Góngora>Quevedo

[Anonymous No.19229257]

Góngora basically invented a new poetic language. You can speak of poetry in Spanish before and after Góngora. His work didn't only create the Generación del 27 (all of them were imitating him), he gratly influenced the modernists. For example, this verse from one of his sonnets:
>¿Cuál del Ganges marfil, o cuál de Paro
This is basically Salvador Rueda and Rubén Darío before they were born. The style of the Soledades predates Mallarmé (who read him presumably). Meanwhile, conceptism died with the baroque basically, although KEVIN's poems have a clear conceptist influence.
Some scholars argue that Góngora didn't invent culteranism, but even, culteranism is derived from conceptism, it's a big innovation from the previous forms of the baroque. Besides that, his genius was so supreme that the lack of a fixed concept and his focus on sensitivity did not rest his poems from expressing highly rational ideas. For example, when recalling the birth of Jesus:
>No fue esta más hazaña, oh gran Dios mío,
Del tiempo por haber la helada ofensa
Vencido en flaca edad con pecho fuerte

(Que más fue sudar sangre que haber frío),
Sino porque hay distancia más inmensa
De Dios a hombre, que de hombre a muerte.

This fragment of the sonnet both exalts the mystery of the incarnation while giving an incredibly succinct philosophical account of death and the vanity of human life.

tldr; Góngora is a monster, a titan, a colossus. Quevedofags can suck my dick right now.
>b-but muh cryptojew... but le funny nose poem
No.

[Anonymous No.19229272]

>tfw my Spanish will never be good enough for me to take a side in this debate

[࿇ C Œ M G E N V S ࿇ !KNDY/Ar.iI No.19229316]

EXCELENTE ARGUMENTACIÓN, LA CUAL YO CONFUTARÍA SI ESTUVIERA ESCRITA EN † • L A • L E N G U A • †; QUÉ PENA; AHÍ PARA LA OTRA.

[Anonymous No.19229466]

>>19229316
KEVIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIN RESPONDE HIJO DE PVTAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[Anonymous No.19229479]

>>19229257
>The style of the Soledades predates Mallarmé (who read him presumably).
Based Reyes reader. If you didn't get this based either way.
I agree. Góngora is unmatched. I have never found anyone else like him in any other tradition. The only person who is comparable to him is Joyce: both of them felt their language was not enough, as Borges put it.

[Anonymous No.19229485]

>>19229479
>get this based either way.
Get this from Reyes*
Also: what book do you recommend me of Rueda's?

[Anonymous No.19229946]

>>19229272
Don't worry anon, I'm spanish but neither will I. He's just too good

[Anonymous No.19230096]

>>19229466
Kek

[Anonymous No.19230141]

>>19229257
nigger
calderon de la barca > gongroroa uqevedo

[Anonymous No.19230150]

>Menos solicitó veloz saeta
>Destinada señal, que mordió aguda;
>Agonal carro en la arena muda
>No coronó con más silencio meta,

>Que presurosa corre, que secreta,
>A su fin nuestra edad. A quien lo duda
>(Fiera que sea de razón desnuda)
>Cada sol repetido es un cometa.

>Confiésalo Cartago, ¿y tú lo ignoras?
>Peligro corres, Licio, si porfías
>En seguir sombras y abrazar engaños.

>Mal te perdonarán a ti las horas,
>Las horas que limando están los días,
>Los días que royendo están los años.

Góngora is one of the best poets to have ever lived and I will fight anyone who disagrees.
It's a shame that he is basically untranslatable and barely no non-native speakers reach a high enough language level to read him comfortably.

[Anonymous No.19230385]

>>19230150
Can you explain why he is untranslateable? And what did he change that even most native speakers can't read him well? I'm actually curious.

[Anonymous No.19230435]

>>19230385
>>19230150
I'm not Spanish but I'm quite decent at it.
This porm seems pretty good, I can sort of make out the soul behind it, but somehow I just can't reach the full meaning of the words when taken together. This is very odd.

I do think Anglos have on of the weakest literary traditions, and this is yet another proof; latin-derived languages are simply so superior they just eclipse everything an American or Brit ever wrote.

[Anonymous No.19230570]

>>19230385
>>19230435
I can try and explain with another poem on why he is so good and so difficult to understand even for natives.
The difficulty comes from different places, he uses a great deal of references towards classical poetry, mythology and classical culture, those are difficult for everyone, Spanish-speaking or not, and some of his poems are notoriously obscure in his references and metaphores.
He also uses archaisms and changes the meaning of the words to reflect on their ethymological origin some times, I can provide a great example later (when he says Licio in the other poem he means Luis, he is talking to himself, Licio is the archaic form).
And there are many aliterations and anastrophes that lose their meaning in translations. They are also difficult for natives because of how convoluted some of his verses can become.

I will post an example on the difficulty because of his classical references now:
This is the start of the Soledades, I will only post the English translation and try and explain.

>It was the flowery season of the year
Easy to get, he is talking about spring.
>In which Europa’s perjured robber strays
A reference to the metamorphosis of Zeus into a white bull to kidnap Europa, the less experienced readers will get lost on the second line.
>-Whose brow the arms of the half-moon adorn,
The half moon are the bull's horns, also easy to get.
>The sun the shining armour of his hide-
This is a more complicated reference. He settled the time reference in spring and talked about a bull. We see in later lines that the bull is celestial, he is in the sky, so it's the constellation of Taurus. Taurus is the zodiac symbol that goes from the 19th of April to the 20th of May, and when the zodiac sign is dominant that is because the sun is passing through it (paradoxically it isn't visible in the night sky at that time of the year), so he is saying that the sun rays pass through the constellation appearing as the hide of the bull. He further settles the time of the poem, we are not only in spring, but we are exactly from the 19th of April to the 20th of May.
He has not said anything yet, just some beautifully crafted classical and astrological references and yet many readers are presumably already lost.
>Through sapphire fields to feast on stellar corn,
Settles the reference to the bull in the sky, Taurus.
.....................................

