/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.19207484]

Buddha had stated that the reason why man feels suffering is because he get attached. He connected to his cycle of desires again and again and eventually he feels suffer.

But Cioran goes further. He had stated that the reason why we desaring something is because we are having consciousness in this world. What i mean by consciousness is a mental state that makes human trully aware who he is and what things as they are.

We aware of our own shadow and tragedy in this world. It what makes suffer.

We can have consciousness only because we were being born before.

The prima causa of samsara or despair is being born.

[Anonymous No.19207525]

Irrefutable

[Anonymous No.19207544]

>>19207484
Can't argue with this one

[Anonymous No.19207638]

>>19207484
but the buddha he did and you can achieve freedom from suffering, so what happens then? He stopped being conscious?

[Anonymous No.19207711]

>>19207638
Buddhists cope by saying that enlightenment is the end of all desires. But the so called enlightened beings eat, drink, piss and shit. And to support their life style a lot of proles work of their asses without that financial support they would die. So desire is certainly there.

[Anonymous No.19209200]

>>19207484
>We aware of our own shadow and tragedy in this world. It what makes suffer.
Why does this awareness necessarily cause suffering?

[Anonymous No.19209284]

>>19209200
Awareness that disease, decay and death are inevitable parts of existence. The people you love will perish, the things you like will perish, the goals you perish will perish etc. Awarenesses of the tragedy of your birth like you were thrown into pain with the process totally out of your control and doom to worry, work, turmoil, suffer and then dumbly rot few feet's beneath the surface. At least there was mystery in world before science but now it's over.

[Anonymous No.19209292]

>>19207484
I feel truly sorry for all Materialists

[Anonymous No.19209309]

>>19207711
>But the so called enlightened beings eat, drink, piss and shit. And to support their life style a lot of proles work of their asses without that financial support they would die
Buddhist communities were for most of history self sustained, retard

[Anonymous No.19209310]

>>19207484
Samsara is the cycle of death and rebirth so your conclusion amounts to saying the cause of being born is being born. I'm not sure you've read either source you talk about, but this is /lit/ so you probably didn't.

[Anonymous No.19209325]

>>19209309
>self sustained
Like they were growing bricks, clothing, plates etc. out of their asses? Also isn't begging an essential part of monk practices?

[Anonymous No.19209326]

The only way to reach "Nirvana" or whatever you want to call it, is to die and disappear into oblivion for eternity.

[Anonymous No.19209337]

>>19209284
But that only occurs if you are attached to the forms that come and go. If you are not, then the coming and going of conditioned existences will be just as insignificant as seeing a flowing river. Which further proves that it is attachment that breeds despair, not consciousness.

[Anonymous No.19209358]

>>19209337
>if you are attached
Only monks, whores, bums and criminals have the attitude of indifference towards world and this shit is impossible if you live with in the normative structure of societies and a man with this attitude wouldn't even live in society in the first place. It is doubtful that even these people are fully indifferent because they still posses memory. You come into this this fucking word without your consent, they give you the wretched curse of the Self along with comes all the fucking baggage and then you have you spend rest of your life in seclusion to undo this wretched curse, to go back towards like the state of a monke.

[Anonymous No.19209369]

>>19207484
Why do modernists only look at what they think man is through empiricism and not what man 'ought' to be?

[Anonymous No.19209386]

>>19209369
What is man ought be if not a rotten corpse?

[Anonymous No.19209393]

>>19209325
>Like they were growing bricks, clothing, plates etc. out of their asses?
No, you make them with your hands.

[Anonymous No.19209409]

>>19209393
So Dalai Lama has built all the planes and cars in which he travels with Hollywood celebrities?
Monks still begged for their food even if one can believe that they magically produced everything from bricks to robes to food that they ate.

[Anonymous No.19209441]

>>19209386
Someone that creates beauty and practices tempered reason. If you want to reduce him to biomass when hes dead then you're inserting a nihilistic presumption thats drastically opposed to the practical reality of human spirit.

