/lit/ - Literature

[DUNE MESSIAH No.19389300]

I've just read it for the first time. I don't know how it had a bad reception at launch, I liked it a lot, maybe even more than the first book. But I have so many questions...

If spice is highly addictive for people that consumed it in high doses for a long time, how was it possible for the Jihad and the Qizarate to operate on thousands of planets across the galaxy for 12 years? Did the Guild simply cooperate with the transport of Fremen troops for all that time? At what point Paul gave up on shaping the empire to his image and surrendered to a specific timeline of his vision? If the Ghola was actually a clone the whole time, with no memories of the original, are we meant to interpret him becoming Duncan again as a miracle of his soul returning or as the Ghola deciding to ''turn'' into Duncan? (or even fooling himself into that role?) All that plot about making a deal with the Bene Gesserit was just a ploy to gain time and stay on track of his vision or did Paul really try to make a deal to save Chani?

[Anonymous No.19389317]

I also don't understand what the author intended for us to take away from Paul and his decisions. Was he a fatalist that surrendered to fate, accepting what he considered to be the lesser evil, or was he a true messiah that sacrificed his own life, power and happiness for the sake of humanity? I'm confused because despite all the fucked up descriptions of how blood thirsty and despotic his Jihad and government was, Paul is still framed in such a romantic, positive light at the end.

[Anonymous No.19390236]

>>19389300
It is Duncan's body, they just healed it's wounds and reanimated it

[Anonymous No.19390271]

Paul is to Elijah as Jesus is to Leto II

No blasphemy intended it's just the shortest way to frame it with a correlative and arguably parallel context

[Anonymous No.19390278]

>>19390236
After the epilogue we get a note revealing that it was not the original body, but a clone:

>Frank Herbert was not entirely deaf to his readership. In Dune Messiah, he would resurrect Duncan Idaho in an altered form—a “ghola” named Hayt, who was cloned from the cells of the dead man, resulting in a creature who did not have the memories of the original.

Also this part from the last chapter suggests that Hayt never actually knew the Atreides or anyone there, that's why I believe he was an entirely different man, with his own soul, that took the identity of Duncan for himself:

>Her words sent a shudder through him, a feeling of estrangement from his old self. He had come out here looking for one thing and had found another. It was as though he’d lurched into a room full of familiar people only to realize too late that he knew none of them.

[Anonymous No.19390298]

>>19390278
Read God Emperor; the Duncan ghola shenanigans is explained explicitly

[Anonymous No.19390303]

>>19390271
I'm not familiar, but from a quick search I got this:

>God also performed many miracles through Elijah, including resurrection, bringing fire down from the sky, and entering heaven alive "by fire".

Ressurection is referring to his part in bringing Duncan back, by helping Hayt find himself. Entering heaven alive is obviously about him going to the desert blind to die alone, but what about bringing fire down from the sky? Was Paul directly responsible for the release of the stone burner on Arrakis? I thought he only saw that with the oracle!

[Anonymous No.19390307]

>>19390298
I will start very soon, thank you.

[Anonymous No.19390324]

>>19390303
No, Elijah as in John the Baptist

Paul isn't the dude, he's the dude that rolls out the red carpet for the dude.

[Anonymous No.19390327]

>>19389300
>spice...how was it possible for the Jihad and the Qizarate to operate on thousands of planets across the galaxy for 12 years?
I'm sure his the armies and fremen that occupy planets abroad would be shipped spice to cook with. The book doesn't really cover the specific logistics of the jihad wars. Use your imagination.
>Did the Guild simply cooperate?
They had no choice, Paul had them by the nuts.
>At what point Paul gave up?
We don't know exactly, but he struggled with the guilt of jihad and probably more importantly, the terror of his prescience visions. Looking down timelines made him go a bit crazy. He started hating everything. Children of Dune goes a bit more into it.
>If the ghola...
The ghola is a clone awaken with the memories of his entire life up until his death in saving Paul and Jessica in Dune. The whole thing about him turning into Duncan was him overcoming his programming to betray Paul.
>did paul try to make a deal to save chani?
Paul didn't want to make a deal with them to save her. They would have demanded all but the throne itself. All of the chome holdings. Everything. But beside that fact, he just has Duncan kill him so he can stop hearing the temptations from the dwarf.
Paul DID try to save Chani, temporarily, allowing Irulan to poison her with contraceptives. He did this prolong her life because in his visions he saw her dying when giving to their child (he didn't see twins in his vision). So he got depressed and was fine with her not giving birth. Chani however did the fremen diet to make it work. This caused complications along with the poison. This basically caused her death. He basically allowed the poisoning to happen and the vision he saw of her dying was because he did nothing about it. I could be wrong about that part, but that was what I gathered.

