/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.19178220]

>literally advocates for state-raised children

[Anonymous No.19178226]

>literally advocates fucking traps

[Anonymous No.19178230]

>>19178220
yes
>>19178226
Plato said no. Only the literal whos said yes.

[Anonymous No.19178238]

eugenics and state raised children is the future

[Anonymous No.19178240]

>>19178220
Based.

[Anonymous No.19178247]

>>19178230
>Plato said no.
Plato doesn't speak in this dialogue, we've got no way of knowing whether he actually advocates for traps or if he would side with Socrates.
I'm inclined to think Plato would favor traps

[Anonymous No.19178253]

>>19178220
I don't know how I feel about that because I hate my state raised parents and I hate my state but I hate my state raised parents more than my state and I am grateful for the slightly less shitty state that raised me than the severely shitty state that is coercing me now.

[Anonymous No.19178267]

>>19178247
I would very much disagree, I don't believe he would find it very aesthetically pleasing and it doesnt seem to conform to his larger system and attitude of congruous nature and intent.

And other developments in Neoplatonism likewise seem eh on it as you can read on the "eros" chapter in Plotinus' Enneads.

[Anonymous No.19178274]

>>19178226
no he actually says homosexual ones ar ethe lowest form of love

[Anonymous No.19178278]

>>19178253
true, but Plato's state is a city state (and dont forget hes from hyper socially and politically engages direct democracy Athens). so to me, it seems more understandable. The government is not a depersonalized entity. and it has "It takes a village to raise a child" vibes.

[Anonymous No.19178357]

>>19178220
No it doesn't, firstly it says that if you had the infrastructure of the republic they describe then it is possible, but the system couldn't be implemented nor should it be implemented in contemporary Greek Polises.
Of course, that misses the whole point that the entire idea of investigating the definition of 'justice' was just a means of getting to what the dialogue is really about: the structure of the psyche. The Guardian Class is easily comparable to the frontal cortex in modern neuroscience and the lower classes the other parts of the Triune brain: the limbic and reptilian brains. The 'children' are basically thoughts, concepts and ideas? Why else does the entire dialogue start off asking an old man if he's still as randy and down to fuck as he was when younger? Why else is Socrates at great pains to discuss the allegory between thoughts and objects under dark and light, and the allegory of the cave? Because the "city" is your mind!
The allegories aren't digressions, they are integral to the actual point of the dialogue.

[Anonymous No.19178364]

>>19178357
>“In the Republic, Plato characterizes intelligence as a functioning city. In the course of the dialogue, Socrates, in pursuit of the concept of justice, proposes a characterization of a perfect city as a model of the perfect person. He says,,”…let’s first find out what sort of thing justice is in a city and afterwards look for it in the individual, observing the ways in which the smaller is similar to the larger” [Rep. 368e-389a] What follows is an elaborate theoretical construction of human intelligence in terms of multitudes of functionally organized intelligent agents.
>Jonathan Doner – the Origin and Nature of Intelligence

[Anonymous No.19178373]

Based

[Anonymous No.19178392]

>>19178357
>my growing realization that Plato’s Republic is not, contrary to centuries of popular opinion, a work about political science, but about psychology. The hypothetical utopia Plato describes in the work is an allegory for the politics and governance of the human psyche or soul.
> On Reading Plato’s Republic as Psychology - John S. Uebersax

[Anonymous No.19178404]

>>19178392
Why is it that non-meds can never fully grasp Plato?

[Anonymous No.19178405]

Not all men/women are good parents, if a childs life can be saved if had better parents then aye sharp parents should take over

[Anonymous No.19178417]

>>19178404
Τι λες μαλακα?

[Anonymous No.19178448]

i dont give a fuck what plato said

[Anonymous No.19178535]

>>19178220
he was trolling

[Anonymous No.19178598]

>>19178364
>Jonathan Doner
Literally who?

[Anonymous No.19178623]

>>19178274
:(

[Anonymous No.19178708]

>taking it literally
filtered

[Anonymous No.19178725]

>>19178357
>Similarly to Plato, Marvin Minsky defines the society of mind as a “…scheme in which each mind is made of many smaller processes. These we’ll call agents. Each mental agent by itself can only do some simple thing that needs no mind or thought at all. Yet when we join these agents in societies – in certain very special ways – this leads to true intelligence”
Fun fact: Michael Crichton helped Minsky develop the book of Society of Mind
>>19178598
Who are you? And why should I care

[Anonymous No.19178787]

>>19178226
>>19178274
>>19178267
Plato seems to have been erotically interested in young males but morally against copulation with them. For him pederasty was something both a means to transcendence and something to be transcended. The beauty of the beloved's body was meant to inspire one to desire Beauty itself. To see the beloved's body as the "end" and the thing to consummate with was to lapse into materialism.

