How do Protestants contend with James 2, which is clearly against sola fide?

[Anonymous No.19170022]

>What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
>If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
>And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
>Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
>Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
>Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
>But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
>Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
>Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
>And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
>Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
>Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
>For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[Anonymous No.19170037]

>>19170022
How do they cope with 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and 1 Corinthians 1:12 which are clearly against Sola Scriptura?
How do they cope that none of the Church Fathers accepted Sola Fide or Sola Scriptura, until it was invented by the heresiarch Martin Luther?

[Anonymous No.19170045]

how do christcucks cope with the old testament
jesus is literally NOWHERE in it

[Anonymous No.19170050]

>>19170045
Read Isaiah

[Anonymous No.19170066]

>>19170050
I have
Let me guess, because I don't think the vague passage is about Jesus that means I haven't been impregnated by the Holy Spirit or some shit

[Anonymous No.19170097]

>>19170066
It means you're obstinate or stupid

[Anonymous No.19170177]

> It’s not literal, dude. You have a personal relationship with God via scripture and so you can’t be wrong.
Is pretty much their escape valve any time scripture itself refutes sola scripture.

That said, I don’t know how Catholics cope with Octorum fide of Pius VI which makes it clear that you have no choice but to observe Vatican II and the current Pope.

[Anonymous No.19170195]

>>19170177
Why do people hate Vatican II and the current pope so much?

[Anonymous No.19170206]

>>19170195
Because they endorse obvious heresies and anathemas, relativize Catholic teaching, and generally wage war on Catholic tradition.

[Anonymous No.19170219]

>>19170206
what makes you a better authority on the bible than the pope

[Anonymous No.19170248]

>>19170206
>Because they endorse obvious heresies and anathemas
Such as....?

[Anonymous No.19170332]

>>19170022
sola scriptura doesnt even make sense
when you read something you have to interpret it
you might as well have an intelligent man understand it for you

[Anonymous No.19170381]

>>19170332
King James already interpreted it for us

[Anonymous No.19170419]

>>19170022
Even a VERY simple text can be subject to MANY interpretations.*

If you're dealing with a complicated text, or multiple texts, the possibilities for interpretation are ENDLESS. Given this circumstance, each Protestant can work their way into some interpretation that makes sense for them.

Of course, the question is one of AUTHORITY. Who has the authority to interpret the scriptures? Well, the Church does, since "the church is the pillar and foundation of truth." 1 Timothy 3:15.

And what is the Church, pray tell? See pic related.


*E.g., "Fetch some soupmeat" ; see: https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/72828643.pdf

[Anonymous No.19170453]

>>19170022
True faith is faith that produces good works, you shall know them by their fruits. Even Catholics belief that faith is ultimately what is saving, and that while good works are meritorious and rewarded in heaven it is only done when it is enabled by the grace of faith. In any form of Christianity you can have faith and good works, and faith produces good works, but you cannot be saved by works alone. Thus sola fide.
https://www.lutheranworld.org/sites/default/files/Joint%20Declaration%20on%20the%20Doctrine%20of%20Justification.pdf

>>19170332
>when you read something you have to interpret it
Hence Protestants have different church bodies, methods of interpreting scripture, common creeds and confessions (which include ancient creeds) and catechisms, and also frequently quote from church fathers when it is appropriate. Sola Scriptura means the Bible is the sole INFALLIBLE authority on faith. It allows for more interpretation and development of doctrine provided it can be "normed" by scripture.

[Anonymous No.19170935]

>>19170022
Are you actually interested in an answer or have you already made up your mind OP?

[Anonymous No.19171284]

>>19170022
Better question, why didn't Protestants remove James from the Bible like they did for other books?

[Anonymous No.19171355]

>>19170453
> also frequently quote from church fathers when it is appropriate
The Church Fathers did not accept Sola Fide or Sola Scriptura

[Anonymous No.19171360]

>>19170248
Salvation outside the Church

[Anonymous No.19171439]

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

John 14:15 If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments.

What else could one take away from this, except that salvation is by faith alone, but faith naturally brings about good works? This is confirmed by James

[Anonymous No.19171446]

>>19170935
No, I am genuinely interested. I find myself drawn to the concepts of fideism and sola code, but I don’t know how I can reconcile those believes to James 2

[Anonymous No.19171451]

>>19171446
*sola fide, not sola code

[Anonymous No.19171474]

>>19170045
If you read the gospel of Matthew, you'll see that Jesus's coming was foretold in the old testament

[Anonymous No.19171481]

>>19170045
The Book of Mormon, you filthy nigger

[Anonymous No.19171512]

>>19171446
Protestants find a justification as sinner/justification as believer distinction between the writings of Paul in Romans and James' epistle.

