/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.19121843]

Has anyone here unironically read Marx?

[Anonymous No.19121856]

Yes

[Anonymous No.19121858]

Only bits and pieces. Do you have any idea how many words this nigga wrote?

[Anonymous No.19121864]

>>19121843
Yes. Then ironically to see if there was anything more to squeeze out of the orange.

[Anonymous No.19121970]

Only the Communist Manifesto, I haven't got the time to waste on reading Das Kapital so I've only read excerpts.

[Anonymous No.19122001]

>>19121843
How can I read Marx when he didn't write?

[Anonymous No.19122399]

>>19121843
no

[Anonymous No.19122421]

you don't just read marx
you experience marx

[Anonymous No.19122424]

>>19121843
Yes, Marx has some good observations. Critical theory/Frankfurt School is better and less outdated tho.

[Anonymous No.19122486]

A liberal Muslim homosexual ACLU lawyer professor and abortion doctor was teaching a class on Karl Marx, known atheist.

"Before the class begins, you must get on your knees and worship Marx and accept that he was the most highly-evolved being the world has ever known, even greater than Jesus Christ!"

At this moment, a brave, patriotic, pro-life Navy SEAL champion who had served 1500 tours of duty and understood the necessity of war and fully supported all military decision made by the United States stood up and held up a rock.

"How old is this rock?"

The arrogant professor smirked quite Jewishly and smugly replied "4.6 billion years, you stupid Christian"

"Wrong. It’s been 5,000 years since God created it. If it was 4.6 billion years old and evolution, as you say, is real… then it should be an animal now"

The professor was visibly shaken, and dropped his chalk and copy of Origin of the Species. He stormed out of the room crying those liberal crocodile tears.

The students applauded and all registered Republican that day and accepted Jesus as their lord and savior. An eagle named "Small Government" flew into the room and perched atop the American Flag and shed a tear on the chalk. The pledge of allegiance was read several times, and God himself showed up and enacted a flat tax rate across the country.

The professor lost his tenure and was fired the next day. He died of the gay plague AIDS and was tossed into the lake of fire for all eternity.

Semper Fi

[Anonymous No.19122572]

>>19122486
classic

[Anonymous No.19122655]

pryn8

[Anonymous No.19122665]

Yes

[Anonymous No.19122685]

>>19121843
No, I just complain about trannies on Twitter and use liberal and Marxist interchangeably. I periodically pretend to admit he had some good ideas to mix it up a little, but it's only September and I usually switch my talking points around February.

[Anonymous No.19122710]

>>19122685
Taking my political opinions serious was really a good move - I once actually were quite a bit like this... Read Marx. Get good.

[Anonymous No.19122730]

Yes. He’s not a top 10 sociologist. Doesn’t rank as a philosopher at all.

[Anonymous No.19122744]

>>19122730
>Doesn’t rank as a philosopher at all.
So much great philosophy is just footnotes to his work - but footnotes philosophically superior to the work itself

[Anonymous No.19122750]

>>19122710
I don't take advice from trannies, go back to twitter.

[Anonymous No.19122751]

>>19122486

That actually made me chuckle. Thanks.

[Anonymous No.19122760]

>>19122730
https://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2009/05/the-20-most-important-philosophers-of-all-time.html cope

[Anonymous No.19122894]

>>19121970
Yes. Never waste time on Marx. Understanding Capitalism is not so important after all, and even if for some reason you would understand it, the excellent Thomas Sowell suffice.
Seriously, why would anyone ever read Marx? We all know that his writting are outdated. I mean, i've never read him, but i know that for sure.

[Anonymous No.19122906]

>>19121843
I got his book on communism and haven't read it yet.

[Anonymous No.19122920]

>>19121858
I heard Marx's response to Stirner alone constituted more words than Stirner ever wrote.

[Anonymous No.19122933]

>>19121843
I don't read Jews.

[Anonymous No.19122939]

Irrelevant garbage.

Leftism does not work.

Leftists should kill themselves.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.19123176]

>>19122939
Ignorant seething is useless against the highly educated.

[Anonymous No.19123307]

>>19122730
probably because he was neither a sociologist nor a philosopher

[Anonymous No.19123323]

>>19121843
I am reading Kapital, one must know what makes your enemies tick. Communists are the number one threat to the USA’s internal stability so we must learn all we can about them, so when their attempt at revolution comes we can defeat them in the intellectual and physical spheres.

[Anonymous No.19123330]

>>19123323
>I am reading Kapital
no you're not
>, one must know what makes your enemies tick. Communists are the number one threat to the USA’s internal stability so we must learn all we can about them, so when their attempt at revolution comes we can defeat them in the intellectual and physical spheres.
ok

[Anonymous No.19123335]

>>19122730
sociology is a fake bourgeois science on par with economics

[Anonymous No.19123355]

>>19122894
What books by Thomas Sowell do you recommend anon?

[Anonymous No.19123559]

>>19122894
thomas sowell is more outdated now since 2008.

[Anonymous No.19123650]

>>19121858
It's called dextroamphetamine and actual celibacy (no masturbation, no sex, no looking and no thinking sexual thoughts). If you don't have a job and do both of these, you can read 25% of a volume a day and that's with note taking. Even with some downtime, it's entirely feasible to read all 50 volumes in a year. The problem isn't the quantity, the problem is you.

[Anonymous No.19123682]

>>19122424
>critical theory
>Frankfurt school
>good
No.

[Anonymous No.19123726]

>>19123355
Basic economics. He is an exceptional nigger.

[Anonymous No.19123758]

>b-b-but
>i-i-iit just happens to be the case that the labor inputs in commodity production are proportional to their market prices
The only question is if Marx is right or if Nick Land is.

[Anonymous No.19123773]

>>19121843
I read the first two volumes of the Penguin Capital series but couldn't motivate myself to start the third. Engels was a terrible editor and the first two volumes could have been cut down to a succinct 250 pages.

[Anonymous No.19123806]

>>19123650
>It's called dextroamphetamine
Are you telling me to take drugs and read Marx? lel
>no looking and no thinking sexual thoughts
Is it possible in this day and age without having to go live in a cave?

[Anonymous No.19123815]

>>19123773
>Engels was a terrible editor and the first two volumes could have been cut down to a succinct 250 pages.
Did Engels actually write something?
How was their relationship?

[Anonymous No.19123851]

>>19123815
Peasants war Germany
Condition working class England
Family private property state
Anti duhring

[Anonymous No.19123852]

>>19123815
Engels has some published stuff but I've never read any of it and he "co-authored" the communist manifesto, he pieced together the second and third volume of Capital after Marx died. He was a typical rich dandy/patron and probably spent most of his free time cleaning shit out of his ridiculous beard/mustache.

[Anonymous No.19123905]

>>19123815
Engels topped desu.

[Anonymous No.19123926]

>>19121843
Retroactively debunked by Hegel (pbuh)

[Anonymous No.19123937]

>>19121843
i prefer to call him angry santa

anyway i've read the letters where he talks about the "jewish nigger" LaSalle and read parts of Das Kapital
It's long winded gibs me dat u owe me cuz exploitation n sheeeit

[Anonymous No.19123940]

>>19123926
>Hegel
Retroactively refuted by himself.

[Anonymous No.19123945]

>>19123852
that beard is top tier, what are you talking about

[Anonymous No.19123948]

>>19123176
Leftists are just powerhungry sociopaths who'd rather spend time chastizing right-wingers for not buying into historical materialism than actually work. Napoleon already proved the fate of all revolutions and that if Louis would have ridden his white horse among the people he would have won. In some cases it is physically impossible to reason with self-described intellectuals.

[Anonymous No.19123960]

fuck that nigger marx

[Anonymous No.19123998]

>>19123852
>He was a typical rich dandy/patron and probably spent most of his free time cleaning shit out of his ridiculous beard/mustache.
Marx was such a lucky son of a bitch then. Sometimes I wish a had a rich friend like Engels. kek

[Anonymous No.19124012]

>>19123945
I decided to grow a walrus mustache that was tame compared to his as a COPE for going bald and eating was unbearable. This nigga had that over the top facial adornment before the mass production of straws so he would be completely incapable of even drinking let alone eating without making a mess of his facial hair.

