Ok seriously does any theologian have an answer to this?

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Anonymous Mon Sep 13 23:49:51 2021 No.19045129 [Reply] [Original]

Ok seriously does any theologian have an answer to this?

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS Mon Sep 13 23:52:35 2021 No.19045151 File: 111 KB, 1080x720, F35D3F25-D293-4E0C-904C-B1F0F4320A25.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] It’s a multiple choice questionnaire. You pick one is all. Christians are schizophrenics though, so they pick two

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 13 23:56:18 2021 No.19045171 Does anyone really have a satisfying answer to the Why Bad Thing Happen question?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 13 23:58:09 2021 No.19045181 >>19045171 Duality between good and evil is a decent answer, but of course contradicts that God is omnipotent

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 13 23:59:42 2021 No.19045187 >>19045171 I can sometimes cope by saying losing your job and wife might not be that bad it could change your life in a positive way but I don't have an answer for some child born without arms in the 3rd world destined to live a horrible life

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 00:00:52 2021 No.19045193

>>19045171
The best ones I've seen are "to strengthen you through challenges" (there would be no point in life, if everything were just handed to you without difficulty), or possibly "God is an artist and you need both light and dark to make an interesting picture."

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 00:00:53 2021 No.19045194 >>19045187 Obviously the recoil and horror he inspires in others causes them to do good and lead better lives causing a net positive in the world against the child having arms.

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 00:02:16 2021 No.19045206

>>19045129
They will either say that evil does not exist; if you wish to suffer eternally, you will continue to do what leads to that without verbal garnishes such as "evil."

Of course, the better answer would be that "God's ways are mysterious," but that renders "good" and "perfect" meaningless because they are detached from any human understanding of the terms. Any attempt to understand them through "theosis" or what have you begs the question because there is no way to verify that it is truly "theosis." It is too far detached from the verifiable and certain

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 00:04:24 2021 No.19045218

>>19045129
The best answer is deism. He created us like a science experiment in his image and wanted to see what would happen if he didn't do anything. This idea makes the most sense as it seems like what I would do instead of telling people not to have gay sex or eat fish on Fridays.

Pseudo-Pseudo Dionysius Tue Sep 14 00:07:37 2021 No.19045232

>>19045129
It is good in God's eyes for man to be able to choose, even if that choice is evil. He must have choice to love God. If he does not, then he it is not love at all. Adam choose poorly, and mankind has followed in sin, death, and corruption.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 00:13:32 2021 No.19045256 >>19045232 This is how you talk like a pseud. Take notes, folks

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 00:16:38 2021 No.19045266
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If God created humans, where's God's touch? Why make the universe so material and dependent on physical law, devoid of the divine? Why are human insides so revolting? Why is the human brain a lumpy mass and not a beautiful spark of the soul? Why do we need to pass food through a long slithering tunnel of entrails and shit it outside? Why do we sweat, piss, get rashes, fart? Where in God's Great Plan fits the earwax?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 00:17:21 2021 No.19045270 >>19045187 Yeah havent sern any side really explain "Natural evil" in a satisfying way. Faith in an ultimate reason or faith that at some point science will defintely solve it are kinda eh.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 00:18:07 2021 No.19045273 >>19045171 >>19045129 Its literally given multiple times in every single thread.

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 00:22:59 2021 No.19045290

>>19045129
>>19045171
Universal positivism a la monadology or Plato. The belief that everything eventually serves towards an ultimate good as an a priori point of fact. think JRR Tolkien's middle earth for a less philosophic example.

God is good is the a priori conceit. I really dont see how this is a hang up for anyone who has read the Republic. You anons HAVE read the Republic, haven't you?

>>	Pseudo-Pseudo Dionysius Tue Sep 14 00:24:50 2021 No.19045301 >>19045187 It is a reminder, or consequence, or the fall of man. To those that do not heed the warning there are far worse things than being born without arms. >>19045256 Forgive me, but I do not find this convincing.

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 00:32:03 2021 No.19045326

>>19045273

It literally is NOT. You are a fucking liar. The theological justification of god has never satisfactorily been given, because there is none. Otherwise, they hide behind "dude just read there's no point in me here", pretending wisdom they lack.

>dude acorn grow therefore god lmao
>dude first cause chicanery sophistry lmao
>dude le mathematical proof also I refuse to take food unless my dead wife prepares it lmao
>dude god is a machine because arbitrary wordplay also emotions all reduce to RGB admixtures of the three ones I arbitrarily pick lmao

All confused, garbage thought pretending at depth. They are all intellectually unsatisfying when properly read, which have not misrepresented above.

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 00:40:54 2021 No.19045357

Can we tack on this question:

If there is a satisfying answer to all of these, why would God, who is supposed to be your friend, obscure the answer to the average person throughout thousands of years of illiteracy and nonsense, just to prove a point, to a race of animals who might as well be ants, in order to justify their worship, capriciously assigning fates to said quasi-ants for all time based on their performance....etc.

I actually envy traditional religion believers because at least they get to face death with some kind of possibility of NG+ and there's no cheeky "told you so" from people who know death equals total oblivion because we all end up in the same total zero absence of consciousness state.

>>	Pseudo-Pseudo Dionysius Tue Sep 14 00:46:25 2021 No.19045376 >>19045326 >Strawmen and reductionism Truthfully, I do not think you understand what you're talking about.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 00:49:41 2021 No.19045386 >>19045376 They aren't, the arguments themselves are bogus and I haven't misrepresented them, although I have caricatured them only slightly the better to mock them.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 00:52:14 2021 No.19045391 >>19045171 atheism

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 00:56:06 2021 No.19045405

>>19045326
literally just read plato.

good is an ideal, and everything springs from it. Its a question of ontology and you for some reason are bringing up inane common platitudes. What is goodness to you. the op doesnt even define what good and bad is. is it pleasure? is it conformity to some law of nature, is it a perfect form?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 00:57:32 2021 No.19045407 >>19045301 And forgive me, but I don't find you convincing

Pseudo-Pseudo Dionysius Tue Sep 14 00:57:50 2021 No.19045409

>>19045386
Some of these arguments I also happen to disagree with but I don't think you're giving them a fair hearing. For example, the argument from motion involves a high degree of Aristotelian and Thomistic philosophy to fully comprehend. I agree they're ultimately faulty but it's important to give your opponent the time of day.

>>	Pseudo-Pseudo Dionysius Tue Sep 14 00:58:51 2021 No.19045413 >>19045407 You are forgiven

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 00:59:40 2021 No.19045416

>>19045405
It's not just an ideal. It's a fact of nature. It's not just that things are good. There is something called Good that exists. So in that sense, it's not a Platonic, philosophical idea.
Good, as it applies to nature, isn't merely the result of perfect forms. The Earth, the Sun, and all of the planets are very good at what they do.
Good, as it applies to nature, isn't merely the result of perfect forms. The Earth, the Sun, and all of the planets are very good at what they do.
You could have a universe without anything at all and it would still be "good" in some sense. It could be a "good" universe just because nothing would exist. That's not what I was talking about.

If God didn't exist there would be nothing good. The Earth, the Sun, and the planets are not good in the sense of having a purpose for being in the universe. God is good because he exists and is perfect. He exists by virtue of being God and being perfect.

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 01:03:48 2021 No.19045430

>>19045409

I believe motion and matter are both forms of existence. The existence of motion is the existence of a state of motion. Similarly, matter exists as the condition or potentiality for the existence of motion. So, matter is something which, if actualized, will cause motion to exist.

But the existence of matter itself does not cause motion to exist. Rather, matter exists, which is to say it exists without motion, or it does not exist. If matter exists, it does so as a form of existence which exists outside of motion. Motion, however, is not like that. It is not a form of existence in that it is something which exists independently of other forms of existence. (This is not the same thing as "being" - it is not the same as "existence" - but the two are linked in this manner.)

Therefore, we cannot say that motion is a form of existence in that it has a beginning in time, and thus it has a cause of its existence. This is a false argument. We cannot say that existence has a cause of its existence because existence does not have any existence to begin with.

I would also like to say that in any case, it doesn't seem that the existence of time causes motion. Time itself does not cause motion to exist, nor does it cause motion to exist and be caused by another. Time exists, and there is motion and motion causes existence. But to think that existence has causes is to think that a form of existence has a cause of its existence, which is to say that a form of existence exists, and thus has a beginning in time.

And to say that we can't say that time is a cause of motion is the same thing as saying that time is not a cause of motion. Because to say that we can't say that time is a cause of motion is to say that there is no reason we should say that time is a cause of motion.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 01:13:11 2021 No.19045467 >>19045129 Evil doesn't exist.

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 01:15:57 2021 No.19045482

imo, I'm more interested to hear how any argument for anything transcends language and subsequently, the brain. I know lit is mostly anti-materialist but if I had a part of my brain missing that hindered my ability to articulate thought I would just be dismissed as a retard or something. so really, even if God is real, he's not present on lit in any discernible way.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 01:17:34 2021 No.19045487 >>19045171 god wants beings closer to himself, this is part of the process

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 01:22:31 2021 No.19045501

>>19045416
thats cool, tell that to the countless women who were raped and murdered as trophies of war throughout history. especially the ones under ~13 years old, I'm sure that was part of the big thonk from God, who knows, understands, and actively regulates human behavior before and after you, anon, who are wiser than him, can understand

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 01:25:03 2021 No.19045506 >>19045129 there exist some but they are pretty crummy

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 01:25:54 2021 No.19045511 >>19045129 if God and his motives could be fully understood by such inferior beings, he would not be worthy of worship

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 01:28:03 2021 No.19045519 >>19045511 yeah, agreed. Pretty sure this was what Milton meant and he's been dead for like 400 years

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 01:30:02 2021 No.19045523 Big Nigga Head

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 01:33:47 2021 No.19045533 >>19045467 only correct take

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 01:36:48 2021 No.19045543 >>19045523 true

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 01:59:01 2021 No.19045605 >>19045501 women like being raped though

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 02:00:21 2021 No.19045611 >>19045605 well if we're made in God's image then God likes to be raped, right?

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS Tue Sep 14 02:13:10 2021 No.19045665 >>19045605 Rough sex isn’t rape, you wad of elephant dung.

