/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.1935846]

Guys... I tried to play video games for the first time in weeks. After about 30 minutes I got bored and decided to draw a hot bath and read Pynchon's V.

I can't believe what you've done to me /lit/.

Thank you.

[Anonymous No.1935862]

one of us! one of us!

[Anonymous No.1935864]

If this is true, then you just made my day a little happier.

[Anonymous No.1935867]

what do you think troy's favorite book is

[©The Artist Formerly Known as Apostrophe !8hzzLmleDA No.1935866]

~welcome to le club

[Anonymous No.1935874]

did it look this stupid?

[Anonymous No.1935875]

>>1935866
<3

[Anonymous No.1935883]

>>1935874
the person who put together that setup is probably the best bad boyfriend any of his lovers ever had. like they'll be telling their friends stories about him for years to come

[Anonymous No.1935892]

>>1935883
oh shit, wait, i just noticed the pink razor

maybe it belongs to rob lowe on parks and recreation...but then baths are too inefficient for him

[Anonymous No.1935919]

Fucking a, OP. Fucking a.

Videogames bore me dearly., especially when they get difficult. I have friends who play a lot and they'll repeat the same shit and then complain that the video game is so hard.

I will never understand why people put effort into playing video games. I can do understand, but I really see no fun in playing video games or challenging myself to be better at playing video games.

There's no better feeling than being immersed in a good book.

[Anonymous No.1935937]

>>1935919
The fun part is facing and overcoming the challenge, knucklehead. There is also the immersion part of video games, but that should go without saying.

[Anonymous No.1935948]

OP confirmed for not playing Banjoo Kazooie.

>>1935874
That's as classy as it gets.

[Anonymous No.1935958]

>Enjoy literature
>Enjoy video games
>Hoping to one day work in vidya for programming/story design
Problem /lit?

[Anonymous No.1935962]

I like playing video games but usually I need to play with another person. That's why I mostly play games built around multiplayer like sports games and first-person shooters. Assassin's Creed is the only (largely) single player series that I play.

[Anonymous No.1935968]

>>1935937
Sorry, but the challenges seem trivial and the immersion is shadowed by the extremely immature content.

Nothing would be more than wonderful if Assassin's Creed 2 didn't actually had the assassins leaping from building to building and killing people mercilessly (while also being mildly upset about assassinating their leaders).

Not that I mind the actual assassinations, they could have been a few (maybe 3 or 4). It's just that video games gratify the notion of killing. This is not a game about Ezio fighting against a massive conspiracy and following his revenge plan, this is about doing "epic" and "awesome" stuff like jumping from buildings and killing people.

[Anonymous No.1935969]

>>1935937
I said I understand it, I guess I just don't like videogames and I don't see a point to trying to get better at something that gives you nothing except for some immediate pleasure that isn't even that great.

I used to play Civ IV, Portal, Uplink, Ninja Gaiden Black, Mario Tennis but now none of these games appeal to me unless I'm stoned and if I'm stoned I'd much rather read and trip out on some books/poetry.

[Anonymous No.1935992]

Videogames bore me to hell and there's nothing worse than going to a friends and sitting and watching him play video games and when he passes you the remote, you play one round of whatever just out of politeness and not to look like a faggot and then you die instantly, don't even care and hand back the controller and watch your friend play video games for another hour.

Shit's boring. I can appreciate games like Portal and another puzzle/strategy games but I'd rather play scrabble with some friends and some alcohol. Scrabble is actually a lot of fun and good socializing if your friend aren't all a bunch of boring dumbasses.

pic related, it's scrabble

[Anonymous No.1936011]

Fun fact about my video game experience is that I always searched the in-game books and writings before doing anything else relevant. I even quit Oblivion and Mass Effect and read the books/Codex on the Internet instead of playing it.

On the other hand, I have never played Planescape Torment (actually I did, but I quit after exiting the mortuary) because of those few obligatory fights. I was waiting for a mod back then to remove them, but I forgot about the game itself after a while. Maybe I should try it once more ...

[Anonymous No.1936032]

>>1935968
I want to reply to that, but your pretentious attitude makes me feel uncomfortable.

[Anonymous No.1936038]

>>1936032
I'm not pretentious since I actually like video games (especially strategy games). But I still think that many of them are immature because they sacrifice the meaningful message that books and movies offer (not all the time though) for fun.

So please reply, please?

[Anonymous No.1936043]

I would like to admit that I've been playing Tactics Ogre instead of reading books. For over 200 hours. I'm sorry I shame you so, /lit/.