[Anonymous No.19124083]

>>19121843
I used to read him, mainly some of his shorter works like the communist manifesto, gotha, 1844, wage labour and capital, etc. I once tried to tackle Das Capital but I stopped for some reason.
>>19122939
I don't know which retard originally came up with the Marx never worked meme he was an editor

[Anonymous No.19124104]

>>19123815
He ghost wrote a lot of Marx's journalistic output. Especially all. The stuff for the American journals. At that point in his career, Marx's English was very poor.

[Anonymous No.19124108]

/lit/ is not a Marxist board so of course people here have read Marx

[Anonymous No.19124120]

>>19124104
>At that point in his career
How old he was?

[Anonymous No.19124134]

>>19121843
Yeah, I had to, for college. From the Theses on Feuerbach, to all Das Kapital and Engels writings, because somehow they are part of Marx on some strange bizarre way.

[Anonymous No.19124167]

>>19124134
>Yeah, I had to, for college.
Which degree?

[Anonymous No.19124223]

>>19123355
Thomas Soiledpants - Basic gayonomics, paying rent by publishing and giving head

[Anonymous No.19124271]

>>19121843
Read the manifesto.
Regret buying at all.

[Anonymous No.19124296]

>>19122939
Impotent Amerimutt seething. Many such cases.

[Anonymous No.19124307]

>>19124012
I mean, obviously you are right that it must be a retarded pain in the ass to have facial hair like that, but it looks magnificent.

[Anonymous No.19124452]

>>19124296
the mere mention of marx makes the reactionaries tremble in fear

[Anonymous No.19124484]

>>19124452
the mere mention of hobbes makes marxists tremble in fear

[Anonymous No.19124517]

>>19124120
1852-1860
So in his 30s.

[Anonymous No.19124574]

>>19121843
You should, under no circumstance, read Marx. You've been warned.

[Anonymous No.19124587]

>>19124574
Why? If nothing else, his ideas had a massive impact on history.

[Anonymous No.19124639]

>>19124574
t. capitalist dog

[Anonymous No.19124674]

>>19124574
You absolutely should at least be familiar with the core of his ideas, at least if you ever plan on getting into debates with leftists without getting tripped up and wish to understand their worldview properly

[Anonymous No.19124734]

>>19124674
>>19124639
>>19124587
It's like injecting sabbatean frankist freemason poison directly in your skull.

[Anonymous No.19124743]

>>19124734
:|
You are the equivalent of an SJW who bursts into tearful rage at the mention of Jordan Peterson.

[Anonymous No.19124745]

>>19124734
do they at least give us cool hats if we join?

[Anonymous No.19124765]

>>19124734
lol wat marx was an atheist

[Anonymous No.19124767]

>>19124484
????
Wouldn't that be Hegelians as I would argue that Hegel's and Hobbes' political theories are more diametrically opposed? Marxism pretty much just borrows Hegel's conception of the state and adds the class element.

[Anonymous No.19124910]

>>19122939
youre not welcome here

[Anonymous No.19124911]

>>19124734
Totally. We all know that Marx was an illuminati 33rd Free mason. There's like, TONS of proofs.
INB4, but Marx wrote "on the jewish question". I don't care. It was a ploy to make people believe that he was anti-jew, when in fact he worked for the Kabbalah.
INB4, but Marx publicly criticized secret societies. Yes and? That's classic Pilpul.
Marx was part of a judeo-zionist conspiarcy whose aim is to rebuilt Solomon's Temple, and complete the protocols of Zion. The aim is to play between jewish Capitalism and jewish communism, in order to end with a jewish new world order. All this in an eschatological view, cumulated with jewish messianism, all order by the multimillenarian Sanhedrin.

[Anonymous No.19125226]

>>19121843
only his responses to Feuerbach's materialism in a religion class in highschool

[Anonymous No.19125455]

>>19125226
Based to read this in high school. Also, if you have some wits, you must have noticed that Marx believed in God.

[Anonymous No.19125649]

>>19122939
outstanding critique, how will leftists ever recover?

[Anonymous No.19125666]

>>19124167
Economics

[Anonymous No.19125689]

>>19125649
Thomas "nigger" Sowell, he always right. It's so good to see this nigger put the jew in his place. For how can someone who has never worked, speak in the name of workers. That's absurd. That's why i prefer right wing politics. They, at least, have worked.

[Anonymous No.19125718]

>>19121843
Yes. I just don't think any system will rid us of the soulless and petty establishment that mass manufacturing and nation-level identity has created, no matter what class is in charge

[Anonymous No.19125832]

>>19121843
Marx is very based, probably the most misrepresented author of all time

[Anonymous No.19125958]

>>19125718
>soulless
>nation-level identity
You better be a reactionary, faggot.

[Anonymous No.19125980]

>>19122424
get out

[Anonymous No.19127090]

>>19123650
The sad part of this post is that it's probably serious

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.19127108]

>>19125958
Outreach, you vanguardist clown! Outreach!

[Anonymous No.19127127]

>>19127108
You are a woman. Of course you don't have national identity.

[Anonymous No.19127146]

>>19127090
>getting stuff done is sad

[Anonymous No.19127153]

>>19125718
wtf are you even talking about, this is just words

[Anonymous No.19127469]

Marx doesn't have a metaphysics and yet he has the most sensible metaphysical position.

He is the end of philosophy as far as I'm concerned.

[Anonymous No.19127526]

>>19124484
I wonder what you and they would think of Karl Ludwig von Haller

[Anonymous No.19127562]

Historical materialism is the most thoroughly convincing theory ever conceived in a human brain.

[Anonymous No.19127566]

>>19127562
Lol

[Anonymous No.19127572]

>>19127469
He has an implicit metaphysics that functions almost exactly like every idealism prior

[Anonymous No.19127582]

>>19127572
That's because he was bourgeois. However, the action of the working class analysing itself in action to abolish itself, which Marx attempts to describe, is a useful metaphysics because it is:
a) contingent and arbitrary
b) only interested in demonstrating its truth value through social violence
c) necessarily reproduced by the system that attempts to maintain the working class as a non-proletariat: every defeat is a victory
d) nasty, rather than hopeful, see point c). You wake up to your family dead under a soviet tank, sent to crush communism by a Communist Party, and all you can do, as forced to do by the factory, is to start rebuilding the tools to do it again.

[Anonymous No.19127666]

>>19127582
>You wake up to your family dead under a soviet tank, sent to crush communism by a Communist Party
Your post is interesting, however, what has this to do with Classical marxism? We know that vanguardism is not classical marxism, which is synonym to libertarian marxism. Indeed, go check the characteristics of classical marxism and libertarian marxism. They are the same. Marx himself was a libertarian marxist, without even knowing it. That's what he meant by the end of his life, when he said "i am not a marxist". However, had he have discussion with todays (real) libertarian marxist, i think he would have agreed with them.

[Anonymous No.19127674]

>>19127666
With the one caveat being dictatorship of the proletariat.

[Anonymous No.19127684]

>>19127666
Have you ever considered that my interest in the Hungarian revolution is the working class communists who set their own streets on fire to stop tanks, and the few Soviet soldiers who joined them; rather than in the bourgeoisie LARPing as red managers who sent workers to kill workers?

>>19127674
The dictatorship of the proletariat as a class over all other classes is internally democratic as any study of workplace revolutionary councils demonstrates. Not a party, not a faction, but the class as a whole.

[Anonymous No.19127709]

>>19122939
>all these seething replies
based

[Anonymous No.19127725]

>>19127146
>"if you don't have a job"
> "getting stuff done"

How is it productive for you to spend so much time and energy reading marx? So you can tell people that you've done it and argue with people on the internet about it? Is this bait?

[Anonymous No.19127742]

>>19127666
what the fuck is "vanguardism" and what does it have to do with the Russian counter-revolution?
stop basing your thinking on made up -isms like a redditor and go read a book

>>19127684
>The dictatorship of the proletariat as a class over all other classes is internally democratic
no, proletarian organization is never democratic in principle. a scab should never have the same say as the most militant worker
>Not a party, not a faction, but the class as a whole.
"class as a whole" can't do anything concretely and governance by "everyone and no one" only becomes possible in a fully communist society. for all the struggle preceding that the proletariat naturally develops an organ which it uses for leading its struggle and running its dictatorship, i.e. its class party, such as the ones Marx and Engels were part of, The Communist League and the IWMA.