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 02:27:08 2021 No.19045716

>>19045266
>you have to believe in and devote your soul to me while i ensure that all of reality contradicts and doesn't support my existence
It's kind of ridiculous. It seems like God only wants followers who are too stupid to look deeply into the various systems that our world functions on because every time you approach a meaningful level of depth in a scientific topic, it points to God's non-existence. It's so bizarre to me that Christians don't seem to get what a big ask it is to ask people to ignore reality and just have faith. They ask this of people as if its really simple to see a dog and convince yourself that it's actually a brick despite every bit of evidence confirming that it is indeed a dog. That's why Christianity is dying lmao, it only works when you have a population of people who don't understand the world and have no desire to understand it beyond what they absolutely need to survive. You need humans with no sense of drive, no creativity, no logical skills, no desire for understanding, things that are fundamental to most humans growing up in an age where we can actually answer questions with something other than "magic lol" . Its almost poetic that the best Christian would one without a human soul.

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 02:28:30 2021 No.19045721

>>19045467
And yet you don't give away your house and starve to death on the streets, almost like you think this is some kind of bad or something.

Also, don't christcucks realize that this is peak postmodern thinking and that this phrase completely undermines their entire worldview?

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 02:37:22 2021 No.19045762
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God is somewhat a misanthrope, he despises the masses and laughs at their destruction. You see some opioid addict die and think "oh no! that's awful! where is the justice??". His death IS justice. His genes were not passed on, that's justice enough. Oh no, but what about little Sally who died from cancer? "Was that just?" Yes, that's justice too. You just don't happen to like what it looks like in practice, and project your weakness onto God. The theists and atheists who believe God is some kind of SJW Santa Claus that gives candies as rewards have their heads stuck up their asses. God seems as malevolent to you and he does to local tranny, for exactly the same reasons. I don't believe in apologetics, there's a certain humor to all of this that I love (if you don't see it you probably lack the divine spark)

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 02:42:09 2021 No.19045776 >>19045721 >christcuck >realize oxymoron, if christcucks had any power of realization then they wouldn't be christcucks

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 02:50:45 2021 No.19045807

>>19045129
Because it's not logically possible for it not to exist without intruding on other things that we value like our free will. It's also presumptuous to assume that he would be malevolent for not preventing it since we are limited and don't understand the full scope of reality and what is to come.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 02:54:17 2021 No.19045822 >>19045762 Arbitrary asshole God is a legit theory.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 02:55:41 2021 No.19045831 File: 53 KB, 441x569, 1303845323433.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19045487 >god wants then he is incomplete, which makes him not perfect

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 02:58:40 2021 No.19045844

>>19045171
Good cannot exist without bad, we wouldn't have this conversation, and we would be living in a bland, tasteless world if it wasn't for bad and evil.

For instance, there is no courage without hardships, no heroes without evil.
When it comes to people with horrible fates, you'll find that a lot of the time they aren't that depressed, they find joy where they can, and I think that the hardships they face brings spirituality and a better understanding of the value of life.

Wanting evil and bad not to exist is a spoiled brat wet dream, people who really struggled understand the value of those

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:04:42 2021 No.19045868
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>>19045171
I always thought of it as God preferring differentiation and contrast to the state of monism. Not because of "boredom" or anything like that although that is a decent anthropomorphization of whatever really drove God to create the world.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:05:46 2021 No.19045872 >>19045844 Damn, those Japs must have raped at least 11 or 12 of those Chinese kids to balance out your existence. If I was God, I would at least go back in time to comfort them before those guys put bayonets up their asses.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:07:46 2021 No.19045881 >>19045872 What are you even rambling about, schizo? You make no sense

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:12:35 2021 No.19045895 >>19045881 justify the rape and murder of children in history when God had the ability to personally intervene

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:12:57 2021 No.19045897 >>19045881 >what are you rambling about schizo? >anyway, so the divine creator of the universe is like this

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:13:38 2021 No.19045899 >>19045895 free will.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:15:01 2021 No.19045904 >>19045844 >we would be living in a bland, tasteless world if it wasn't for bad and evil. Is that how your Heaven is?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:15:12 2021 No.19045905 >>19045899 what stops him from letting me initiate the act from my own free will and then vaporizing me for trying to go through with it thus saving the child? He's not removing my free will from the equation when I start it

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:16:11 2021 No.19045910 >>19045129 suffering builds character and god doesn't want you to be a boring fag

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:16:13 2021 No.19045911 >>19045844 So you're saying the struggle we go through due to our fall is a good thing?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:17:54 2021 No.19045915 >>19045899 >God is all knowing, present throughout all time and benevolent >Actual children, unable to comprehend good and evil, as they are under ~7 or 8 years old raped and murdered throughout time >SORRY LOL MY BAD WASNT WATCHING FREE WILL HAHA

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:17:57 2021 No.19045916 >>19045905 Because then there would be no point to faith, as god would be proved to exist

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:18:55 2021 No.19045917 >>19045905 actually cool idea because it implies God is a latent child rapist

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:20:27 2021 No.19045923 >>19045915 >anthropomorphize god >"WOW IT MAKES NO SENSE, WHY???"

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:21:04 2021 No.19045924 >>19045916 Why did God send Jesus, inspire the creation of the bible if he wanted us to believe in him based on faith? These are hints that he exists and thus they devalue faith

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:22:17 2021 No.19045928 >>19045923 Ty for proving my point. If God is real, no mortal is in a position to prove God doesn't like to rape children

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:22:29 2021 No.19045929

>>19045905
You are making a lot of presumptions, maybe being alive as an evil rapist is worse in gods eyes than being dead? If the bible is anything to go by, perhaps God allows them to live as punishment, and to give them an oppurtunity to change. As for the innocent victims there's no reason to think their suffering and death is so bad it can't be justified by what comes after.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:24:07 2021 No.19045933 >>19045928 True, but why would god "like" anything? Why would he be constrained by human feelings and thoughts?

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:24:35 2021 No.19045935

>>19045929
Hey I'm going to give you some GPS coordinates and if you don't mind coming down, I'm going to rape you for the rest of your life. I'm fairly sure God will give you a reward in the hereafter when I'm done with you. I assume you're good with this arrangement?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:24:46 2021 No.19045936 >>19045929 So there's no good and bad just moral relativism when it comes to god, the end justifies the means?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:25:38 2021 No.19045939 >>19045194 >Innocent babies must be doomed to suffer and die in order for unrelated third parties to learn their lesson Is this your mind on religion? also where exactly is the logic that seeing deformed babies leads to behaving better as a person?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:26:56 2021 No.19045944 >>19045933 >Why would he be constrained by human feelings and thoughts? >anthropomorphize god >"WOW IT MAKES NO SENSE, WHY???" Fuck off pseud, you don't get to have it both ways.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:27:41 2021 No.19045948 >>19045301 God needs to torment and torture small babies to prove a point to random other people? Huh?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:27:45 2021 No.19045949 >>19045935 >"Oh you like sugar, huh? Why don't I shove sugar down your throat for the rest of your life, and inject sugar in your veins, and and, and cut you open and put sugar in your open wounds????? surely you'll like it, huh?"

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:28:52 2021 No.19045951 >>19045944 Where did I anthropomorphize god? Except for saying "he", which is obviously done for clarity

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:29:07 2021 No.19045955

>>19045935
You're conflating my personal preference with what God, an infinite being. Is likely to care about. I don't want to suffer because I am a limited being with only a very small perspective and things that I care about, therefore I should probably be humble and not blame God for when the whole world doesn't bend to go my way because there are much higher levels of reality that can't be seen or comprehended.

>>19045936
Idk how you got that, in christian theology Good is absolutely real, evil has no metaphysical existence, it's just the negation of it's opposite.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:29:17 2021 No.19045956 >>19045951 How do you know god is a man bigot

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:31:18 2021 No.19045961 >>19045955 >Evil has no metaphysical existence So there's no evil, we only perceive evil as the absence of good thus making it relative to goodness?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:33:07 2021 No.19045965 >>19045961 Yes exactly, like how shadows are just the absence of light.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:34:34 2021 No.19045967 You know what rules? OP asked about the problem of evil, some anons talked about rape and murder and stealing and shit and nobody is talking about why God is okay with child rape.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:35:58 2021 No.19045972 >>19045967 We did, you just fancy ignoring it >>19045899

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:37:15 2021 No.19045974 >>19045965 So how can I be judged for something that doesnt exist?

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:38:44 2021 No.19045977

>>19045193
it's indeed the most coherent answer, but only works on an individual level, since any bad in the world is inherently good at the same time, i can say i'm doing a favor to a girl i just rape since i give her the chance to learn to strenghten herself and show her the dark side of the picture
if i only focus in the world as a spiritual challenge this answer is useful, the problem is i can't actually create a moral system thinking like that

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:40:22 2021 No.19045982 >>19045218 the problem remains, if we can't link goodness to god, then we can't use god to create a moral system thus god becomes useless

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:40:49 2021 No.19045985 >>19045977 just kill people, if that doesn't make them stronger then nothing will lol

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:42:12 2021 No.19045990 >>19045974 Why are children scared of the dark if it doesn't exist?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:42:56 2021 No.19045993 >>19045990 Because the previous argument is faulty, both dark and evil exist

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:43:57 2021 No.19045995 >>19045993 darkness doesn't physically exist, though, it is merely the absence of light

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:45:14 2021 No.19046003 >>19045995 If it doesnt physically exist then why are children scared of it

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:46:51 2021 No.19046008 Can we all at least agree not to hurt kids?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:51:17 2021 No.19046022 >>19045171 We deserve it

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS Tue Sep 14 03:57:58 2021 No.19046045 File: 261 KB, 2197x2197, FDBA50C2-7D6B-48B2-8456-1A026AFF788B.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19046022 False, therefore unsatisfactory

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:58:25 2021 No.19046047 >>19046008 define "agree"

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 03:59:03 2021 No.19046048 >>19046047 define hurting kids

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 04:00:01 2021 No.19046054 >>19045171 Because Bad People do Bad things. It's that fucking simple.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 04:00:30 2021 No.19046057 >>19046003 Because they are scared of the absence of light, just as people are punished for not being good.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 04:00:30 2021 No.19046058 >>19046048 The same definition as Foucault's

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 04:04:27 2021 No.19046074 >>19045129 Berserk already answered this question. God is the transcendental condition of evil itself. All other answers are schizo babble.

