/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.19105080]

i know there are Buddhists here. looking for help understanding something.

truths 1 through 3 are pretty based, and before i had even heard of buddhism i had pretty much internalised something much like them, but i just don't see how truth 4 follows at all. it's the same bunch of bog-standard ethical injunctions you'd find in any other religion. if the goal is non-attachment, why would "loving-kindness" get me there any more than "hateful-cruelty"?

[Anonymous No.19105089]

>>19105080
go sit by a river faggot

[Anonymous No.19105123]

>>19105080
>why would "loving-kindness" get me there any more than "hateful-cruelty"?
Not a Buddhist but how could you act with hateful-cruelty without craving?

[Anonymous No.19105132]

>>19105080
>>19105123
What about indifferent-apathy?

[Anonymous No.19105157]

>>19105123
but that's my point. in what sense are the two different?

[Anonymous No.19105168]

>>19105080
if you dont want to be passive you can just ignore that part. i dont know why religion is so against action. the most miserable people are the ones who never got revenge but who wanted it so bad. some can successfully cope with religion but some will never get over it. so they become political pundits.

[Anonymous No.19105244]

>>19105168
the fuck are you babbling about

[Anonymous No.19105306]

>>19105244
youre right that was retarded im sorry

[Anonymous No.19105321]

>>19105244
Sounds like garbled reading of Nietzsche's idea of ressentiment, although the man himself viewed Buddhism as free from this view.

[Anonymous No.19105395]

did nietzsche link ressentiment and religion? i thought he viewed it as a cope for being inferior rather than ressentiment

[Anonymous No.19105469]

>>19105132
Considering that Buddha had to be convinced by a god begging him to teach other people, I question how much "loving-kindness" is actually important to Buddhists. Maybe indifferent-apathy is the way.

[Anonymous No.19105550]

>>19105080
I don't understand what you mean at all. Noble Truths: 1. Suffering. 2. The causes of suffering 3. The cessation of suffering. 4. Ways of cessation.
Or are you talking about brahma-vihara?
>non-attachment
It is a tool. Not a goal. Some minds need the other way around.

[Anonymous No.19105632]

>>19105550
i'm talking about the eightfold path (truth 4). i don't see why doing almost any of those things will lead to the cessation of suffering. am i supposed to just take it on faith like Christ's resurrection?

[Anonymous No.19105688]

>>19105632
8-Path really still assumes a personal attachment and is just a bunch of stuff you can do to avoid negative karma and improoove yourself. It is introductory, lowest effort stuff. The higher tiers of doctrine are about stopping karma altogether, good and bad, i.e. being totally selfless, rather than just personally avoiding doing bad so that as a person you are by default good or strictly following what you need to do for you to be the one doing good.

[Anonymous No.19105715]

>>19105688
that sounds like the good stuff. can you give me some key terms to research, or suggest some books?

[Anonymous No.19105763]

>>19105469
>I question how much "loving-kindness" is actually important to Buddhists. Maybe indifferent-apathy is the way.
loving kindness is not important

this stuff about metta is about earning good karma points only, which gives a you a good rebirth only.

the goal of buddhism is no-rebirth, thru insight and the destruction of the ''asavas''...

metta is for the lay people because 99% of people don't want no rebirth

[Anonymous No.19105764]

>>19105715
Everything gets translated differently but there are concepts like karma, nirvana, samsara, buddha, obviously; and more metaphysics-based stuff like skandhas, ayatanas, dharmas, jñana/dhyana, pratityasamutpada... If you read through some of the nikayas (collections of the earliest texts), their introductions and the translators' notes you should have a good foundation to read almost anything else from any later Buddhist school. You could start with either the Long or the Middle-Length Discourses, which are series of sermons by the Buddha or his followers on a particular topic. Note: they can be very repetitive since these were oral recitations before being committed to writing.

