/swtg/ - Start With the Greeks General

[Anonymous No.19300165]

Discuss Greek literary works here. Romebros welcomed too, but keep history to a minimum, save that for /his/

[Anonymous No.19300174]

>>19300165
what was the best kill in the illiad?

[Anonymous No.19300180]

I know it's Roman but is Eneida from Virgil worth the read?

[Anonymous No.19300192]

For the life of me, I cannot find an answer to this question I've had for a while. There's an ancient Greek word which means something along the lines of "being controlled by a god." The concept occurs in the Iliad a few times, when gods will literally take over the bodies of certain soldiers, giving them god-like strength and making them skilled, unkillable fighters. The answer is NOT apotheosis or afflatus. I /think/ the word starts with "theo" as many related words do.

>>19300174
Achilles killing Hector easily

>>19300180
I'd say so. It isn't complete, but so what? at the end, if your goal is to become a classicist or writer, it is a pretty essential read. Aeneas and Dido's relationship and the trip to the underworld are great references for writers.

[Anonymous No.19300214]

Ok, so hear me out... I just finished Edith Hamilton's Mythology and a book about Greek myths in my own language. I'm moving on to a book about the Trojan war, and then I'm jumping straight into the Iliad with a companion to the version I'm reading to guide me. Looks good on paper, but I have a problem. There are so many fucking names. "X titan did Y thing with Z mortal on this or that obscure Greek island in order to fix...", you get the point. Even though I've read two fucking books about Greek mythology, so much of this shit just doesn't stick. I don't think reading the Iliad will be too difficult, but I'm worried. Will my seeming inability to remember the required amount of names, places, lineages and so on have a negative impact on my experience once I move on to other works of Greek literature? What was your experience like when you first started reading the Greeks? Any tips? Thanks in advance.

[Anonymous No.19300225]

>>19300192
ok besides that one. Im thinking one of the boulder smashes. guys were always lifting big ass boulders and crushing dudes.
or maybe when Achilles spears a dude begging and clutching his legs. The night raid chapter was badass too.

[Anonymous No.19300228]

>>19300214
Anon, you don't have to remember these names. They're there because Homer was autistic. Literally no one but a few other autists care about the names. Someone post the WoW raid expectation pic.

[Anonymous No.19300234]

Where do I start with Plato?

[Anonymous No.19300248]

>>19300214
calm the fuck down. the illiad is fun to read. dont stress about companions guides and shit just sit down and read it.
unless you are actually stupid or something? idk. My tip is stop thinking about reading it and read it.

[Anonymous No.19300260]

>>19300214
hmm, I guess it depend on the character. Achilles and Odysseus, yea its pretty fucking important you know who these characters are, Diomedes? sure but less so. Alcmena? Achelous? Tereus? it doesn't matter if you retain who these characters are or not. The more you read, the more you find connections between characters--lineages, events, ect.

My recommendation is to just read bro and not obsess over small details

[Anonymous No.19300264]

>>19300234
read the five dialogues translated by Grube and then the republic and then read everything in 'chronological' order.

[Anonymous No.19300271]

>>19300260
if you don't remember Diomedes, lord of the war cry, go fall on your own spear.

[Anonymous No.19300277]

>>19300228
Thank you. I've seen others say this as well, but the way these stories I'm reading (the shortened versions of) are written, and because Apollodorus keeps banging on my head with all these retarded ass names, they probably feel more important than they actually are. I'll read the book on the Trojan war and jump into it.
>>19300248
I'm not stupid, I'm just trying to understand the stuff I read. I feel like I'd miss out on many essential things if I just jumped into it without doing any research beforehand.

[Anonymous No.19300278]

>>19300174
this is almost depressing

[Anonymous No.19300281]

>>19300264
Thanks anon

[Anonymous No.19300288]

>>19300260
Thanks, man. I tend to feel like I'm "missing out" if I don't understand or retain everything I read, especially if it's an ancient work like the Iliad, but I guess I just need to calm down.

[Anonymous No.19300293]

>>19300278
Why? war is badass. I went to war and killed 3-5 Afgans. Violence is a very important facet of life, same as sex. Stop trying to neuter the world pussy if I met you in the field I'd smash you with a boulder bitch.

[Anonymous No.19300324]

>>19300214
honestly, those scenes, except for the pleasant similes that embellish them, can be skipped without offence to homer

[Anonymous No.19300329]

>>19300324
>>19300228
>referencing Homer like he is a specific individual

[Anonymous No.19300355]

>>19300329
>like HE is a specific individual

[Anonymous No.19300368]

>>19300293
10yr olds on 4chan.org/lit/

[Anonymous No.19300464]

>>19300355
like xir was a specific individual

[Anonymous No.19300473]

>>19300368
I am twenty nine years old. I don't expect cattle like you to understand what drives the world.

[Anonymous No.19300871]

>>19300473
You served your masters well, goy. You should be proud.

[Anonymous No.19300891]

>>19300871
I always considered myself a mercenary. Now uncle Sam gives me 1900 a month for ptsd and tinnitus, plus free college and rent and healthcare.

[Anonymous No.19300898]

>>19300473
& i don't expect 10 year olds to understand homer

[Anonymous No.19300934]

According to my notes, I've read 58 books related to Ancient Greece and Rome, including history, philosophy, theatre, mythology, anthropology, and memoirs.