[Anonymous No.19209445]

>>19209441
Then most religions are nihilistic if that's the case.

[Anonymous No.19209486]

>>19209441
>practical reality of human spirit.
Please demonstrate the "practical reality" of spirit

[Anonymous No.19209571]

>>19209445
Yes if you look it with modern linguistic inerpretation. Whether somebodies 'God' literally does some magical feat is largely irrelevant if you look at the value and progression of human ingenuity using religious pretexts in language.

>>19209486
Whether you believe so or not, humans have created beauty and inspired meaning far beyond our narrow understanding of material form.


>For Nature knows nothing of pro and con. Everywhere, wherever life is actual, reigns an inward organic logic, an "it," a drive, that is utterly independent of waking-being, with its causal linkages, and indeed not even observed by it. The abundant proliferation of primitive peoples is a natural phenomenon, which is not even thought about, still less judged as to its utility or the reverse. When reasons have to be put forward at all in a question of life, life itself has become questionable.

[Anonymous No.19209587]

>>19209571
>created beauty and inspired meaning far beyond our narrow understanding of material form.
Isn't all beauty a working of material forms to be aesthetically pleasing? How does that demonstrate an incorporeal spirit is at work?

[Anonymous No.19209602]

>>19209571
>Whether you believe so or not, humans have created beauty
Yeah like the Rape of Nankin, Bengal famine, Holocaust, Holodomor, WW2 and Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki etc. all with in almost a decade.

[Anonymous No.19209650]

>>19209587
As ive said before its largely a linguistic misinterpretation; the religious contexts of older civilizations were inseprable to the way we even discussed reason and conciousness. Even discussing our personal opinions or our "conciousness" seperate from the physical form, can be connected to the shift in language from a shared "mythical" understanding of specific social and external natural phenomena to one that had to become a mediator of trade between different groups. For example; an ancient clan of peoples who lived in an area where they struggled with wolves eating children would relate their linguistic understanding to the tradition of wolves or hunting culture, but when it came time to mediate with other clans they would adopt something more universal, this universality leads to a commonality more based on material objectivity, or discussing in empirical values rather than a shared consciousness. So when you have this modern nihilistic view, you are diametrically opposed to any idea of there being a value of shared or collective consciousness i.e. the spirit.

[Anonymous No.19209667]

>>19209325
>Like they were growing bricks, clothing, plates etc. out of their asses?
You can't be this dumb

[Anonymous No.19209672]

>>19209650
If "spirit" is just a shared experience then you are as much informed by modern nihilism as the opposing views you are castigating. It's like saying gods are jungian archetypes, it's not a true belief in theism anymore, it's psychology relapsing into philosophy.

[Anonymous No.19209675]

>>19207484
>Buddha had stated that the reason why man feels suffering is because he get attached. He connected to his cycle of desires again and again and eventually he feels suffer.

Also in Buddhism is that we are attached to things because we do not see the world as is. What we see through our limited understanding is a world of solids/objects/substance/unitary phenomanas. We then consider what we see as real and thus are led around by this false notion of reality. What is real is not unitary phenomenas but a web of inter-connected phenomenas.

Consciousness Cioran considers consciousness as the foundation of suffering, thats a flawed understanding. Consciousness isn't anything bad of itself. Its just a mechanism for which we conceive of things. Its only how we perceive the world that is the issue at hand. If you go to a picnic and sit down to watch the sky, what you will see are clear skies or clouds. There is no suffering being projected. There is no evil there. When we make categorical mistakes with conceiving things, thats how we begin to be led astray from true state of the world. When the actions we take conflict with the reality, we suffer as result. Not because we conceive but because we conceive wrong things. That wrong thing is the idea of unitary phenomenas. The idea that every phenomena has some sort of a substance, an essence, a magical soul, that lives inside every object we see. Thats the sort of flawed sense of reality we conceive and make flawed understanding.
Buddhist idea is to fix this flawed ways of looking at things, by first allowing us to train our minds to not be distracted, then focus on the moral teachings, with that get the proper wisdom to live with new found understanding of the world.

