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[ERROR] No.19109290 [Reply] [Original]

How can you justify traditional conservatism/morality without Christianity? Without it, what is the purpose of marriage? of not killing someone? of being good to your neighbor?

With the collapse of Christianity isn't this current cultural reevaluation inevitable? Didn't Nietzsche say something about this?

>> No.19109296

>>19109290
who 5he fuck caes

>> No.19109304

Read Ayn Rand. Anything that was good in Christianity was Greek, and she rehabilitated Greek ethics from the clutches of a dying mysticism.

>> No.19109305
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>>19109296
Me, fren. That's why I asked.

>> No.19109309

>>19109304
What book specifically?

>> No.19109310
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>>19109290
If you had read Stirner, you’d understand what happened two hundred years ago.

>> No.19109314

>>19109310
Please tell us sweet butters

>> No.19109317

>>19109310
Are you the real butterfly? What happened 200 years ago?

And please everyone stop being so cryptic. I'm a literal retard, I need to be spoon-fed these answers please.

>> No.19109335

>>19109314
Simply put, the state took the place of the church

>> No.19109341

>>19109290
>Without it, what is the purpose of marriage?
Having a lifelong companion, loving and being loved, providing a stable home for your children which will ultimately make them happier.
>of not killing someone?
I assume you don't want to be killed. Most people don't want to be killed or have their loved ones killed. It's better for everyone's quality of life if we agree not to kill each other.
>of being good to your neighbor?
same principle as previous. It improves everyone's lives if neighbors are good to each other.
Morality is ultimately based in ensuring better lives for the most people, and you do not need a supernatural belief system to justify making things better, though it helps for some people.
>t. fedora

>> No.19109344

>>19109290
Religion is only the pretext used to impose norms that fulfill a social function, many religions have rules designed to preserve the health of the people who profess them, such as not eating pork, the diseases that pork can cause are independent of the veracity of the religion that prohibits its consumption

>> No.19109351

>>19109290
Nietzsche, Evola and Guenon were all fanatical conservatives without being Christians.

>> No.19109353

>>19109290
we'll revert to something like molyneaux's universally preferable behaviour (as determined by Science - the institution). you can imagine what horrors that will produce.

>> No.19109359

>>19109351
>Nietzsche
>conservative
Anon...

>> No.19109364

>>19109290
>How can you justify traditional conservatism/morality without Christianity

Ironic because this is what the Romans thought when Christianity destroyed their traditional values at the time

>> No.19109377

>>19109290
This is bizarre do you think Christianity has a monopoly on not murdering people and marriage? Civilizations were doing that for thousands of years before Christianity existed and billions of non-Christians are alive now that don't murder each other and still get married.

>> No.19109378

>>19109364
What was the basis of Roman traditional values? Wasn't that just based on an idealist version of Ancient Greece?

>> No.19109381

>>19109351
Try not being so American

>> No.19109393
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>>19109381
America is a theocracy btw

>> No.19109417

>>19109393
From a certain point of view, but not technically.
But again, no one upholds the First Amendment.

>> No.19109421

>>19109417
no one care about technically
also >>19109277

>> No.19109434

>>19109341
So with Christianity's death you don't predict any major changes in morality in Western civilization?

>> No.19109445

>>19109421
Well some people care a lot about the constitution. They invoke it often enough. And it separates church and state. The state is supposed to have sole dominion over its laborers

I am reading a history book, a sociology book and a Calasso book lately.

>> No.19109450

>>19109445
Madame, please stop being so cryptic. Just tell us what you are reading.

>> No.19109452

>>19109445
what history book

>> No.19109453

>>19109434
>any major changes in morality in Western civilization?
Already happened. Whitman, the roaring 20s, the 60s and all that legacy.

>> No.19109463

>>19109450
>>19109452
What Makes Civilization, Wengrow
The Art of Not Being Governed, Scott
The Marriage of Cadmus are Harmony, Calasso

>> No.19109471

>>19109290
>How can you justify traditional conservatism/morality without Christianity?
genetic benefits conferred to the individual and the group
>Without it, what is the purpose of marriage?
same as above
>of not killing someone?
are you implying that traditionalism and conservativism would embrace wanton murder if not for Christianity?
>of being good to your neighbor?
Cooperation benefits you, genetically

Religion has benefits but they all come down to individual and group survival benefits, hence the spread of the religion. it's a symbiotic thing. you can remove it but it is best to replace it with something less obviously a religion (but still one)

>> No.19109475

>>19109453
That's why I'm confused at his statements. He seems to think things are just going to continue. Marriage seems dead, or at least it's running on fumes. There's almost no community anymore, the internet seems to have killed that though, not so much the death of Christianity.