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 04:06:09 2021 No.19046081

True story, when you die you just go back to the nothing state you were before birth. If the soul is immortal, precedes the body, and retains memory then you should have knowledge of some kind of spacial anything before birth. And you should be able to articulate it if it's relative to the body. Just let it go. There is only oblivion after death. This doesn't have to be a bullshit argument on lit, you can really help as many people as you can through some work you do.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 04:07:19 2021 No.19046085 >>19046074 So Berserk is just midwit Neoplatonism Gotcha.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 04:07:26 2021 No.19046086 >>19046081 >retains memory why would you think this.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 04:09:16 2021 No.19046092 >>19046081 That's why Christians have the ex nihilo doctrine with respect to the soul.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 04:09:19 2021 No.19046093 >>19046085 You can cope all you want, you cannot refute it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 04:13:23 2021 No.19046112 >>19046086 idk, it's beyond idiotic to think it could. the brain is unreliable as it is

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 04:17:30 2021 No.19046123

>>19046112
The brain is a more likely candidate for things like memory. It's just like a gooey motherboard with some ram sticks and a hard drive wired up to the rest of your body. The soul doesn't have to be anything more than the consciousness/will/self of the person and I think most religions go along those lines.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 04:19:54 2021 No.19046132 >>19046081 >I have a silly assumption that the soul would retain previous memories (??) therefore god not real

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 04:26:50 2021 No.19046147 >>19045193 >there would be no point in life, if everything were just handed to you without difficulty This is just an opinion not really rooted in anything.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 04:29:17 2021 No.19046153 >>19045916 Why do we need faith if we could have certainty?

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 04:29:22 2021 No.19046154

>>19046132
>>19046123
A lot of people misinterprete Plato's statements about anamnesis as meaning that you can literally just remember absolutely anything by simply thinking hard enough. In reality he just meant that the eternal truths (he uses mathematical axioms as examples) are always present to the soul as basic facts of existence, and in this sense they are always remembered and not acquired by experience. There's the additional point that we can't just get geometric truths from nowhere, that they must have residence somewhere for us to be able to reason them as necessarily true, which is more or less Kant's transcendental aesthetic, except it's imputed to the "soul" rather than the transcendental apperception.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 04:36:13 2021 No.19046172 >>19046154 Well yeah existence can only happen in extremely particular conditions as we can see. Our observable mathematical truths are part of the conditions which enable life. This is not a big bummer, it's just math. You can still be ok.

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 04:45:00 2021 No.19046207

YHVH is ALL. Fractal, scale invariant. These questions only apply to an ignorant conception of YHVH as a singular individual diety like a man; YHVH is not. YHVH is ALL people, all things and all energies. YHVH is both concealed and revealed.

Psalm 82:6
I -- I have said, 'Gods ye are, And sons of the Most High -- all of you,

John 10:34
Jesus answered them, `Is it not having been written in your law: I said, ye are gods?

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 04:46:21 2021 No.19046213

>>19045716
>because every time you approach a meaningful level of depth in a scientific topic, it points to God's non-existence.
No it doesn't. A literalist conception of scripture in religion X or Y might be at odds with scientific theories but nothing points to God's non-existence at all.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 04:50:37 2021 No.19046225 >>19046207 >YHVH is both concealed and revealed The Islamic philosopher Ibn Arabi has brilliant theories about this but it gets a bit autistic because he divides everything into n tiers.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 04:52:22 2021 No.19046232 >>19045501 get off r/atheism and read Plato you're out of your league

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 04:55:26 2021 No.19046241 >>19045961 >So there's no evil, we only perceive evil as the absence of good thus making it relative to goodness? m8 how the fuck are you on /lit/ and not be familiar with this concept this board is full of children

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 04:57:06 2021 No.19046249 >>19045972 >children choose to get raped Why are christcucks such sickos? How do they even look at this in any way other than deep revolt?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 05:00:29 2021 No.19046265 File: 34 KB, 500x427, 1611952567979.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] God is Evil

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 05:01:28 2021 No.19046270 >>19046249 most priests are rapists, coincidence?

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 05:23:33 2021 No.19046323

Where do these basic cliche bullshit assumptions like "evil is the absence of good" and "darkness is the absence of light" come from? Seems like an opinionated bias posited as fact to me, bunch of sophistry. What's to say that light isn't the anomaly to the default of darkness? Or that "good" is the mere cessation of suffering? I swear to fuck, all of these theological arguments boil down to "my cognitive bias is right". And I'm sure someone will quote this with a greychad, thereby proving the futile sophistry of it all.

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 05:25:18 2021 No.19046328

>>19046323
>basic cliche bullshit assumptions like "evil is the absence of good"
It comes from a desire to cope and subsequent mental gymnastics. That kind of statement usually comes from people who are quite sheltered and haven't experienced suffering.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 05:27:31 2021 No.19046331 >>19046323 >Or that "good" is the mere cessation of suffering? It was at this moment that Anon reached Enlightenment.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 05:36:04 2021 No.19046356 >>19046331 well that was easy

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 05:49:53 2021 No.19046399

>>19046323
Nothing you said even comes close to refuting the actual substantial point, which is firmly rooted in ontology. Being cannot be drawn from an absence of absence because absence already presupposes being to begin with (negation of a negation). Non-being can be an absence of being because it is the simple negation which presupposes being. The more you examine phenomena like "good" and "evil", the more you realize that there is no real "evil action" in itself, there is only action which is not what it is supposed to be, which is usually labelled "evil." Without a "supposed" or "proper" action, there could not be any evil action. Non-being is dependent upon being just as evil is dependent upon good.
>What's to say that light isn't the anomaly to the default of darkness?
The fact that light or darkness is the "norm" or "anomaly" isn't the point. The point is that light is something and dark is the absence of something. Whether light is the "norm" or not is irrelevant. Darkness is only dark insofar as we are aware of what is "not there."

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 05:54:09 2021 No.19046424 >>19045181 Shut the fuck up, heathen

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 05:58:29 2021 No.19046437 >>19046213 So at best you can claim to have gnostic views (which is a meaningless belief that changes nil about your life), accepting any kind of dogma on top of it is idiotic

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 06:00:43 2021 No.19046442 >>19046399 >The more you examine phenomena like "good" and "evil", the more you realize that there is no real "evil action" in itself, Cognitive bias. You just want to believe in your own bullshit, but don't expect other people to buy into it too.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 06:01:45 2021 No.19046447 >>19046424 Seethe. He's right.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 06:15:32 2021 No.19046476 >thread about christianity >look at replies >filled with """atheist""" redditor tourists who haven't opened a book in years no point in casting pearls before swine, and I'm not even christian

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 06:23:17 2021 No.19046505 >>19046476 >>thread about christianity >op picrel is a quote by epicurus Classic retard.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 06:33:06 2021 No.19046546 >>19045129 Try Plantinga or Gödel

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 06:36:53 2021 No.19046560 >>19046442 Please, provide me an example of something which is evil in itself, along with the explanation of why it is evil in itself (ie, without referencing what is good).

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 06:38:33 2021 No.19046569 There's no progress without destruction. No change without it. All evils are the death of something.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 06:38:40 2021 No.19046571 >>19046442 Get fucking educated holy shit

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 06:41:17 2021 No.19046580 >>19046442 how can you be so confident and so retarded at the same time?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 06:46:30 2021 No.19046598 >>19045171 Who defines "bad thing" as bad, and why ? There is no such thing as "bad" nor "good", individuals define the "thing" as either "bad" or "good" according to their (metaphysical / nonexistent) beliefs and ideals.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 06:52:03 2021 No.19046619 >>19046560 >>19046571 >>19046580 Struck a nerve, plotinuscuck?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 06:54:39 2021 No.19046631 >>19046560 If I pulverize your child's skull with a hammer and make you watch, the act has no inherent substance, I'm just choosing to "not be good"? lmao you sheltered kids are fucking delusional You'll learn

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 06:54:57 2021 No.19046632 >>19046560 >example of something which is evil in itself Misfolded proteins.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 06:55:52 2021 No.19046637 >>19046619 Why don't you make an actual argument?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 06:57:02 2021 No.19046643 >>19046637 Don't need to, I know I'm right and you're wrong

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 06:57:35 2021 No.19046644 >>19046631 Nobody denies the existence of criminalistic acts, you hylic

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 06:58:36 2021 No.19046648 >>19046643 >we're right and you're wrong because.... we just are ok

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 07:00:45 2021 No.19046658 >>19046644 >uses dualist terminology even though he's a monist retard and yeah "criminalistics" Could you be any more disingenuous, faggot?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 07:02:22 2021 No.19046665 "Evil doesn't actually exist" is the most desperate sounding cope I have ever heard, honestly. Do any of you actually manage to convince yourselves of that, or do you know deep down that you're pretending?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 07:02:34 2021 No.19046667 >>19046644 >if it wasn't for the law then it would not be an evil act Try doing to literally any living creature. You'll get the same reaction.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 07:04:06 2021 No.19046672 >>19046658 Where did I use dualist terminology and assert that I'm a monist?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 07:04:39 2021 No.19046677 >>19046672 >ACKSHUALLY I'm a nondualist lmao

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 07:05:22 2021 No.19046682

>>19046631
You're either choosing to do harm by impeding the proper development of the child, or you're simply insane. Either way I would give you the death penalty and hope you have more success in a future life.
>>19046632
>Misfolded
How can something be considered misfolded? Why not just folded? "Mis"folded presupposes a correct way of folding proteins.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 07:06:36 2021 No.19046691 >>19046667 I meant it in the sense of being inclined to commit evil or injurious acts, please be charitable to your interlocutor for once

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 07:09:36 2021 No.19046705 >>19046682 >murdering a kid is "impeding his proper development" kek I'm being baited right?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 07:12:11 2021 No.19046718 >>19046705 Care to prove me wrong?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 07:14:27 2021 No.19046729 >>19046665 you're a midwit, so you don't understand what that actually means

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 07:17:54 2021 No.19046749 >>19046665 Read Leibniz.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 07:21:45 2021 No.19046765 >>19046729 Cope.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 07:24:36 2021 No.19046776 >>19046765 >buzzword You're a slave to the linguistic herd

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 07:26:39 2021 No.19046794 >>19046776 You're a slave period

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 07:28:47 2021 No.19046803 >>19046794 You're a slave's period

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 07:29:54 2021 No.19046816 >>19046803 You're gay

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 07:30:43 2021 No.19046820 >>19046816 You're weak

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 07:38:08 2021 No.19046861 >>19046820 You're out of control, and you've become an embarrassment to yourself and everybody else

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 07:42:33 2021 No.19046884 File: 362 KB, 1390x1658, 1551642561819.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19046861 pepeLOL.jpg

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 07:48:23 2021 No.19046921 >>19045171 The possibility of bad forces us to work towards good, making us evolve in the process.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 07:49:44 2021 No.19046928 >>19045171 God is evil Simple as

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 07:52:15 2021 No.19046937 >>19046147 Lack of struggle is one of the leading causes of emotional misery. That's why modernity has sky high rates of depression despite being the safest and most comfortable time to be living.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 07:53:15 2021 No.19046942 >>19046937 Infinite good without evil wouldn't leave the possibility for blandness or depression you fucking dumbass.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 07:55:25 2021 No.19046946 >>19046942 Read the post I'm replying to ADHD brainlet.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 07:55:33 2021 No.19046947 This logic makes god out to be a physical being who preforms actions. It's literally the midwit take of God, AKA your average atheist redditor

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 07:58:21 2021 No.19046952

>>19046942
At that point what's even the purpose of existence though? If there's no possibility of suffering and people can be fine without struggle why even live? You wouldn't even have the necessity to indulge in pleasures, pleasures are first and foremost a form of going from a worse to better state and you are eliminating the worse state from reality.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 08:00:37 2021 No.19046960 >>19046665 Unless you believe in God believing in evil as something absolute is nonsensical.