[Anonymous No.19105813]

there is a famous sutta where an actor loved his idea that he is a good person, as usual with people, they always build a view where entertainment is beneficial to people, where sensual pleasures, delight, enjoyment are skillful, whereas the buddha spend his time stating the opposite

"Worthless man, from whom have you understood that Dhamma taught by me in such a way? Worthless man, haven't I in many ways described obstructive acts? And when indulged in they are genuine obstructions. I have said that sensual pleasures are of little satisfaction, much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks. I have compared sensual pleasures to a chain of bones: of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks. I have compared sensual pleasures to a lump of flesh... a grass torch... a pit of glowing embers... a dream... borrowed goods... the fruits of a tree... a butcher's ax and chopping block... swords and spears... a snake's head: of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks. But you, worthless man, through your own wrong grasp [of the Dhamma], have both misrepresented us as well as injuring yourself and accumulating much demerit for yourself, for that will lead to your long-term harm & suffering."[2] https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.022.than.html

then the buddha states

Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn42/sn42.002.than.html

Of course, people can go to numerous higher realms before going to ''either hell or the animal womb'', like the people who do only metta, https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.037.than.html

But people who practice metta, karuna, and so on after avoiding being intoxicated & heedless manage to stop rebirth in some higher realm. The Pratice of sense restrain plus the 4 metta, karuna , mudita, uppeka is the slowest path, since rebirth is not stopped ''in this very life'', but only in the next one.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an07/an07.049.than.html

as usual, wrong view springs from clinging to the five aggregates.

[Anonymous No.19105847]

>>19105715
here is a little explanation with the terms which matter. Samadhi=''concentration''='''meditation''.

The path is the same for everybody at whatever stage. The stage of Sotapanna deals with views more than lusts, with the views being Sakkaya Ditthi and the usual obsessions of people with rituals and symbolism that people create generations after generations.
The remaining task after getting rid of Sakkaya Ditthi is to see the dependent origination, and for that you still need to make the citta serene (pasīdati), to get the citta [=spirit, heart, ''consciousness''] into samadhi and then to find out the sources of each aggregate.

When it comes to the citta, the only thing to do before liberating it, cittaVimutti, is to make it into samadhi.
There is a famous sutta where 4 samadhis are listed. The most famous samadhi is the jahnas.
http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/anguttara/04/an04-041.html


Of course, the most important samadhi is the one where mano is used as yoniso manasikara, instead of mano being used as vitakka+vicara+papanca, ie for daydreaming, creating views and intellectualizing like so many people love to do and claim there are virtuous for doing so.
This Yoniso manasikāra is what stops karma [good or bad]. So as usual, it is to see each 5 aggregate as it is but, and this is the most important point of all the dhamma, you must see for yourself what is the condition of each aggregate and the cessation of each aggregate.

The samadhi right before that is the most important one since it is the usual one to prevent the development of lusts. https://suttacentral.net/sn36.3/en/bodhi
This samadhi is the the famous satisampajanna. This satisampajanna is the pinnacle of what a few people call stupidly ''doing vipassana''. THis practice is about watching the ''thoughts'' as they come and go and watching 2 aggregates, sanna and vedena, but not finding out their condition and their cessation (therefore the practice does not lead to the vipassanas).

satisampajanna has nothing to do with finding out the nature of sankharam of the 5 aggregates. But satisampajanna is the best basis to do Yoniso manasikāra. With satisampajanna you know easily the arising of a thought, the establishing of a thought and the fall of a thought, before a new thought pops up and replaces it and it starts all over again. Same thing for pleasant vedenas, following a non-pleasnt non-displeasnt vedena which follows another vedena and so on. http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/anguttara/08/an08-009.html

[Anonymous No.19105851]

>>19105847

With good sati, go further and you remember to try to see all the conditions that the buddha talks about.
Once you see for yourself the conditioned nature of the aggregates, you see that they are anicca, which makes you see them as dukkha, which makes you see them as anatta, which makes you dispassionate (nibidda) towards them, which makes the citta liberated. All those insights called Aniccānupassī, dukkhānupassī, anattānupassī, Virāgānupassī, Nirodhānupassī, Paṭinissaggānupassī follow from ''seeing for yourself'' the dependent origination. Like the buddha said, ''seeing the dependent origination is seeing the dhamma'' and the usual first step to do that is to calm down and get the citta in samadhi.
The way to kill desire, lust, greed is to train to see and to see the 5 aggregates as anicca dukkha anatta
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.55/en/sujato
The source of this desire is ignorance.the way to kill the desire is to kill the ignorance.
For instance, to cultivate the perception of impermanence
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.102/en/sujato
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.59/en/sujato


More explicitly for a sotapanna, the recommendation is to live ''heedfully'', which just means again getting the citta into right samadhi which creates a good basis for Yoniso manasikāra:

> "Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones is endowed with verified
> confidence in the Dhamma... verified confidence in the Sangha...
> virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken,
> unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished,
> leading to concentration. Not content with those virtues pleasing to
> the noble ones, he exerts himself further in solitude by day or
> seclusion by night. For him, living thus heedfully, joy arises. In one
> who has joy, rapture arises. In one who has rapture, the body becomes
> serene. When the body is serene, one feels pleasure. Feeling pleasure,
> the mind becomes centered. When the mind is centered, phenomena become
> manifest. When phenomena are manifest, he is reckoned as one who
> dwells heedfully.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn55/sn55.040.than.html
here is a little sutta with more details for satipathana
http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/samyutta/maha/sn47-040.html

If you fail to get the citta into samadhi, then you can fall back on giving to contemplative, with he proper ''state of mind'', because a sotapanna knows that calming the citta is crucial and that giving to contemplatives who strive for senses restrains is a good thing: the citta is serene (pasīdati) when giving is done https://suttacentral.net/an7.52/en/thanissaro

[Anonymous No.19105878]

>>19105813
wow, this is great. thanks so much. i'm a brainlet so it will take me some time to digest this. quick question while i've got you here though; can you help me understand the story in that final link, "Dana Sutta: Giving"? what does buddha mean by 'This is an ornament for the mind, a support for the mind'.

[Anonymous No.19105990]

>>19105715

take 1h to read that and you'll be up to date

>start
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN19.html
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN6_63.html
>middle
https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/sujato
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN12_51.html
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN11_1.html
>finish
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN54_8.html

[Anonymous No.19106094]

>>19105847
I wonder if anyone on /lit/ is a sotapanna

[Anonymous No.19106235]

>>19106094
Dunno but guenonfag is definitely an icchantika

[Anonymous No.19107893]

>>19105632
>i'm talking about the eightfold path
So? And what does not suit you there?
This is the minimum necessary for "entering-into-flow", otherwise the mind will simply produce the karma of the lower destinies, and then any meditation efforts will be in vain. There is a sutra (I don't remember the number, Pali), there was a zealous monk with very gross defilements - he felt constant hunger and could never get enough, so his meditation turned into torment with the only thought - to eat. Buddha personally put food in his mouth and explained the reasons for such gross defilement, then the monk was able to enter samadhi.
One cannot achieve great success with gross karma. But it is impossible to achieve enlightenment only by purifying karma. Not producing karma, as the Ajivikas wanted, will also fail. So there is an integrated approach, and the necessary minimum is noble eightfold path.

>loving-kindness
This term has a specific meaning : maitri or metta and belongs to the paramitas.

Some popular books confuse Buddhist terms and people get them wrong (plus the terminology of schools can be very different). So I have to cling to words.

[Anonymous No.19107913]

>>19106235
He is actually a bodhisattva and demonstrates the disastrous nature of extreme guenonfaggotery views.

[Anonymous No.19107965]

Can anyone explain why someone would follow Pure Land? It seems totally counter to what the Buddha taught, rather then escaping samara through training your mind and foregoing defilements you just repeat the nambutsu and that's it?

Seems like an extrememly watered down Christianity even further then protestantism

[Anonymous No.19108006]

>>19105080

Anger leads to bitterness and regret while loving - kindness leads to contentment. I don't think there's a necessarily logical reason for this other than people who are angry inspire others to be angry at them and people who are loving and kind inspire others to be loving and kind to them. People who are angry at you will treat you like badly, and people who are loving/kind/happy with you will treat you likewise. So, if the path to end suffering is letting go of attachment it's easier to let go of attachment when you are surrounded by positive energy and happiness rather than negative energy and bitterness. Although, again, that's not to say that Buddhists are libertines. To be addicted to love is not good either - to be lost in a haze of pure pleasure is not the ideal.

Nor are the Buddhists enunciates - the Buddha was born a prince and lived as a hermit as well and rejected both world views, so Buddhism properly speaking is about living in the so-called Middle Path.

The Buddhist idea of Samsara may clear this up a bit.

There is a Buddhist belief in Samsara in that there are six realms of existence. I view these as being six realms of religious experience in that they are ways of being and exist in how the mind views the universe.

They are

The realm of the Devas - those who are gods or are godlike in their divinity. There are those people who move and the world moves with them. World leaders and those who live in a complete atmosphere of total luxury.

The realm of the Semi-divine - those who are have some of the powers of gods, but are not entirely like them. (In Roman mythology this would be akin to Hercules or similar - in many world religions there are cross currents of underlying belief).

There is the realm of humans - those who are mortal human beings and have no special powers other than ie cogito ergo sum etc.