My favorite is Prometheus Bound, but it was Oedipus Rex at one point and the Bacchae at another. My favorite philosophical work is Aristotle's Poetics. My overall favorite Greek work is Xenophon's Anabasis. My favorite works of modern Greco-Roman anthropology are Finley's World of Odysseus and Girard's Violence and the Sacred (a book that is a LOT of things and is admittedly more literary criticism and philosophy than real anthropology). Favorite Greek figure is Alcibiades. Diogenes and Odysseus are close runner ups.

AMA. No i do not speak a lick of Greek ): as cool as it would be to speak it i really do not see much value in developing that skill

[Anonymous No.19300981]

>>19300174
Not Illiad but still Homer >>19287714

[Anonymous No.19300990]

>>19300214
Ever read all the names of WoW chars coming by?

[Anonymous No.19301009]

>>19300981
Nice. I was surprised the first time I read Homer at how graphic the deaths can be. I am heavy with coors light right now.

[Anonymous No.19301016]

>>19300981
kek i dont remember this at all. someone i knew died a similar way. got drunk, fell off a balcony on the eighth floor of a hotel.

[Anonymous No.19301040]

>>19300981
lol what a boy

[Anonymous No.19301106]

>>19300981
Imaginge, then, having your fate recorded for eternity to be laughed at by every single generation for well over two thousand years.
lmao

[Anonymous No.19301139]

>>19300165
I just managed to buy a Folio Society copy of Aesop's Fables for like 55% off their usual prices. Waiting for their editions of the Iliad and Odyssey to come back in stock. I feel like the greatest words deserve the best quality editions.

[Anonymous No.19302562]

bump

[Anonymous No.19302716]

>>19300165
I started with the Greeks and resumed with the Romans, now where do I go from here? Is there a chart for, I guess, early medieval literature? I wanna keep going chronologically.

[Anonymous No.19302842]

>>19300934
is anabasis really better than herodotus?

[Anonymous No.19302851]

>>19301139
lol

[Anonymous No.19303082]

>>19301139
Are those actually nice or do they just look nice? I've seen those kinds of "collector's edition" books from other publishers and they're usually just cheapo garbage trying to look fancy.

[Anonymous No.19303499]

Currently reading Plutarch's lives. Still not sure what to think of it, reminds me of the histories but not as fun but ive only reached Numa so alot more to read before any judgement. Has any anons read it? im reading the modern libary edition.

[Anonymous No.19303510]

Diomedes carried the argives

[Anonymous No.19303767]

reading Robert Graves currently, but the question is - were ancient Greeks/civilizations around the culture this matriarchal, as he claims and writes?
or is it just Graves faggatory taking over?

[Anonymous No.19303870]

>>19303082
Easton and, to a greater extent, B&N "leatherbounds" are exactly what you describe: cheapo garbage trying to look fancy. Folio's hardbacks are actually well put together, have thicker paper than typical books, sewn bindings, and overall feel better in your hands. Probably the only "fancy" book publisher that I think has ever lived up to their claims. That said, I'd much prefer to pay secondhand prices than what they charge directly.

[Anonymous No.19305030]

>>19300192
I don't know the word either, but I know exactly what you mean. Specifically the scene of Diomedes' aristeia (I think it's around Book 5) is one where he seems to be almost entirely under the control/power of a god.

[Anonymous No.19305354]

>>19300174
Patroclus's kill, at least in the translation I've read was fucking metal.
>Patroclus gets bitch-slapped by Apollo SO HARD his shield and lance disintegrate
>some literal who stabs him but doesn't kill him
>then he gets no-scoped in the balls by Hector

[Anonymous No.19305377]

>>19303767
think r graves makes his case better than anyone on this board will

[Anonymous No.19305409]

>>19300214
You're in for a big surprise son...... there is an entire book in the Iliad that's just names told from Helen's perspective.
>captain a from island b, son of c, descnendant of d, born alongside river e, brings 40 ships
And so on. Don't worry though, the names you have to remember will present themselves in the poem enough times to memorize them. There are only a handful of characters that are important. Some of them appear in other poems but once you do get to these other poems you can just go back to the Iliad and read about them. Greeks had a godlike memory back then but we're not ancient Greeks.

[Anonymous No.19305629]

>>19305409
The Catalogue of Ships is actually really interesting. It's kind of a roll call for the audience to hear their tribe. So when the rhapsode recites the poem and gets to some literal whos from Elis or Boeotia or whatever, it's the cue for the audience members from that area to make some noise and cheer for their supposed ancestors

[Anonymous No.19305758]

>>19305409
i'm not sure they did have such a good memory. erymas, acamas and chromius are killed twice (and chromius lives to tell the tale)

[Anonymous No.19306079]

>>19305629
Wow...if you put it that way then it's one of the most based sections of the poem. I always forget that these epics were supposed to pass through oral tradition. I never considered the implications. Thanks anon.

[Anonymous No.19306105]

>>19305629
>>19306079
Kek. Now I smile imagining how this would go. Imagine this poem is recited in a city from Pilos and the poem reaches to Nestor's crew.
>FUCK YEAAHHHH LET'S GO NESTOR LET'S GOOOOOOOOO

[Anonymous No.19306159]

>>19300934
Not much to ask, but god bless. I appreciate all these recommendations for greek plays and tragedies.

[Anonymous No.19306688]

Herodotus and Thucydides before Plato? Most guides say so but is it really necessary?