[Anonymous No.19127821]

>>19127742
>what the fuck is "vanguardism"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanguardism
>>19127742
>no, proletarian organization is never democratic in principle. a scab should never have the same say as the most militant worker
What is the Paris commune (1871), and why was is democratic?
> for all the struggle preceding that the proletariat naturally develops an organ which it uses for leading its struggle and running its dictatorship
Spotted the vanguardist Marxist-leninist.
>its class party, such as the ones Marx and Engels were part of, The Communist League and the IWMA.
Guess you haven't read Civil war in france (1871), from Marx, were he make an apology of the paris commune self-management.
The old Marx was clearly for self-governance.
Make it's time for you to read more from Marx than the communist manifesto, and the first volume of Das Kapital.

[Anonymous No.19127854]

>>19123307
Clearly he was the messiah.

[Anonymous No.19127885]

>>19127742
>naturally
how idealist of you. Maybe you should read more history of our movement. Particularly how council formation works, and how political tendencies and work places interact. S Pirani (2008) The Russian Revolution in Retreat is an excellent archival study of Bolshevik local leaders analysis of multiparty workers councils, and their failure in them. https://www.routledge.com/The-Russian-Revolution-in-Retreat-192024-Soviet-Workers-and-the-New/Pirani/p/book/9780415546416

[Anonymous No.19127950]

>>19127885
>how idealist of you.
how is determining the necessities in concrete processes idealist? it's just regular science. at a certain point there's no other way for the proletariat to further its interests than by developing a strong organ capable of executing the class seizure of power and the class dictatorship, so it naturally does that.
and from this follows in a straightforward manner that everyone who wants to diffuse proletarian power before classes are done away with works against the necessary conditions of the proletariat's liberation
>Maybe you should read more history of our movement.
of "our movement", written by a bourgeois university professor. haha. yes, can't wait to read that

[Anonymous No.19127954]

>>19127854
no, he was a modest communist

[Anonymous No.19127962]

>>19121843
You can Marx deez nuts lmao

[Anonymous No.19127976]

>>19122486
And that students name.. was ALBERT EINSTEIN.

[Anonymous No.19127987]

>>19122760
>some blog
Wow BTFO

[Anonymous No.19127988]

>>19123176
>tripfag defending Marx
Tells you everything you need to know

[Anonymous No.19128031]

>>19127950
>and from this follows in a straightforward manner that everyone who wants to diffuse proletarian power before classes are done away with works against the necessary conditions of the proletariat's liberation
Yet self management have worked in the past. You Marxist leninst are the ultimate gatekeepers of the proletarian emancipation. Marx condemned your shenanigans, as well s Rosa Luxemburg, Karl Kautsky, many other, and us Libertarian Marxists, or classical marxists.
Self management, or nothing.

[Anonymous No.19128044]

>>19124674
>debates with leftists without getting tripped up
You dont need to read a single line of text do win a debate with leftists. Just understand that their only motivation is resentment and envy and they have no qualms about contradicting themselves multiple times in a single sentence. If you press them to define their terms and express their views in a coherent logical syntax they will be unable to. Most of their game is using jargon and relying on the ignorance and insecurity of their opponent to weave together nice sounding, but utterly nonsensical propositions that will easily dupe the average pseudointellectual who doesn’t want to seem dumb and must pretend to understand them.
Leftism is more of an aesthetic than an ideology. And it can never be confused with a philosophy. It’s like an anti-philosophy. The influence of rabbinic Judaism has woven it’s way into the leftist intellect and thus they rely heavily on pilpul. They exploit the ambiguity of language, using the same word to mean multiple things so that if you challenge them on one interpretation they will laugh at claim to have been saying something completely different which you obviously didn’t understand because you’re too stupid! Just call this bullshit out and they will never win.

[Anonymous No.19128052]

>>19127666
>>19127674
>>19127684
>>19127742
>>19127821
Didn't Marx believe the workers would require a managerial class component under the dictatorship of the proletariat? Weydemeyer cited Robespierre's Comité de Salut Public as an example of bourgeois excision necessary for redistribution. This (arbitrarily redefined) dictatorship is somehow supposed to abolish classes conceptually, which is how we get Priestland's "ultra-democracy" by way of Lenin. But if you've read Đilas, you intuit that any degree of oversight automatically instantiated a class component according to degree of privation and privilege afforded by the system, making any dictatorship of the proletariat (Blanqui) impossible by way of asymmetric access. I'm retarded, though. Can a "real" Marxist/Communist comment?

[Anonymous No.19128085]

>>19128044
Based

[Anonymous No.19128148]

>>19128031
>Yet self management have worked in the past
yes, worked for capital
>You Marxist leninst
I'm not a ML. MLs are as much anti-proletarian as you anarchists or ultralefts or whatever label is chic today
>Self management, or nothing
self-management without political seizure of power, proletarian dictatorship and the destruction of mercantile economy means simply relieving the bourgeoisie from having to manage enterprises themselves. it's even more of a cucked situation than the typical one
and self-management in proletarian dictatorship means independence from the proletarian dictatorship, which negates any dictatorship in the first place, or any real proletarian class action whatsoever. a network of independent enterprises divided according to bourgeois production relations is not proletarian organization but proletarian disorganization

>>19128052
>Didn't Marx believe the workers would require a managerial class component under the dictatorship of the proletariat?
what even is a managerial class component? division of labour can't be abolished instantly, so in a DOTP some people will inevitably deal more with "managerial"-like tasks than other people. is that what you mean?

[Anonymous No.19128460]

>>19122486
Irony is a double edged sword

[Anonymous No.19128868]

>>19128148
How the fuck does the abolishment of the division of labour even work? What does that even look like?

[Anonymous No.19128999]

>>19128868
its abolition or just the division of labour itself? lack of division of labour means that people don't have careers and instead work at several different and diverse kinds of tasks. in order for it to be abolished, labour-power must cease to be a commodity, which requires that production be realized according to a social-wide plan that will include the distribution of the total available social labor between various tasks that society needs to perform in order to fulfill its total needs.

[Anonymous No.19129068]

>>19122939
>Making retard pseuds seethe
Based.

[Anonymous No.19129079]

>>19128999
>which requires that production be realized according to a social-wide plan that will include the distribution of the total available social labor between various tasks that society needs to perform in order to fulfill its total needs.
This totally won't backfire massively. Totally.

[Anonymous No.19129090]

>be some dude in germany 20 million years ago
>postulate that long run prices of commodities are proportional to their labor inputs
>*cue infinite seething and counter seething*
He is worth reading if only to understand all the seethe

[Anonymous No.19129125]

>>19128999
Okay, what does that actually mean in practice now? Because it sounds like bullshit socialists fed to 19th century factory-workers that's not applicable to modern professions, unless you're seriously suggesting that the average 40-year-old McDonald's employee is a community leader and polymath, instead of a High school dropout and intermittent meth-user.
>labour-power must cease to be a commodity
This seems nonsensical. If something is being produced, or a service enacted, how is that not transactional? Transaction implies commodity.

[Anonymous No.19129178]

>>19127725
> So you can tell people that you've done it and argue with people on the internet about it?
Projection. Is this really the only reason you can fathom that people would want to read all the works of a particular author?

[Anonymous No.19129188]

>>19129125
>unless you're seriously suggesting that the average 40-year-old McDonald's employee is a community leader and polymath, instead of a High school dropout and intermittent meth-user.
1) one doesn't need to be a "community leader" and a polymath to do things other than serve fries
2) I'm not suggesting anything about 40-year-old McDonald's employees, because division of labour wouldn't be done away in any significant degree before all 40 year olds retired even if the revolution started tomorrow
>If something is being produced, or a service enacted, how is that not transactional? Transaction implies commodity.
no, the category of "being transactional" is so abstract that it easily subsumes things that don't involve commodities. for example, if I'm camping with friends and we decide that half of us will make a fire but another half will go get supplies, you can describe it as "being transactional", but that doesn't mean it involves any buying and selling between us.

