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/lit/ - Literature

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19180801 No.19180801[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

>The greatest salvation is to have never been born into this world

Refute this, you literally can’t. All of your philosophy books won’t save you from the fact that your existence is meaningless.
Life is not a gift, but a curse.

>> No.19180814

there is no salvation without something to be salvaged

>> No.19180820

>>19180801
Greeks and Philosophical Pessimists agree.

>> No.19180822

>>19180814
All subjective. Salvation is to have never received the hell of existence.

>> No.19180824

>>19180822
there is no receiving the hell of existence without a receiver

>> No.19180834

>>19180824
One day, you will not exist. All your dreams, memories, insecurities, fears, wishes, desires will fade into the wind. Your body will bloat and decay as maggots feast onto your corpse. All of your loved ones will suffer the same fate, and one day, a person will utter your name, or hold a thought of you for the last time. You will be erased from existence, and then from the memories of everyone. All of it, an utterly pointless procedure.

>> No.19180845

>>19180834
What’s wrong with that? I enjoy existence and don’t mind that it’s temporary. Didn’t need a philosophy book to reach that conclusion myself.

>> No.19180853

>>19180801
>Life is not a gift, but a curse.
Wouldnt both those terms preassume a meaning?

shouldnt the ultimate conclusion just be that life is?

>> No.19180858

>>19180834
and?

If this bothers you, then perhaps there is something wrong with you, perhaps narcissism.

A healthy person imagines himself living on in other people.

>> No.19180862

>>19180834
That is entirely correct. And I have yet to hear a sensible argument as to why one should not speed up that process

>> No.19180864

>>19180845
>b-but I’m happy living!
That’s your pathetic instincts keeping you alive. You would be a lot better off dead, trust me. We managed billions of years of non-existence before we were born. However we struggle to live 100 bumpy years of living because living is suffering.

>>19180853
I suppose, everything ‘is’ when you break it all down. But people are suffering as they are alive.

>> No.19180869

>>19180834
God I hope it happens soon.

>> No.19180871

>>19180864
>But people are suffering as they are alive.
No thats just because you are genetic waste. Life is not suffering when you are healthy and stable, which is possible for most people until their fifties.

>> No.19180885

>>19180864
>you would be a lot better off dead
says the living, breathing, food-eating hypocrite known as sadboi

grow some balls anon, why don'tcha

>> No.19180886
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19180886

>No, I am great just for being born.
>So instead i think I will instead just keep moving forward.

>> No.19180887

>>19180864
people are suffering? that doesn’t mean anything. that isn’t real.

>> No.19180888

>>19180858
>muh healthy person
>muh mental illness
>YOU MUST CONFORM AND BE (((HEALTHY)))

A ‘healthy’ slave deluded themselves into thinking that their miserable existence is meaningful and they are happy with their environment. Be a good slave. Wonderful slave.

It’s the most common tactic of this era, that if you are unhappy, then it’s your fault, not because you live in an unnatural and artificial world where we were designed to live in a Hunter/gatherer society. Humans are animals that suffer the burden of intelligence. We would be better off falling back to our animalistic instincts.

>> No.19180894

>existence bad
>no, it doesn't make me a pathetic coward to keep on existing despite my beliefs

>> No.19180897

>>19180864
You’re suffering maybe. I’m doing quite well. Maybe I’m just better than you.

>> No.19180914

>>19180894
It’s called survival instincts you faggot, and yes I am a coward. I fully agree.

>>19180897
‘Better’ just means that you are a more useful cog in our society. A tool that is used for a couple of decades and then discarded. That’s another psyop. Competition in this world to create better and stronger consumers and slaves. ‘You can be Rich one day, you just need to work harder!’
‘You can get the girl one day, you just need to consume products and get a gym membership’

It’s all bullshit, and you fall for it like clockwork.

>> No.19180916

>>19180864
>suffering as they are alive
But that in itself is meaningless too. Wouldn't the most logical thing to be ambivalent to life and death, as being anti-life gives particular meaning to things (ie, suffering).