[Anonymous No.19209696]

>>19209602
Slow down there buddy, all of those events are consequent to the introduction of liberalism. The reason people can view these events as such a tragedy is because they have no context in contemporary Faustian civilization. Most people are unsure of the reason or purpose of WW2 and we discuss this arbitrary Good vs. Evil dichotomy, meanwhile the war was really about solidifying the hegemony of liberalism/ democracy.

[Anonymous No.19209698]

>>19207484
>The prima causa of samsara or despair is being born.
Buddha says the same. birth is suffering is the first part of the noble truth of suffering.

[Anonymous No.19209704]

Yeah, and? Why should we avoid suffering?

[Anonymous No.19209705]

>>19209667
Someone else should have to have worldly desires so they could produce the materials under which you take refuge and makes your survival possible then monks sniff their own farts and say desire: Bad, worldly attachment: Bad, clinging to materialism: Bad etc.

Peak contradiction and hypocrisy.

[Anonymous No.19209706]

>>19207484
Correct; This is why we need Jesus to save us from the terror of consciousness. Save us, O Lord!!

[Anonymous No.19209737]

>>19209672
I totally agree, its much more natural and advantageous for the average person to take that "leap of faith" as Kierkegaard puts in. I dont think that disproves my analysis of modern societies mechanism of destroying the human spirit through commoditization of language and repurposing our innate desire to create beauty for indefinable utopia of technological "progress" the system so desperately needs.

[Anonymous No.19209745]

>>19209672
Consciousness is the antithesis of the divine, philosophy itself struggles immeasurably to define the existence of something so simple and primordial as "faith".

[Anonymous No.19209759]

>>19209696
>Slow down there buddy, all of those events are consequent to the introduction of liberalism.
Beauty such as Mongolian invasions, Napoleon's campaign of Russia, Native American genocide etc. but this is beside the logic you called "humans" like liberalism was invented by aliens. But no that wasn't solely liberalism. Japan was a monarchy, USSR was a communist dictatorship, Nazi Germany was a fascist dictatorship and Bengal was a British colony. With every creation you create more death.

[Anonymous No.19209863]

These deaths are only viewed as pointless and tragic only if you presuppose that human life has no inherent value beyond the physical form. Death in antiquity was viewed as something that emancipated the value of human life from the contraints of the physical form (war, material, destruction). Whether or not you can find arbitrary examples of large amounts of death is indifferent from the reality that the strive for life has created a sort of divinity in the form of beauty or 'goodness'.

[Anonymous No.19209984]

>>19207484
> But Cioran goes further
Both Buddha and Cioran don’t go deep enough, since neither answers why people exist as beings that can be attached or conscious to begin with
>He had stated that the reason why we desaring something is because we are having consciousness in this world.
This is just passing the buck onto the already present existence of consciousness, this doesn’t address the question of why we are here as the consciousness animating a human body to begin with, why there is the possibility of a world we can experience
>What i mean by consciousness is a mental state that makes human trully aware who he is and what things as they are.
This is a pretty common mistake, in actuality consciousness is what knows that discursive mental state, it isn’t identical with it and any attempt to label consciousness as identical with it falls apart under critical scrutiny.
>We aware of our own shadow and tragedy in this world. It what makes suffer.
Being aware is not what makes us suffer, you only suffer if you identify yourself with the suffering which you aware of, if you don’t identify yourself with it then you wont suffer
>We can have consciousness only because we were being born before.
Before as in this very body? That’s just blind faith in materialism which isn’t a very captivating position. Or do you mean we are born in this body because we were born before in other bodies before this one? That’s also not answering why we are experiencing such conditions in the first place. Either way; that’s an incomplete explanation that doesn’t really answer the fundamental question.