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 08:06:14 2021 No.19046978

The Bible answers every question, Atheists just cannot accept it.

No matter what you throw at them, they will always bring something else up as they will never be satisfied.

God Himself came to Earth and performed wonders and what did we do? We persecuted Him relentlessly, captured Him, mocked Him, lashed Him, starved Him, told Him to carry a cross through the streets in middle eastern heat while bystanders mocked Him, nailed Him to the cross, and then left Him to die.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 08:08:29 2021 No.19046984 >>19046978 cool it with the antisemitic remarks

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 08:10:28 2021 No.19046991 >>19046952 That's the nietzschean stance but the thread is about Christianity (presumably) >>19046978 What does that have to do with the thread? Yes, Jesus Christ suffered and died. If anything you're proving OP right

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 08:23:13 2021 No.19047060 >>19045129 Is this the kind of thing that atheists still find convincing? So embarrassing. Nothing has changed, it’s still the same old cringy misattributed/fake quotes as the heyday of new atheism

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 08:46:07 2021 No.19047141 >>19046978 I can nail God to a cross and humiliate Him? So much for omnipotence.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 09:52:26 2021 No.19047506 >>19045716 >Its almost poetic that the best Christian would one without a human soul. Materialism IS Catholicism so...

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 10:03:02 2021 No.19047565 File: 80 KB, 768x485, OIP.plRWxBHK2z9dJr9qzf7sOAHaEr.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19045129 The error creeps in at the 4th line. Not all evil should be prevented. Ruthlessness is, after all, the kindness of the wise.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 10:04:32 2021 No.19047573 >>19045129 Define evil.

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 10:19:28 2021 No.19047647

>>19046437
>your only choices are fundamentalism or gnostism
no
> followers who are too stupid to look deeply into the various systems that our world functions on
it was followers who helped the tradition of studying the material to flourish
their faiths were not shaken

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 10:21:02 2021 No.19047652 >>19045721 >>19045776 >darkness doesnt exist >and yet you turn on a lightbulb at night pseud

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 10:21:34 2021 No.19047653 >>19045129 Evil is just a cope for describing people who are blowing you the fuck out in some regard.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 10:25:45 2021 No.19047670 >>19045171 Demiurgos.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 10:30:30 2021 No.19047690 >>19045129 God is a neutral entity, morally ambiguous, there's no ultimate good and evil

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS Tue Sep 14 10:36:12 2021 No.19047728 >>19047690 So malevolent Zeus. Got it.

>>	Pseudo-Pseudo Dionysius Tue Sep 14 10:41:20 2021 No.19047752 >>19045948 It is the ripple effects of the sin of Adam. If sin had no consequence in this life, we would not know how evil and corrupting it really is. We choose to sin. We continue this trend. It is our fault, not God's.

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 10:44:37 2021 No.19047770

>>19047728
Not exactly, the ultimate being can't be just malevolent, consider this a penentheistic take, God is both good evil both and neither, a perfect and absolute being would be every thing, whether possible or no. A truly omnipotent being wouldn't be bound by logic as logic is whatever he wants it to be, this also refutes the whole "can God create a rock so heavy even he can't lift it?"

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 10:46:22 2021 No.19047779 >>19047728 bubs go to bed you don't know what the fuck you're talking about

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS Tue Sep 14 10:48:06 2021 No.19047788 >>19047770 Simply put, just like say, Joe Biden. He’s probably had some nice moments in his life, but he’s also malevolent. So again, just like I said. Malevolent Zeus.

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS Tue Sep 14 10:49:29 2021 No.19047797 >>19047779 I stated it in the first post. Thread doesn’t need rehashing over it beyond that. You pick your conception of it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 10:58:09 2021 No.19047843 >>19047788 No, not at all, think of the universe as a work of fiction, there's a villain and a good guy, and both are created by an author who creates them as part of his work of fiction, the work of fiction is created just because.

« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS Tue Sep 14 11:04:29 2021 No.19047873

>>19047843
So, Joe Biden as author, writes of his duel nature. The hero is given the triumph and everyone thinks the Author a good guy, as he approves war spending, bomb dropping, and pedophilia.
Just like Zeus, just like Yhwh. Stop with the denial

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 11:08:23 2021 No.19047900

>>19045129
>This fucking thread again
The problem lies in ones definition of what evil even is.
>BAD THING HAPPENING IS EEEEEVVVVILLL
No. A natural disaster is not evil. A tiger attacking you is not evil. Getting ill is not evil. Evil is something alone that must be willfully chosen and God allowed man to make his choices. God teaches to do good and tries to lead mankind down a righteous path, the choices past that and the consequences therein are on mankind's shoulders.
The same fucking problem comes up again and again from atheists pretending to be intelligent when they can't realize a simple fact: You personally not being able to understand something does not mean it makes no sense.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 11:21:32 2021 No.19048009 File: 392 B, 300x300, Donda.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19047873 butterfly what did you think of donda

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 11:32:39 2021 No.19048112
File: 19 KB, 657x527, 1630922073064.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>19047873
You don't understand, God is not a person he can't be the good/bad guy, he can't be malevolent, he's just there, he doesn't change his creation, he creates his creation which remains unchanged for eternity if you can see above time, there's no good and evil as free will doesn't exist, neither God has a "free will" since to have free will one must change and change implies imperfection, God is simply a force unbound by morality

« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS Tue Sep 14 11:40:09 2021 No.19048171

>>19048112
>God is not a person
Should have stopped there.
He is 100% fiction. You’re describing a fiction.
But when you sink back into delusion, you are accepting his malevolence by excusing him of the same moralities imposed on you. Go be a fool somewhere else.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 11:45:48 2021 No.19048208 File: 1.51 MB, 425x481, 1630877461331.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19048171 Bold of you assume I accept any moralities for myself either

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS Tue Sep 14 11:49:08 2021 No.19048235 >>19048208 Why do you assume I’m unaware of my own Christian history?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 11:50:52 2021 No.19048253 >>19048171 >He is 100% fiction. You’re describing a fiction. No he's describing the utter absolute, the essence of Being. The singular existence which encompasses the universe.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 11:52:53 2021 No.19048268 >>19048235 I didn't?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 11:54:07 2021 No.19048274 >>19048171 So ditch morality since this existence is clearly immoral?

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS Tue Sep 14 11:54:36 2021 No.19048281 >>19048253 > which encompasses the universe. Nyx is the entire universe. Why is Yhwh just the emptiness? How feminine. What a ridiculous cosmology

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 12:10:39 2021 No.19048374

>>19048281
What I'm describing is Chaos in the Greek mythos, not Nyx, and I don't believed in yhwh, at least not in a yhwh that is anything but the tribal God of Jews
>>19048274
Exactly, and I mean any form of morality, even the idea that you must seek pleasure.

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 12:32:38 2021 No.19048533

>>19045129
The answer is to test our love for him.
We commit evil, are tempted by evil etc.
It's a matter of whether we choose to run with those temptations or to love and serve God.
From God's perspective, there's more meaning to having a free creature freely giving himself to you, vs. something like an animal or robot that just follows a code without free will.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 12:40:15 2021 No.19048581 >>19047900 >Evil is something alone that must be willfully chosen God doesn't willfully choose to not intervene to prevent natural disasters?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 12:41:54 2021 No.19048591 >>19048581 Why in the hell would he do that?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 12:42:03 2021 No.19048593 >>19048533 this is all fine but it just means God isn't omnibenevolent, which is what's in question

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 12:43:28 2021 No.19048599 >>19048591 to prevent suffering

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 12:47:59 2021 No.19048636

>>19048599
Suffering isn't evil nor is it necessarily evil to let it happen. What's better? To always take your kid's hand away from the stove when they wanna touch the cool glowing thing or to let them get burned once? You'll cripple them if you always prevent them from learning even if it hurts.
But that's also an important thing in life: "even if it hurts". It's often suffering to do the right thing, it's suffering to learn, it's suffering to grow. Yet we do it anyway because it's for the best.
>inb4 but we don't grow from natural disasters
We stopped living in straw huts, didn't we? We learned much and more about the world didn't we? Not to mention all of the natural disasters are byproducts of a wonderful world that provides wind and rain and a wonderful universe that provides the physics by which we exist.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 12:51:30 2021 No.19048667 >>19048636 is it immoral for a human being to not save someone from a tiger attack or natural disaster if it's entirely in his power to do so?

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 13:00:07 2021 No.19048723

>>19048636
>To always take your kid's hand away from the stove when they wanna touch the cool glowing thing or to let them get burned once?

If you were all powerful, all knowing and omnibenevolent, there wouldn't even be a need for a stove in the first place

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 13:02:04 2021 No.19048729

>>19048667
Depends really. Generally yes, but if he makes it his mission to have the people dependent on him instead of them just not fucking with the Tiger or moving out of tornado alley, then no it wouldn't be immoral to let them figure it out themselves.
The question is irrelevant and one that always comes up after because we've had this same fucking thread some few thousand times. God is not human. He does not exist as a human. Yet everyone attempts to apply human understanding to him.
Take yourself on this little thought exercise and if you still have the same inclinations after, feel free to come back.
Think about what it means to be a human in the grander scheme of things:
>Where do your beliefs come from?
>Where does your life begin and end in the context of THE beginning and THE end?
>What ways might your understanding of the world be changed if you yourself existed outside of humanity?
>How have you grown from good things happening to you?
>How have you grown from bad things happening to you?
With humans, our understanding is often limited to the short slice of time we're alive in. It's affected by what others before us deemed right and wrong, and especially by what we're taught. Try and imagine how something you view as wrong might be right. You don't have to convince yourself of it, just try to see it from a different perspective. It's something we see a lot in our everyday lives but the other perspective we have to see is another human's and thus is comparatively easier.
>>19048723
This post is just retarded.