[Anonymous No.19306693]

greaks

[Anonymous No.19306701]

>>19303767
I suspect much of it is pure fiction, I have only skim-read a few descriptions of his ideas (in typical /lit/ fashion), but I don't think you can really say anything with certainty about the details of Bronze Age Greece, not least that society was ruled by a queen who represented the triple goddess, with the king being constantly sacrificed and replaced until they eventually managed to 'convert' the queen into a chaste and subservient role. Seems to have far too much precision to be truly the result of objective study, that's why it feels like a carefully constructed fiction to me, probably as part of some overarching theory to do with this patriarchy/matriarchy conflict

>>19305377
Meaningless appeal to authority, you can just as easily find other 'authorities' who disagree:
>The Greek Myths has been heavily criticised both during and after the lifetime of the author. Critics have deprecated Graves's personal interpretations, which are, in the words of one of them, "either the greatest single contribution that has ever been made to the interpretation of Greek myth or else a farrago of cranky nonsense; I fear that it would be impossible to find any classical scholar who would agree with the former diagnosis". Graves's etymologies have been questioned, and his largely intuitive division between "true myth" and other sorts of story has been viewed as arbitrary, taking myths out of the context in which we now find them. The basic assumption that explaining mythology requires any "general hypothesis", whether Graves's or some other, has also been disputed.[7] The work has been called a compendium of misinterpretations.[8] Sibylle Him refers to Graves' "creative mishandling of the Greek myths."[9][page needed] Robin Hard called it "comprehensive and attractively written," but added that "the interpretive notes are of value only as a guide to the author's personal mythology".[10] The Disraeli scholar Michel Pharand replies that "Graves's theories and conclusions, outlandish as they seemed to his contemporaries (or may appear to us), were the result of careful observation."[11]

>Graves himself was well aware of scholarly mistrust of The Greek Myths. In a letter to Ava Gardner, he wrote:

>I am not a Greek scholar or an archaeologist or an anthropologist or a comparative mythologist, but I have a good nose and a sense of touch, and think I have connected a lot of mythical patterns which were not connected before, Classical faculties will hate me, and I will get a lot of sniffy reviews
And yes, this is all shamelessly from Wikipedia, problem?

[Anonymous No.19307851]

bump

[Anonymous No.19307891]

Should I read all of Euripides' work? It's pretty extensive and don't know where to begin.

[Anonymous No.19307915]

>>19307891
begin with Medea, stop whenever you want after that

[Anonymous No.19307950]

>>19302842
I think so. Herodotus is long and overwrought. It has really high highs and really low lows. Xenophon's Anabasis is fairly short and highly engaging. With Herodotus you don't know whether or not what you are reading is a blatant lie outside of obvious fantasy elements (on the other hand, this gives an idea of what an average person in the Classical era may have thought) while with Xenophon you are given a first-hand account of what a military campaign in Classical Greece is like.

>>19306159
Thanks

>>19307891
Definitely read Medea, The Bacchae, and The Phoenician Woman (with the last one, do it after reading Sophocles Oedipus Rex and Oedipus at Colonus and then follow it with Aescylus's Seven Against Thebes and Sophocles' Antigone)

>>19306688
Depends on how much you care about history / memoirs. A modern textbook on ancient Greece, with a section about the politics at the time of Plato / the classical era, would do you much better. Herodotus and Thucydides are great for people studying ancient history and/or anthropology. All three authors are great for people wishing to be writers, especially Herodotus.

[Anonymous No.19307982]

>>19307950
>With Herodotus you don't know whether or not what you are reading is a blatant lie outside of obvious fantasy elements

It's funny you should say that and praise Xenophon in the same breath. I love both authors, but the reputation of Xenophon's writings have declined very steadily once people realized he was being very selective with certain information and facts. But out of all his works that have been preserved Anabasis is probably the best one.

He's a very strange figure. He's not as good as historian as Herodotus/Thucydides and he's not as good philosopher as Plato.

[Anonymous No.19308044]

>Buy Iliad & Odyssey omnibus edition, never get around to reading it
>Friend asks to borrow it
>He's not really an avid reader and he definitely has never shown any interest in classic literature before
>He just heard it was good
>Lend it to him
>Reads it at a steady pace, mentions it pretty much every time we talk
>Each time he brings it up he mentions Diomedes more and more
>Pronounces his name "dee-oh-med"
>Obsessively relates all of Dimoedes' exploits to me, making me want to read it but I can't because he still is
>Finishes Odyssey, figure I'll be getting my book back soon
>He finds out Diomedes isn't in the Iliad, wants to know what happens to him
>Starts using University library database to dig up posthomerica so he read MORE about Diomedes

I just want my book back, man. I can't even start with the Greeks because my friend is fucking obsessed with Diomedes.

[Anonymous No.19308049]

>>19308044
I mixed up Iliad and Odyssey whoops

[Anonymous No.19308064]

>>19308044
Your book has gone to a better place

[Anonymous No.19308073]

>>19308064
I can't deny that he probably takes more earnest pleasure in reading it than I ever could. He doesn't go on /lit/, after all.

[Anonymous No.19308227]

>>19303510
>has one aristea written by Homer's 14 year old nephew
>omg so badassss
Achilles and Ajax were far superior, not to mention Odysseus actually won the fucking war

[Anonymous No.19308240]

So I have the Alexander Anabasis and Plutarch's Alexander, but I don't really know what Greece was like at that time aside from his exploits and such. Any recommendations? Even a documentary, all the Greek I've read has been about the mythology.