[Anonymous No.19230575]

>>19230570
>When, fitter cupbearer than Ganymede
Now appears the main character of the poem (which follows an epic structure), a boy fitter than Ganymedes to be Zeus cupbearer, meaning a more beautiful ephebe. See Ganymedes myth for reference.
Also, in the original Spanish Ganymedes is not mentioned, he says literally the "garzón de Ida", garzón is an archaism to mean a cupbearer (where French garçon comes from), most Spanish speakers today won't know the meanign of this word; and Ida was the caretaker of Zeus when he was young. Very obscure reference making it even harder to follow.
>For Jupiter, the lovesick boy gave tears
In Spanish it says "Lagrimosas de amor dulces querellas", a more complicated structure and word order (more elegant and beautiful too)
>(Absent, disdained and shipwrecked) to the tide
>And winds, which moved by his complaining lays
>As to a second Arion’s harp gave heed.
A reference to Arion's myth, a singer who got saved by dolphins because of his beatuiful singing when he was thrown into the sea. See the myth for reference.
This last part is also very convoluted in Spanish becuase of the weird word order and vocabulary used. So you have to pair the obscure mythological references (Ida, Arion, the astrological references, etc.) with the archaic choice of words and the constant anastrophes, and hte poem hasn't even started yet.

I can provide other examples later if anyone is interested. There are much more complicated poems of his.

[Anonymous No.19230609]

>>19230575
Do go on, the allusions don't seem that difficult but I can't comment on the original
Is there a translation which retains any of the charm? What would you recommend
Also I hear it said that Gongora was the first to compose poetry "imitating the speech of blacks", do you recall such a piece

[Anonymous No.19230624]

>>19230570
I don't think most of those mythological references are hard at all, unless you're a freshman in college.
Who the fuck doesn't know about the myth of Europa, or Ganymede? Jej
It's the structure, syntax and imagery that make these poems hard above all else. Even then, I'd argue there are better poets.
Hell, look at Luis de Camões over the border - a little earlier, but a step above Gongora in the use of myth, influence over his country's language and the sheer scale of his work

[Anonymous No.19230686]

>>19230570
Thanks! Good to know! A great poet for sure!

[Anonymous No.19230696]

>>19230609
>>19230624
I wasn't aware of that, a google search gave me this result, you can check it out if you can read Spanish https://cvc.cervantes.es/literatura/aispi/pdf/07/07_293.pdf
It basically says that the poems 174 and 175 do imitate the negro speech yes, but that Portuguese writers did it first.
I don't know anything of translations of his works, sorry.
A more complex poem of his would be De la Toma de Larache if you want to check it out. I couldn't find it translated but here it is in Spanish.
I can attest that a wide majority of cultured Spanish speakers wouldn't get this poem, both because of the chained metaphors and the fact that it alludes to a lesser known historical episode.

En roscas de cristal serpiente breve,
por la arena desnuda el Luco yerra,
el Luco, que, con lengua al fin vibrante,
si no niega el tributo, intima guerra
al mar, que el nombre con razón le bebe
y las faldas besar le hace de Atlante.
De esta, pues, siempre abierta, siempre hiante
y siempre armada boca,
cual dos colmillos, de una y de otra roca,
África (o ya sean cuernos de su luna
o ya de su elefante sean colmillos)
ofrece al gran Filipo los castillos
(carga hasta aquí, de hoy más militar pompa);
y del fiero animal hecha la trompa
clarín ya de la Fama, oye la cuna,
la tumba ve del Sol, señas de España
los muros coronar que el Luco baña.

It goes on, this is just the first part. I could try to translate it, but it would probably be a literary disaster.

[Anonymous No.19230706]

>>19229257
Fuck that jewish fella desu. Quevedo for life.

[Anonymous No.19230732]

>>19230141
>gongroroa uqevedo
my favorite one piece character

[Anonymous No.19231077]

>>19229257
Góngora was a talented rhetorician and a decent poet.
Quevedo was a great poet.

>new poetic language

All poets do that, if they are poets.

>before and after Góngora

Not really.

>all of them were imitating him

That's so reductionistic it's laughable. By that logic I could say Góngora was imitating Petrarca.

>This is basically Salvador Rueda and Rubén Darío before they were born

Why exactly?

>The style of the Soledades predates Mallarmé

Lots of things predates Mallarmé.
Are you say, though, that he was doing what Mallarmé was doing, but ~200 years earlier? How so?

[Anonymous No.19231088]

>>19229257
>new poetic language

All poets do that, if they are poets.

>before and after Góngora

Not really, only in a trivial sense which could also apply to Quevedo and others.

>all of them were imitating him

That's so reductionistic it's laughable. By that logic I could say Góngora was imitating Petrarca, and with a lot more reason to my arguments. How, for instance, is that Whitmanian strain in that generation an imitation of Góngora?

>This is basically Salvador Rueda and Rubén Darío before they were born

Why exactly?

>The style of the Soledades predates Mallarmé

Lots of things predates Mallarmé.
Are you saying, though, that he was doing what Mallarmé was doing, but ~200 years earlier? How so?

Your post is a lot of nonsense with no base on reality. Just a bunch of bold claims with very weak reasoning.