[Anonymous No.19129281]

>>19129188
It kind of is what you're suggesting - that cooperative community action necessitates a degree of interoperable ability. However, the normative capacity of the average worker means that this isn't feasible (see my contrived example).
>buying/selling
You divided groups for labour-activities (fire-starting and supplies) and optimized the outcome. I don't really see an appreciable difference.

[Anonymous No.19129368]

>>19129281
>It kind of is what you're suggesting - that cooperative community action necessitates a degree of interoperable ability. However, the normative capacity of the average worker means that this isn't feasible (see my contrived example).
you talk like you just walked off your first philosophy lecture. yes, the average worker today has been brought up to be a one-sided wage slave. abolishing the division of labour will require new generations raised humanly to become many-sided individuals, with experience in doing diverse jobs and acquiring diverse skills from the time they're teens. that's why I already told you that it won't happen immediately.
>I don't really see an appreciable difference.
the difference is that one involves exchange of private property according to its market price and the other doesn't

[Anonymous No.19129424]

>>19129368
I "talk" like an average person with an average mind. Anyway, your contention that the worker is a wage-slave because they're monodimensionally enculturated isn't a particularly valuable (or valid) insight. This all resembles the CRA with elements of Juche (unsurprising, really).
>exchange of private property
What?

[Anonymous No.19129444]

>>19123650
where do you get your amphetamine?
how long of celibacy does it take to improve reading speed?

[Anonymous No.19129456]

>>19122399
This, I doubt even a single person has read all of the MEGA, even incomplete as it stands today.

[Anonymous No.19129577]

>>19129424
>your contention that the worker is a wage-slave because they're monodimensionally enculturated isn't a particularly valuable (or valid) insight
good, because I'm saying not that but the exact reverse of that
>exchange of private property
>What?
it means that one entity cedes something that up to that moment has been recognized by the relevant authority as being under this entity's exclusive control to another entity which does the same with another thing in return

[Anonymous No.19129705]

>>19128052
>Didn't Marx believe the workers would require a managerial class component under the dictatorship of the proletariat?
No. That come from an american understanding of Marx, coming from video watching. Read Civil war in France (1871). The english wikipedia article is too shirt, and doesn't explain. Here is a translation from the french wikipedia of dictatoship of the proletariat. Translation from DeepL
"A direct democracy
The concept is thus presented as being close to direct democracy.
However, there are two specificities [ref. needed]: the dictatorship of the proletariat requires a prior proletarian revolution which leads to the seizure of popular power. On the other hand, power will be exercised by a single social class, the proletariat.
Friedrich Engels sees the Paris Commune as an application of the dictatorship of the proletariat. Thus, with this example, this dictatorship would be organized in a democratic way with elected officials elected by universal suffrage and revocable. "

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictature_du_prol%C3%A9tariat#Une_d%C3%A9mocratie_directe

[Anonymous No.19129734]

>>19128148
>a network of independent enterprises divided according to bourgeois production relations is not proletarian organization but proletarian disorganization
I never said a self managment of commodity, money, wage labor, Capital accumulation. On the opposite, i meant self managment of classless, commodity less society, based around the needs of everybody.

[Anonymous No.19129745]

>>19128868
Not him, but simply put, everybody would accomplish tasks, without specialisation. For example, you would monday collect the garbage, tuesday, work at the factory, wednesday
teach the kids at the school, thursday work the fields etc...
It make the commodity apologists ultra seethe. But it's the only way to get rid of our shit society for sure, once and for all.

[Anonymous No.19129751]

>>19129705
Oh ok, so he's just a liberal. Good to know.

[Anonymous No.19129758]

>>19129079
You know what is currently backfiring? Capitalism. And it will backfire even more, in the next 10 year cycle crisis (2030).
The choice is pretty simple. Eat the bugs, get the vax, live in the pod, or abolish commodity, in a simpler society, but free from Capitalist oppression.

[Anonymous No.19129764]

>>19129745
sounds retarded. What if I don't want to collect the garbage?

[Anonymous No.19129771]

>>19121843
So I was a socialist (granted this was when I didn't read books, I played vidya and did college) so I finally decided to hunker down and read this thing.

Long story short, I stopped being a socialist and started to be somewhere in the middle between socialist and capitalist. I respect MOST of his thoughts, although some I don't think apply to today's modern economy. I think if socialism was fully applied during the industrial revolution things would be better, but it's too late for a communist revolution. Although I haven't read much else besides Capital, just kinda started reading this summer after I turned my life around from being addicted to vidya.

[Anonymous No.19129778]

>>19121843
What I have read of leftist works (Marx/Bakunin) has made me feel that fascism is the inevitable end state of society. The question is not “will fascism win?”, it is “who will win and implement fascism?”. I do not like fascism, so I choose not to read leftist works.

[Anonymous No.19129820]

>>19129771
>some point in the middle of socialism and capitalism.
You ain't read shit man.

[Anonymous No.19129832]

>>19129734
that's weird then, because you responded with the self-management catchword explicitly to my comment on the time "before classes are done away with" >>19128031

>>19129764
it depends. but, for example, if it's agreed that it would be best if everyone just did 4 hours of garbage collecting a month because everyone generally wants to do as little of it as possible, then if you refused to do your part you'd probably just not get your food for that day or something.

[Anonymous No.19129932]

>>19129758
>You know what is currently backfiring? Capitalism.
It's not backfiring, it's going exactly as planned.
>And it will backfire even more, in the next 10 year cycle crisis (2030).
If the 2030 plan is anything to go by, capitalism will be abandoned, mostly because the structure of power has grown in such a way as to not need it anymore if not to calm the neoserfs down. Imagine Plato's Republic but big tech is on top. Capitalism is morphing into dataism, just like feudalism morphed into capitalism.
> abolish commodity, in a simpler society, but free from Capitalist oppression.
That's not Marxian socialism, that's reactionary idealism. Society can't become simpler by virtue of man's potentia, it just keeps growing more and more complex, an everchanging vortex of power sustained by a clear centre and tides opposing each other, both belonging and forming the whole.

[Anonymous No.19129953]

>>19129751
I don't know what classless self-management of the proletariat has to do with Capitalistic class based liberals.

[Anonymous No.19129990]

>>19129953
>classless
>of the proletariat
come on, just go read a book already instead of incoherently throwing around keywords and wikipedia quotes on an anime imageboard. preferably make it one by Marx, or at least some other communist instead of one a paid ideological functionary of the bourgeoisie

[Anonymous No.19129993]

>>19129990
*one by a paid ideological functionary

[Anonymous No.19130018]

>>19129932
>>You know what is currently backfiring? Capitalism.
>It's not backfiring, it's going exactly as planned.
Negative interest rates, market saturation, financial crisis due to massive fictitious Capital, not backfiring for you.
>If the 2030 plan is anything to go by, capitalism will be abandoned, mostly because the structure of power has grown in such a way as to not need it anymore if not to calm the neoserfs down. Imagine Plato's Republic but big tech is on top. Capitalism is morphing into dataism, just like feudalism morphed into capitalism.
Well unfortunately, i have to agree. The thing is, the aim is to make this the more decentralized possible. In any case, about the neoserfs, there is a social trend of wagies hating their life, and wanting something else. And this something else is certainly not bugs, pods, chips, and virtual reality.
https://iteroni.com/watch?v=UrEUzKTt7j0

About a simpler society, it had already happened in the past. Early feudalism is indeed, simpler than late roman empire. Also, when i meant simpler, it's not necessarily going back to the early 1900s. Less division of labor could be achieve through technology. E.G: Uber like services (car driving, delivery, different servicies), making people earn labor vouchers, which could be exchanged against consumption, on a 1:1 labor time ratio (you work 1 hour, you can have access to one hour labor equivalent of various products or services, without Capitalists taking their profits).

[Anonymous No.19130036]

>>19129990
I have read the 1848 manuscript, the origin of family, Das Capital book 1, 2, 3, the critic of the Gotha program, socialism, utopian and scientific, thesis on feuerbarch, study on early christianism (Engels). Still many books from Marx and Engels to read, but it's more than the average /lit poster.