Speaking of, I've read Hamilton's Mythology, The Iliad, The Odyssey, a chunk of Euripedes (will be getting the complete collection soon and reading the rest) is there anything else I should read before diving into Alexander?

[Anonymous No.19308260]

>>19306701
i never said capt. graves was right, just to let him speak for himself, rather than someone who (say) uses 'problem?' in conversation. whether he agrees or not he'd be better off, as opposed to (say) using wikipedia, no?

[Anonymous No.19308261]

>>19300165
The parts of the Iliad where the gods magic away heroes is the lamest shit. The best parts are the conflict of Achilles against Agemennon and Zeus debating whether he should save Sarpedon. Everything is just capeshit tier

[Anonymous No.19308273]

>>19308261
>best parts
>not mentioning Achilles and Priam

[Anonymous No.19308528]

Are the Samuel Butler translations of Iliad/Odyssey as bad as leddit says? Should I get the Fagles ones as well and read those instead? I think I'll keep this edition too, the book is so pretty.

[Anonymous No.19308539]

>>19308273
>best parts
>not mentioning Diomedes kicking all the ass

[Anonymous No.19308573]

>>19308539
Diomedes is reddit as fuck

[Anonymous No.19308751]

>>19302842
Imo no but it's very good. Anabasis and helenica are much better than thucydides

[Anonymous No.19308758]

>>19302716
Iirc someone was working on one a few months ago
Stuff that was recommended included the song of Roland, two lives of Charlemagne, history of the kings of Britain, le morte de Arthur, etc

[Anonymous No.19308770]

>>19302842
No.

[Anonymous No.19308775]

>>19308240
Yes.
>Herodotus
>Thucydides
>Xenophon

[Anonymous No.19308778]

>>19308261
>not mentioning Nestor's "back in my day" and "if only I was young I'd do like I did X time" stories

[Anonymous No.19308786]

>>19308240
Diodorus book 16. You should appreciate Philip's achievements before moving on to Alexander.

[Anonymous No.19308792]

>>19308778
all the greeks arguing with each other bits

[Anonymous No.19309039]

>>19308227
Good point, but he avoided a disastrous defeat while Achilles wasn't fighting

[Anonymous No.19309159]

>>19308778
Kek, I just realized that Nestor is that boomer that comes up to you at the gym when you are benching and says stuff like "Back in my college football days I could bench 315. Yuuuup."

[Anonymous No.19309177]

>>19309159
one of homer's jokes is nestor consistently gives bad advice which agamemnon always adopts (whereas polydamas consistently gives good advice, which hector always rejects)

[Anonymous No.19309928]

>>19309177
>Nestor consistently gives bad advice
Is this true? Been a while since I've read but Nestor drove me fucking crazy with his self wanking bullshit

[Anonymous No.19309960]

>>19309928
Not true, he says to Agamemnon not to take Briseis from Achilles.

[Anonymous No.19310967]

bump

[Anonymous No.19312105]

>>19300165
Hey, fun thread. Hope we can get another down the line.
Bought a shitton of greek and latin books, some /lit/ and some /his/. Mostly because they were cheap as shit and the translations were good. The Aethiopica sounds cool, I wanna get to that

[Anonymous No.19312152]

>>19300891
hooyah

[Anonymous No.19313256]

>>19308758
Those are some good suggestions. I will probably just try and compile my own list. I might try and make a chart once im done reading all of them.

[Anonymous No.19313718]

>>19302716
A recommendation: make a new thread and have /lit/ compile a Late Antiquity / Early Medieval chart together.

[Anonymous No.19313728]

>>19313718
>>19302716
i saved you the trouble and made it

>>19313726

[Anonymous No.19313767]

>>19313718
check out the podcast Literature and History

[Anonymous No.19314739]

>>19300174
Achilles vs Hector was an outstanding fight. But how silly was Achilles to get killed by the coward Paris was ?
Achilles is rather an epitome of fidelity.

[Anonymous No.19315720]

>>19314739
>Achilles vs Hector
>fight

[Anonymous No.19315812]

>>19300174
The only fights were the ones that got irrelevant side characters killed. Every fight including one of the big shots had the character being swooped away by a god because he was at a disadvantage.
Actually now that I think about it, it was quite cool when they Diomedes stabbed Aphrodite and Ares, fuck those two. And the Achilles with Xanthus.

[Anonymous No.19315822]

>>19300174
When the spear guys through someone's head and he dangles off it like the stalk of a flower

[Anonymous No.19315836]

>>19303499
I haven't read it in full for a long time (probably a decade) but I enjoy dipping it into occasionally to read one life when I have a spare half-hour.

My favourites are the minor lives of people you otherwise wouldn't recognise.

Yesterday I read the life of Timoleon. He was a real hero who saved Syracuse (and by extension the rest of Sicily) for Greece, even though he was a Corinthian.

My favourite part is the life of Theseus, where he records how the Athenians saw the ghost of Theseus fighting with them at Marathon. Reminds me of the song Camouflage.

[Anonymous No.19315844]

>>19308573
He does fight with a god

[Anonymous No.19316764]

I'm the anon who read the lit starter kit, now working on this chart. I'll buy all the books and post a photo of the shelf when I do. I only own the two I've read and the Iliad and Odyssey for right now.

[Anonymous No.19317153]

>>19316764
Saved thanks. Surprised Euripedes isn't on there. Already read Iliad and Odyssey anyone know if the Trojan War: A New History is really necessary?