I think anti-natalism proper (which I dont think is necissarily wrong) depends on there being a meaning a prioi, and that meaning is that suffering is greater than joy.
As the secession of suffering seems to bring with it a sense of joy, while the sensation of pleasure is itself a suffering, thus non existance indicates a net zero as opposed to a net negative. thus joy is nothing but a reprieve of suffering not two equal and opposite states.

>> No.19180920

>>19180914
>you're the faggot for pointing out my weakness, in a thread where I explicitly ask to be refuted
unironically kill yourself, you know you want to

>> No.19180923

>>19180914
Everything revolves around me though, I’ve effortlessly gotten to where I am just by being me. If my life is temporary what’s it matter if my success is as well?

>> No.19180935

>>19180914
Why should I listen to your philosophy when not even you can commit to it?

>> No.19180936

>>19180801
We cannot be before we are born/conceived/whatever, and therefore cannot be the object of salvation, or anything. Non-existence is not neutral, as neutrality is the attribute of something that exists.

>> No.19180953

Stop telling him to commit suicide you dumb retards.

By saying that he should commit suicide is a contradiction on your behalf and an argument in his favour because you're agreeing with him that life isn't worth living. He thinks life is suffering because someone has pushed him to bear this total suffering and that same suffering is pushing him towards another form of more suffering with is suicide.

>> No.19180959

>>19180953
death is the end of suffering. that is his claim. we're telling him to have some spine and act on his claim

>> No.19180966

>>19180953
Us who enjoy life don’t need to explain it. We destroy the things we hate to make life good. If he hates his own life he should destroy it.

>> No.19180968

>>19180916
Interesting idea. People love applying meanings to anything and everything. Anti-Natalism is primarily a emotional reaction to suffering. We are defying our instincts.

>>19180920
You insulted me, I insulted you. Fair and fair

>>19180923
Why do you need to prove yourself to me? The very fact that you are here heavily implies you are a social outcast and very unhappy

>b-but I have a gf and a g-good job
You will never be a normie.

>>19180935
You can listen to it, or don’t. It’s your choice. Many braver men have acted on this philosophy.

>> No.19180973

>>19180959
You can't make this claim without agreeing with the idea that life is suffering and not worth living.

>>19180966
Kek, you're on 4chan of all places.

>> No.19180977

>>19180968
>fair
sure sure, but again: if existence terrible, why keep existing?

>> No.19180985

>>19180953
Death is the absence of suffering, my good friend. There is no greater punishment than being ripped from the peaceful void and being forced into a flesh puppet for several decades as you slave away to your instincts and decay.

>>19180966
>t. Another slave to their instincts.
Atleast I don’t delude my slavery.

>> No.19180986

>>19180973
I can allow that claim on the basis that it's a subjective view. I don't have to agree with it to tell him that he should act on his beliefs

>> No.19180987

>>19180968
Why would I want to be a normie lmao. Having a good life does not equate to being a normie.

>> No.19180993

>>19180977
Because, anon. I’m a coward. That’s the truth, always have been, always will be. I don’t deny that.

>> No.19180998

>>19180986
No, he isn't making a subjective claim. He making a claim for whole humanity which does consider you and your family. Will you say the same thing to someone in your family who is suicidal?

>> No.19180999

>>19180993
Death need not be painful. Personally, I don't want you to kys because I think it's a terrible thing to actively not want to live anymore. But I also believe in people's freedom to do as they please, and under that lens I feel obligated to tell you that painkillers can easily knock you out

>> No.19181001

>>19180985
Where has all your thinking for you, and all my stupidity got me? I seem better off even though I’m low iq. Why wouldn’t I “delude” myself. Genuinely curious since I’ll concede you’re more intelligent than me.

>> No.19181002

It could be A salvation, but it is not The Greatest salvation.

