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/lit/ - Literature

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19264663 No.19264663 [Reply] [Original]

Thomas Mann is peak literature. How can people consider Dostoevsky's books the staple of philosophical fiction when much denser works such as The Magic Mountain and Doctor Faustus exist?

>> No.19265392

>Magic Mountain
>Death in Venice

Loved MM. which should I read next bros?
I agree OP dosto is too turgid but maybe Mann is not as big because he is so gay?

>> No.19265405

>>19265392
Is dostoevsky even bigger than mann? I live in germany so its hard to judge

>> No.19265426

>>19265405
In the USA dosto is the most popular Russian along with Tolstoy, I hadn’t heard of Mann till I came to lit

>> No.19265454

>>19265405
Considerably so where I live. Dostoevsky’s books are more plot-oriented so they’re much more accessible. I also have no idea what Mann’s prose and his choice of vocabulary are like in German, but translations here (romance lang) use plenty of quite unusual words in most pages. I’d like to think my vocabulary is decent, yet I still come across new terms on every chapter. His books are more demanding in every way I think

>> No.19265528
File: 585 KB, 1698x2400, 18617454932.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
19265528

Copped pic related recently. Also have "Death In Venice and Seven Other Stories". Wondering where a good starting point is for Mann. Thanks
>>19265405
Yeah not even close for USA

>> No.19265562

Whats the best translation for Mann?

>> No.19265568

>>19265562
The trash can

>> No.19265579

>>19265562
David Luke I think?
>>19265528
>Death In Venice and Seven Other Stories
HT Lowe-Porter is a bit bowdlerized unfortunately

>> No.19265581

>>19265562
The garbage bin. Boring af writer. Only idiots fall for the Proust and Mann meme. Read Tolstoy and Dostoevsky

>> No.19265589

>>19265581
>mentioning Proust in the same sentence as Mann
absolute heresy
also I assume you are quite young

>> No.19265591

>book has a kino cover
>but it's the worse translation available

im a vain and weak man apparently.

>> No.19265611

>>19265581
>here’s the sperg shoehorning Proust into every post because he craves attention
We get it: you haven’t read Proust, but seek (You)s. I hope someone slits your throat.

>> No.19265614
File: 105 KB, 810x1080, thomas_mann__death_in_venice_a_1595851639_1aef525f_progressive.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
19265614

>>19265579
No way. That's who translated my Magic Mountain edition too
>>19265591
What are you referring to? I have a copy that looks almost exactly like >>19265528 and then pic related

>> No.19265619

>>19265589
It's a houellebecq reference lol don't get so mad. And yes I'm 21, most people here are young. If you're 40+ and still here, I mean you're welcome but it's unusual to see someone so old here.

>> No.19265629

>>19265619
Hell yeah good joke. I also love being young and not knowing anything about literature

>> No.19265632
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19265632

>>19265619
>I mean you're welcome but it's unusual to see someone so old here
Do you not realise that you are the one who is being welcomed?
Some of us were here when you were literally going to kindergarten.

>> No.19265648

>>19265629
>>19265632
I've been here a while too. And I have read 203 books, been reading serious lit since I was 14. I read in 3 different languages. Probably not as much as you 40 year old virgin autists though.

>> No.19265649

>>19265632
that’s really sad

>> No.19265654

>>19265649
Wasting your youth is much sadder than wasting your adulthood.

>> No.19265659
File: 304 KB, 736x1181, u1_978-3-10-348128-0.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
19265659

>>19264663
I feel like he should have stopped after finishing MM, almost everything he wrote afterwards feels like either an ego project leaning into his weak points (Joseph and his Brothers) or hamfisted political didacticism (Mario and the Magician, Doctor Faustus).

>> No.19265660

>>19265648
>203
Lmaoooo incredibly unimpressive. You’re only allowed to post as if we should take you seriously when you reach at minimum 500-read books.

>> No.19265671

>>19265660
I usually buy LoA and Everyman editions that usually have 2-5 novels in a single volume and that's 203 books on goodreads. I don't log any poetry or non fiction on there. I have read Mann. Haven't read Proust.