[Anonymous No.19390350]

>>19389317
In the end, Paul was loved by the Fremen. They respected him. He got them out of the ghetto. Now fremen occupy foriegn worlds, some of them with oceans. Paul's death commandos would go on administrate foreign worlds and achieve wealth. All because of Mau'Dib. However many saw through it and cursed him (the conspirators). Paul deep down filled with guilt knew he was far more of a tyrant than the Corino emperors or anything humanity had known. He also was deeply in love with Chani. He just wanted to have a family with her. His vision of her dying fucked him up. Kinda like Anakin Skywalker from star wars. That and his visions of the future. The next book dives into his terror of the future. In the end though, he had the respect from everyone. The fremen boomers loved him because he walked into the desert. The fremen zoomers loved him because he made them rich. Alia and everyone in court were like, okay now we can really build a religion and gain more power through him.

[Anonymous No.19390363]

>>19389300
>If spice is highly addictive for people that consumed it in high doses for a long time, how was it possible for the Jihad and the Qizarate to operate on thousands of planets across the galaxy for 12 years? Did the Guild simply cooperate with the transport of Fremen troops for all that time?
Spice is available in many planets but the only planet that produces it is dune. Also Paul, having total control of spice production on Dune, can threaten to cut off the Guild's supply of spice if they don't comply with his demands. Not wanting to do this as this would stop space travel, the guild would agree.

[Anonymous No.19390370]

>>19390324
Oh, I see now. But that wasn't really what I wanted to know. What I don't understand is what Frank Herbert was trying to say in the bigger picture with the Atreides being idolized as demigods and the cult surrounding them. I know there is a message about distrusting charismatic leaders, political organizations, the use of war and religion to control the masses...but then the author seems to play it straight in framing Paul as a legit prophet at the end, to me it felt like this was clashing with those themes a bit.

>>19390327
I see, it felt confusing being thrown 12 years after the end of the first book, not knowing what Paul was aiming for. In the second half of the book, it felt less like we were witnessing Paul fight a conspiracy and more like watching him trying to follow the path of a specific timeline, step by step. I know that was intentional, but it felt a bit frustrating and confusing to follow. Who was responsible for the stone burner?

[Anonymous No.19390372]

>>19390327

IIRC Paul's visions had Chani being blamed for his death unless it happened under very specific circumstances. She'd basically be tortured for the rest of her life. So he basically decided that he would play for the survival of the kids, and her having a painless death.

[Anonymous No.19390406]

>>19390350
>>19390372
Yeah, I got that Paul was basically an intergalactic giga Hitler against his intentions, and he only allowed things to get that far because he was following the only timeline he found that could guarantee that Chani would die at childbirth instead of being paraded naked in a cage though many worlds then thrown into the slave pits, and also guarantee that his son would rule the empire. That's it, right? That's fucked up.

“Very good, Stil.” Paul glanced at the reels in Korba’s hands. Korba stood with them as though he wished he could drop them and flee. “Statistics: at a conservative estimate, I’ve killed sixty-one billion, sterilized ninety planets, completely demoralized five hundred others. I’ve wiped out the followers of forty religions which had existed since—”
“Unbelievers!” Korba protested. “Unbelievers all!”
“No,” Paul said. “Believers.”
“My Liege makes a joke,” Korba said, voice trembling. “The Jihad has brought ten thousand worlds into the shining light of—”
“Into the darkness,” Paul said. “We’ll be a hundred generations recovering from Muad’dib’s Jihad. I find it hard to imagine that anyone will ever surpass this.” A barking laugh erupted from his throat.
“What amuses Muad’dib?” Stilgar asked.
“I am not amused. I merely had a sudden vision of the Emperor Hitler saying something similar. No doubt he did.”