[Anonymous No.19130045]

>>19130036
>but it's more than the average /lit poster.
well I definitely can't disagree with that

[Anonymous No.19130106]

>>19130018
>Negative interest rates, market saturation, financial crisis due to massive fictitious Capital, not backfiring for you.
Capital is now useless to the former-capitalists. Data is now the main metric and tool of power. Profit is meaningless to those at the top, but is essential to those at the bottom.
>In any case, about the neoserfs, there is a social trend of wagies hating their life, and wanting something else.
Wagies are inferiors, they fall into an easy nichilism and are the biggest supporters of the system, even if they don't realize it. Wait for automation to supplant them, they will be passively graze the digital fields and actively defend their shephards.
>About a simpler society, it had already happened in the past. Early feudalism is indeed, simpler than late roman empire.
Civilizational collapses are spontaneous, they're not voluntary. Nobody will want to put themselves and their (digitally) loved ones in danger, they're fine with a stagnating happiness and a slow decline. Do you have any idea how many people would have to die in order for your ideal to take root?
> Less division of labor could be achieve through technology. E.G: Uber like services (car driving, delivery, different servicies), making people earn labor vouchers, which could be exchanged against consumption, on a 1:1 labor time ratio (you work 1 hour, you can have access to one hour labor equivalent of various products or services, without Capitalists taking their profits).
Labor value does exist, but you overstimate it compared to all the other values and think it can easily be quantified through time. Your system is more complex than you actually want it to be, and is a relic of an era soon to die. Socialists (if they didn't already) will essentially become like old school reactionaries today, internal dialectics agents which have outlived their usefulness. Maybe another ideology will take socialism's role in the new era, but it will not be Marxian socialism.

[Anonymous No.19130138]

>>19123176
based Neo-bourgeois! truly you are in touch with the working class masses and their values!

[Anonymous No.19130291]

>>19130106
>Do you have any idea how many people would have to die in order for your ideal to take root?
We are all going to die anyway.

[Anonymous No.19130320]

>>19129281
>However, the normative capacity of the average worker means that this isn't feasible (see my contrived example).
Haven't we spent like 99% of our existence as hunter gatherers doing multiple jobs within a tribe? I think you're underestimating humanity here.

[Anonymous No.19130382]

>>19130106
>Data is now the main metric and tool of power.
Well there is decentralized data storage and mining project. Not everything has to be owned by someone, and organized centrally.
>Civilizational collapses are spontaneous, they're not voluntary.
Yes. What will precipitate the fall of Capitalism is not wagies not wanting to be wagies anymore, but the collapse of Capitalism due to the tendency of the rate of profit to fall. Once this Capitalism is down, something has to replace it. It will probably some sort of communal mode of production, since something based around Capital accumulation cannot function anymore (TRPF).
>Nobody will want to put themselves and their (digitally) loved ones in danger, they're fine with a stagnating happiness and a slow decline. Do you have any idea how many people would have to die in order for your ideal to take root?
It's not the proletarians who will attack first. They already have been attacked. Didn't ripost, sure. That could still happen.
>Wagies are inferiors, they fall into an easy nichilism and are the biggest supporters of the system,
Right now, sure. 40 years from now, perhaps not. Same this that happened to the nobility could happen to the merchants (Capitalists).
>Maybe another ideology will take socialism's role in the new era, but it will not be Marxian socialism.
Still, it's living, and living a revival.

Schizo mode on: maybe you'll go to the timeline with big data, 4th industrial revolution, the chip, virtual reality, more sleeping than ever proles and i'll switch to a timeline with proles accessing class consciousness, once and for all.

[Anonymous No.19130530]

>>19129832
>you'd probably just not get your food for that day or something
Who's going to give a shit? These are such retardedly liberal assumptions. What if someone kills someone else? A fight breaks out? Someone's stealing personal property or whatever the fuck? What if someone repeadetly rapes your mother at gunpoint? Do you just say "oh well, atleast I'm not oppressed"?

[Anonymous No.19130549]

Why do marxists always remind me of incels?

[Anonymous No.19130842]

>there are people in this very thread who think it's just a coincidence that the labor inputs into commodities are proportional to their market prices
we've traced the call, it's coming from inside the house

[Anonymous No.19131018]

>>19130549
Look up Dr. Gabor Mate. He is a based marxist

[Anonymous No.19131021]

>>19130549
huh?

[Anonymous No.19131046]

>>19130549
They want to seize the means of reproduction (women) and redistribute them. Very incel.

[Anonymous No.19131080]

>>19131018
I physically can't. I'm allergic to charlatans.
>>19131021
This whole impotent raving against contemporary class/sexual dynamics, oppression-talk and inability to take responsibility for oneself and decide to take charge claiming that they have no means to change their situation choosing instead to adopt and ideology fueled by resentment.

[v_v !!+e0M0fBMYzt No.19131099]

>>19131080
https://www.ejumpcut.org/archive/jc54.2012/SolesKunyoGeedom/
learn to not take things at face value

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.19131110]

>>19123948
Rightwingers are power hungry sociopaths.
If you’re in a rightwing ideology that values freedom (not statism) than you have much in common with actual “Leftists”.

>>19127988
Knee jerk response. Typical reactionary.

>>19130138
Again, you read too much into that little post.
You people always do this. You fail to see the nuance of some posts and make shit up on others.

[Anonymous No.19131155]

>>19131099
Learn to not waste your time reading nonsense.

[Anonymous No.19131209]

>>19131110
>no u
yeah, whatever.
>using the term "statism"
anarkiddies need to have their computers taken away from them. What happens if you get clobbered to a bloody pulp in your epic anarchist society?

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.19131242]

>>19131209
>no coherent retort
Okay.

[Anonymous No.19131264]

>>19131080
>inability to take responsibility for oneself and decide to take charge claiming that they have no means to change their situation choosing instead to adopt and ideology fueled by resentment.
Why do you always think classic marxists (or even market socialists), are loosers in life? Stop projecting, or make memetic assumptions in this regard.

[Anonymous No.19131270]

>>19131209
>What happens if you get clobbered to a bloody pulp in your epic anarchist society?
Get your second vax shot and shut up.

[Anonymous No.19131277]

>>19121843

[Anonymous No.19131334]

>>19130530
>Who's going to give a shit?
everyone, because they each individually have to do more garbage collecting now
>What if someone kills someone else?
they get locked up until they stop being a danger to people
>A fight breaks out?
those who are assigned to being on alert for keeping order on the given day in the given area get called and break it up
>Someone's stealing personal property or whatever the fuck?
maybe they get their consumption quota reduced to a bare minimum or even just below it for a few months to learn that doing stupid things can backfire
>What if someone repeadetly rapes your mother at gunpoint?
they get locked up or perhaps just executed
>Do you just say "oh well, atleast I'm not oppressed"?
nope

>>19130549
probably because you're projecting

[Anonymous No.19131367]

>>19131242
same
>>19131264
Because their rhetoric reminds me of incelism. From the endless talk about oppression, deterministic philosophy, as well as the general cuck anxiety, in the form of the bourgie cucking you from your rightful surplus or chad fucking your woman.
>>19131334
Who will do the assigning? Who will do the distributing? Who will decide how much a fucking consumption quota is? Shit, what if they start treating it as currency? How the hell will we even be able to know the truth of the crime and what punishment is deemed fit? Do laws exist?

[Anonymous No.19131404]

>>19131367
>Who will do the assigning? Who will do the distributing? Who will decide how much a fucking consumption quota is? Shit, what if they start treating it as currency? How the hell will we even be able to know the truth of the crime and what punishment is deemed fit? Do laws exist?
Typical guy fearing the unknown. Sure, there is unknow elements. However, one thing is not unknow: Capitalism will doom us all, if we don't do something about it.