>> No.19265675

>>19264663
Wow when did Imre Nagy lose weight? He's looking good.

>> No.19265692

>>19265675
>Imre Nagy

http://mandiner.hu/cikk/20181015_sebes_gabor_rovid_kurzus_nagy_imrerol

>> No.19265701

>>19264663
I'd be lying if I said Mann's books don't ever get boring for me. He goes off on way too many tangents, especially on Doctor Faustus where he (or Serenus) apologizes for digressing every 4 pages. Descriptions feel endless at times. He had no shame of going into encyclopedia-mode about random topics, such as the anatomy of cnadarians, and I have to be very focused to follow some stuff he spergs out about, especially if it does not interest me. It's not a laid-back read

But the nice thing about his books is that there are always moments of extreme reward, almost catharsis, if you push through the hard, dry bits. Makes them worth the energy you have to put into them

>> No.19265730

Mann unironically ruined all other prose for me.
He just makes everyone else look like an amateur.

>> No.19266269

>>19265671
You're a /lit/let, it's fine, just keep your mouth shut and lurk until you know what you're talking about

>> No.19266377

N

>> No.19266457

>>19265701
>He had no shame of going into encyclopedia-mode about random topics,
That's one of my favorite things about him, the way he subjects artificial or cultural objects to a naturalist's kind of scrutiny. He even endows his hero Castorp with a similarly diffuse curiosity about everything under the sun.

>> No.19266468

>>19265619
Can you stop embarassing us infront of the oldfags, you fucking retard?

>> No.19268107

What's his best work?

>> No.19268152

>>19264663
How were you not bored to death by the italian/jesuits arguments? Settembrini was fine before he ever met Naphta.

A german here warned me against Mann which was totally unwarranted with regard to Buddenbrooks but parts of the Magic Mountain were certainly more magical than others.

>> No.19268157

>>19268107
Doctor Faustus

>> No.19268165

The greatest Brazilian writer of all time,
Thomas Mann da Silva

>> No.19268293

>>19265589
True, but only if mentioning Mann with jew trash got you worked up

>> No.19268311

It's absolutely insane that Mann published a work as good as Buddenbrooks when he was only 26.

>> No.19268331

>>19265619
this anon was 15 in 2016

nuke /lit/ now

>> No.19268400

>>19268311
There's hope for us all

>> No.19268505

>the human biology chapter
>the sickly jk daughterfu chapter ending
>the spiraling debates between naphta and settembrini
Kino in the true sense of the word

>> No.19268533

>>19268505
Spiraling? Come on dogg

>> No.19268558

>>19265701
>>19266457
IS it on the same level as Melville in Moby Dick? Where every long digression is only a golden strand of prose more finely spun because it shows a real passion for the natural world?

>> No.19268587

I recently finished Death in Venice and wanted to ask you guys what you thought the significance of Aschenbach's repressed homosexuality was. One might take it literally, at which point the whole of the story is essentially a detailing of the anguish a closeted homosexual experiences following some sexual reawakening or mid-life crisis; but that interpretation would seem to ignore entirely the themes of artistry and sensuality-vs-intellect present throughout the rest of the work, which make me wonder if it isn't a vehicle for something else (his fading youth, for instance). I've deliberately been avoiding literature on the subject because I'd like to form my own conclusions on it, but I'd love to hear your guys' opinions on it.

>> No.19268866

>>19268587
I'd say that it's not one or the other anon. They're organically connected. Longing for beauty, the artist's vocation, the bohemian vs the bourgeois, the battle between Apollonian and Dionysian, and homoerotic sublimation are recurring themes in Mann's work.

>> No.19268992

>>19268587
Mann wrote about wanting to fuck his own son. 3 of his kids were gay too. I know that’s a surface level observation but the story is very much commenting on his own homosexuality

>> No.19269008

>>19268992
Latent homosexuality is the key to being a great writer. If you've never had to suppress the urge to suck cock you're ngmi.