[Anonymous No.19317908]

>>19300165
Should I just read Xenophon? Greek philosophy bores me to tears, I want adventure.

[Anonymous No.19317924]

>>19306105
IS BROOKLYN IN THE HOUSE? LEMME HEAR YA SAY OOOWWWWW

[Anonymous No.19317964]

>>19317908
yes
>>19300934

[Anonymous No.19318287]

>>19305354
>Patroclus's kill, at least in the translation I've read was fucking metal.
>Patroclus gets bitch-slapped by Apollo SO HARD his shield and lance disintegrate
>some literal who stabs him but doesn't kill him
>then he gets no-scoped in the balls by Hector
and this is why I personally dislike Hector, who for the purpose of the story is meant to be "good" yet he gloats about killing Patroclus despite Apollo doing 3/4 the work.

[Anonymous No.19318309]

>>19318287
well he thought he killed achilles right since patroclus went out in his armor

[Anonymous No.19318315]

>>19318287
Hector had the highest kd ratio tho

[Anonymous No.19318340]

>>19305629
>The Catalogue of Ships is actually really interesting. It's kind of a roll call for the audience to hear their tribe. So when the rhapsode recites the poem and gets to some literal whos from Elis or Boeotia or whatever, it's the cue for the audience members from that area to make some noise and cheer for their supposed ancestors
I can't believe people didn't know that is what it was for. Same with how when it references when literal who's getting getting spears through their breasts.
>Spiros from Concretia kills Papadopoulos from Pedestria
>YEAHH FUCK THOSE PEDESTRIA NIGGERS CONCRETIA REPRESENT

[Anonymous No.19318399]

>>19300174
>Meges killed Pedaeus, Anterior's son, a bastard boy
>but lovely Theano nursed him with close, loving care
>like her own children, just to please her husband.
>Closing, Meges gave him some close attention too-
>the famous spearman struck behind his skull,
>just at the neck-cord, the razor spear slicing
>straight up through the jaws, cutting away the tongue-
>he sank in the dust, teeth clenching the cold bronze.
I just love the joke of the first four lines and the imagery of the last four lines. Fantastic.

[Anonymous No.19318409]

>>19318399
based Troyfag

[Anonymous No.19318519]

>>19300934
Wish I had a real life friend like you. It just sucks that I can’t talk to anyone about this stuff. Thanks for the suggestions :)

[Anonymous No.19318698]

Has anyone read Peter Green’s Iliad and Odyssey translations?

[Anonymous No.19318739]

>>19318698
no but I want to eventually. I hear they are accurate, but are they good?

[Anonymous No.19318794]

>>19317153
It's not necessary but it's short and I enjoyed it.

[Anonymous No.19318797]

>>19300174
Iliad is literally naruto tier.
The posters iliad threads attracts are the absolute proof

[Anonymous No.19318821]

>>19300891
You consider yourself a badass, but you are traumatized by your actions? Wow. You're just a fearful retard.

[Anonymous No.19319210]

>>19318797
Only Diomedes fags

[Anonymous No.19319401]

>>19300234
You start with the trial and death of socrates!

[Anonymous No.19319611]

can anyone tell me whos statue is this

[Anonymous No.19319669]

>>19319611
looks like Hadrian or Antoninus Pius

[Anonymous No.19319677]

What is the sexiest greek/roman statue?
I'm not much for buttcheeks mind you.

[Anonymous No.19319810]

>>19300293
you lost the war you pussy faggot against low iq rock dwellers you cunt bitch

[Anonymous No.19319814]

Finished Homer. Great decision, it was definitely worth it. Incredible how little there is in literature that Homer didn't invent.

I'm going for the tragedies now. I want some secondary stuff, but I don't want to go overboard with it. I'm thinking well-annotated editions with good background information and a lecture series for some overarching synthesis. What editions / lectures / maybe some overall discussion of tragedy in a single book do you recommend?

[Anonymous No.19319845]

>>19319814
semi-related but read gilgamesh

[Anonymous No.19320001]

>>19319845
Ok, I should've phrased it something like: "Incredible how little there is in literature that cannot already be found in Homer". And yeah, I'll definitely get to it, but I want to read something else than epic poetry right now.

[Anonymous No.19320261]

>>19300192
>I'd say so. It isn't complete, but so what?
I mean, it is very close to being a complete work though. There a few unfinished lines here and there but from what I have understood most scholars agree the the overall story was deemed to be finalized before Virgil's death.

[Anonymous No.19320289]

>>19300329
>Disregarding the possibility that Homer was a specific individual that just like Wilhelm and Jacob Grimm compiled and wrote down stories that up until then were only kept alive by an oral tradition.

[Anonymous No.19320299]

>>19300329
claiming homer isn't an individual is a monotheist cope for the fact that their bible's are all written by committee

[Anonymous No.19320802]

>>19320001
Code of Hammurabi... the oldest legal text we know of. Fucking crazy how you can tell how barbaric things used to be and now you see humans are organizing to codifying actual laws.

[Anonymous No.19320816]

>>19320802
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi#Laws
Holy fuck these laws are BASED

[Anonymous No.19320880]

>>19300271
this

[Anonymous No.19321654]

>>19300165
No stupid questions, please be kind. I read the Iliad and the Odyssey. Where am I supposed to read about the actual sack of Troy?

[Anonymous No.19321665]

I want to read the Illiad but I don't know any of the characters. Is there a primer I can read?