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 13:06:29 2021 No.19048751

>>19048729
>This post is just retarded.

No, sorry, it isn't. If God were all powerful, all knowing and omnibenevolent, there would be zero need for suffering. In fact, the only thing that's retarded is you suffering as a lesson cope. Lesson for what? What would anyone need to learn anything for? Learning is usually to aquire skills, which are usually to overcome hardships, which wouldn't exist in the first place if your version of God existed.

So clearly your version of the divine is complete bullshit and you just can't handle it like a big boy

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 13:10:13 2021 No.19048772

>>19048729
>God is not human. He does not exist as a human. Yet everyone attempts to apply human understanding to him.
it's fine to apply entirely different standards of morality to God but this just makes it at best trivial and at worst vacuous to say that he is omnibenevolent. just talking past each other at that point

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 13:11:47 2021 No.19048782 >>19045129 Theologicians are based on myths and "revelation" (more myths), they can't use reason to argue in favour of the existance of those myths as theologicians

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 13:23:22 2021 No.19048859 >>19045129 Epicurus was an asshole

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 13:31:34 2021 No.19048908

>>19048772
You make a good point and it is something I considered while making my post as just before I had spoken of God as if he were a parent teaching a child that heat is hot.
The best way I'd currently be able to explain it is that he is benevolent when you try to understand things from his perspective which is of itself not entirely possible.
Take for example the Israelites and the Canaanites from back in the OT when God had a nasty bitch streak. If you were to look at it from a human perspective, you would see God telling his precious people to literally MURDER everyone. Men, women, children, no survivors no how. And that the Israelites would have done a good thing by sparing women and children. However, if we were to look at this from God's perspective, he is telling his people to rip out the neighboring seed of evil and to raze it to the ground. Don't take their women as trophies, don't take their treasures for yourselves, and don't take their children as the seed is already within them. To God, a person living is someone who can carry the word and make choices, a person dead is not gone. He exists outside the context of life and death and while you may argue that's retarded and a dead person is a dead person, we're not looking at this from our human perspectives and working with the assumption for the moment that God is real. God told them to rip out the seed of evil that would lead his people astray and inevitably come for his people (as historical evidence suggests), and the only way to do that was to remove Canaan from the map and NOT take their treasures made to worship idols like Moloch and the like, leaving them to burn. However, his people disobeyed him thinking that they knew what was right and saved the children, they gave into lust and saved the women, and they gave into greed and took home these idols, talismans, and gold and bronze statues fashioned in the shape of devils. This by God's perspective led to the corruption of his people that continued to worship these false deities and to this day we still face the repercussions of such actions.
That last line is important. To the Israelites, they could not have known what future effects such a thing would have, yet God would. So for all the people that died in the name of Moloch, for all the evil it would perpetuate, and for all the cruelty its worship would create, the Canaanites needed to be removed.
If it still feels like we're talking past each other, then I apologize for not being able to speak clearly enough, my mind has been rather addled of late, but I appreciate you not being retarded like this guy >>19048751

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 14:27:25 2021 No.19049243 Darkness doesn't exist only absence of light Evil doesnt exist only failure to choose good (God)

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 14:30:53 2021 No.19049263

>>19045129
I take the Pantheist approach to this question.

Simply certain allocation of matter in specific position in time in was way that it draws essence of what we human consider evil, is not evil to an absolute from which goodness the matter, time and essence proceeds.

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 18:49:56 2021 No.19051031
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Evil has no positive ontological reality, it is a privation of goodness (like a shadow). Yet, of course, the word evil still refers to an aspect of reality, just as a shadow does, despite not having an action independent existence. It can be seen more accurately as a characteristic which humans apply to those actions which appear to be particularly deprived of the good, in a seemingly total way.

The Epicurean dilemma's first proposition, then could be rephrased as follows:
"Is God willing to prevent [those actions which humans call "evil"], but not able?"
Answer: Those actions come about as a result of the intrinsic good of free-will which humans possess, which by necessity requires the ability to not do only perfectly-good actions. Thus, for God to prevent [those actions which humans call "evil"] would necessitate that the even greater good of human sentience and free-will be non-existent. The universe is logically consistent, so X can not both be A and not A, at the same time, and in the same manner. Thus, a rephrasing of the initial answer can be given by applying the principle of non-contradiction: a human can not both free, and unable to perform [those actions which humans call "evil"].
Thus, in this way, we know that it is impossible for humans to not be able to perform [actions which we call "evil"], while also maintaining free-will.

But how do we know free-will is good, such that it is preferable to have it at the cost of the evils while arise from it? Consider, for example, a human who is genetically engineered to have no free-will, and to take pleasure from being raped and abused, who is then sold as a sex slave. We recognize that there would be something intrinsically disordered about the individuals who engineer and sell this person, despite the fact that there is no utilitarian-type pain or suffering involved in the subject. Thus, we see that having free-will is good, because creating a sentient being without it who nevertheless performs certain functions of service (such as worship, in the case of God creating humans) seems intrinsically disordered. Incidentally, this is also an argument as to why the angels should have been allowed to rebel against God.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 19:11:42 2021 No.19051168 >>19045171 yes, leibniz.

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 19:18:12 2021 No.19051198

>>19045129
Wouldn't you simply adhere to the belief that freedom of human nature is the greatest freedom? And that everything that might entail is a necessary counter-balance? I'm not religious but that seems like an easy argument you could use, that you are free to experience the human world independently, and that it bears necessary consequences.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 19:19:22 2021 No.19051206 >>19045181 >but of course contradicts that God is omnipotent Does it? Doesn't it just mean that God is encompassed in everything both good and bad?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 19:58:22 2021 No.19051397 >>19045129 No. No theologian has ever written anything on the problem of evil. Not one. Never.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 21:04:47 2021 No.19051689 >>19045171 You are an animal on a rock.

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 21:26:20 2021 No.19051766

A perfect Being couldn't have created the universe. Because creation implies that such a Being lacked something and had to bring it into existence, such that his perfection is dependent on something contingent and created. Therefore God if he created the universe is neither perfect nor self-sufficient.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 21:48:56 2021 No.19051859 >>19051766 that assumes he exist within linear time

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 21:51:08 2021 No.19051867 >>19051859 No, it merely assumes that God has free will (that he could have created or not).

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 22:00:47 2021 No.19051907 >>19045171 >>>Yes, what even is good/evil in the absence of God? It's like asking if clouds exist then why do they let rain happen? It's retarded because rain happening presupposes the existence of clouds.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 22:01:15 2021 No.19051909 >>19045171 Basically bad thing can be good. Good thing can be bad. And what defines each Also >epicurians

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 22:15:26 2021 No.19051992

>>19045129
"Beauty is perfection in combination with freedom."
If God cannot give freedom to his Son then what may be said of His creation? It is never complete, and never beautiful. It is like the father who fails to recognise the limits of time and refuses to allow his son to succeed him, or go off on his own. He destroys his own line, his creation and the highest law of life is void.
The greatest triumph of creation would be for it to take its own form, to steal victory from Evil all on its own.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 22:21:32 2021 No.19052027 >>19051992 The Seventh Day is rest and eternity, Man must also find it. Thus the infinite conflict of work and death.

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 22:24:18 2021 No.19052042

The free will defence is utterly implausible and no one invokes it in any other context except esoteric discussions about theodicy. If a policeman sees an innocent man being mogged on the street no one will accept the excuse that he didn't want to interfere with the thief's will to steal. And of course the defence doesn't even begin to address the question of natural evils.

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 22:26:43 2021 No.19052054

>>19052042
Fundamentally it is an explanation of how evil exists rather than a justification for its justification for its existence; the real justification is that "God's ways are mysterious" or that "God's goodness and love are not as we limited, fallen creatures understand it." Of course, this renders His goodness and love meaningless concepts, alien and inaccessible to us save through what His actions and decrees are (which can easily be forged or experienced in "dreams and visions"). Hence, if there is no God, everything is permissible. If there is a God, everything is permittable.

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 22:29:12 2021 No.19052063

>>19052042
God is not a policeman, retard. Try comprehending arguments before making a fool of yourself. If all evil actions are prevented before they occur, then morality no longer exists, ipso facto.
> And of course the defence doesn't even begin to address the question of natural evils.
Of course it doesn't, because you don't have a clue. Natural "evils" are God's punishment for those who have done wrong, either in this life or previous ones. They exist for the same reason you exist in this seemingly "random" body. It's all a consequence of past actions. Punishment and justice is delayed because otherwise morality would become meaningless and men would not properly have free will.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 22:30:57 2021 No.19052070 John Chrysostom and Cassian

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 22:31:54 2021 No.19052074 >>19051206 Yes, it works out for most religions because their Gods aren't wholly good or all powerful, it's really only the Abrahamic God that trips on it because that one was written like a powerlevel fanfic.

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 22:38:59 2021 No.19052104

>>19045171
Man creates evil, not God. God created man in His image and thus bestowed upon man free will, which necessarily allows man to turn away from God. Bad thing happen not because God is not omnipotent and not because he is not willing or malevolent, but because we have free will and will evil.

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 22:42:51 2021 No.19052122

>>19052063
>Natural "evils" are God's punishment for those who have done wrong, either in this life or previous ones
Can you prove that there is a connection between acts of nature and one's own evils? Is there a way to verify this, or at the very least a rational hypothesis?

>>19052074
And there is no way to verify if the entity is not lying, self-aggrandizing, or actually omnipotent and omniscient (it could simply know many things and have many powers, and we are convinced and go no further because we are too limited to test its powers correctly).

>>19052104
God created man, man made evil; therefore, God is responsible for the creation of evil. Free will was not necessary nor is it necessarily a good (only what God does is good; if He did not imbue us with free will, that would have been good). This extreme vulnerability to sin and the temptations of Satan were also unnecessary

>Bad thing happen God is not omnipotent and not because he is not willing or malevolent, but because we have free will and will evil.
That just moves the responsibility to man, which is still God's responsibility. It's just indirect now.