[Anonymous No.19210104]

>>19209737
>repurposing our innate desire to create beauty for indefinable utopia of technological "progress"
I don't know if that's misdirection of beauty seeking, it's more of a fear of discomfort that's been taken to cancerous levels

[Anonymous No.19210109]

>>19209745
>Consciousness is the antithesis of the divine
I think most theologians would disagree, since there's no other way to even conceive of god, but ok

[Anonymous No.19210121]

>>19209863
Greeks were melancholic and pessimistic. Don't you know about The Wisdom of Silenus? What we are doing is a reduction of suffering the people who suffered weren't just numbers but actual human beings with subjectivity, loves, dreams, families, hopes, ideals, morals who suffered countless times. I have deeply stared at the faces of my generation there is no life behind their eyes, I have seen the youthful spirit dying in early twenties, I have seen old people with dilating void like mouths begging on streets under July's sun, I have heard stories of people who got raped in their childhoods from which they never recovered and many other horrible things. Absolute suffering is interwoven into the very fabric of life. I would be lying to say that beauty doesn't overwhelm me, yes it does I often cry even at site of simple things like certain shadows in the golden hour. Here I am on the street enjoying a site and then I see an old woman struggling to breath and crying food items or I see a kid begging on the street and pain i observe when I visit a hospital, the melancholy I feel when I visit a graveyard, the turmoil, impotency, deception and fraud I observe I visit the courts, the rage I feel when I visit the sites of bonded labour. This reality slaps me on my face and annihilate any trace of euphoria created by beauty.

[Anonymous No.19210250]

>>19210109
God is around you, its an experience every living thing is aware of, why do you think it requires conciousness?

[Anonymous No.19210325]

>>19209309
>Buddhist communities were for most of history self sustained
one of the answers that Buddhists themselves give for why they declined to negligible amounts in India is a loss of financial patronage, it seems they weren’t so self-sufficient after all
>>19209292
this
>>19209326
cringe
>>19209358
>Only monks, whores, bums and criminals have the attitude of indifference towards world and this shit is impossible if you live with in the normative structure of societies and a man with this attitude wouldn't even live in society in the first place.
That’s not true, it’s explained in the Bhagavad-Gita how to remain in the world without attachment, by going about your natural actions but with the attitude of renouncing the fruits of those actions and dedicating them to God instead of being fixated on them
>It is doubtful that even these people are fully indifferent because they still posses memory.
Attachment in the form of desire is not required for memory to function.
>they give you the wretched curse of the Self
The Self is always complete, fulfilled, beyond any connection with suffering, beyond taint and beyond despair

[Anonymous No.19210340]

>>19210325
>The Self is always complete, fulfilled, beyond any connection with suffering, beyond taint and beyond despair

[Anonymous No.19210359]

>>19209745
> Consciousness is the antithesis of the divine
Consciousness IS the divine

[Anonymous No.19210373]

>>19207484
>Bad English
>Too dumb to understand basic Buddhism
>Waa waa waa
Christ people, shape up

[Anonymous No.19210375]

>>19209675
>If you go to a picnic and sit down to watch the sky, what you will see are clear skies or clouds. There is no suffering being projected
What if your bowel bursts at said picnic?

[Anonymous No.19210381]

>>19210375
>What if your bowel bursts at said picnic?
Stop clinging, numbskull

[Anonymous No.19210402]

>>19210381
So I'm just going to nirvana my way out of that surely jarring noxious event?
At the very least, I've ruined my picnic.

[Anonymous No.19210414]

>>19210250
Ok so you're a pantheist, one weird trick to make theologians seethe as it were

[Anonymous No.19210423]

>>19210402
>ruined
What is is. "Ruin" is you telling yourself that you are a loser. And look at you. Here you are, thinking about going to a picnic, and you already ruined it just to make a point. There is no suffering, except you love to suffer, so you decide to see things as bad things sure to happen to you

[Anonymous No.19210471]

>>19210340

[Anonymous No.19210889]

>>19210423
I'd say there's a difference between love and expectation.
I expect to suffer. I have suffered, and I know people outside of me seem to as well, so I made a guess.
It is likely I will suffer. Not too outlandish, eh?