[Anonymous No.1936044]

>>1935968

Agreed. Aside from stabbing motherfuckers, with Ezio being the son of an influential banker and nephew to this guy who owns a villa, the story (and, hell, the gameplay) should have had a lot more interesting intrigue.

Fuck your linearity; stick me in a sandbox and let me choose my own targets, who work as nodes in a connected story web. Let me dynamically plot my own assassinations. Give me some fucking emergent gameplay, Ubi, or at least make the assassinations as dramatic as they were in the first one.

> it's like I'm really on /v/

[Anonymous No.1936059]

>>1936044
I can tell you've almost never been to /v/ because everyone knows they don't actually discuss video games there.

[Anonymous No.1936073]

>>1936059
What he did however is not necessarily video game discussion. Like I said, '"vidya" needs to stop focusing being just kiddie entertainment.

I know that Crime and Punishment is not one of /lit/'s favorite books, but I always use it in this kind of arguments because it features the crime of 2 innocents. If C&P was a video game, it would feature no psychological distress, no interesting and clever social exchanges and Raskolnikov would murder several hundred more old ladies instead of 2.

[Anonymous No.1936077]

I happen to like both. I feel like you're missing out, but I don't really know.
If you don't like them you don't like them.

[Anonymous No.1936098]

>>1935919 Videogames bore me dearly., especially when they get difficult

>>1935962 I like playing video games but usually I need to play with another person. That's why I mostly play games built around multiplayer like sports games and first-person shooters.

Fucking casuals.

[Anonymous No.1936103]

>>1936073
Fuck you and people like you. The reason video games have been in decline for the last decade is because they've shifted away from engaging interactive mechanics to trying too hard to be taken seriously.

http://insomnia.ac/

[Anonymous No.1936111]

>>1936044 emergent gameplay

Another one of those stupid fucking terms cocksucking game critics use to sound sophisticated, as if every video game didn't have a way for you to exploit it in ways the programmers didn't intend.

[Anonymous No.1936126]

>>1936103
Funny because I actually like Alex Kierkegaard's thesis and I support his beliefs. I'm not promoting shitty artsy games like Passage or indie games that just reuse Atari-old gaming concepts.

I'm talking about interactive complexity, just like he does. I don't want meaningless poetry and vague imagery in games.

I want choices and freedom.

To return to my AC2 example. If I kill lots of (somewhat innocent) soldiers and I assassinate people that I shouldn't, I want the city to hate me and I want to be considered a rogue. I want to be able to make their death to look like an accident.

Basically, I'd like it be complex and strategic the same way Hitman games were.

Interesting enough, I don't think that Flower or some other petty post-modern bullshit counts as video game art, but games like Dwarf Fortress or Minecraft or Civilization. Games where everything is dealt with a little more maturity and where the gameplay is raising up in interactivity.

[Anonymous No.1936132]

>>1936111

Every game does. But some games have it more (Minecraft or Grand Theft Auto versus a rail shooter) and it's a quality you can design a game to aim for.

[Anonymous No.1936139]

>>1936132

Designing for emergent gameplay:
> give the player lots of tools
> give the player a setting with dynamically-changing variables (randomly-spawning enemies, for example)
> give the player competing objectives (Minecraft: mine vs craft vs HOLY SHIT SKELLINGTONS)

Compared to something like Heavy Rain, which is about ONE experience (or, okay, a few, with branching plots) the developer is trying to convey very specifically. He wants you to feel THIS emotion at THIS time.

[Anonymous No.1936148]

>>1936126
Fair enough, but why do you equate "linearity" with "kiddy"? The majority of tightly designed and sophisticated games have been linear (Link's Awakening, Super Metroid, etc...).

>>1936132
The problem with sandbox games is that mssion objectives can get shallow and repetitive to a more polished linear experience. Treasure's Sin and Punishment is a good example of a rail shooter that accomplishes a more engaging experience than any run-of-the-mill GTA ripoff.

[Anonymous No.1936158]

>>1936148

I wasn't saying sandbox games are any better or worse. Both have their downsides.

With something like assassin's creed, what I really wanted was more choice, or at least the illusion of more choice. They want to convey the image of this grand Italian assassin who's part of this vast network...and ALL OF THAT WORLD, that element of his life, that I get to take part in, is the actual knife-to-throat of the assassinations themselves.

The dude comparing AC to Hitman is fucking dead on. They're pretty different games, but in the places where they overlap, Hitman puts AC to fucking shame.

[Anonymous No.1936183]

Video games are no more or less a waste of time than books. All are distractions from acquiring actual skills like falconry or plumbing.