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 22:50:57 2021 No.19052160

>>19052122
>God created man, man made evil; therefore, God is responsible for the creation of evil.
That doesn’t follow and in fact what you’re to talk of sole sort of indirect complicity or being unnecessary of free is logically absurd.

God made man in His image. Had man not had free will, man would not have been made in His image. Thus, to talk about whether or not it’s good or of necessity or of complicity that we have free will and demand an explanation in light of it is to demand an explanation for a position that Christian theology flatly denies, namely, the context of a world wherein man was not made in the image of God.

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 22:55:43 2021 No.19052180

>>19052160
>That doesn’t follow and in fact what you’re to talk of sole sort of indirect complicity or being unnecessary of free is logically absurd.
It most certainly does follow because God, existing outside of time, is responsible for the creation and active maintenance of everything that exists. He did not eat the apple for Adam, or just spontaneously generate evil, but He used Adam and Satan as vectors for the creation of evil. Does the house of cards fall because of the wind or because you made it a house of cards? Both are culpable, but God is the limitless creator, not the creation, so He is especially accountable.

>Had man not had free will, man would not have been made in His image
This assumes that you know what "made in His image means" (it could simply mean possessing eternal life). It is obvious that there are certain qualities only God possesses, despite us being "made in His image." Thus, "being made in His image" does not mean that we possess ALL of His attributes; perhaps free will is one of the attributes He has that we lack.

>is to demand an explanation for a position that Christian theology flatly denies
Christian theology is a mountain of presupposition relying on flimsy historicity. You cannot verify any of it, only that it is internally consistent and best accords with the dubious information you base it on.

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 23:00:12 2021 No.19052198

>>19052063
>God is not a policeman, retard. Try comprehending arguments before making a fool of yourself. If all evil actions are prevented before they occur, then morality no longer exists, ipso facto.
That only follows if you take the view that goodness cannot exist without evil, which is incompatible with Christianity since God's goodness does not require the existence of evil. On the other hand if good actions can exist without evil existing, the elimination of evil does not entail the elimination of morality.
>Of course it doesn't, because you don't have a clue. Natural "evils" are God's punishment for those who have done wrong, either in this life or previous ones. They exist for the same reason you exist in this seemingly "random" body. It's all a consequence of past actions. Punishment and justice is delayed because otherwise morality would become meaningless and men would not properly have free will.
That's an even worse defence than the free will one. Why exactly does God's punishment have to wait 70 years?

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 23:02:59 2021 No.19052207

>>19052198
They will straddle the line between "anything God does is good and incomprehensible to us" (e.g., as a response to 'why does God's punishment have to wait 70 years?) and "God MUST give us free will and act in an anthropomorphic, loving way with us- any theory of God that does not accord with my idea of such a God is speaking about a false God!" (when God is a completely alien entity that we are twice-removed from thanks to the Fall, so we cannot judge God AT ALL- He is the source of our morality, He and His actions are the standard for good, not humanism or our expectations).

It's all about having the cake and eating it

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 23:05:56 2021 No.19052215

>>19045721
are you the same person in every thread make the same shit non argument??
no matter how many crrrAAAzzy "sufferings" you can whip up it does not matter
evil is not real
and it will never be anything more then the made up realitive social mechanism
there is nothing real about it (or anything) unless you are some sort of realist fop

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 23:06:26 2021 No.19052218 >>19045129 Chardin might call it symbolic entropy.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 23:07:31 2021 No.19052224 >>19045129 Suffering is good.

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 23:09:05 2021 No.19052236

>>19052215
I think the problem is their realization that human suffering has no value to God; He allows it to continue indefinitely and we are left with justifying it with (themselves) unjustifiable and unverifiable axioms such as "you sinned, therefore God punished you with suffering." Of course, it's unproveable because we are always sinning and we will just assume that however much suffering was had was proportional to the sin.

We send people to eternal Hell and sway the decisions of empires on purely hypothetical grounds

Anonymous Tue Sep 14 23:11:05 2021 No.19052244

>>19052224
Of course, by "good" you really just mean justifiable, otherwise you would be seeking it as a virtue or as an end, such as chastity or patience. It is "good" after all, no? I know that suffering comes to you whether you seek it or not, but why not seek out more of this "good?" It is so easy of a good to acquire.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 14 23:40:20 2021 No.19052360 File: 493 KB, 785x565, 1631677220894.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>19052244 That's real thing among the hard core abrahamics, look up self flagellation.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 15 00:03:08 2021 No.19052481 Reading a little bit of the thread just affirms to me how absurd the idea of God really is. What nonsense.

Anonymous Wed Sep 15 00:10:03 2021 No.19052521

>reading Euthyphro thanks to this thread

SOCRATES: Tell me then what this form itself is, so that I may look upon it and, using it as a model, say that any action of yours or another’s that is of that kind is pious, and if it is not that it is not.
EUTHYPHRO: If that is how you want it, Socrates, that is how I will tell you.
SOCRATES: That is what I want.
EUTHYPHRO: Well then, what is dear to the gods is pious, what is not is impious.
SOCRATES: Splendid, Euthyphro! You have now answered in the way I wanted. Whether your answer is true I do not know yet, but you will obviously show me that what you say is true.

Kek what a troll. Loving it already, thanks /lit/.

Anonymous Wed Sep 15 00:13:54 2021 No.19052537

>>19052360
I know, but it doesn't go far enough, and far too few apply it or view it as true Christianity. Perhaps asceticism is a better alternative, but it also does not mortify or debase the flesh enough; it still chases after the pleasure of overcoming the "passions" (natural urges, often) and basically has at its root the same joy brought on by extreme athleticism- like those skin and bones long-distance joggers or life-detoxed vegans.

Anonymous Wed Sep 15 00:31:53 2021 No.19052611

>>19052122
>Can you prove that there is a connection between acts of nature and one's own evils
The principle of sufficient reason, which underpins everything, is sufficient proof of the connection.
>Is there a way to verify this
Not experimentally, which is probably what you mean by "verify." Scientific analysis does not have access to consciousness or will. All it can do is analyze exterior events, the succession of events, very basic cause-and-effect. At this level, everything naturally appears random yet still connected randomly. In reality, at a level beyond exterior analysis, nothing is connected randomly.
>>19052198
>since God's goodness does not require the existence of evil.
Evil requires the existence of good. This does not mean that evil either has to exist, or that it does exist. In practicality however, it does exist, because our own freedom with respect to God, and the potentiality of us doing harm to ourselves and one another, ultimately outweighs whatever harm we commit. Freedom is ultimately a greater good (both for God and for us) than servitude and bondage.
>That's an even worse defence than the free will one. Why exactly does God's punishment have to wait 70 years?
No it's not, and you have no refutation of it. Why would punishments not wait 70 years? Why would punishment come straight away? If punishment did come straight away, morality, as I said, would ipso facto cease to exist because there would be absolutely no freedom to ever act contrary to what is good. Secondly, in a way, punishment does come immediately. It is the pang of regret and the interior degradation of one's own self-worth. In a way, this is often worse than any external punishment which can be inflicted. A coward dies a thousand deaths.

Anonymous Wed Sep 15 00:46:06 2021 No.19052679

>>19052611
>Evil requires the existence of good. This does not mean that evil either has to exist, or that it does exist. In practicality however, it does exist, because our own freedom with respect to God, and the potentiality of us doing harm to ourselves and one another, ultimately outweighs whatever harm we commit.
You are not tracking the dialectic. You originally replied to my policeman example by saying that "If all evil actions are prevented before they occur, then morality no longer exists, ipso facto". To which I responded that unless good actions requires the existence of evil actions, the elimination of evil actions does not entail the elimination of good actions. This is what you have to respond to.
>No it's not, and you have no refutation of it. Why would punishments not wait 70 years? Why would punishment come straight away? If punishment did come straight away, morality, as I said, would ipso facto cease to exist because there would be absolutely no freedom to ever act contrary to what is good.
In both cases you are free to act contrary to what is good, the only difference is that in my hypothetical you are being punished immediately rather than the punishment being delayed for 70 years. And the question is why does God's punishment have to wait.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 15 00:47:35 2021 No.19052684 >>19045129 He is omnipotent, benevolent, able, and willing. He just takes a break on sundays, and that's when shit happens.

Anonymous Wed Sep 15 00:55:38 2021 No.19052712

>>19052218
>Utopian optimism is depressing and ruthless. I remember for instance my encounter with Teilhard de Chardin. He was babbling enthusiastically on the cosmic evolution toward Christ, the Omega point, etc. I finally asked him what he thought of human suffering. 'Pain and suffering,' he said, 'are simply accidents of evolution.' I left at once, indignant, refusing to converse with someone so mentally defective.

Cioran

Anonymous Wed Sep 15 01:10:24 2021 No.19052765

>>19052679
>the elimination of evil actions does not entail the elimination of good actions
You are not tracking the argument yourself. Elimination of all wrong entails the elimination of all freedom, and freedom is the fundamental prerequisite for good. Good cannot exist without freedom, and freedom itself is good. Asking whether a slave, bound in all his actions, is good is meaningless. The slave is neither good nor bad, but he is bad insofar as he is not free. You are quite literally not following this train of thought if you cannot understand that freedom is a prerequisite of morality, of good and bad.
>In both cases you are free to act contrary to what is good
No, you're not. A minute ago you said God should be a policeman and immediately prevent all crimes (meaning one cannot make a bad choice at all, meaning one is not free). Now you're saying it's fine if God allows evil to occur and then punishes it immediately (thereby permitting free will, at least in theory). Which one are you going to stick with? They are mutually exclusive. Next, if God is allowed to punish post hoc, then, please, explain to me why he would punish immediately as opposed to in the future if freedom itself is both good and the prerequisite of good action? If everyone knew they would be punished immediately, this would be exactly equivalent to non-possession of freedom, and we come back to the first point. If freedom of action is to exist, punishment must be delayed so that actions can be carried through at all without the action being made immediately worthless and thereby nullifying freedom to choose otherwise. If I put a thief in your house under constant surveillance (he knows 100% he will be caught if he even goes near your wallet), meaning he can steal from your wallet at any moment but if he does, then I will immediately haul him off to prison, is he free to steal? No, he is not. Let's say hypothetically if you are trying to determine the thief's character, if you want to know his true character (whether he is good or bad with respect to theft), you will make him think he can get away with stealing your wallet, and then see what he does.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 15 01:16:27 2021 No.19052793 File: 2.00 MB, 500x375, 1630290226069.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >metaphysics

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 15 01:18:21 2021 No.19052805 >>19052793 Touch grass, hyl- oh... oh. Well, whatever, fuck you.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 15 01:23:50 2021 No.19052824 >>19052765 >Let's say hypothetically if you are trying to determine the thief's character But an almighty god already knows, it knows everything so there's fuck all point waiting for the thief to commit the crime or even being born into the world.