[Anonymous No.19390411]

give me a rundown of this shit series and why its so popular right now with sois

[Anonymous No.19390456]

>>19390350
Korba set off the stone burner knowing that Paul and his men were located in that area of the city. When Paul has the meeting and with the fremen leaders and confronts Korba, he mentions how Korba has access to stone burners because of his position.

[Anonymous No.19390461]

>>19390456
>>19390370
meant for you

[Anonymous No.19390489]

>>19390372
Yeah you are referring to his talk with the Bene Gesserit before going with Chani and company to give birth right? I didn't understand this part where he gives in to them. Their plot completely rested on Duncan which wasn't going well for the Tlaiaxu

[Anonymous No.19390497]

>>19390411
The movie is why. For me it's one of the few books I like to read.

[Anonymous No.19390513]

>>19390461
I see, that makes sense. I just found that the answer was right at the start of the book, in the writings from the captured historian that was sentenced to death for it:

>Yet, they delineate the Qizarate cabal guided by Korba the Panegyrist. They take us step by step through Korba’s plan to make a martyr of Muad’dib and place the blame on Chani, the Fremen concubine.

>>19390489
I don't get this either, it seemed like the conspiracy had no real leverage there, so why would Paul entertain talks about making a deal with the Bene Gesserit? In the end like so many other plot points, it seems like the answer was: it was oracle stuff, the intricate butterfly effect of incalculable actions and reactions etc etc don't ask just accept it.

[Anonymous No.19390981]

The real question is: why was Alia so fertile and breedable in this book?

[Anonymous No.19391070]

>>19390981
literally every female in these books is a super model

[Anonymous No.19391088]

>>19391070
No, you don't understand, I meant she was LITERALLY fertile and breedable, I'm not saying she was hot. That scene where she fights 11 automatons felt like she was a cat in heat, even Stilgar said it was paramount that she took the D before doing something crazy.

[Anonymous No.19391090]

>>19391088
>That scene where she fights 11 automatons

naked

[Anonymous No.19391159]

>>19390981
She was experiencing sexual maturity.

[Anonymous No.19391161]

>>19391088
Oh yeah, I think that is intentional for sure. Basically she has hormones taking over and very sexual in this book. It puts emphasis in the need for her to have someone she can have a real romance with in Duncan. She has had plenty of sex with fremen culture, but I don't think she has felt any love. What she has early on with Duncan is closest she gets.

[Anonymous No.19391175]

OP are you going straight into children? I just finished it this week and I'm half way through God Emperor.

[Anonymous No.19391196]

>>19391159
>>19391161
I think she knew all there was to know about sex from the memories of the previous reverend mothers but she never had sex in the fremen orgies, but I may be wrong. She was called the virgin-harlot, whatever that means.

>>19391175
Yeah anon, I'm just waiting to digest prophet before starting children. I'm very curious to see how things play out with the new empire and the rival power factions, and to know the twins. I hope Children of Dune brings back Gourney and Jessica as main characters too.

[Anonymous No.19391210]

>>19389317
The only criticism of Paul was that he was aware of the golden path but he chose not to take it. He stomached the atrocities of conquest but only because the alternative was much worse. In the end he couldn't sacrafice his humanity for the golden path. You decide if that makes him better or worse than Leto.

>>19390981
To build sexual tension between her and Paul I imagine.

My favorite quote from this book and the Dune series as a whole:

>Edric cleared his throat, said: “Let
>us not bandy philosophical nonsense. Every question can be boiled down to
>the one: ‘Why is there anything?’ Every religious, business and
>governmental question has the single derivative: ‘Who will exercise the
>power?’ Alliances, combines, complexes, they all chase mirages unless they
>go for the power. All else is nonsense, as most thinking beings come to
>realize.”