[Anonymous No.1936187]

I don't equate linearity with kiddie, but thematic simplicity. Video games are not able to break out their action/sci-fi/fantasy shell and that's part of the problem.

Like I said, this are games where you kill hundreds of things and the characters do not feel bad. That's not how it works in stories in general.

Hell, not even the action part is doing right. I was insanely bored of seeing the same "killing" animations in AC or God of War. Compare that to normal action movies where a guy like Indiana Jones uses his environment and his wit to defeat his enemies. He doesn't just punch in one way.

A game that somehow did this good lately was the Deus Ex leak. You want to sit and enjoy the view and have some chat while there's a very important mission in progress? Okay, now here's some dead hostages.
That sort of situation made me feel bad and it was related to gameplay. Not to mention the different way of approaching problems, or the different reactions you get from your colleagues depending on what you did in the missions. While still an action sci-fi, this game manages to make it complex and meaningful (and so did the first one).

[Anonymous No.1936218]

>>1936187
But games are not a narrative medium. Why should genre conventions matter or not? I can think of plenty of games that have built interesting worlds out of familiar genre elements. Sci-fi.fantasy stories are great for the conflict scenarios that help move the actions in games forward.

I agree that God of War type games are boring, but not because of the killing, but because all the killing moves are tedious.

What is "meaning" in the context of a game? I'll quote insomnia.ac again:

>>And what about Space Invaders? What about the message, "Protect the Earth -- even if the future of the Earth is uncertain"? And who is to say that one message is less important than another? For fuck's sakes dude, what could possibly be more important than the survival of the human race?

What does it matter if the protagonist only punches in "one way" if that way is enjoyable? I've played plenty of complex, boring point and click adventure games and plenty of simple, thrilling shooters that gave me a more emotional experience.

Are you saying that every death in every story has to make the protagonist feel bad?

[Anonymous No.1936267]

>>1936218
> But games are not a narrative medium.
This is arguable. Like you said, games everywhere try to have story and cutscenes. It's a typical narratology vs ludology debate.

Do you want the supreme game to be the next chess? Fine, but that's not art.
Do you want the supreme game to be the next Citizen Kane? Fine, but do it right.

> Sci-fi.fantasy stories are great for the conflict scenarios that help move the actions in games forward.
But reusing them to death is just an unavoidable cliche, like anime always having weird shit going on.

As for the quote ... this is not about the message. This is about showing something greater. Protect the Earth? With a spaceship?
How about protecting yourself, or your family? How about wondering if Earth deserves being protected or not? How about showing the internal fear of superior extraterrestrial beings outsmarting us?

Think about books. How many of them feature just an "save the world" theme? Only the bad ones quite.

> Are you saying that every death in every story has to make the protagonist feel bad?
That's a bit extreme. I'm saying that every death in some story should make YOU (and the protagonist too maybe) feel bad. Just like the Deus Ex example.

[Anonymous No.1936347]

>>1936267
Games are simulations of abstract realities, they don't need a story to be enjoyable.

There is no standard definition of "art". And there is no such thing as a "supreme game" with the breadth and depth of form and function that games as a whole possess.

"Citizen Kane" is only notable because at the time it was quite innovative in it's cinematography techniques. There is no shortage of clever, innovative games that use more than narrative conceits to intrigue the player. The whole notion of a "citizen Kane" of games is one of those pointless issues that game journalists occupy themselves with out of a self-conscious desire to be taken seriously by some editor at the New Yorker.

Why is Chess, a game centuries old that has contributed greatly to culture, somehow less worthwhile than Citizen Kane?

Your argument relies on exaggerations and generalizations. The fact that you make some blanket statement about "anime always having some weird stuff" shows only your blanket dismissal of the art works (in this case, animation) produced by a single culture.

And you act as though the whole history of artistic culture has not been the exploration and variation of a few familiar themes. Genre fiction and sci-fi stories are no more cliche than stories about some struggling writer in New York or a man trying to connect with his distant father. There's a lot that can be done with a theme so broad as "save the world". Isn't self-preservation the whole point of most games? Or saving a loved one (like a princess)?

You contradict yourself. in one paragraph you demand more diversity, then in the next you demand that every death make the character feel bad. Should Mario have a break down every time he steps on a Goomba? And how do you show something greater than saving the entire planet?

You're too self-conscious to actually enjoy video games. I pity you.

[Anonymous No.1936360]

ATTENTION EVERYONE!

I have the ultimate solution to your argument!
If you like games, play games. If you dont, dont.

Those of you who don't like games, are you attempting to make others NOT play games, or protect your elite definition of art by not including what you percieve to be a lesser form of entertainment?

People who do play games, why do you care?