>> No.19181005
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19181005

>>19180864
Midwit reddit-tier post.
We didn't "manage" billions of years, we literally didn't exist. I still remember the day when i was a kid and realised not existing is different from infinite blackness or whatever. You cannot struggle or manage, you simply do not exist. We can't fucking comprehend it, because all we only know existence.

>> No.19181008

>>19180801
>Life is not a gift, but a curse.
Who was cursed then?

>> No.19181010

>>19180998
If they're philosophizing their own suicidal tendencies, then I will try to argue with them on that basis. I can also simultaneously make it clear that I and others would be terribly hurt if he were to actually do it.
>he isn't making a subjective claim
dipshit, all claims are subjective, whether or not they claim to be universal and objective is secondary. He claims life is pure suffering, I (and probably the majority of humans) disagree

>> No.19181011

>>19180801
If there wasn’t a you there wouldn’t be anything to achieve salvation. This well of content souls is moronic fantasy shit. You are you or you are nothing.

>> No.19181015

>>19180998
Honestly, everything I say is subjective because life just ‘is.’

However, I will ask you this. If you had the choice to live every life that has ever lived, would you live them? The answer to that is NO, because the suffering of being tortured, disembowelled, raped, getting your dick cut off, dying in fire and having all of your loved ones die is much more powerful than the good memories of life.

Suffering is much more present in life than happiness, therefore one should consider committing suicide, and yes, if a family member of mine was considering it, I would advise them to go through with it.

>> No.19181044

>>19181010
>I can also simultaneously make it clear that I and others would be terribly hurt if he were to actually do it.
That's the main reason why most people don't do it. Even Ligotti said that his family would be extremely. You should disagree with an assumption but telling someone to commit suicide is a dick move.

>> No.19181047
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19181047

>>19180801
It is better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all. Everybody hurts sometimes, don't forget it.

>> No.19181052

>>19180968
You’re unhappy and your life is going nowhere and you’re projecting.

>> No.19181057

>>19180888
You’re the one saying suffering is bad. If it’s meaningless then don’t implicate meaning or goodness. Your responses and need to convince your peers is the animalistic response of an animal thrashing. If it doesn’t matter just be a rock. Bear witness, quietly.

>> No.19181070

>>19180953
>Stop telling him to commit suicide you dumb retards.
Also, it is a crime in most Commonwealth countries to tell someone to commit suicide, regardless if suicide ensues, and is passable of a sentence going up to 10 years on average.

>> No.19181074

>>19180985
>imagining a peaceful void.
>faith in things like this while griping about how it’s all meaningless nothing
You might as well start talking about pearly gates and streets made of gold. You are not a peaceful soul. You are the suffering and “you” does not exist separate from it.

>> No.19181095

>>19180985
>Death is the absence of suffering
We do not know that. We shouldn't act on pure unknowns.
>the peaceful void
You are reifying your nonexistence. Death is not a comfy sleep.

>> No.19181109
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19181109

>>19180801
Life is a gift and I thank god for every breath I take.

>> No.19181115

>>19181044
It's arguably worse to try and push this kind of "philosophy" onto others. Idk if there are statistics on it, but I think it's safe to say that every suicide related to Ligotti and similar authors can atleast in part be attributed to them

>> No.19181123

>>19180801
>Refute this
My life is great and I love it. There. Easy.
Now you'll probably type out "cope", so I'll preempt that - cope with what?

>> No.19181124

>>19180864
>You would be a lot better off dead, trust me
Yet you're whining here

>> No.19181131

>>19181123
Agreed, I’m in the same boat.

>> No.19181162

>>19181015
I get to fuck Cleopatra tho? Idk bro...

>> No.19181221

>>19180801
Literally refuted by Nietzsche in Twilight of the Idols

>> No.19181302

>>19181123
Anecdotal evidence of one person is worthless
Should policies be structured around one person's ideal experience? Should billions suffer just so a few outliers can have good lives?

>> No.19181308

>>19181302
do you honestly believe that billions of people would agree with you that their lives are fundamentally not worth living?