[Anonymous No.19211576]

>>19210250
>God is around you, its an experience every living thing is aware of, why do you think it requires consciousness?
If you truly hold that God is everything within the universe, unless you have a good reason to exclude consciousness from this then the logical thing is to include consciousness within the everything that God comprises, so then if God lacks consciousness He isn't actually everything that exists in the universe but would be everything except consciousness, so unless you wanted your own position to be logically inconsistent, you'd have to admit that God was comprised of consciousness in some way in order to also say God is the universe and everything in it.

However, the problem with saying that God is all phenomena including objects, space etc. is that it involves logical contradictions when this is found to include things which are mutually exclusive with the other attributes one usually attributes to God like eternal, infinite, immutable. If you say that God is really the material world and consciousness in one changing eternal infinite substance or God then you face the contradiction of saying something is eternal but also subject to change even though change will render it non-eternal in some way. Hence, it's more logical to regard God as somehow transcending physical matter, space, time and causation or at least as more real than them, than to invite contradictions by trying to shoehorn them into a contrived identity.

[Anonymous No.19211771]

>>19210340
He's sort of memeing you here as in Advaita Vedanta "your self" doesn't actually exist. So, don't worry, you aren't actually suffering because Atman actually can't suffer, it can only reflexively be aware of itself. Not that it matters, because you don't exist and are made of nothing.

>>19210402
Yes, you can meditate your way out of a heart attack. It's not easy, however.

[Anonymous No.19211917]

>>19207711
That's why the buddhist make a difference bewteen nirvana and paninirvana
Your knowledge of buddhism is mediocre
Cioran don't go further than the Buddha

[Anonymous No.19211920]

>>19211917
>paninirvana
Parinirvana*

[Anonymous No.19213514]

>>19207484
As i see it he doesnt go further but a step back.

[Anonymous No.19213581]

>>19211917
So nirvana isn't the annihilation of desire and thus there is still suffering because you're clinging to desires like eating, drinking water, pissing and shitting.

[Anonymous No.19214438]

>>19213514
Cope

[Anonymous No.19214518]

>>19207484
>human trully aware who he is and what things as they are.
But this is not essential to the human condition but an historical process.

Idealists btfo'd once more

[Anonymous No.19214725]

>>19209309
You're a moron if you believe this. No community of people spending most of their time meditating could possibly be self sustaining, especially in the pre industrial period. Someone was doing their labor for them, someone was farming their rice.

[Anonymous No.19214953]

Sun doesn’t see shadows.

[Anonymous No.19214963]

>>19214953
Sun is a brainless retard.

[Anonymous No.19214986]

>>19210889
You suffer because you tell yourself that one thing is "good" and another is "bad". But all that is simply is

Cioran is a babby who made a career out of shilling to babbys, he's just the ironic charicature of Lobsterman

[Anonymous No.19214994]

>>19207484

You can have consciousness without desire, they're not the same thing

[Anonymous No.19214998]

>>19209337
This.
>>19209358
You are ignorant. Not being a victim of your emotions and conditioned experiences != being indifferent.

[Anonymous No.19214999]

>>19214986
>You suffer because you tell yourself that one thing is "good" and another is "bad".
Pickup a mallet and smash your cock

[Anonymous No.19215010]

>>19214998
>You are ignorant.
Stop being emotional kid. You could have ignored. Stop throwing stones at braking dogs you hypocrite retard.

[Anonymous No.19215011]

>>19209602
>Holohoax
go back

[Anonymous No.19215023]

>>19214999
See, even your edgy response shows just how infantile you are
And there are actual people who do that for pleasure, you simply take your condition to be a universal truth

[Anonymous No.19215033]

>>19209759
> Mongolian invasions, Napoleon's campaign of Russia
Those were more or less beautiful.
>USSR was a communist dictatorship
Somehow you don't mention the jews.