[ist No.19131407]

>>19128148
andn good dieth

[ist No.19131410]

>>19129764
lieadopefiendclimbingtheallsofsucess

[ist No.19131416]

>>19131242
kkk

[ist No.19131422]

>>19130320
like a feather in the kind

[Anonymous No.19131432]

>>19124083
like urself. massaging the inner ego. kill or be illed acordding to the jc. like the invalid port call trollnet for hell. picture this . 147

[Anonymous No.19131461]

>>19131367
>Who will do the assigning? Who will do the distributing? Who will decide how much a fucking consumption quota is?
different people at different times. those are big tasks and in the absence of division of labour this means that most people will probably do it at one time or another.
>Shit, what if they start treating it as currency?
treating what as currency? certificates would be assigned by name and have short expiration dates.
>How the hell will we even be able to know the truth of the crime
by investigating it hopefully
>and what punishment is deemed fit?
by discussing it and considering all the relevant factors
>Do laws exist?
I imagine set procedures and rules would exist for things that come up often. if you consider this law then sure

[Anonymous No.19131497]

>>19131404
>here we see the leftist crimestop in action. As soon as he starts seeing the oxymoron in the term "stateless society" he ignores the questions about his anarchist utopia and accuses his interlocutor of being a coward for not buying into his ideology while in the next sentence claiming that the end is surely nigh.
There was never such a thing as a formation of a civil state at one spontaneous point in human history. In fact, our state is no new thing. It is simply the uninterrupted state of nature. It is little more than a natural sociable relationship between free man and servant which differs from other relationships only in the independence of it's head.

[Anonymous No.19131509]

>>19131461
Theocratic rule by control over education. Got it.

[Anonymous No.19131525]

>>19130320
hunter gatherers also had labor divisions though.

[Anonymous No.19131540]

>>19131461
>tfw you get to revive the nomadic lifestyle with the boys by raiding sedentary communes who are too retarded to develop a warrior class
Sounds exciting

[Anonymous No.19131552]

>>19131540
"warrior classes" are a direct result of sedentary communities

[Anonymous No.19131557]

>>19131509
there's no deity recognized as the supreme authority and no caste of priests ruling on its behalf. I might just as well call my dickhole theocratic and it would be about as apt
>>19131540
there are no "communes". there's the communist society that controls all the means of production and consequently all the products and therefore has all the power to end your larp before it even properly begins

[Anonymous No.19131621]

>>19131552
Based retard
>>19131557
>there's no deity recognized as the supreme authority and no caste of priests ruling on its behalf. I might just as well call my dickhole theocratic and it would be about as apt
There is no such thing as communism except in your sick head. And following your logic, there is nothing that controls anything as there is no permanent capable ruling class so some neo nomads taking advantage of your societal larp of human automatons and pillaging a society whose coordination capabilities are basically non-existent is just as likely.

[Anonymous No.19131651]

>>19131552
the guy deliberately called communes sedentary. Just that they were to retarded to follow with that whole "direct result"

[Anonymous No.19131655]

>>19131621
the fuck do you mean "coordination capabilities non-existent"? the communist society will produce according to a worldwide plan, which will by necessity be the biggest feat of coordination ever achieved by humanity.

[Anonymous No.19131679]

>>19131655
there won't be any worldwide plan as there won't be any permanent elite in your fantasy world which, despite being your personal world, I'm afraid is not immune to logic. Neo-nomads FTW!

[Anonymous No.19131927]

>>19129832
>you wont get your food that day
This is literally authoritarianism, I'm not going to be "assigned" to a job, this unironically sounds worse than capitalism and I hate capitalism fuck you.

[Anonymous No.19132270]

>In Sunday’s elections in Graz, Austria, the Communist Party romped to victory for the first time in history. Jacobin spoke to one of its winning candidates about how the party built a “red fortress” in the city.

We're coming back lads
https://jacobinmag.com/2021/09/communist-party-of-austria-kpo-graz-election-victory-red-fortress/

[Anonymous No.19132359]

>>19121843
Why would I? My non-binary, humanities professor told me all I need to know.

[Anonymous No.19132360]

>>19131110
>You read to much in my little post!
>You don't understand the nuances of my post!
Bit of double think their tranny

[Anonymous No.19132547]

>>19121843
The goberment of Bill Clinton in the 90s wanted to hype the dream of ''everyone should get a home'', so bankers viewed this as goberment will do anything to back up the housing bonds, which is why those bonds were seen as never risky, then bankers pushed them on their institutional clients, to get fat fees from those, & the bubble was humongous. Then it exploded because GDP will never rise like a fucking bubble.
1998: Sec. Andrew Cuomo Defends Affirmative Action Mortgage Policy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TWOPDN5Va0
Andrew Cuomo admits "affirmative action" determined housing policy during his tenure at HUD. New York's new governor defiantly explains how riskier loans with likely a higher default rate would be encouraged under the Clinton Administration. Of course the same policies were subsequently followed by the Bush Administration.
So to avoid the housing collapse, we are supposed to believe the SEC or some other group of regulators were supposed to have had the spine to overrule the stated Clinton Administration official policy on mortgage finance at the time? These regulators presumably were also supposed to have stood up to Congress, mainstream economists, academia & the entire media establishment?


25 People to Blame for the Financial Crisis
The good intentions, bad managers & greed behind the meltdown
http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/completelist/0,29569,1877351,00.html
President Clinton's tenure was characterized by economic prosperity & financial deregulation. Among his biggest strokes of free-wheeling capitalism was the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, which repealed the Glass-Steagall Act, a cornerstone of Depression-era regulation. He also signed the Commodity Futures Modernization Act, which exempted credit-default swaps from regulation. In 1995 Clinton loosened housing rules by rewriting the Community Reinvestment Act, which put added pressure on banks to lend in low-income neighborhoods.

[Anonymous No.19132559]

>>19129771
>socialist and capitalist.
They are both humanists, thus garbage

[Anonymous No.19132583]

>>19123650
Based and speedpilled!

[Anonymous No.19132597]

>>19121843
Barely he is very difficult to understand for someone coming to him for the first time. You really need to understand his influences. Supposedly you need to understand Hegel, but a two month study of classical political economy (Smith, Ricardo, et. al) was sufficient for me to have his 1844 manuscripts completely change how I see the world, whereas several months ago it mostly seemed like gibberish. Will get to Capital eventually but I have a long way to go.

[Anonymous No.19132603]

>>19122894
Quality b8

[Anonymous No.19132606]

>>19121843
i read harry potter once

[Anonymous No.19133528]

>>19131927
>This is literally authoritarianism
authoritarianism is a meme category that only serves as a bogeyman to be used by liberal politicians and ideologists.
communist society is not an agglomeration of independent atoms, but first and foremost a unity. and it organizes its activity as such a unity and doesn't cede power to upset this organization to whiny dudes who can't, e.g., do 4 hours a month of the work everyone else does because they feel they're better than everyone.
>I'm not going to be "assigned" to a job
if you live to see a proletarian dictatorship then you probably will, because that's wartime
>unironically sounds worse than capitalism
yes, because you're a lib
>and I hate capitalism fuck you
you still love an idealized version of it if your response to a communist society consists exactly of an expression of horror and a regurgitation of a bourgeois liberal catchword

>>19132270
that party is just socdem, and they're worse than regular socdem parties because the latter at least don't falsely pretend to be communist

[Anonymous No.19133563]

>>19133528
>>This is literally authoritarianism
>authoritarianism is a meme category that only serves as a bogeyman to be used by liberal politicians and ideologists.
>communist society is not an agglomeration of independent atoms, but first and foremost a unity. and it organizes its activity as such a unity and doesn't cede power to upset this organization to whiny dudes who can't, e.g., do 4 hours a month of the work everyone else does because they feel they're better than everyone.
>>I'm not going to be "assigned" to a job
>if you live to see a proletarian dictatorship then you probably will, because that's wartime
>>unironically sounds worse than capitalism
>yes, because you're a lib
>>and I hate capitalism fuck you
>you still love an idealized version of it if your response to a communist society consists exactly of an expression of horror and a regurgitation of a bourgeois liberal catchword
No.

[Anonymous No.19133839]

>>19133528
>communist society is not an agglomeration of independent atoms, but first and foremost an agglomeration of interdependent atoms
got it.
>and it(who?) organizes its(whom?) activity as such a unity and doesn't cede power to upset this organization
Do communists just not believe that power can only be held and exercised by certain people? Is this what happens when you believe that the state suddenly poofed into existence and wasn't already there from the very beginning in nature?