>> No.19181322

>>19181302
Not my problem

>> No.19181347

>>19181308
humans cannot be trusted to give an accurate appraisal of their own situation
if you need everybody to agree on something for it to be actionable or considered true nothing ever gets done and no truths are ever accepted

>> No.19181362

>>19181347
so then why should we trust pessimists when they say that life is pure suffering?

>> No.19181364

>>19181362
Pick up a history boom sometime

>> No.19181374

>>19180801
Ok, shoot yourself
>inb4 op replies to this

>> No.19181375

>>19180801
I'm sure this was refuted the last time this thread was posted, check the archive

>> No.19181381

>>19180801
The fact that there is something rather than nothing is what enables you to make this retarded and gay claim

>> No.19181386

>>19181364
material conditions have been getting a lot better over the last few hundred years. are you aware of that? You just state your opinion as if it was infallible fact. I think the truth is that you lot just want to tear people down with you.

>> No.19181388

>>19181375
It gets refuted everytime by the fact that OP is still alive

>> No.19181389

>>19181362
There's no need for trust
I don't say "trust me the sky is blue" I just tell you to look up

>> No.19181408

>>19181389
Noone in my life is as suicidal or pessimistic as you. My life experience tells me that you people are sad clowns, gaining satisfaction from wallowing in your misery while refusing to do anything at all about it.

>> No.19181434

>>19181386
>material conditions have been getting a lot better over the last few hundred years.
He said, as he posted from a phone whose core hardware minerals were mined by child slaves in Congo and 5 million people have been killed in civil war over mining profits. He is wearing clothing made by niggerslaves of some 3rd world country, he is producing highest rate of carbon footprint due to 1st world rate of consumption in a climate which is fucked beyond repair probably belongs to the country which is facing an opioid crisis and he belongs to the most mentally ill and hopeless generation in history who have nothing going on in their lives except some abstract cyberspace communication.

>> No.19181440

>>19181408
You're right anon I guess I'll just be happy and ignorant like you basing my entire world view around only my own experiences

>> No.19181465

>>19181440
>dodging all the actual substantive replies
>going back and forth with another anon that “my subjective opinion is correct”… “no mine is self evident”..”no mine”
You see the irony here right? At least make an attempt at moving past the first level of the discussion

>> No.19181486

>>19181440
you do that regardless you silly goose. there is nothing outside of one's experience as far as one can truly tell

>> No.19181490

>>19181386
>>19181434
Don't get me wrong anon. I think internet, computers, medicine etc. are pretty fucking cool inventions but suffering is an objective fact of life.

>> No.19181499

>>19181434
oh I'm not american first of all. Second of all, the rates of starvation and death by disease have been greatly decreasing in the last 30 years. I think that's a good thing. Also, in relation to the child slavery stuff things have been getting better as well. Same with the climate. Not that you'd care to know about any of that, because you probably just gain satisfaction from how pathetic you are.

>> No.19181507

>>19181490
Yes, I'm not denying that suffering exists, or that it's a big part of life. But surely, SURELY, if life were not worth living at all, then man would have gotten the memo millennia ago

>> No.19181517

>>19181465
There is no other level it's a simple discussion by nature
You only desire to insert unnecessary complexities so you can abuse them towards your own rhetoric and I won't give you that
If I desire to convince anyone of anything it's only the stupidest people of the world

>> No.19181556

>>19181517
atleast you're honest about the fact that you're trying to pull gullible people into the same hole you are in

>> No.19181605

>>19181556
I'm trying to pull everybody out of the same hole
I guess you're trying trying to convince them the hole isn't so bad

>> No.19181606

>>19181517
You’re trying to convince others, you made the thread, specifically asked for refutations, but won’t use any common lexicon or logic systems staying solely behind repeating your own subjective experience? Lmao, so you failed miserably and are retreating into the worlds largest cope? If you want someone to change your subjective misery but won’t engage with logic unironically just pray.