>> No.19109476

>>19109434
I didn't say that. I just pointed out you can justify "conservative" morality with secular reasoning.
But I also don't see the principles of "don't kill people" and "be nice to people" going away. Sexual morality is a different story.

>> No.19109481
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>>19109463
Wengrow look intresing
u need read The German Ideology

>> No.19109483

>>19109476
What if those things are just running on the fumes of Christian morality though? If there is no God then why would killing someone be bad? Wouldn't murder increase as the culture becomes progressively less Christian? Just as marriage has decreased as it's gotten less Christian.

>> No.19109500

>>19109483
"Murder is bad" is almost a universal moral value and it is present in most societies, because people recognize things are objectively better if we agree not to murder each other.

>> No.19109504
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>>19109500
>universal moral value
cringe and humanist

>> No.19109512

>>19109504
By this I mean it is a moral value that tends to develop in almost all societies regardless of its underlying ideology, religion, values, etc.

>> No.19109517

>>19109475
Current thread with a Kubrick quote OP states it best.
Capitalism is rubbing us out. We fight it by rebuilding community. Why worship a golden calf or a word or a dead carpenter for that?

>>19109481
I haven’t.

>> No.19109520

>>19109309
Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology.

>> No.19109525
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>>19109475
Here it is

>> No.19109528

>>19109512
that's impossible

>> No.19109531

>>19109517
>>19109525
i dont need god or community

>> No.19109534

>>19109525
Very Nietzschean.

>> No.19109552

>>19109525
how kafkaesque

>> No.19109617

>>19109290
If you imagine cultures as biological organisms, you can conceptualize monogamous marriage is one aspect of westernkinds biological life-strategy.
It's like asking why do birds fly; other animals don't need to fly so what's the point. Well flying is one aspect of the bird's survival strategy - a strategy which incorporates thousands of behaviors and attributes into a matrix which serves as a local maximum to the problem of existence.
Cultures do this too. Westernkind was and had developed towards an amazingly successful strategy. Sadly, it also appears to have a powerful weakness, as the very mechanisms which allowed it to flourish also cause it to destroy itself.
Marriage is the bedrock of western society since through marriage lower status men are made capable of gaining sexual access and in return the collective has their buy-in towards maintaining and progressing the overall system. With marriage, everyone has skin in the game and you prevent men from becoming lonely, bitter, maladapted losers.

>> No.19109652

>>19109290
>Didn't Nietzsche say something about this?
Another proud non-reader posting on /lit/. Yes the death of God means (You) must find a new means of evaluating.

>> No.19109669

>>19109290
Read the Shijing. Read the Analects. START WITH THE CHINESE.

>> No.19109691

>>19109669
What's your fave piece from the Shijing related to the topic of morality?

>> No.19109706

>>19109483
>Just as marriage has decreased as it's gotten less Christian.
CORRELATION =/= CAUSATION

>> No.19109712

>>19109617
lmao wEsTeRnKiND hahaha FAGGOT

>> No.19109717

>>19109290
There is no morality without God. This is why western society has degenerated so rapidly, the decline of Christianity is directly responsible for it.

>> No.19109825

Conservatism is a human residue present in all societies that will endure regardless of what memeplexes are imposed upon it. Morality for the most part is evolutionarily adaptive, you only need a basic level of ethics to police the things that fall outside of what is considered ethically normal. Traditional marriage is rational and can be justified on a number of levels, not just by appealing to tradition. There are numerous non-Christian systems of traditionalism that can be deployed to fill the same role that Christianity used to fill. Everything good in the world can exist without Christianity. You could erase Christianity from the Earth and everything would be fine or the same.

>> No.19109835

>>19109377
They do unironically believe that. They are extremely dumb.

>> No.19109923

>>19109359
He supports radical hierarchy of the strong over the weak, hated women and democracy and was loved by Hitler.