[Anonymous No.19178815]

>>19178220
>the Republic
>"literally"
Hard maybe on that.

[Anonymous No.19178861]

>>19178220
One of the most striking parallels to communism with "communally raised children".

[Anonymous No.19178871]

>>19178708
>dude every Philosopher argued under several layers of sarcasm
Filtered

[Anonymous No.19178879]

>>19178220
wait bros i just realized
are we literally living in the republic? what if TPTB used this as a blueprint for our world

[Anonymous No.19178883]

>>19178364
>>19178357
>>19178392
>>19178725
>anglo stem/psychology-tards think they figured out Politeia just from the presence of an obvious analogy (that is for some reason limited by being unidirectional)

[Anonymous No.19178890]

I couldn't find a translation in my native tongue of the Republic so I just got the Wordsworth edition. Is it any good?

[Anonymous No.19178945]

I genuinely did not think there was a single thing wrong with this and actually appreciated it.

When I found out that other people were deeply offended by it I was surprised.

[Anonymous No.19178975]

>>19178787
>For him pederasty was something both a means to transcendence and something to be transcended
lol no it wasn't you lying jenkem huffing pseud

[Anonymous No.19178980]

>>19178975
what part do you disagree with

[Anonymous No.19178983]

>>19178883
Huh; I studied Fine Arts, and who are you calling Anglo; Στα αρχίδια μου

[Anonymous No.19178984]

>>19178980
your entire post

[Anonymous No.19178991]

>>19178984
But on what basis? It's the entire point of the Symposium.

[Anonymous No.19179012]

>>19178991
i had a feeling you did that. you're wrong: the speeches in the symposium succeed or improve on each other. they increasingly refine the idea of love. they finally arrive with socrates' diotima speech, and then afterward there was that thirsty alcibiades nigga that socrates rejected because the physical love is debased. which is explicitly non-sexual and is something like a teacher-student relationship based on virtue

[Anonymous No.19179023]

>>19179012
So don't we essentially agree on Plato's stance? Several of the speakers (I think Pausanias and Phaedrus) defend sexual gratification within pederastic relationships. These are "lower" on the totem pole of virtue than Socrates' celibate conception of pederasty. Alcibiades is surprised by Socrates' refusal to be 'gratified' by his pupil. This is Plato pointing us in the direction we should be going: non-consummated Eros, an Eros above bodies.

[Anonymous No.19179064]

>>19179023
at one point around the first speech, i think somewhere inbetween, he writes a scenario like there is a man who pursues a young boy, quickly woos and fucks him right away and leaves him humiliated. this was considered the most debased form of love.

he also writes of hetero love in a speech further down the line, and though better we have still not arrived.

you wrote
>Plato seems to have been erotically interested in young males
when this is not true.

he seems to have some sympathy for pederasty when it does beget refinement and beauty (in i think of the other speeches), but ultimately he is saying to get away from that practice altogether. he did not approve of pederasty, but is only using it as a medium to demonstrate love.

[Anonymous No.19179083]

>>19178226
Symposium is so comfy bros

[Anonymous No.19179087]

>>19179064
I think it is a reasonable inference to make about Plato. His dialogues feature homoeroticism to an almost unrealistic extent (every single male at the gymnasium being aroused by Charmides). He is preoccupied with the nuances of pederasty and rarely ever writes about heterosexual love, unlike his contemporaries. Xenophon's Symposium in several points appears to try and rebut some of the more pro-homosexual sentiments in Plato's version (particularly regarding Achilles and Patroclus). I don't think Plato having a homosexual orientation is a bad thing even if you disapprove of homosexuality -- if anything it makes him more virtuous for overcoming it. His aversion to homosexuality comes not from a sort of gut response disgust (like the kind Aristophanes may have had) but a deeply considered disillusionment borne of familiarity.