[Anonymous No.19133846]

>>19121843
Only the Manifesto.
Terrible, superficial stuff.
The very first sentence is wrong. Many philosophers did change the world (Plato, Aristotle, Machiavelli, Aquinas, Locke, to mention a few).

[Anonymous No.19133848]

>>19133846
If only Berkeley had been one of them. Orbis Tertius bröther

[Anonymous No.19133878]

>>19133839
>got it
liberal mental blockade in action
>Do communists just not believe that power can only be held and exercised by certain people?
yes, they do not believe that because there's no reason to believe it
>Is this what happens when you believe that the state suddenly poofed into existence and wasn't already there from the very beginning in nature?
do you instead believe that state poofed into existence when first prokaryotes were created?
>>19133846
which first sentence? did you just confuse the ending of the theses on Feuerbach with the Manifesto? some experts we have on /lit/

[Anonymous No.19133904]

>>19133878
The state came into existence when big monkey was able to kick small monkey ass but small monkey couldn't kick big monkey ass

You're welcome

[Anonymous No.19133913]

I've read a little bit of him. My main problem with him and the other commies is how terribly wrong they were about the trajectory of capitalism. They all said it would end very soon in their lifetimes but here we are. We keep breaking new ground and uncharted territory, still the commies of today are saying hurrr any day now capitalism cannot keep this shit up. And at this point I just think it's a little funny. It's never going to happen, capitalism is just too resilient, it works too well. There will be more busts, and more booms. It'll expand and contract but it will keep going. It's the most perfect mode of production ever put to work in human history and far more productive and efficient than shitty communism. It uses mans greed, and need for power for itself. It's actually fucking genius. Marx may be right about some things but it really doesn't matter. Fuck the collective and fuck losers too.

[Anonymous No.19133917]

>>19129178
why else would a normal person read the complete works of Marx?

[Anonymous No.19133938]

>>19122750
dude, transition - it's so much nicer to be a sis

[Anonymous No.19133948]

>>19122750
being cis is reddit

[Anonymous No.19133949]

>>19133904
is this what happens when you believe that the state suddenly poofed into existence?
>>19133913
>They all said it would end very soon in their lifetimes but here we are.
communists have to always be ready for that and assume that it'll happen earlier than they expect. that's the only way they can be prepared. it comes with the job
>capitalism is just too resilient, it works too well.
it working too well is exactly what makes it doomed

[Anonymous No.19133970]

>>19133949
Yeah that's all cope.

[Anonymous No.19134006]

>>19133949
>is this what happens when you believe that the state suddenly poofed into existence?
No, it always existed. The state never not existed. In fact the state is the only thing that exists.

[Anonymous No.19134085]

>>19122486
I was there in the room. After the professor left everybody clapped and thanked the brave Navy Seal for standing up for America.

[Anonymous No.19134108]

>>19121843
I would say that the problem of modern Marxists is that they only LARP as working class - because most of them are angry trust-fund college kids living on daddy's money who benefit the system.

Then I remembered that Marx himself never worked a day in his life, and created his theories living in his ivory tower using the money of other people to cover his living expenses.

Now the real question is: Why are intellectuals hell-bent of destroying the middle class? Why are they pretending to work for the sake of the "working class", when at the same time they look down on them?

[Anonymous No.19134116]

>>19134108
It's not even an open question at this point. The Russian struggles in the early 20th century made it obvious to anyone with an unimpeded mind.

[Anonymous No.19134134]

>>19134108
>Why are intellectuals hell-bent of destroying the middle class?


They are their primary competitors.
Where do new intellectualls and potential Elite candidates come from? The middle class.

They have to do crazy mental gymnastics because they cannto admit to themselves its all about closing the door behind them and ensuring their positions at the top without struggle.
Secretly, they wish we had a society like Tsarist Russia with 90% rightless serfs, bits of impoverished small nobility and a godlike and untouchable upper class.
Might also explain their sympathy for the Leninist take on Marxism, as it lead to the early Soviet Union looking exactly like this.

[Anonymous No.19134139]

>>19134108
intellectuals work entirely in the interests of the middle class against the proletariat while pretending to work for the sake of the working class

[Anonymous No.19134150]

Yes. Some people forget that to criticize something it's better to read it first and know what you are criticizing.

[Anonymous No.19134242]

>>19134108
To be fair there's no way marx and engels would have been able to do what they did while working a typical peasant job. It's not possible. The same can be said about today. In just about every Era major philosophical works are put out by lifelong academics who have the time above all else. They knew what they were doing because they were Hegelians, he weaponized the sheep, and it was successful in moving people. Problem is it failed in execution, and he underestimated capitalism.

[Anonymous No.19134554]

>>19133878
There is only the natural state of nature, a sociable relationship between free and servant.

[Anonymous No.19135263]

>>19121843
I do.

[Anonymous No.19135478]

>>19123815
Socialism: Utopian and Scientific is a great introduction to the concepts of scientific socialism and (as usual) blows out the arguments of all the cunts saying socialism is idealistic/teleological/feels-based for the next hundred and fifty years.

Anti-Duhring is also great, he just fucking obliterates this moron philosopher while demonstrating the superior clarity of thought of dialectical materialism.

[Anonymous No.19135494]

>>19121843
Unfortunately, but it does let you understand how these modern marxist bugmen think... like retards

[Anonymous No.19135515]

>>19135478
>scientific socialism
time for your 5th booster comrade!
dont forget to socially distance and wear a mask

[Anonymous No.19135521]

>>19134139
>against the proletariat
the proletariat does not exist in any developed country today. the middle class which marxist have such a hate for are also losing ground. marxist want abolition of all classses but get assmad when the wealth is in the hands of silicon valley jews instead of the other shade of red

[Anonymous No.19135534]

>>19133949
>it working too well is exactly what makes it doomed
but we should all trust the system that barely lasted 40 years and required, in every case it has ever been applied, mass murders and eradiction of all inherent aspects of culture except for a centrally planned Party approved pseudo "workers culture" that translates into black markets, cronyism, and poverty
hmm how about we dont pick either of your fake dichotomy options

[Anonymous No.19135549]

>>19135515
That's not what that means
Fucking hilarious

[Anonymous No.19135744]

>>19123176
fuck you cocksucker

[Anonymous No.19135829]

>>19133913
>Marx
>being wrong
>ever

[Anonymous No.19135872]

>>19135534
Straight bullshit cold war propaganda.
Russia went from a backwards agrarian society where people travelled by horse and carriage to being the first in space in the span of 40 years. Russia showed incredible growth after the revolution that surpassed the rest of the world:
>https://wid.world/document/soviets-oligarchs-inequality-property-russia-1905-2016/
>https://wid.world/document/appendix-soviets-oligarchs-inequality-property-russia-1905-2016-wid-world-working-paper-201710/
USSR provided free education to all citizens resulting in literacy rising from 33% to 99.9%:
>http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/archive/PubEdUSSR.htm
>http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/archive/anglosov.htm
>http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0000/000013/001300eo.pdf
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Likbez
USSR doubled life expectancy in just 20 years. A newborn child in 1926-27 had a life expectancy of 44.4 years, up from 32.3 years thirty years before. In 1958-59 the life expectancy for newborns went up to 68.6 years. The Semashko system of the USSR increased lifespan by 50% in 20 years. By the 1960's, lifespans in the USSR were comparable to those in the USA:
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Soviet_Union
>https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB5054/index1.html](https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB5054/index1.html
Quality of nutrition improved after the Soviet revolution, and the last time USSR had a famine was in 1940s. CIA data suggests they ate just as much as Americans after WW2 peroid while having better nutrition:
>https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP84B00274R000300150009-5.pdf
>https://artir.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/compar1.png?w=640
USSR moved from 58.5-hour work weeks to 41.6 hour work weeks (-0.36 h/yr) between 1913 and 1960:
>https://books.google.com/books?id=x8JYjwEACAAJ
>https://b-ok.cc/book/2669908/77497f
USSR averaged 22 days of paid leave in 1986 while USA averaged 7.6 in 1996:
>https://www.ilo.org/public/libdoc/ilo/1994/94B09_66_englp2.pdf
>https://www.bls.gov/news.release/ebs.t05.htm
In 1987, people in the USSR could retire with pension at 55 (female) and 60 (male) while receiving 50% of their wages at a at minimum. Meanwhile, in USA the average retirement age was 62-67 and the average (not median) retiree household in the USA could expect $48k/yr which comes out to 65% of the 74k average (not median) household income in 2016:
>https://www.ilo.org/public/libdoc/ilo/1994/94B09_66_englp2.pdf
>https://www.cbsnews.com/news/could-you-get-by-on-the-average-americans-retirement-income/
GDP took off after socialism was established and then collapsed with the reintroduction of capitalism:
>https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Soviet_Union_GDP_per_capita.gif
The Soviet Union had the highest physician/patient ratio in the world. USSR had 42 doctors per 10,000 population compared to 24 in Denmark and Sweden, and 19 in US:
>http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0735675784900482