>> No.19181669

>>19181606
You really don't get it do you? There is no logic to be found here it's of absolutely no use. Suffering defies logic. It is a constant truth. Nobody can tell you why suffering exists. To try to apply logic to it is the biggest goddamn cope there is. I mean you're right praying is about the best anyone can do.

>> No.19181732

>>19181605
>out of the hole
and into the view that existence itself is fundamentally wrong. How is your hole of misery better than anyone else's?

>> No.19181737

>>19181669
So I’m right or I don’t get it? But seriously pray to something greater than yourself and ask. Faith can be cultivated via behavior, science and religion both agree. Cultivate your faith in something outside your own head.

>> No.19181741

>>19181669
this applies to every single state of existence. joy defies logic as much as suffering

>> No.19181747

>>19181669
And to be clear I was trying logic because you specifically asked for a refutation. If what you want is a change in perspective or wisdom all you can do is try what has worked for others.

>> No.19181749

>>19180801
>Refute this, you literally can’t.


I mean, my gf sucking my dick and draining my balls into her mouth is pretty good. I wouldnt mind coming back alive just for that then dying again

>> No.19181754
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19181754

>>19181302
Not my problem.

>> No.19181757

>>19181302
>>19181347
>why is your own judgement more important to you than that of billions of people? You mean billions of people would agree with you instead of me? Sorry, meant to say that billions of people cannot be trusted to make up their own judgement about life
quit trying to project your misery onto others and slither back into the abortion bucket you came from

>> No.19181780

Its funny how people praise how good antinatalism is and that everything is pointless. If thats so why dont you all just stop existing right now? You don't. Go get nice warm meal anon

>> No.19181781

>>19180914
>‘Better’ just means that you are a more useful cog in our society. A tool that is used for a couple of decades and then discarded. That’s another psyop. Competition in this world to create better and stronger consumers and slaves. ‘You can be Rich one day, you just need to work harder!’
>‘You can get the girl one day, you just need to consume products and get a gym membership’
>It’s all bullshit, and you fall for it like clockwork.

You're implying you need that to be happy. I literally am enjoying urban live until I feel I don't need to and then I can go and live rurally. I've not many needs here and going full anprim isn't hard.

>> No.19181791

>>19181741
This may be true but suffering clearly exists in much greater quantities than joy. It's simply wrong to view joy as separate from suffering when in reality it's merely an aspect of suffering and in fact it's greatest tool. If there was nothing but suffering all the time it would actually be far less painful. It's only with the knowledge of joy that suffering becomes so torturous and those who experience joy more than others are like the demons of hell tasked with that torture.

>> No.19181835

>>19181791
your misery growing at the sight of my joy is really not my responsibility
>suffering clearly exists in much greater quantities
can you actually prove that?

>> No.19181887

>>19181835
That's really what your think huh? Just remember that nothing in this world comes from nothing. Your joy is always a result of someone else's suffering. One of the most ridiculous notions people have is that you can "spread" joy as if it were an infinite resource. Don't take responsibility if you don't want to, it only proves my point even further, but don't think you aren't causing others to suffer.

>> No.19181888

>>19180968
>You insulted me, I insulted you. Fair and fair
You are a petty fuck.

>> No.19181931

>>19181887
I sure am, and I don't care that your suffering is growing. You did not need to make this thread and engage with people who you know full well would tell you to kill yourself or suck it up. If your misery has grown due to this thread, then that is ENTIRELY on you and you know that.
>Your joy is always a result of someone else's suffering
Nonsense. When a friend tells me a joke and we laugh, then that has nothing to do with another's suffering. Plenty of jokes out there are not at the expense of someone else.

>> No.19181943

>>19181887
>>19181887
>Joy isn’t spreadable but misery is.
>How does empathy work?
>Joy over something like discovering a resource or solving a problem, increasing your knowledge, etc is all at someone elses expense
You’re too far up your own ass dude these points are downright silly.

>> No.19181949

>>19181931
If I already know all this then why are you trying so hard to convince me of it
Everything you're saying is for yourself not for me

>> No.19181950

>>19181109
this