[Anonymous No.1936411]

>>1936347
> Why is Chess, a game centuries old that has contributed greatly to culture, somehow less worthwhile than Citizen Kane?
I haven't said that. Why do you think art is more important than chess? As far as I'm aware, art is just another spectrum of entertainment. I do not pity the gamers, but I don't consider games to be art.

> "Citizen Kane" is only notable because at the time it was quite innovative in it's cinematography techniques.
Not really, the movie stands on its own more than any other movies. No one says Shakespeare is one of the best writers of all time just because it was innovative and influential.

> You contradict yourself. in one paragraph you demand more diversity, then in the next you demand that every death make the character feel bad. Should Mario have a break down every time he steps on a Goomba? And how do you show something greater than saving the entire planet?
So I guess you decided to go the "LOL I TROLU" route, right? I pretty much stated that not every single game should have meaningful deaths, just some of them (especially those that point out meaningfulness like Assassin's Creed did with the targets). Mario did perfect in what it tried to achieve.

Anyway, this discussion is off. I went away from /v/ just to get away from stupid trolling crap like you tried to did. If you don't plan having an actual educational conversation and just outsmart someone's arguments, then go someplace else please.

[Anonymous No.1936426]

>>1936360
>playing games

[Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ No.1936432]

[Anonymous No.1936436]

>>1936411
Do you want games to be art or not? If art is just "another spectrum of entertainment", then what do you care? I never said art was more important than chess, I said chess had merit in culture.

Citizen Kane has a familiar story (one could even say generic). It's reputation is greater than it's actual accomplishments (same with Shakespeare).

> I'm saying that every death in some story should make YOU (and the protagonist too maybe) feel bad. Just like the Deus Ex example.

Those were your words, not mine.

It's hard to have an intelligent conversation when you're just regurgitation everything from those stuck-up fags at The Escapist.

[Anonymous No.1936448]

>>1936436
I did said '"some" by the way ...
And no, I actually hate Extra Credits and Jim Sterling AND Yahtzee. Unskippable is the only thing worth watching.

[Anonymous No.1936457]

My steam account... it feels so pointless now. Those games, they no longer give me joy.

[Anonymous No.1936459]

>>1936457
Try gog.com instead.

[Anonymous No.1936462]

>>1935992
>mfw I wish I had friends who wanted to drink and play scrabble.
Dude, I live in rural-fucking nowhere. I don't have a single friend who reads, and only one who is intelligent enough to have deep conversations with(he actually is really smart because of video games). It sucks when we drink or get stoned, too, because they don't want to do anything but go vandalize shit, listen to Kid Cudi or watch Jackass. I'm going to college in the fall so I hope I find some cool hipster friends.
>>1935962
I'm kinda the same way. I hate playing shit by myself, but I love playing things online.

[Anonymous No.1936465]

>>1936448
You said "every" death in "some" story, implying that every time someone or something dies in any given story it should make the reader or main character sad.

[Anonymous No.1936467]

I love both games and books. Both are great ways to avoid the scourge of humanity.

[Anonymous No.1936472]

>>1936465
Again, this is not about who's better at debate. If you can tell me why I'm wrong besides not saying explicitly clear my message, then go someplace else.

I was referring to the kills you did, as a character. Of course not all of them per say, but it's still important for example in Assassin's Creed where he says Requiestat in Pace to the actual evil templars but not to the soldier who were just doing their job.

[Anonymous No.1936477]

>>1936472
But I did tell you why you're wrong, the fact that you can't seem to grasp the concept of "games" as a simulation and not a narrative medium.

Your example doesn't really add or take anything away from the actual act.

[Anonymous No.1936478]

>not being able to enjoy a game
Wow you must be fun to be around

[Anonymous No.1936485]

>>1936467
If anything books open my eyes more and more to the madness within humanity. Yes, it's not an escape but instead some form of clarity that allows me to see my friends.... and hate them. To even hate myself. Yes, and from this I cause them pain and take advantage of their weaknesses. I meet new people only to shatter them for allowing me so close to their hearts. Yes, books have bread a disease and I continue to spread my wrath to all I meet. And for what? For joy. Joy in hurting what I hate, and joy in becoming lost in that same hate.

[Anonymous No.1936501]

An example for me, when the gameplay is an integral part of the narrative experience, even though the narrative was done mainly through text exposition

[Anonymous No.1937170]

>>1936477
actually, games are just activity done for enjoyment. that's why call of duty has BLOODY SCREEN SO REAL and you don't die for single shots

[Anonymous No.1937429]

a sandbox game is like buying a book with all blank pages.