[Anonymous No.19321698]

>>19321654
I think the Aeneid is where the trojan horse comes from, but it’s roman not greek. I know there’s also a book which collects incomplete fragments of greek poems, but i’ve never read it. it’s called ‘Greek Epic Fragments’ from Loeb Classic Library, has a few on the Trojan Cycle.

[Anonymous No.19321719]

>>19300174
Achilles' slaughter in the river Scamander

[Anonymous No.19321819]

>>19321698
>I think the Aeneid is where the trojan horse comes from, but it’s roman not greek.
It's mentioned there but that is not where it is from.
>>19321654
The sack of Troy is covered in a lost work called "Iliupersis". We do not have the original text but we have second hand sources covering the content of it. If you have access to The Great Courses lectures about The Odyssey (yarrr), the professor there gives a great rundown on what you need to know about the events between The Iliad and The Odyssey

[Anonymous No.19321856]

>>19321819
>>19321654
>>19321698
>>19321819
I found the summarized transcript of the lecture I was thinking of:

The events following the Iliad were told in a series of epics, no longer extant, called the Epic Cycle. These included events that are directly referred to in the Odyssey.

A. The Aethiopis (five books) picked up the action immediately after the funeral of Hektor. This epic told of Achilles’ death.

B. The Little Iliad (four books) told of the after-effects of Achilles’ death and of the Sack of Troy.
1. Aias the Greater killed himself after the Greeks voted to award Achilles’ armor to Odysseus.
2. The Greeks built the Trojan Horse and used it to gain entry to Troy. This was Odysseus’ idea.

C. The Ilioupersis (two books) overlapped somewhat with the Little Iliad in telling the story of the Sack of Troy. It described several outrages committed by the Greeks during the Sack. These influenced subsequent events, including those in the Odyssey.
1. Achilles’ son Neoptolemos killed Priam at his household altar.
2. Astyanax (son of Hektor and Andromache) was thrown from the walls of Troy.
3. Aias the Lesser raped Priam’s daughter Kassandra in the temple of the goddess Athena, a major sacrilege.

D. The Nostoi or Returns (five books) told the story of the Greek warriors’ voyages homeward.
1. Agamemnon was killed by his wife Klytaimestra and her lover Aigisthos when he reached home.
2. Menelaos and Helen were driven off course and spent several years in Egypt, finally reaching Greece only in the eighth year after the Sack.
3. Aias the Lesser was drowned at sea for his sacrilege in the temple of Athena.

[Anonymous No.19322159]

I'm clueless on where to start. I read the Odyssey in French 3 years ago, and can't help but think it hindered my enjoyment. I also want to read the Greek plays but I feel like I'm dabbling in something that should have been part of my elementary education.

[Anonymous No.19322190]

>>19318698
I have a bone to pick with Peter Green even if his works and translations are quite thorough.

[Anonymous No.19322713]

>>19321654
The Posthomerica by Quintus, it fills the gaps between the Iliad and the Odyssey, including the sack of Troy

[Anonymous No.19322902]

>>19322713
The problem is Posthomerica is shit

[Anonymous No.19323104]

>>19321665
Bump.

[Anonymous No.19323116]

>>19321654
the aeneid covers it a little but the intro to my translation says aeneus was originally believed to be the guy who opened the gates to let the argives in which was a subtle fuck you by virgil, not sure what primary sources that was from tho

[Anonymous No.19323127]

>>19322159
just read 'em fuck it, if you haven't read oedipus, antigone and medea you missing out also read the frogs

[Anonymous No.19323147]

>>19320802
>132. If the finger have been pointed at the wife of a man because of another man, and she have not been taken in lying with another man, for her husband's sake she shall throw herself into the river.
142. If a woman hate her husband, and say: "thou shalt not have me," they shall inquire into her antecedents for her defects; and if she have been a careful mistress and been without reproach and her husband has been going about and greatly belittling her, that woman has no blame. She shall receive her dowry and go to her father's house.
>143. If she have not been a careful mistress, have gadded about, have neglected her house and have belittled her husband, they shall throw that woman into the water.
um based

[Anonymous No.19323289]

>>19322902
Rude

[Anonymous No.19323324]

What are some good books on the greek myths of constellations?

[Anonymous No.19323703]

>>19323147
sounds like you could escape justice by learning how to swim

[Anonymous No.19323733]

>>19300165
Currently reading Mythology by Edith Hamilton, plan on rereading the Odyssey after that, then Plato and Aristotle. I want to work my way up to the German idealists because I'm really interested in the hard problem of consciousness. I have a big interest in aesthetics and meaning even though those are really general.

[Anonymous No.19323816]

>>19323324
Bump for this
>>19323733
Don't skip the Iliad

[Anonymous No.19323962]

On a scale of 1-10 how Greek is the NT? (not in terms of language but content)

[Anonymous No.19323965]

>>19323962
1

[Anonymous No.19323972]

Is there a list of best translations out there? Mostly interested in the Homeric epics and Herodotus - is Tom Holland's new one any good?

[Anonymous No.19324000]

>>19322190
>I have a bone to pick with Peter Green
Why what's wrong with him?

[Anonymous No.19324052]

>>19323962
8 if you exclude all the crap inserted to make it cohesive with Judaism

[Anonymous No.19324102]

>>19323733
>no feeliad

[Anonymous No.19324113]

>>19322190
And I have a bone to pick with you faggot.

[Anonymous No.19324355]

>>19300165
Hey all,
What is the best collection / translation I can read for Hesiod?