[Anonymous No.19391214]

Paul knew Stilgar would end up disobeying him and executing Mohiam or it was another blind spot in the oracle just like the twins? It was a bit disappointing to have Mohiam killed off screen (but I'm not all that sure she was killed).

[Anonymous No.19391231]

>>19391210
What do you mean by golden path? Going full space Hitler to secure his empire at the cost of even more death and suffering from innocents? If so, I guess he took the path of the lesser evil at great personal cost, if that's what really happened and there was no other way.

Great quote there, I love how cynical, no bullshit approach this series has to politics and power. It shows how ugly it really is, despite all the things people do to mask it. My favorite is from one epigraph:

>The convoluted wording of legalisms grew up around the necessity to hide from ourselves the violence we intend toward each other. Between depriving a man of one hour from his life and depriving him of his life there exists only a difference of degree. You have done violence to him, consumed his energy. Elaborate euphemisms may conceal your intent to kill, but behind any use of power over another the ultimate assumption remains: “I feed on your energy.”

[Anonymous No.19391232]

>>19391210
>>19391214
Yeah I wish we would get a detailed God Father execution of Mohiam and Edric. So many killings happen off page. This book lacked action.

[Anonymous No.19391244]

>>19391231
He's getting ahead, Golden Path is a thing in the next book.

[Anonymous No.19391253]

>>19391232
So she's really dead? Man, that's lame.

>>19391244
Oh.

[Anonymous No.19391260]

>>19391253
It was more about Alia cleaning up any remaining threat to the throne. She is in power now.

[Anonymous No.19391274]

>>19391260
I see. If she wasn't in full sync with Paul in Messiah, I can only imagine how difficult it be for her to deal with the twins, specially because it seems like each new generation is getting a significant power up in the oracle business. I'm already hyped.

[Anonymous No.19391284]

>>19391274
Yeah it becomes "difficult" alright

[Anonymous No.19391299]

>>19391231
no the golden path is worm fucking future sight to ensure humanity is not enslaved by machines.

That's a nice line too I forgot about.

>>19391232
It did, on the whole messiah was disappointing after Dune.

[Anonymous No.19391331]

>>19391284
>Yeah it becomes "difficult" alright

[Anonymous No.19391337]

ALIA GO SPLATIA

[Anonymous No.19391632]

>>19389300
I recommend reading the rest of the books, most of the things are intentionally left ambiguous by the author. Some of them are explained in great detail in the later books others will have hints to the answers you seek. But most everything will come down to something called "the golden path" ... which is difficult to explain.

I personally love the books precisely because it has little closure in many things, it doesn't give you answers, try to explain life philosophy or make you understand the authors vision. It's up to you to figure it out by reading the books

[Anonymous No.19391666]

>>19391632
Oh don't worry, I really want to keep going and read all the Dune books from Frank Herbert (I will probably skip his son's books, not just because of general criticism but because its not from the same mind, I don't trust it to be faithful to the original saga). I'm somewhat insecure on my capabilities so I tend to assume that a lot goes over my head, it's really reassuring to know that things get expanded on later books and a lot of it is in fact ambiguous and challenging. Thank you, anon.

[Anonymous No.19391790]

>>19389300
>here lies a toppled god
>his fall was not a small one
>we did but build his pedestal
>a narrow and a tall one

[Anonymous No.19391798]

>>19389317
That's the point. Paul's character is intended as a warning not to trust charismatic leaders.

[Anonymous No.19391815]

>>19391790
Considering that Scytale's plan failed miserably, that epigraph made no sense to me. Unless you tell me the Tleilaxu somehow predicted all that chain of events from the start, which sounds absurd to me.

>>19391798
That's exactly why I think it's weird that Frank Herbert frames Paul in such a romantic positive light by the end.

[Anonymous No.19391870]

>>19391815
>That's exactly why I think it's weird that Frank Herbert frames Paul in such a romantic positive light by the end.

Now that I think about it, the author is sympathetic towards Paul because he is also a victim in the bigger picture, a victim of destiny, the oracle and himself. That doesn't betray the themes of the book, it complements them.