>> No.19269009

>>19265648
>203 books
Wow good fucking job anon. Bet you've done the usual noobish reading of Camus, Hemingway, Dostoevsky, etc. And after you read what I wrote you might think you need to dig up some obscure Persian symbolist poet who copied Maeterlinck to establish your credibility, as if reading obscure literary writers establishes credibility in the way that record collecting did for noughties hipsters. This is too genuine seeming to be bait. I genuinely feel sorry for you. Read books written in your native language extensively for about 5-10 years and then come back here and then you might actually have something valuable to contribute to lit. Seriously. If there is one board where you must lurk moar before posting this is definitely one of them, though do read moar instead.

>> No.19269613

>>19268992
I read Confessions of Felix Krull recently and I was surprised just how much you can feel Mann's homosexuality underlying everything. For example in the tryst with the woman at the hotel (the novelist woman who is married to the rich bloke), when she goes on about adoring young men, she's so much a stand-in for Mann it's ridiculous. Heterosexual women don't want to obsess endlessly about the physical beauty of young men, they want young men to obsess endlessly about the physical beauty of THEM.

>>19269008
>Latent homosexuality is the key to being a great writer.
It's true that a homosexual feels himself, to a certain extent, as an outsider, and that can give him added perspective. But it's hard to like someone quite as faggotish as Mann. I know his deepest instincts are not part of the same current of life as mine. How can I trust what he says?

>> No.19269700

Mann's prose is far more poetic and he is better at incorporating different technical and philosophical materials into his novels, but Dostoevsky has the charm of an epileptic drunkard who wrote to pay back his gambling debts. His novels are messy and drawn out and they keep making me come back to them, because the moments of lucidity among the misery and the chaos are just so striking.
I wish I was Alyosha, bros.

>> No.19269710

>>19269700
Most people on /lit/ think they're Ivan, but I think if we're honest with ourselves we're Smerdyakov. Though we should all strive to be Alyosha.

>> No.19269724

Another protestant fag going on and on about his love for dudebros, nice houses and whatever his autistic temper deems interesting. It's all so tiresome.

>> No.19269728

>>19269710
I don't think most people on /lit/ are quite as destructive as Smerdyakov. Although the annoying smart-alec sophistry he goes in for (arguing about where the light was before the sun and moon, or the split-second timing of renouncing faith, and so on) is very /lit/.

>> No.19269806

>>19265659
Felix Krull is giga-based. Not finished, but fucking hilarious. The retro tv show also gives it quite a good ending.

>>19265454
I don't think it's so much impossible vocabulary, but he goes all in on the fucked up German sentence structure thing.

>> No.19269821

>>19269008
but people in the first world are not motivated to suppress homosexual urges anymore. i guess that means that to be a great writer at this point you have to be a pedo

>> No.19269878

I love telling midwits that Magic Mountain is my favourite book in order to see they ask “ooh, is that a fantasy novel, like game of thrones?”

>> No.19269930

always hear lit talking about Magic Mountain and Faustus but what about Buddenbrooks? is it impossible for non germans to catch the drift of it? Its by far the most famous and most liked book in Germany by Mann and I do agree on this with my fellow germans.

>> No.19270023

>>19265730
You should read more books then, m8.

>> No.19270026

>>19269878
I love when I hear midwits tell me their favorite book is Magic Mountain, and I just ask if they just started reading literature.

>> No.19270098

>>19269930
I adore Buddenbrooks and don’t feel like I missed anything in particular, but then if there’s a unique cultural layer to it that’s invisible to foreigners, how could I possibly tell? Besides, I am swedish, and do feel like Mann comes as close to Sweden as any german could. We both gaze longingly at the same cold sea.

>> No.19270323

>>19270026
wow, what a contrarian.. please elaborate how Magic Mountain can't be someone's personal favourite even amongst other great books

>> No.19270789

>>19269613
>I know his deepest instincts are not part of the same current of life as mine. How can I trust what he says?
what are you on about