[Anonymous No.19215034]

>>19215023
>And there are actual people who do that for pleasure
Sure, that's I am telling you try this pleasure. All suffering is just in our head anyway.

[Anonymous No.19215088]

>>19214986
I want to believe you. I truly do.
I want to believe pain is to be so easily overcome.

But as my example of the bowel bursted picnic calamity may illustrate, it seems so silly in practice, all this "detachment from suffering" business.

If you're right, then there are no hells to fear for man. I want you to be right, but I can't see it.

[Anonymous No.19216727]

Sidarta would agree as well, remember his mother died about a week after he was born. In order to be an "enlightened" being you must suffer on a very primitive level.

[Anonymous No.19216782]

>>19214725
You know the monastics grow their own food at the monastery right? They do receive gifts for special days like the bhuddas birthday(May 15th) and such.

[Anonymous No.19216970]

>>19207484
so fucking asinine. he is certainly succeeding in making me want to kill myself

[Anonymous No.19217414]

>>19207484
The ultimate truth is that nobody was ever born in this world. It's an empty world, without anything, ever. There's nothing but flames, and such flames only burn for the sake of burning. You cannot have been born because there's no "you" to be born in the first place. The reality of existence does not deals with born, but with burn. If "we" are here, it's only because the flames ignite by such believe while devours the elements existing in such fuel of mental flow.

[Anonymous No.19218836]

>>19207484
>>>/bant/

[Anonymous No.19218985]

>>19214986
>You suffer because you tell yourself that one thing is "good" and another is "bad"

well, that's precisely consciousness and being alive, so do I have to lobotomize myself or kill myself?

[Anonymous No.19219062]

>>19207484
I don't get it. Is suffering inherently a bad thing?

[Anonymous No.19219371]

I had read Cioran did not work. How did he survive?

[Anonymous No.19219509]

>>19209284
Life is such fucking bullshit

[Anonymous No.19219700]

>>19217414
>there's no "you" to be born in the first place
There is a “you”, but it’s unborn and eternal. A non-existent entity wouldn’t have subjective experience.
>>19218985
>well, that's precisely consciousness and being alive,
No it’s not, being conscious and assigning value judgements to phenomena are two entirely different things
>so do I have to lobotomize myself or kill myself?
No, you just have to gain and employ spiritual understanding

[Anonymous No.19219741]

>>19217414
>an empty world, without anything, ever
>There's nothing but flames
I'm confused. Is it an empty world, or a world full of flames?

[Anonymous No.19219851]

>>19207484
>The prima causa of samsara or despair is being born

John 3:3-21
[3]Jesus responded and said to him, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless one has been reborn anew, he is not able to see the kingdom of God."
[4]Nicodemus said to him: "How could a man be born when he is old? Surely, he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be reborn?"
[5]Jesus responded: "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless one has been reborn by water and the Holy Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God.
[6]What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[7]You should not be amazed that I said to you: You must be born anew.
[8]The Spirit inspires where he wills. And you hear his voice, but you do not know where he comes from, or where he is going. So it is with all who are born of the Spirit."
[9]Nicodemus responded and said to him, "How are these things able to be accomplished?"
[10]Jesus responded and said to him: "You are a teacher in Israel, and you are ignorant of these things?
[11]Amen, amen, I say to you, that we speak about what we know, and we testify about what we have seen. But you do not accept our testimony.
[12]If I have spoken to you about earthly things, and you have not believed, then how will you believe, if I will speak to you about heavenly things?
[13]And no one has ascended to heaven, except the one who descended from heaven: the Son of man who is in heaven.
[14]And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so also must the Son of man be lifted up,
[15]so that whoever believes in him may not perish, but may have eternal life.
[16]For God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that all who believe in him may not perish, but may have eternal life.
[17]For God did not send his Son into the world, in order to judge the world, but in order that the world may be saved through him.
[18]Whoever believes in him is not judged. But whoever does not believe is already judged, because he does not believe in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.
[19]And this is the judgment: that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness more than light. For their works were evil.
[20]For everyone who does evil hates the Light and does not go toward the Light, so that his works may not be corrected.
[21]But whoever acts in truth goes toward the Light, so that his works may be manifested, because they have been accomplished in God."