From Matthew Poole's commentary
>Lastly, we may distinguish of the person that is said to be justified; either he is a sinner, in the state of nature; or a believer, in a state of grace; whence ariseth the two-fold justification here mentioned. The justification of a sinner, in the remission of his sins through the imputation of Christ's righteousness, and acquitting him from the condemnation of the law, is the justification properly so called, and which Paul speaks so much of; and this is by faith only. The justification of a believer, is his absolution from condemnation by the gospel, and the charge of infidelity, or hypocrisy, and is no other than that declarative justification James speaks of, or an asserting and clearing up the truth and reality of the former justification, which is done by good works, as the signs and fruits of the faith, by which that former is obtained: and this is but improperly called justification. The former is an absolution from the general charge of sin, this from the special charge of hypocrisy, or infidelity. A sinner's great fear (when first awakened to a sense of his sin and misery) is of a holy law, and a righteous Judge ready to condemn him for the violation of that law; and so his first business is to look to Christ by faith for righteousness, and remission of sin. But when he is justified by that righteousness, men may charge him with hypocrisy or unbelief, and so may the devil and conscience too, when faith is weak, or a temptation strong; and therefore his next work is to clear himself of this imputation, and to evidence the truth and reality of his faith and justification in God's sight, which must be done by producing his obedience and good works, as the indications of his faith; and hereby he proves that he hath indeed closed with the promise of the gospel, and so is clear of the charge of not believing it, which was false; as well as (by consequence) is justified from the charge of sin against the law, which was true.

[Anonymous No.19171519]

>>19171512
>To conclude, therefore, here is no opposition between Paul and James. Paul speaks of Abraham's being justified as a sinner, and properly, and so by faith only; James speaks of his being justified as a believer, improperly, and so by works; by which not his person was justified, but rather his faith declared to be justifying: nor he constituted righteous, but approved as righteous. In a word, what God hath joined must not be divided, and what he hath divided must not be joined. He hath separated faith and works in the business of justification, and therefore we must not join them in it, as Paul disputes; and he hath joined them in the lives of justified persons, and there we must not separate them, as James teaches. Paul assures us they have not a co-efficiency in justification itself; and James assures us they may, and ought to have, a co-existence in them that are justified. If the reader desire further satisfaction yet, let him consult Turretine de Concordia Pauli et Jacobi, where he may find much more to the same purpose as hath been here said.

[Anonymous No.19171537]

>>19170022
James 2:24 does not argue against salvation by faith alone. Rather, it argues against a salvation that is alone, a salvation devoid of good works and obedience to God’s Word. James’s point is that we demonstrate our faith by what we do (James 2:18). Regardless of the absence of the precise phrase “faith alone,” the New Testament definitely teaches that salvation is the product of God’s grace in response to our faith. “Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? . . . On that of faith” (Romans 3:27). There is no other requirement.

[Anonymous No.19171679]

A Reformed View of James 2:24 by Joe Heschmeyer
https://shamelesspopery.com/a-reformed-view-of-james-224/

[Anonymous No.19171684]

>>19171474
>>19170097
>>19170050
Bible was corrupted though. Haven't you all read the Qur'an? Allah exposed the Jews for their wobbling with scripture.

[Anonymous No.19171694]

>>19171684
Where does the Quran say the Bible is corrupted?

[Anonymous No.19171708]

>>19171694
"Among the Jews are those who distort words from their [proper] usages and say, "We hear and disobey" and "Hear but be not heard" and "Ra'ina," twisting their tongues and defaming the religion. And if they had said [instead], "We hear and obey" and "Wait for us [to understand]," it would have been better for them and more suitable. But Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few." (4:46)

[Anonymous No.19171712]

>>19171708
That doesn't say the Bible was corrupted. The verse doesn't even say the word Bible.

[Anonymous No.19171732]

>>19171694
>>19171712
"So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn." (2:79)

[Anonymous No.19171743]

>>19171732
Can you tell me where this says the Bible is corrupted?

[Anonymous No.19171750]

>>19171743
do you not believe the bible is scripture?

[Anonymous No.19171758]

>>19171750
Yes, so I'm very concerned here. Could you please tell me how that verse is saying the Bible is corrupted?

[Anonymous No.19171775]

>>19171758
not him but use your head you dumb christcuck

[Anonymous No.19171781]

>>19171758
If you don't know how to read, than there's nothing I can do. I do not have the trick of being clear to someone who acts stupid.

[Anonymous No.19171786]

>>19170022
How do Catholicucks contend with my Revelations 2? Sola fide that my nigga

[Anonymous No.19171815]

>>19171679
>https://shamelesspopery.com/a-reformed-view-of-james-224

nice link. ta.

[Anonymous No.19171834]

>>19171775
>>19171781
Can you just tell me where the verse says the Bible is corrupted? It clearly says the Quran is corrupted.