[Anonymous No.19324440]

>>19300165
/lit/'s obsession over Greeks is unmatchable read Romans or whatever the hell you want. Just stop shitposting for God's sake...

[Anonymous No.19324605]

What are some good history books on early Greek history?
I'm currently reading The Peloponesian war and while it does an excellent job of explaining how the cities got to where they were from around the time prior to the Persian invasion I'm after something that reaches back further

[Anonymous No.19324614]

>>19324605
Early Greece by Oswyn Murray

[Anonymous No.19324766]

Any good defenses of Greek pederasty? Prefer only based authors

[Anonymous No.19324806]

>>19324113
Hello Professor Green. Don't you have a lecture or something to get back to?

>>19324000
Nothing wrong in particular. He exposed me to the fact that all academics are fart sniffing pretentious cunts. Like I said his translations are top notch but his essays are hardly ever objective (on Alexander of Macedon at least) even when he markets them as such. There's always a disdainful subtext, unwarranted judgement, weird inside jokes "haha amirite fellow academics haha, [insert long winded rant about Tarn here]" and weird leaps to illogical conclusions. His rhetoric infuriated me so much I poured over most of his 2nd hand sources (bibliography spanned 1/3 of the book, can't fault the man for being methodical) to check if his conclusions were sound. In my humble opinion, it seemed to me like he started with a preconceived point to prove (wrecking Tarn's brotherhood of man rhetoric) and he pulled from Plutarch, Diodorus, Curtius and Arrian without pointing out the heavy bias and uncertainty of each of the afore-mentioned "historians" (like leaning heavily on the mythical baby Caranus who with our current knowledge of child birth should not exist but he's a convenient drama sparking plot device in Plutarch's lives so what gives, throw him in this modern rebuttal of the great man theory).

Anyways, this rant got away from me lmao. His translations of the Illiad/Odyssey are highly rated so he's very competent.

[Anonymous No.19324808]

>>19324440
I would say the same about /his/' obsession with Rome. I come here to cleanse my palette of Rome shit and to lurk in Hellasboo threads. Fuck off.

[Anonymous No.19324817]

>>19324766
Lucian’s Amores
Corydon? by an Andre Gide
John Addington Symonds

[Anonymous No.19324822]

>>19324766
Also certain speeches in the Symposium, obviously. And there is a debate on the merits of homo and heterosexuality in Plutarch’s Amatorius (heterosexuality wins). Also there is a medieval text called ‘A debate between Ganymede and Helen’ (heterosexuality also wins, but homos get a fair fight).

[Anonymous No.19324832]

>>19300165
>IN any serious investigation of the essence of our art of today, we cannot make one step forward without being brought face to face with its intimate connection with the art of ancient Greece. For, in point of fact, our modern art is but one link in the artistic development of the whole of Europe; and this development found its starting point with the Greeks.
>Nothing could equal the sublime emotion with which the Agamemnon inspired me, and to the last word of the Eumenides I remained in an atmosphere so far removed from the present day that I have never since been really able to reconcile myself with modern literature.

[Anonymous No.19324836]

>Day – Night. –
>The Hellenes had a fine sense of the sanctity of night. The profoundest sense of it must have been revealed to those attending the great performances of the Oresteia of Aeschylus. This began in daylight: Agamemnon – complete human error – crime – desire. Afternoon: Electra – revenge – expiation – punishment. With the Eumenides dusk falls; at the end fully night: the young men escort the appeased, reconciled daemons of revenge in torchlight procession to their nocturnal place of rest. –
>Now the sanctity of the night feeling gives birth to playful merriment also: fauns and satyrs tease each other by torchlight, jocular dismay and disappointment – drunks scrambling for resting-place. The world lightly sheds its burdensome seriousness, and – peace becomes possible. – Here sleep – there death! –

[Anonymous No.19324850]

>>19324832
>Day – Night. –
>The Hellenes had a fine sense of the sanctity of night. The profoundest sense of it must have been revealed to those attending the great performances of the Oresteia of Aeschylus. This began in daylight: Agamemnon – complete human error – crime – desire. Afternoon: Electra – revenge – expiation – punishment. With the Eumenides dusk falls; at the end fully night: the young men escort the appeased, reconciled daemons of revenge in torchlight procession to their nocturnal place of rest. –
>Now the sanctity of the night feeling gives birth to playful merriment also: fauns and satyrs tease each other by torchlight, jocular dismay and disappointment – drunks scrambling for resting-place. The world lightly sheds its burdensome seriousness, and – peace becomes possible. – Here sleep – there death! –

[Anonymous No.19325067]

>>19324832
>>19324850
>ywn attend an original Greek performance of the Oresteia (satyr play included)

[Anonymous No.19325092]

>>19300234
Short dialogues like Charmides and Lysis

[Anonymous No.19325111]

I just read Iliad and Odyssey.
What do I read now? I want to read everything great from the Greeks.

[Anonymous No.19325287]

Could anyone recommend a book that is a collection of multiple ancient greek tales? Preferably something easy to read for a beginner like me.

[Anonymous No.19325400]

>>19300165
These stories would have originally been told orally so do they still make a good audiobook experience?
If anyone has both read and listened to them could you give me an opinion on which experience was better for homers epics (and maybe epic poetry in general)?

[Anonymous No.19325502]

>>19325111
The Histories, any of the famous plays or Plato

[Anonymous No.19325667]

So what secondary sources on Greek tragedy do you anons recommend? Which editions?