[Anonymous No.19219856]

>>19207484
The Buddha was a truly wise Jedi.

[Anonymous No.19221123]

>>19219700
>No it’s not, being conscious and assigning value judgements to phenomena are two entirely different things
they arent as a bilogical creature value judgement is essential to your existance and as human inherently tied to your conciusness and thus you suffer, no value judgement= empty lobotomized husk. you are making value judments yourself and so does buddhism.

[Anonymous No.19221152]

>>19219371
>I had read Cioran did not work. How did he survive?
i'm also curious about that and if there's a good biography of him

[Anonymous No.19221162]

>>19207484
Yeah Buddha also says bs like living outside your own ego...

If you ain't gonna experience the human experience you rather be just sitting around with a blank mind for 10 years.

[Anonymous No.19221180]

>>19207484
>consciousness is the bourgeois individual subject
Nice ontology Bruce did you get it from the reject shop?

[Anonymous No.19221274]

>>19207484
>But Cioran goes further.
I don't even know who this is but are you retarded? Everything you've attributed to your Daddy archtype is written about in Buddhism

[Anonymous No.19221403]

>>19219700
>There is a “you”, but it’s unborn and eternal. A non-existent entity wouldn’t have subjective experience.

There is an unborn and eternal but that isn't a (You). Also the Buddha isn't saying entities have/dont have subjective experience, he's saying subjective experience is experience and subjective is an illusion.

[Anonymous No.19221813]

>>19221123
>they arent as a bilogical creature value
Just because humans typically rely on value judgements to inform their decision-making doesn’t prove that making value-judgements is itself synonymous with being conscious. You can in fact remain conscious while learning how to suspend and end the minds habit of constantly reacting with like and dislike towards things. Valuing things presupposes being conscious but being conscious doesn’t presuppose that at that very moment you are making a value judgement.

Also, the notion that our essential identity is that of a biological creature is itself an unproven presumption thats implicitly materialist. Another perspective is that we have souls, that we are spiritual beings who are simply having a human experience, like a movie. In any case it cannot be empirically confirmed or otherwise demonstrated that consciousness is physical or identical with the body.

>judgement is essential to your existence
No, it’s not. The human mind can be trained to react to things without considerations of likes and dislikes, without attachment or dismay.

>and as human inherently tied to your conciusness and thus you suffer
It makes no sense to assign our identify to the human body and consider consciousness to be *something else* which us as bodies are tied to, when in fact we are consciousness that is aware of the body, or figuratively “tied to” the body. The way you framed it is backwards; awareness is immediate and fundamental.

>no value judgement= empty lobotomized husk.
That’s not true, you can engage in discursive thought, debate, philosophical speculation and so on without mentally casting things in terms of likes and dislikes.

>you are making value judgments yourself
I never stated that I personally never make them

[Anonymous No.19221845]

>When, after a series of questions about desire, disgust, and serenity, Buddha was asked: “What is the goal, the final meaning of nirvana?” he did not answer. He smiled. There has been a great deal of commentary on that smile, instead of seeing it as a normal reaction to a pointless question. It is what we do when confronted by a child’s why. We smile, because no answer is conceivable, because the answer would be even more meaningless than the question. Children admit no limits to anything; they always want to see beyond, to see what there is afterward. But there is no afterward. Nirvana is a limit, the limit. It is Iteration, supreme impasse….
Thread cancelled by Cioran himself

[Anonymous No.19222033]

>>19213581
I think you misunderstood. Nirvana annhilates craving and aversion. I think desire should not be used as a word to confuse people. You can eat, drink water and piss without feeling any craving or aversing feeling.