[Anonymous No.19179144]

>>19179087
Well, in the Laws he is adamantly against it. it could have been a common practice of the elites that he hung around. i can't know for sure but something like being a "self-hating homosexual" is a suspect opinion, in my opinion.

[Anonymous No.19179160]

>>19179144
"Self-hating homosexual" is a bit anachronistic, because pederasty wouldn't have been an identity* but a practice. We don't consider St. Paul a "self-hating heterosexual" because of his opinion that celibacy is preferable to marriage.

*at least to the same extent. People could be described as noted pederasts if their inclinations were particularly strong, like Sophocles.

[Anonymous No.19179405]

>>19178220
The State always was a mistake.

[Anonymous No.19179429]

>>19178220
very based, actually

[Anonymous No.19179597]

>>19178357
This is better than most literal readings of the Republic, but I think it gets shaky at the point of taking children as just an analogy for something else. It *is* about the soul, but it's about the soul only to the extent that Justice is a phenomenon of soul; the account of soul given is twice said to be an easier but not wholly true account, with reference made to a "longer and harder" way to understanding it that isn't taken in the dialogue. The issue with women, children, and Cephalus' ability to pop a boner pertains to a competing drive of the soul from that focused on in the Republic; thumos is the anger of the soul that involves Justice, with Eros being an opposing drive that is more open to philosophizing. From the perspective of thumos, Eros is a problem for Justice such that Eros needs to be reduced to a mere appetite (compare the difference between how Eros is treated in the Republic vs. Symposium, Phaedrus, Lysis, Theages, Rival Lovers).

The Republic seems to be looking to Oedipus Tyrannus as a work to draw ideas from; the communism of women and children implicitly results in incest when no one knows who is their sibling or parent, and the account of the tyrant's soul describes them as experiencing their dreams as reality, with the example used being sleeping with their mother. Philosophy in the Republic, with Eros denigrated, is more akin to a technical science instead of an openness to questioning and problems.

[Anonymous No.19179617]

>>19179064
This is good, I would only add that Socratic pederasty is the model of pursuing your own good as the lover and helping the beloved recognize their own good, which seems to be the model for Socrates' conversations.

[Anonymous No.19179627]

>>19179144
That's not quite wrong, but Plato != the Athenian Stranger, who, being an Athenian talking with Doric Greeks, is using a good deal of rhetoric and careful appeals to Doric sensibilities to win his interlocutors over to non-Doric ideas.

[Anonymous No.19179664]

>>19178226
>Plato advocates for every belief asserted in his dialogues

[Anonymous No.19179690]

>>19178220
>The Republic is an ironic work bro

[Anonymous No.19179869]

>>19179087
>feature homoeroticism to an almost unrealistic extent
No they don't.
Our modern sick society that thinks Sam and Frodo were gay on any level is what think so.

[Anonymous No.19180091]

>>19178226
Love and lust aren't the same thing. Someone can recognize that without thinking either are bad.

[Anonymous No.19180099]

tfw have to be guardian bc greatest desire :(

[Anonymous No.19180160]

>>19178247
>Plato doesn't speak in this dialogue
brainlet

[Anonymous No.19180218]

>"I think I'll read Plato"
>decide on protagoras
>open the book
>literally the first lines are two pedos discussing when boipussy is ripest
Yeah I don't think this flaming homo author is for me anons.

[Anonymous No.19180228]

>>19178226
twinks*
ftfy

[Anonymous No.19180270]

>>19178357
>Of course, that misses the whole point that the entire idea of investigating the definition of 'justice' was just a means of getting to what the dialogue is really about
Agreed, justice
> the structure of the psyche
disagreed and cringe. That seems hopelessly stretched and you need to talk about things like reptile brains and limbic, things i dont think Plato was exactly an expert on.

Its states pretty directly that the project was an exploration on the idea of justice.

[Anonymous No.19180828]

>>19179869
You haven't read Plato's dialogues they are explicitly about sex

[Anonymous No.19180831]

>>19178357
>>19178364
>>19178392
Reminds me of those progressive Christian churches that have to go to great length to emphasize how totally not sexist St. Paul was. They just adapt the text and it's interpretation to whatever their true religion is (not Christianity). better yet, reminds me of how the scholastics used to interpret Plato.
This is just a cope. Modern liberal democrats can't handle that ancient philosophers were essentially reactionary (at least when compared to them) and create mental gymnastics in order to shy away from engaging with political science that disagrees with them. Fuck academia, the Republic is not an allegory of your psyche. You're wrong.