[Anonymous No.19135890]

>>19135872
Professor of Economic History, Robert C. Allen, concludes in his study without the 1917 revolution is directly responsible for rapid growth that made the achievements listed above possilbe:
>https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.507.8966&rep=rep1&type=pdf
Study demonstrating the steady increase in quality of life during the Soviet period (including under Stalin). Includes the fact that Soviet life expectancy grew faster than any other nation recorded at the time:
>https://sci-hub.se/https://www.jstor.org/s
A large study using world bank data analyzing the quality of life in Capitalist vs Socialist countries and finds overwhelmingly at similar levels of development with socialism bringing better quality of life:
>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1646771/pdf/amjph00269-0055.pdf
"The rapid pace of economic development and the increasing attention from 1953 to raising the standard of living brought about a qualitative improvement in the living standard of the population in the 1950s. Whilst at the beginning of the decade the level of consumption of basic foods was characteristic rather of a developing country, as a result of the rise in per capita consumption of high-quality goods like meat, milk sugar, vegetables and pulses by 1.5-2 and more times, it reached the level of a number of developed countries. Malnutrition, which was still very widespread at the beginning of the 1950s, was practically eliminated."
>https://www.jstor.org/stable/3594504

And this is just from the socialist superpower that fell. Wait till you see the stats for China.

[Anonymous No.19135932]

>>19135829
There's no way this chart is accurate with the dawn of iPhones

[Anonymous No.19136040]

>>19133949
>communists have to always be ready for that and assume that it'll happen earlier than they expect. that's the only way they can be prepared. it comes with the job
I'm reminded of Engels writing that there would come a day (probably after his death of course) when his party would find itself thrust into power based on the "spinelessness" of all the others and then have to resort to ruthlessness and absolute measures and be compelled by the populace to make communist experiments that they knew would be untimely, and that'd be the pity of it, and then a reaction would set in, but none of that would matter at all in the end because they had already written down everything they thought in advance. It wasn't going to be up to them anyways, but future generations, and they knew that.

And it's not like Lenin and buds were sitting around in Switzerland in 1915 and thinking "okay in two years we're gonna have a revolution, and Lenin, you'll be on a train provided by the Germans." But then it happened. So how can anyone know? You never know. That might've just been the first wave, and then it recedes, but how would anyone know it won't come back? We're only 30 years past the collapse of the USSR, and that's not very long in the grand scheme of things, and then you see stuff like this >>19135890 and it might have just been ahead of its time. It might just take awhile, but like you said, history can be full of surprises, too. Either way, the influence on history has been *unbelievable* if you think about it. Political parties that at least claimed to follow a Marxist method of political analysis took over 1/3 of the planet.

https://youtu.be/9wPq0M_T8JQ

[Anonymous No.19136127]

>>19135521
>the proletariat does not exist in any developed country today
>the middle class which marxist have such a hate for are also losing ground
the middle class losing ground can't but result in some of its members falling into the proletariat
>marxist want abolition of all classses
copernicus wants the earth to go around the sun
>but get assmad when the wealth is in the hands of silicon valley jews instead of the other shade of red
what does that even mean

>>19135534
the USSR was capitalist. and I'm not asking you to trust anything. I want nothing to do with you. stay away from communism

[Anonymous No.19136194]

>>19135872
>Russia went from a backwards agrarian society where people travelled by horse and carriage to being the first in space in the span of 40 years. Russia showed incredible growth after the revolution that surpassed the rest of the world:


And they've been getting their ass kicked by America ever since. A far superior nation. If that is cold war propaganda then you spew tankie propaganda. The ends justify any means for commies though I guess.

[Anonymous No.19136426]

>>19135534
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Russian_Co-operative_Society
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Soviet_Trade_Agreement

[Anonymous No.19136706]

>>19122939
As opposed to Thomas Sewell who worked as a…

[Anonymous No.19136730]

>>19136127
if the ussr was capitalist lol what is capitalism?

[Anonymous No.19136876]

>>19135872
all i'm aware of is russia going from having toilet paper to uh
not having toilet paper

[Anonymous No.19136887]

>>19136730
a mode of production resting on production of commodities by agglomerations of wage workers. you can read this if you want http://www.sinistra.net/lib/pro/whyrusnsoc.html

[Anonymous No.19137017]

>>19135932
holy fucking kek. do bugmen really?

[Anonymous No.19137043]

>>19136887
are you an unironical left com, holy fucking kek

[Anonymous No.19138510]

>>19123650
>no thinking sexual thoughts
how? i havent coomed in ages but i still have sexual thoughts quite frequently

[Anonymous No.19139226]

Has anyone here read Zizek unironically?

[Anonymous No.19139305]

>>19122894
Awful b8.

[Anonymous No.19139322]

>>19136706
Cotton field nigger.

[Anonymous No.19139325]

>>19136730
There's literally a definition. It correspond to what USSR was.

[Anonymous No.19139341]

>>19121843
The fact that there's 28 threads about this fag and his stupid ideology on /lit/ at any given time and the fact that the threads are full of annoying asspies that spills over into other threads is enough to persuade me to never want to associate with him or ever put myself in a position to make an interaction with these types longer than they have to be.

So no. I'll pass thank you.

[Anonymous No.19139350]

>>19139341
ok

[Anonymous No.19139352]

>>19123650
Sorry permavirgin I'd rather be less well-read and busting nuts in your madmoiselle's hair

[Anonymous No.19139356]

>>19139350
Thank you for not talking to me

[Anonymous No.19139373]

>>19121843
I read like two secondary books and took a bunch of notes but forgot just about all of it.

[Anonymous No.19139428]

Everyone should read Marx so that they understand what academic faggots actually believe and lose total faith in them forever. If this shit is what ruling eggheads think is the most profound philosophy and a reasonable call to action, then fuck everything, I have no reason to answer to any man. I might as well become some Randroid tier antisocial individualist since nobody else knows what the fuck is going on.

Or as Chesterton put it,
>Without education, we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously.

[Anonymous No.19139692]

>>19121843
Most people here are entirely too retarded to actually read and understand Das Kapital, there might be like 3 people on this entire board...maybe, including myself. I'm actually rereading it along with Michael Heinrich's newest book.

[Anonymous No.19139717]

>>19122730

[Anonymous No.19139887]

>>19139717
I hope he doesn't die soon so that he can still be put against the wall by the workers whose exploitation he oversees while paying lip service to Marxism in the laziest way

[Anonymous No.19139898]

>>19139887
it's funny how amerishits magically transform into marxists whenever there are discussions about china

[Anonymous No.19139909]

>>19139898
true true. in the 80s Western kids would rebel against their parents by becoming punks, now they do it by staning China and pretending to be communist

[Anonymous No.19139916]

>>19139717
I wonder if Mr. Xi thinks Marx is the first historical materialist.

[Anonymous No.19139943]

>>19139887
t.reddit tranny

[Anonymous No.19139944]

>>19139916
he doesn't have time to think about anything related to Marx. those trite speeches and texts are written for him by professional bullshitters while he's busy with political manoeuvering and with managing the affairs of his capitalist state.

[Anonymous No.19139945]

>>19139944
see >>19139943

[Anonymous No.19139951]

>>19139943
that's funny because the GenZedong reddit is full of larping China stanning children like yourself and they have a "trans rights" post pinned right now