Anonymous Wed Sep 15 01:29:28 2021 No.19052849

>>19048599
>>19048723
>i-if God is g-good why doesn't he wind me up like a marionette made of porcelain and make sure that not even the slightest "evil" or "suffering" can befall upon me?
God let his own son, or himself incarnate rather, die on a cross after being publicly tortured and ridiculed
you have a warped view of what christianity and "good" are

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 15 01:42:03 2021 No.19052890 >>19046270 retarded kike

Anonymous Wed Sep 15 01:47:08 2021 No.19052905

Omnibenevolent God =/= Personal Bodyguard God

I'm an atheist, and even I can acknowledge that this equivalence is dumb.

God willing existence into reality =/= God willing every single event thereafter into reality.

And:

God not willing every single event =/= God is not omnipotent

There's a false equivalence between "will" and "capability" here. God could very well be omnipotent but simply choose to not intervene.

>but he's omnibenevolent and omniscient, so he knows that those bad things will happen to us but will do nothing about them
See the top of this post.

There are many flaws to point out in the Christian idea of god. This is not one of them.

Anonymous Wed Sep 15 01:50:49 2021 No.19052926

>a. The chief purpose of life is not happiness, but the knowledge of God. One reason that the problem of evil seems so puzzling is that we tend to think that if God exists, then His goal for human life is happiness in this world. God’s role is to provide comfortable environment for His human pets. But on the Christian view this is false. We are not God’s pets, and man’s end is not happiness in this world, but the knowledge of God, which will ultimately bring true and everlasting human fulfillment. Many evils occur in life which maybe utterly pointless with respect to the goal of producing human happiness in this world, but they may not be unjustified with respect to producing the knowledge of God. Innocent human suffering provides an occasion for deeper dependency and trust in God, either on the part of the sufferer or those around him. Of course, whether God's purpose is achieved through our suffering will depend on our response. Do we respond with anger and bitterness toward God, or do we turn to Him in faith for strength to endure?

>b. Mankind is in a state of rebellion against God and His purpose. Rather than submit to and worship God, people rebel against God and go their own way and so find themselves alienated from God, morally guilty before Him, and groping in spiritual darkness, pursuing false gods of their own making. The terrible human evils in the world are testimony to man’s depravity in this state of spiritual alienation from God. The Christian is not surprised at the human evil in the world; on the contrary, he expects it. The Bible says that God has given mankind over to the sin it has chosen; He does not interfere to stop it, but lets human depravity run its course. This only serves to heighten mankind’s moral responsibility before God, as well as our wickedness and our need of forgiveness and moral cleansing.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 15 01:53:11 2021 No.19052934 >>19052793 Based and /thread

Anonymous Wed Sep 15 02:30:23 2021 No.19053053

>>19052765
>You are not tracking the argument yourself. Elimination of all wrong entails the elimination of all freedom, and freedom is the fundamental prerequisite for good. Good cannot exist without freedom, and freedom itself is good. Asking whether a slave, bound in all his actions, is good is meaningless. The slave is neither good nor bad, but he is bad insofar as he is not free. You are quite literally not following this train of thought if you cannot understand that freedom is a prerequisite of morality, of good and bad.
What do you think is the right choice for the policeman to make, arrest the criminal before he commits theft, or respect his freedom and leave him be? The later is equivalent to affirming that people have the right not to be interfered with no matter the choices they make, something no one believes in.
>No, you're not. A minute ago you said God should be a policeman and immediately prevent all crimes (meaning one cannot make a bad choice at all, meaning one is not free). Now you're saying it's fine if God allows evil to occur and then punishes it immediately (thereby permitting free will, at least in theory). Which one are you going to stick with? They are mutually exclusive.
Because we are having two different arguments? That's why we keep splitting our posts in half using greentext. The first is about the free will defense, the second about the reason God's punishment is not immediate.
You say that a thief who is under constant surveillance and knows he will certainly get caught and sent immediately to prison if he tries to steal the wallet is not free. I agree. But how is he any more free if he knows he will not be send immediately to prison, but after 70 years he will be sent to prison for all eternity? In both cases his freedom is infringed upon, hence it makes no sense to say that "Punishment and justice is delayed because otherwise morality would become meaningless and men would not properly have free will".

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 15 02:32:59 2021 No.19053061 >>19049263 Most serious theists take the same approach

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 15 02:53:06 2021 No.19053132 >>19052905 it really took an atheist to make you faggots shut up

Anonymous Wed Sep 15 03:08:43 2021 No.19053173

>>19053053
>What do you think is the right choice for the policeman
Not the same as the right choice for God. We've already established this much. Policemen exist for a different reason, which in principle is just to attempt to keep societies running as smoothly as possible. I don't think there is a religion in existence which has a singular God whose purpose is just to maintain human society in an orderly fashion and minimize suffering therein. In polytheism there are divine aspects which have this task (which are naturally limited in their power), but nothing singular. Partly because it would be absurd and obviously contradict reality, and partly because it is question-begging as to what the point even is of living a long, secure life if it is not worth anything, and if we are not given challenges so as to prove ourselves and elevate ourselves to a higher degree of self-worth and nobility, with the goal (even if only in principle) of becoming the equal of God, so as to attain mutual knowledge, respect and even friendship as beings of the same caliber. It would be more or less equivalent to a beginning-stage of general nihilism if God were an omnipotent police officer.
> But how is he any more free if he knows he will not be send immediately to prison, but after 70 years he will be sent to prison for all eternity?
I'm not an eternalist in this sense to begin with, I don't see a reason to assume eternal punishment in another realm. Eternal punishment, from my perspective of the Christian religion, refers both to the present and the indefinite ("eternal") future if we cannot raise ourselves out of our own stupidity, lack of self-control and, for lack of a better word, sin. This is an extremely heterodox view of Christianity so I obviously cannot cite any Biblical passages to support it. The point is we will keep reaping the fruits of our actions perpetually until we understand them and can thereby act properly. This is the "gnashing of teeth" referred to, which happens right now and will probably continue to occur into the future.

Punishment in general, however, even if not necessarily eternal, needs to remain somewhat uncertain for the reasons I've already mentioned. The exact timeframe does not matter much, so long as plausible deniability is maintained (although, I think, in the backs of most people's minds the principle of sufficient reason sits there reminding them, and making them doubt their own supposed "knowledge" of the arbitrary nature of reality). And it is not so much a punishment of retribution (although it could be cast in this way) as it is a corrective re-action. One's original action comes back to oneself, thereby providing one with knowledge of the consequences of actions, both for the self and others. Only it is not good to see this correction as some sort of personal, loving hand which has personality. Justice, fundamentally, is a balancing act, almost mathematical and mechanical.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 15 03:23:55 2021 No.19053220 >>19046249 I think it's bad... so god also thinks the same.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 15 03:34:04 2021 No.19053264 >>19045171 I like Liebniz theory about it. Especially considering advances in quantum physic are in his favor.

Anonymous Wed Sep 15 03:44:25 2021 No.19053305
File: 42 KB, 389x356, 1381618376797.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>19045899
>>19045899
but about the free will of the children who did not want to be bayoneted?

why doesn't god honor their will? why does he privilege the will of sadistic psychopaths who murder kids?

Anonymous Wed Sep 15 03:50:06 2021 No.19053322

>>19053173
>Not the same as the right choice for God. We've already established this much. Policemen exist for a different reason, which in principle is just to attempt to keep societies running as smoothly as possible.
The point of the policeman example was to show that we don't normally value individual freedom to the extent that we are prepared to tolerate whatever choice somebody may make. We don't think that you have the right to kill innocent people, and we think murder should be prevented if possible. And that leads to the question of why doesn't God prevent wanton murder.
>Punishment in general, however, even if not necessarily eternal, needs to remain somewhat uncertain for the reasons I've already mentioned.
The example you give of the criminal under constant surveillance knew *for certain* that he will go to prison for stealing. Same with my example, except his sentence starts after the passage of 70 years. What I don't understand is why you think the person is free in the first case but not in the later.

Anonymous Wed Sep 15 04:08:50 2021 No.19053383

>>19053305
>but about the free will of the children who did not want to be bayoneted?
you know that Ivan was a couple of weeks away from brain fever when he said that right?
a christian is not afraid of death, because eternal life in beatitude awaits them. In Faust, the souls of children who died before they even had a proper grasp of morality are instructed to talk to those who sinned and repented (like Faust) in order to gain an understanding of what it means to come closer to God before ascending. It's a pretty satisfying way of seeing it

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 15 04:18:11 2021 No.19053412 >>19045129 Free will.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 15 04:39:28 2021 No.19053496 >>19045171 Evil is ignorance. You bring about your own suffering then cry to God when you suffer the consequences. Separate yourself from knowledge/good/God, see what happens. We have free will and you chose evil.