>> No.19109959

>>19109341
guess you've never heard of a free rider

>> No.19110907

>>19109525
Kubrick is just regurgitating The Denial of Death here, with the same humanist claptrap conclusion.
Life isn't just meaningless, meaning is *impossible*

>> No.19110912

>>19109290
Cultural reevaluation means that people will stop believing semitic fairy tales, not that they will start killing each other for some reason.

>> No.19110917

>>19109525
this is why movie producers shouldn't open their mouths. they're as retarded as musicians

>> No.19110945
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>>19109290
>marriage
>murder is wrong
>the golden rule
all of these predate Christianity lmao. I don't know why people think we need Abrahamic religion to embrace these ideas, especially since Christian slave morality is what ultimately led to modern degeneracy and immorality.

>> No.19110954

>>19110907
>>19110917
>You can’t make your own meaning! Stahp!!
I don’t care what you think. This is how secularists live. We’re not obsessed with *Meaning*. It’s not there. *Purpose*, a whole series of them are what we have, always have had.

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>>19110954
>We’re not obsessed with *Meaning*. It’s not there. *Purpose*, a whole series of them are what we have, always have had.
cope

>> No.19110986

>>19109528
In which societies has wanton murder been seen as acceptable behavior?

>> No.19111011

>>19110954
> life has no meaning
> but we have as purpose within it
That's like being dropped into a minecraft server at birth, with no hope of anything more. If you exist within a meaningless reality, there is no purpose available to you, only cope

>> No.19111019
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>>19110975
I so plainly pointed out that we do cope. Those who don’t understand the nature of the world have a hard time coping

>> No.19111100

>>19109344
even in this incredibly cynical worldview
the pretext is still indispensable

>> No.19111106

>>19109341
> better lives
>good
you cant define any of this stuff without god.
marriage before all this was just a property contract
it ends with anti-natalism

>> No.19111116

>>19109923
Is this your definition of conservatism? Holy kek.

>> No.19111119

>>19109290
Hobbes did that already. Read a book retard.

>> No.19111141

>>19109434
Amerimutt, you arent more connected to Europe than Japan, Mexico or Lebanon

>> No.19111348

>>19111019
You just said "purpose" instead of "meaning" - your cope is on a conceptual level, such I have extrapolated here >>19111011

>> No.19111381

>>19109290
Would you do if God was proven to not be real? We can be Atheist and Fictionalists about God

>> No.19111546

>>19111348
Again. There is no meaning. That’s some kind of religious fantasy males latch on to. You can’t cope with reality.
Reality is a cornucopia of purposes to choose from. These choices can be trivial or what we would call rather evil. But they’re all laid our to grab. Those who grab their purpose are coping with what life has to offer. This is just the way it is. So we who have chosen tell the likes of you to cope.

>> No.19111558

>>19111546
The great scientists and philosophers of the world are coping. 45 year old mentally ill hag who does nothing but post on image posts has the world figured out lol. Please get help

>> No.19111560

>>19111558
she's literally right

>> No.19111565

>>19111381
then nothing would make sense
I'd move to some simulation theory and assume things make sense in the real universe

>> No.19111575

>>19111546
where do these purposes originate from
who/how are they laid to our grab

>> No.19111580
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hmm yes very intereting

>> No.19111587

>>19111575
>who/how are they laid to our grab
Do you think purposes are physical things laid out to be picked up? It's a figure of speech. The cornucopia of purposes means you make up your own purpose or latch onto someone elses.

>> No.19111594

>>19111560
Prove it

>> No.19111676

>>19109290
>didn't Neecha say something about this?
You answered your own question.
Try Cioran too.

>> No.19111856

>>19111011
>That's like being dropped into a minecraft server at birth, with no hope of anything more
Not quite. We can invent new technologies and peoples, and create new arts and cultures, within our limits of course. It's more like being dropped into a Minecraft server with no hope of escaping but you do have mod tools at least.

>> No.19112058

>>19111546
I'm the person you were replying to. I don't see your point still. It seems like we are talking about to different things. Without meaning, I see no possibility of having a purpose. I have done basically everything one would call "MEANINGFUL" in life, and been left wanting more. Nothing I've done and no purpose I've found has lead to anything but disillusionment. When I challenge you I'm looking for a better answer then what I've already found and pursued and rejected

>> No.19112495

>>19109310
fuck you cocksucker