[Anonymous No.19326147]

>>19324850
>reconciled daemons of revenge
So were these daemons basically ghostly spirits that can be good or bad? People always point to the ancient philosophers' theorizing on them in some pseudo-psychological way (Plato, mainly), but it looks like the common person probably saw them as almost like animist nature spirits.

[Anonymous No.19326153]

I'm halfway through Edith Hamilton's Mythology. It's pretty good.

[Anonymous No.19326594]

>>19325400
Bumping for this.

[Anonymous No.19326704]

>>19325400
You probably want to read it the first time you, uh, read it. Otherwise you might find yourself rewinding a lot.

[Anonymous No.19326927]

>>19300165
I could not get through Edith Hamiltons Mythology, she seemed to just suck the absolute life out of ancient Greece. Instead I read The Greek Experience by Cecil Maurice Bowra and "The Greeks" By H.D.F. Kitto. They wrote with such passion and love for the era it couldnt help but make me utterly interested, wheres as Edith was so try, boring and technical.

I've read the Iliad, and absolutely loved it. I read the original penguin classics version however. I think I'm going to read the Fagles version of it as most anons here think it's the best version, then should I move on to the Odyssey?

[Anonymous No.19326967]

>>19325287
Edith Hamilton's Mythology

[Anonymous No.19326972]

>>19326927
>then should I move on to the Odyssey?
yes

[Anonymous No.19327386]

>>19326147
It's referring to the Furies and the Athenians and Athena abating their rage by offering them a special place in the city, and leading them to their underground place where they will be honoured. So in this sense daemons is just literally accurate I think, because the Furies, although daughters of Nox, are not really treated as goddesses in the full sense, but as hateful, noxious spirits, scourge of both men and gods while not quite being either one

[Anonymous No.19327910]

>>19321654
Trojan War by Barry Strauss covers a good part of it.

[Anonymous No.19328805]

can anyone recommend the best books on greek numismatics?

[Anonymous No.19328946]

>>19323324
Bump for this again

[Anonymous No.19328987]

>>19324806
>His translations of the Illiad/Odyssey are highly rated so he's very competent
Good to know (I was the anon that asked originally if anyone had read him)
I was given his translations as a gift by my mother, although I already own the Fagles translations. I may read them both side-by-side, since I’m terrible at reading verse/poetry and comparing the two translations may help me develop that

[Anonymous No.19329037]

>>19323324
>>19323816
>>19328946
Not a perfect answer, but many of Ovid's retellings in the Metamorphoses end in the characters being turned into constellations (as in the case of the story of Callisto and Arcus / Ursa Major and Minor)

[Anonymous No.19329710]

bump

[Anonymous No.19329711]

How do I start on Greek history?

[Anonymous No.19329757]

>>19329711
For primarcy sources go Herodotus, Thucydides then Xenophon. Then add Plutarch.

After that try finding a modern book on Greek history, something like Robin Waterfield' Creaters, Conquerirs & Citizens for example

[Anonymous No.19330044]

this dude's speaking style is kinda ass but u should still peep this lecture series if u into greece

https://oyc.yale.edu/classics/clcv-205?qt-course=2#qt-course

[Anonymous No.19330333]

>>19329037
Thanks anon, much appreciated

[Anonymous No.19331153]

>>19319611
looks like Hadrian who was gay so that wench is disgracing him

unless he was bi

[Anonymous No.19331159]

>>19321698
kek is that lenin

[Anonymous No.19331195]

Praise the anon who recommended this to me. im on chapter 4 its feeling pretty comfy.

[Anonymous No.19331285]

>>19300165
Theseus was pretty cool, but Idomeneus has my favorite passage in the Iliad.
>>19300174
Pic related

[Anonymous No.19332869]

bump

[Anonymous No.19333216]

Are there any archives of lectures for Greek philosophy? Stanford had one for the Hebrew Bible and that was excellent

[Anonymous No.19334423]

>>19321665
Bump again.

[Anonymous No.19334427]

>>19318340
I'm reading the Iliad now, and I found book 2 extremely fucking dull because of this list. Your description of people from each place making noise was how I got through each verse mentally without skipping anything.

[Anonymous No.19334682]

>>19300192
Its theolepsy
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/theolepsy

[Anonymous No.19334715]

>>19334682
based, thank you anon

[Anonymous No.19334724]

what do you dudes think of https://antigonejournal.com/

[Anonymous No.19335745]

About to read Achilles in Vietnam, looks fascinating.

[Anonymous No.19335937]

>>19300165
I read Iliad like two years ago but dropped half way. Should I restart?

[Anonymous No.19336057]

>>19300165
Recommend me some starter Greek philosophy, I've only read the Symposium.

[Anonymous No.19336077]

>>19335937
Yes

[Anonymous No.19336381]

>>19321665
You don't need to know any of the characters before reading it, maybe the main gods if you don't already

[Anonymous No.19337911]

BUMP FOR GREECE!!!!!

[Anonymous No.19338743]

>>19321665
Look up the judgement of Paris and you are good.

[Anonymous No.19338747]

>>19331285
damn he roasted the mfer

[Anonymous No.19338790]

what do i need to learn to read heraclitus in the original language?? i want to get the full expierence

[Anonymous No.19339461]

>>19338790
french

[Anonymous No.19340579]

bump

[Anonymous No.19341743]

>>19327910
Good book, liking it so far.

[Anonymous No.19343172]

.