[Anonymous No.19172844]

>>19171439
That is also the catholic view as taught in the catechism.
Justification, the process by which God declares us to be righteous before Him, is a gift from God. It can never be earned.

Thinking that justification can be earned is a Pelegian heresy that was dealt with by the catholic church in the 5th Century.

Here we have a simple misunderstanding. Catholics have a problem with Martin Luther and his definition of Faith alone which is disgusting (I recommend St. John Fisher and his refutations of Luther's works.)
The doctrine of sola fide or "faith alone" asserts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith or belief alone, to the exclusion of all human efforts or works. This is Luther's teaching.

Catholics also believe in Faith alone but Faith that naturally results in works. You can't do works if you have no faith, and you can't have faith if you don't do any works (works are done through a multitude of different means), simple as.

[Anonymous No.19174281]

>>19172844
As I recall, the Catechism of the Council of Trent explains the Catholic position on justification pretty well. Here is a summary of that teaching:

>https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/justification-doctrine-of-council-of-trent-12365

One of the most important differences is that Catholics believe that when we are justified, it really changes us - justification is 'infused', it is not merely a kind of legal declaration, as Luther and Calvin believed.

>The Catholic teaching is that justification means the reception of (sanctifying) grace for the first time.
>This grace changes us, making us share in the divine nature (2 Peter 1. 4).
>It gives us the basic ability to take part in the face to face vision of God in the next life (1 Cor 13:12).
>The soul becomes even now the temple of the Holy Spirit: 1 Cor 6:19.

For a detailed analysis, see:
https://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/09/does-the-bible-teach-sola-fide/

https://www.calledtocommunion.com/2019/09/how-are-we-saved/

[Anonymous No.19174396]

>>19170045
Daniel 3

[Anonymous No.19175604]

I thought the theology of "New Perspective on Paul" made protestants flee from Sola Fide.

But apparently they just call it heresy and keep going with Luther's misconceptions

[N E M O . !!GgBWHLRiayD No.19176538]

It has been said that whenever one regards, or refers to, oneself as a king, or as a prince —implying the magnanimous Sofic fire that these titles properly signify—, in the presence of a "Protestant", he immediately loses all of the remaining blood from his malnourished face, and faints on the spot.

[Anonymous No.19176758]

>>19170022
Thanks for conveniently ignoring the entire context of James 2. He was writing to a church of antinomianists, so he emphasized that a telltale marker that you have faith is good works. He never says that works are required for salvation, however. Works are the FRUIT of faith, but not the root.

Now why don't you read Romans again. You'll find that Paul is talking directly to you, phariseebro.

[Anonymous No.19177627]

The entire James 2:14–26 passage is about proving the genuineness of your faith by what you do. A genuine salvation experience by faith in Jesus Christ will inevitably result in good works (cf. Ephesians 2:10). The works are the demonstration and proof of faith (James 2:18). A faith without works is useless (James 2:20) and dead (James 2:17); in other words, it is not true faith at all. Salvation is by faith alone, but that faith will never be alone.

While James 2:24 is the only verse that contains the precise phrase “faith alone,” there are many other verses that do, in fact, teach salvation by faith alone. Any verse that ascribes salvation to faith/belief, with no other requirement mentioned, is a declaration that salvation is by faith alone. John 3:16 declares that salvation is given to “whoever believes in Him.” Acts 16:31 proclaims, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.” Ephesians 2:8 says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith.” See also Romans 3:28; 4:5; 5:1; Galatians 2:16; 3:24; Ephesians 1:13; and Philippians 3:9.

[Anonymous No.19178268]

The Debate Over James 2: Catholic or Protestant View

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDNPHuCsEms

[Anonymous No.19178286]

>>19171684
Even Islam says that Jesus was one of the 5 major prophets and was prophesized. Just that he wasnt the son of god. So I dont see your point here.

[Anonymous No.19178498]

>>19170022
But that's really besides the point. The real point is that I'm not believing in things that aren't even in the Bible. Things like popes, purgatory, mortal sins, venial sins, monks, icons, relics, papal bulls, indulgences, works-salvation, holy wars, mariology and many other false inventions that demonstrate quite obviously that the devil has broken through your gates long ago. While you may think that there are problems with the Protestant understandings of justification, it really pales in comparison with the depravity of Rome.

Luther and Calvin may not be perfect, but Luther and Calvin only claimed to be men. Your popes however claim to be angels, but they are really Pharisees and devils. So we don't need to agree with Luther to refute you.

[Anonymous No.19178514]

>>19170045
>Jesus is literally NOWHERE in it
Did you try reading every single part that says "Lord" and "God".
The Father and The Son are one in the same.