There is the realm of the animals - Those beings who act on instinct. In this sense, there are those people who are animals in the sense that they are guided by instinct.

The realm of the plants - Those beings who are guided entirely by slothful instinct. That is they have less sense than even animals. Have you ever heard someone called a "coach potato"? That is in the sense which some people exist to satisfy base whims.

The realm of hell - Those people who are condemned to suffer or are suffering. From horrible illness or family loss.

The way that I view this is that in this life (and again possibly in the next), there are times when people are in one of the six realms and based on Karma are reborn into another of the realms. Not all people are in all realms or will experience them all, but people are born and live and die and are reborn into one of these six realms repeatedly in a never ending cycle of karma.

And this is a type of suffering. So suppose that you are born into the life of the Devas (as the Buddha was as an Indian prince) and you are content all your life with every known luxury.

[N E M O . !!GgBWHLRiayD No.19108037]

>i know there are Buddhists here.

[Anonymous No.19108044]

>>19108006
Well...the Buddha was too until he witnessed suffering and his heart broke and he was no longer content to live the life of a prince. So he renounced all his earthly possessions and attempted to live in the forest. In a type of hellish existence as a sort of penance. Or perhaps not that, but an attempt at a sort of anti-libertinism that would allow for what he did not have as a prince. But that was not satisfactory either.

The point here is that in this life (and, perhaps, if you are theistic, the next) there is an endless cycle of moving from one type of existence to another. Maybe there are not these six, but there are many types of lives. But the endless moving is a type of non-contentment. If you are a Deva, you want not to be a deva. If you are in hell you want not to be in hell.

And so the Buddhist view of ending the cycle is Nirvana. Acknowledge that the cycle exists and ignore it. And then you are free from the desire of participating. Free from desire as such.

So...a laid back contentment is basically what the Buddhists are after. They view both heaven and hell as transitory states that don't extinguish the desire for transition and therefore are still a type of suffering. (And again this doesn't mean be a coach potato).

So Nirvana is a tricky concept to get your head around (sophomoric ally how does one desire to have no desire etc, how does one "give up" on the cosmic cycle without giving up in the coach potato sense etc.). And there are lots of words written on the subject.

I think just sort of a laid back contentment while working on what you want to work on when you have the time from other necessary duties is basically Nirvana though. Being kind to animals and people. Not being cruel to people just because you can (which the internet makes too easy sometimes). Hating the cosmic cycle just makes one think about it more and therefore become more attached.

Hope that is at least a little helpful.

[Anonymous No.19108047]

>>19107965
A person sensibly evaluates his chances of achieving something in the field of becoming a Buddha in this life (remember, we are talking about Mahayana) and understands that the best achievement is entering the bodhisattva school where the principal is cool Amitabha.
And in the medieval Theravada, most likely there was almost no meditation, the senior monks said that for people with bad karma (do you think you have good karma - why were you not born during the Buddha's time? Huh?), Meditation is only harmful and will lead to birth in hell ... So it's better to just sing hymns.

[Anonymous No.19108067]

>>19106235
Im spreading correct understanding and insight by awakening people to the falsities of the doctrine of “no-self”, if people want to continue being Buddhists while believing that Buddha implicitly accepted an Atman, that’s their choice

[Anonymous No.19108069]

SPOOKS

[Anonymous No.19108178]

>>19108044
>Being kind to animals and people.
Why? Shouldn’t I be indifferent to them?

[Anonymous No.19108201]

>>19108178
Because the Buddha said so and you need to escape samsara (samsara is the same as nirvana btw).

[Anonymous No.19108220]

>>19108201
>Because the Buddha said so
The senses deceive, I cannot know that any words I hear or read are actually Buddha’s words.

[Anonymous No.19109499]

>>19108201
>>19108201
>samsara is the same as nirvana btw).
buddha never said btw

[Anonymous No.19109558]

>>19105080
> "My disciples, the homeless brothers must observe the four rules and about them build their lives. First they wear old and cast-off garments; second they get their food through alms-begging; third, their home is where night finds them as under a tree or on a rock; and, fourth, they use only a special medicine made from URINE laid down by the Brotherhood. "
- THE BUDDHA

[Anonymous No.19110258]

>>19109558
In Indian climates, urine (usually cow urine) is the cleanest thing to wash wounds. Imagine living in the ancient Indian wilderness where everything is teeming with bacteria due to the hot and humid climate. There are no pharmacies.