[Anonymous No.19181039]

>>19180218
The TL;DR of that is "can't teach and old dog"
Not can you train a puppy.
Only a young mind is maleable and truly receptive to wisdom and virtue.

[Anonymous No.19181242]

>>19180831
Plato was a fag pedo. This is a fact. Plato also thought women should do men's jobs in his Republic, and he made a shit argument for it, like many other aspects of his Utopia.

However, his arguments for monotheistic God were pretty amazing coming from a heathen. Also, his philosophy of forms was truly groundbreaking, although he took it a little to far in saying art was somehow evil for portraying appearance.

In general Plato made a ton of bad arguments which were incoherent, but despite this he managed to come across some profound truths.

[Anonymous No.19181384]

>>19181242
Plato made a lot of great arguments, and made them look weak to filter pseuds like you.

[Anonymous No.19182411]

>>19178220
>>19178871
>>19179690
>>19180160
>>19181242
>There are many causes of error, and they have been enumerated by those who discuss the art of sophistry. It is the wise among the rest of the people who are the ones to have attained experiences that are true and sound. Nevertheless, it is natural for all people to pass a universal judgment after observing a few particular instances—“universal,” here, meaning what encompasses all the particular instances of the thing as well as their duration in time. So, once it is observed that an individual has done a single thing on a number of occasions, it is judged that he does that thing all the time. For instance, when someone has spoken the truth one, two, or more times, it is natural to judge that he is unqualifiedly truthful and, likewise, when someone lies. Again, when someone is observed to act with courage, cowardice, or any other moral habit a number of times, he is judged to do so wholly and always.

>The wise, insofar as they are cognizant of this aspect of people’s natures, sometimes repeatedly present themselves as possessing a certain state of character so that people will judge that this is how they always are. Then, afterward, they adopt a different state of character; and that goes unnoticed by people who presume they have the same state of character as they had formerly.

>It is related, for example, that a certain abstemious ascetic was reputed for his probity, propriety, asceticism, and piety; and he was well known for this among the people. Having become fearful of the unjust sovereign, he wanted to flee from that city of his. The command of that sovereign having been issued to search for and arrest him wherever he was found, he could not leave from any of the city’s gates and became apprehensive lest he fall into the hands of the sovereign’s men. So he sought out a garment worn by vagabonds, put it on, took a lute in his hand, and came early at night to the gate of the city, pretending to be drunk and singing to the accompaniment of that lute of his. The gatekeeper said to him: “Who are you?” Jokingly, he said: “I am so and so, the ascetic!” The gatekeeper presumed he was poking fun at him and did not interfere with him. So he saved himself without having lied in what he said.

>Our purpose in making this introduction is this: the wise Plato did not permit himself to present and uncover all kinds of knowledge to all people. Therefore he followed the path of using symbols, riddles, obscurity, and difficulty lest knowledge fall into the hands of those not deserving of it and be deformed or into the hands of someone who is not cognizant of its worth or uses it improperly. In this he was correct.
Al-Farabi, Summary of Plato's Laws

[Anonymous No.19182423]

>>19178226
That's all I need to start reading it, thanks anon

[Anonymous No.19182927]

>>19178238
eugenics for me; dysgenics for thee

[Anonymous No.19182952]

>>19178357
You forgot the third part of the soul which is the Thumos, or "heart"/"spirit", which helps the intelligence control the reptilian brain but must be properly conditioned.
Plato took the idea from Pythagoras. Why do you think they both liked proper music? Music conditions the Thumos.

[Anonymous No.19183215]

>>19182952
Do you make anything of the difference between the Republic's Calculating-Spirited-Appetitive soul and Pythagoras' Mind-Thought-Spiritedness?

[Anonymous No.19183970]

>>19181039
fucking cope lol

[Anonymous No.19184065]

>>19181242
>he took it a little to far in saying art was somehow evil for portraying appearance.
people confuse this but it's actually based. he was calling out liars who, intentionally or no, lead people down the wrong path. he still said something like "hymns to the gods" would be permissible, and that's because they are what ennobles you. think about how much music featuring effeminate males, or sulking in misery, there is out there; this influences people to be worse and not better. at any rate it makes sense, not dumb at all.

[Anonymous No.19184119]

critias filtered me