[Anonymous No.19222092]

>>19207484
>But Cioran goes further
Buddha did elaborated on it further on the Sakkapañha Sutta.

>The prima causa of samsara or despair is being born.
Yes, thats the first noble truth.

[Anonymous No.19222413]

>>19221403
>There is an unborn and eternal but that isn't a (You).
It is the Self. If it wasn’t then the unborn and eternal could never be attained, as things don’t change their essential nature, something doesn’t ever become something else entirely, the changing cannot merge with or become part of the unchanging eternal. Anything that had a beginning can never become eternal. There is an inherent logical contradiction in the notion of reducing a living being to an assemblage of transient aggregates and then saying that it (which is non-eternal) can attain the changeless unborn of liberation/the Absolute.
>Also the Buddha isn't saying entities have/dont have subjective experience, he's saying subjective experience is experience and subjective is an illusion.
All experience presupposes a real subject or existing awareness to whom it is given. The subject or awareness which knows changing experiences cannot itself be illusory, because illusions like mirages are not self-aware. Something which has no reality cannot produce the positive fact of being sentient. And it’s impossible for disparate experiences to be experienced without a knowing awareness or subject who knows them, since the sense-perceptions and thoughts which constitute experiences are not self-aware and hence they have no capacity to know or experience themselves but must be known by another, the Self.

[Anonymous No.19222473]

The lazy man has an infinitely keener perception of metaphysical reality than the active one.

Cioran

Wagies must be seething

[Anonymous No.19222522]

>>19222413
>It is the Self. If it wasn’t then the unborn and eternal could never be attained, as things don’t change their essential nature, something doesn’t ever become something else entirely, the changing cannot merge with or become part of the unchanging eternal. Anything that had a beginning can never become eternal.
Thats the gist of Hindo/theists/Chriscuck religions but its pure nonsense for everyone else. The idea that there is something that is something outside of causality is purely bullshit that people delude themselves to give themselves hope.

>All experience presupposes a real subject or existing awareness to whom it is given
All experience are experience. Subjectsive awareness of experience are subjective in nature and do not have non-subjective qualities. Thats nonsense speak. Objectives cannot interact with subjective sense. Thats why all subjective experience is an illusion and do not have a correspondence towards reality.

[Anonymous No.19223630]

>>19209984
Our sensory apparatus evolved to the point where a self similar reflection was created. It was a shortcut to create a sense of differentiation where we could distinguish betweek others and ourselves, and eventually associate with those more close to us, giving power to groups and communities. The chimpamzee was the most apt, but others will too, given time.

[Anonymous No.19224861]

>>19221813
>Just because humans typically rely on value judgements to inform their decision-making doesn’t prove that making value-judgements is itself synonymous with being conscious
nope you retard humans specifically got conciousness to help with value judgments. you have no evidence to prove otherwise

>like and dislike towards things

the idea that liking or dislike is bad or that suffering is bad is a value judgement buddhism is moot in that case.

>No, it’s not. The human mind can be trained to react to things without considerations of likes and dislikes, without attachment or dismay.
demonstrably false unless you get lobotomized or are born with an emotionally dead
>Also, the notion that our essential identity is that of a biological creature is itself an unproven presumption thats implicitly materialist. Another perspective is that we have souls, that we are spiritual beings who are simply having a human experience, like a movie. In any case it cannot be empirically confirmed or otherwise demonstrated that consciousness is physical or identical with the body.
conciousnes is (you) and therefore youre identity

>That’s not true, you can engage in discursive thought, debate, philosophical speculation and so on without mentally casting things in terms of likes and dislikes.
i dont know what mental gymnastics you need to go through to actually think this, the entire point of debate and philosophical speculation is value judgment no value = no room to talk, you would simply sit there do nothing emotionless and starve to death.

>I never stated that I personally never make them
yet again the 4chinz buddhafag reveals himself as a hypocrite who cannot abide by his own rules, you are all the same and very neurotic inside and try to mask it with your sophistry.