Anonymous Wed Sep 15 04:42:11 2021 No.19053504

>>19053322
> we don't normally value individual freedom
The point was that what "we value" as societal goods (the police officer ideal of God) are not valued in the same way from the perspective of omnipotency, which is to say, they are only valued as subordinate, but not absolute, values. The exact reason human society strives to control the actions of others is exactly because it is not omnipotent, and thus the exact reason God does not control every single one of our actions (nor tries to) is because he is omnipotent. The truly powerful do not need nor desire to control others. Because our societies are not omnipotent, we have to do the best we can to guide people in the right direction and prevent them from taking actions which they cannot, in the moment, see are wrong and which might erase the very same society (God himself is never in danger of being erased). Yet this will always happen due to the necessary reality of freedom of will, which is more fundamentally necessary than the absolute existence of Good, because it precedes the dichotomy between good and bad.
> we are prepared to tolerate whatever choice somebody may make
I have to stress this is only relevant with respect to what you, in particular, or society, will tolerate, not the absoluteness of freedom or good and bad. That's not to diminish your perspective at all, you're perfectly justified in demanding the right to your own person, and in this sense you are justified in preventing someone from doing harm to you or others who are innocent. But from a higher perspective, the same freedom which allows them to (potentially or actually) do harm to you is the same freedom which allows you to rise above all of it, to know Good and to choose Good (which, as seems to be confused a lot, is not a simple matter of "yes" or "no." Does one "choose" to exercise, yes, but that choice is not as easy as ticking a box).
>What I don't understand is why you think the person is free in the first case but not in the later.
If you're free to take an action which immediately cancels itself out, then you are not free to take that action because it is self-cancelled and can never exist as a determination (determination being the result of all free choice). If you are to take an action which cancels itself after x years, then you are free to take that action because it does not cancel itself immediately. It's the same reason why buying something from a shop is not considered a debt from one party to the other. The debt (analogous to freedom of choice and consequence) only exists when payment on one side is deferred to the future. If you want to know someone's true frugality, give them either infinite money or infinite credit (they are effectively the same thing), and watch how or if they use it. It's a similar situation as the thief example, except that it is predicated more upon stupidity and lack of forethought than actual malice.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 15 05:02:23 2021 No.19053552 >>19053496 >we have free will kek

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 15 07:27:12 2021 No.19053961 >>19045129 The problem of evil has been dealt with by many. William Lane Craig isna good place to start looking. Basically, God has morally sufficient reasons for permitting evil in the world. Simple as

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 15 08:46:21 2021 No.19054260 >>19052712 Chardin is correct but he doesn't know why.

Anonymous Wed Sep 15 09:54:59 2021 No.19054477

>>19045129
Imagine you see a fly stuck in a spiderweb.
You, being a merciful man-God, you pluck the fly out of its death trap and set it free.
You acted as a good man-God, but the consequences of your actions mean that you have starved the spider.

The best thing God can do for us is to allow us the freedom to fail, the freedom to suffer, and the freedom to die.
Because it is here, in this state of risk, that man is free to feel the truest sense of being.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 15 09:59:15 2021 No.19054494 >>19045129 2 is wrong

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 15 09:59:24 2021 No.19054495 >>19045171 Book of job

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 15 10:00:27 2021 No.19054500 >>19045881 This, they always go off on tangents

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 15 10:08:58 2021 No.19054531 >>19054477 That analogy suggests a god of limited power. A truly omnipotent creator could make the spider survive off of photosynthesis so it would not need to eat other creatures.

Anonymous Wed Sep 15 10:15:11 2021 No.19054556

>>19054531
Then it would not be a spider, it would be a tree.

Have you ever played a video game against someone that is so good that you never get to win? It becomes boring and you stop playing because there is no point in it.
But a game against an opponent where you win or lose 60%/40% of the time? Now there is an interesting match that I can play over and over.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 15 10:18:55 2021 No.19054571 >>19054531 Then you would say “why doesn’t god make it invisible so other creatures can’t eat it or “why didn’t he give it wings”

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 15 10:28:06 2021 No.19054600 >>19054556 God must be pretty terrible at balancing then, with totally arbitrary difficulty levels depending on where and what you're born as. A baby killed in some witch doctor ritual never gets to win.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 15 10:38:21 2021 No.19054645 >>19054600 The baby killed by a witch doctor wins because it avoids the possibility of ending up as dense as you play to be.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 15 10:45:46 2021 No.19054692 >>19054600 The baby shouldn’t have put itself in that position.

Anonymous Wed Sep 15 10:46:18 2021 No.19054695
File: 66 KB, 474x474, Augustine .jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>19045129
Augustine. The Ex Malo Bounum (good out of evil) argument .

>If God is, why is there evil? But if God is not, why is there good?

>Since God is the highest good, he would not allow any evil to exist in his works unless his omnipotence and goodness were such as to bring good even out of evil.

Anonymous Wed Sep 15 10:53:16 2021 No.19054728

>>19054695
Also Augustine: evil is merely the corruption of the good in nature, it nothing but the privation of the good:

“All of nature, therefore, is good, since the Creator of all nature is supremely good. But nature is not supremely and immutably good as is the Creator of it. Thus the good in created things can be diminished and augmented. For good to be diminished is evil; still, however much it is diminished, something must remain of its original nature as long as it exists at all. For no matter what kind or however insignificant a thing may be, the good which is its 'nature' cannot be destroyed without the thing itself being destroyed. There is good reason, therefore, to praise an uncorrupted thing, and if it were indeed an incorruptible thing which could not be destroyed, it would doubtless be all the more worthy of praise. When, however, a thing is corrupted, its corruption is an evil because it is, by just so much, a privation of the good. Where there is no privation of the good, there is no evil. Where there is evil, there is a corresponding diminution of the good. As long, then, as a thing is being corrupted, there is good in it of which it is being deprived; and in this process, if something of its being remains that cannot be further corrupted, this will then be an incorruptible entity [natura incorruptibilis], and to this great good it will have come through the process of corruption. But even if the corruption is not arrested, it still does not cease having some good of which it cannot be further deprived. If, however, the corruption comes to be total and entire, there is no good left either, because it is no longer an entity at all. Wherefore corruption cannot consume the good without also consuming the thing itself. Every actual entity [natura] is therefore good; a greater good if it cannot be corrupted, a lesser good if it can be. Yet only the foolish and unknowing can deny that it is still good even when corrupted. Whenever a thing is consumed by corruption, not even the corruption remains, for it is nothing in itself, having no subsistent being in which to exist.”

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 15 10:57:21 2021 No.19054746 >>19054600 Maybe that baby would have grown up to be a serial killer, a rapist, or even a democrat

Anonymous Wed Sep 15 13:26:45 2021 No.19055588 [DELETED]

>>19045171
God gave us free will so that we can do whatever we want. If some people fell for Satan's tricks and God isn't willing to personally smite those people it's because He lets us deal with those afromentioned people by ourselves, effectively having us fight against both Satan himself and his earthly lackeys. At least that is my interpretation.He lets this happen so that we can grow stronger while Satan's pawns dive head dirst into their own self destruction.
>but why give people the option to side with evil if the punisments are so harsh in the first place
A man can always change his ways. He can either decide to try to live a virtuos life or he can continue on the straight path to damnation. It all depends on him.
>but Africa and starving children and cancer
The situation in Africa is partly the outcome of the actions of some evil people but Africans themselves are to blame for their lack of action the most. They could always at least try to rise up but they just don't. As for cancer, disseases are a part of life and nature. I don't have any justification for them in this context other than that. They just are.
Those are some supperficial explenations but I can't be bothered to write any more than I did. The point is that all fedora arguments against religion can easly be deboonked.

Anonymous Wed Sep 15 13:59:54 2021 No.19055783

>>19045982
>we can't use God to create moral systems
We just did. For thousands of years and it worked pretty good. Wherever Christianity spread it had raised healthy societies of unprecedented cohesion wich advanced far quicker than their Arabic/African/Asian counterparts. I'm not a very religios person but you have to be a retard to not see the possitive impact Christianity had in Europe and America. If anything it gave Europeans the best concievable moral code for that time.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 15 15:28:29 2021 No.19056270 >>19045129 Man is a fool and seeks to confirm his feelings by projecting his foolishness onto the universe. Some advanced fools help build towers for the other fools to stand atop on by setting out to prove what they already want to believe is true.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 15 15:40:39 2021 No.19056332 >>19045193 But why do you need this strength? To overcome the hardship that God creates for you?

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 15 17:08:46 2021 No.19056853 >>19045171 The problem of evil, is actually a problem for atheists. The argument requires an objective standard for good and bad, however such a standard can only exist if god exists. So that bad things happens actually proves that god exists.

Anonymous Wed Sep 15 17:28:26 2021 No.19056973

>>19055783
Christianity's moral code and the application thereof is continuously changing; yes, we did precisely that- we used God to create our moral system. We used Him, He did not use us.

>>19056853
They are arguing within the confines of the Christian system, in which good and evil exist. Within their system it is not a problem because there is no good or evil, they just avoid suffering because that is their unavoidable intrinsic nature, I believe they would say.

>>19053383
>a christian is not afraid of death, because eternal life in beatitude awaits them
That is not true; we do not know where we go, it is up to God and to declare yourself "worthy of Heaven" or "saved" is presumptuous and prideful. Don't use Faust as possible theology

>>19052926
>pets
Poisoning the well, eh? And what would be evil about God making human pets, anyways? You cannot judge His actions, you rely on Him for your ideas of good and evil.

>>19052905
>God willing existence into reality =/= God willing every single event thereafter into reality.
Why is this not so? If He did not will for a thing to happen, He would prevent it; the other issue is that He exists outside of time, while reality exists within time. Perhaps He may not "desire" for the sinner to go to Hell, but He still wills for reality to be as it is, having created it outside of time.

Of course He could omnipotent but choose not to intervene; we then do not even know what "omnibenevolent" or "good" means. We can provide any humanistic, common-sense explanation, but who is to say that it is correct? It is not necessary for God to send anyone to Heaven in order for Him to be good, nor is it necessary for Him to stop Satan in order for Him to be omnipotent. The problem is the seeming arbitrariness of "Good" as compared to our folk understanding of it.

>>19052765
>freedom is the fundamental prerequisite for good
So what? Must God make a world that is good after your idea of good?

>immediately prevent all crimes (meaning one cannot make a bad choice at all, meaning one is not free)
What if God made it so that human nature was powerful enough to resist all evils and do only good? I also don't see why good cannot exist without freedom; perhaps you mean you cannot choose good without freedom, because you will already be united with the Good and will either follow its will due to attraction (almost like food attracts your will to eat it) or due to God forcing it directly.

>>19052611
>The principle of sufficient reason, which underpins everything, is sufficient proof of the connection.
Even with that, why is it necessary that the natural evils around us are a punishment for our evils? There are countless other possible causes, imaginable and unimaginable, that could be invoked.

>In reality, at a level beyond exterior analysis, nothing is connected randomly.
Which is why (as it seems to me now) arbitrarily invoking one hypothesis above others is a problem you'll have to hash out.

Anonymous Wed Sep 15 17:34:49 2021 No.19057004

>>19056973
>arguing within the confines of the Christian system, in which good and evil exist. Within their system it is not a problem because there is no good or evil, they just avoid suffering because that is their unavoidable intrinsic nature, I believe they would say.
But atheists use a fundamentaly non christian ethics that's not based on biblical teachings to argue that evil is incompatible with god.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 15 21:03:37 2021 No.19057918 >>19046054 sometimes bad things happen that aren't caused by people

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/lit/ - Literature