument.
>>Richard tells me, as he has done many times without disdain and with the deepest seriousness, that as our friend Levi approaches him modestly and kisses his hand, he (RW) sincerely and heartfeltedly throws his arms around Levi, and experiencing an emanation of the greatest pregnancy from within, (feels) what race division and separation are. And so is granted the good Jew among us an always melancholy portion
Post which I've made which shows that race can't only be used in a genetic sense, But also in a cultural and national one.
>>19398209
>>19398213

>What a lesson to us! To us his death seems to have a metaphysical basis; a poor character, worn out early, one with no real faith, who, however close events brought us, was always conscious of an alien element (the Jewish).
She's claiming that the Jew in question has no faith, and when they converse around the subject, It's a foreign one, his Jewish faith.
Or do you wish to claim that this part
>was always conscious of an alien element (the Jewish).
Wasn't it a reference to his faith, but his race?
>but their emancipation and civil equality before we had become (true) Germans has been destructive.
>before we had become (true) Germans
He won't use that term if he was speaking of race, As told before, Regionalism in Germany is strong, Wagner seems to be afraid of not being able of assimilating the Jewish element when the Germans can't even define it themselves.
>for he had Jewish blood in his veins
The only citation with a clear racial connotation in it, why didn't you start with it?

[Anonymous No.19398537]

>>19398531
>never says race ONLY had a 'racial' meaning. Can you not read?
Can you write? But whatever, Now you can see why only posting random quotes of anyone using the word race doesn't mean necessarily that it has a racial connotation.

I still find that there are significant moments when Wagner had demonstrated that his antisemitism was only cultural and national, Not a racial one, He stated to Ludwig II that he would be willing to allow the Jew direct Parsifal in Bayreuth only if he converted itself to Christianity, His claims in Judaism in Music, The fact that Jews, together with the Arabs, only gained a racial connotation as a subsect of the Semitic race with Gobineau, a notorious Philosemitic, and as a "genetic parasite" connotation with H.S Chamberlain's Myth of the century, a book published only after Wagner's death.

But this
>for he had Jewish blood in his veins
is a valid source, Should've started with it.

[Anonymous No.19398652]

>>19397090
>>19397099
Man, Nietzsche was right about Christianity. It makes total mince meat out of the northern man's brain.

[Anonymous No.19398706]

>>19396863
Wagner is the greatest
>>19397075
Thus Spoke Zarathustra truly was Nietzsche last cope

[Anonymous No.19398723]

>>19398706
>Thus Spoke Zarathustra truly was Nietzsche last cope
Do you think that? I've always felt that they both have made genuine claims.

[Anonymous No.19398857]

>"Zarathustra" is ethically the outcome of an unconscious protest against "Parsifal" — which artistically entirely governs it — of the rivalry of one evangelist for another.

[Anonymous No.19399619]

>>19396863

[Anonymous No.19399925]

>>19398652
>Man, Wagner was right about Christianity. It makes a total Saint out of the northern man
FTFY