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/lit/ - Literature

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1902585 No.1902585 [Reply] [Original]

How does /lit/ feel about existential nihilism?

How would you react to a nihilist proclaiming to you about his worldview? How do you think a clichey nihilist looks and talks like? I'm asking because I'm supposed to portray an nihilist in a play.

>> No.1902610
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1902610

Nihilist: We believe in nothing, Lebowski. Nothing. And tomorrow we come back and we cut off your chonson.
The Dude: Excuse me?
Nihilist: I said
[shouting]
Nihilist: We'll cut off your johnson!
Nihilist #2: Just think about that, Lebowski.
Nihilist: Yeah, your wiggly penis, Lebowski.
Nihilist #3: Yeah and maybe we stomp on it and squoosh it, Lebowski.

>> No.1902612
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1902612

The Dude: [looks at man lazing in the pool] Are you sure he won't mind?
Bunny Lebowski: Uli doesn't care about anything. He's a Nihilist.
The Dude: Ah, that must be exhausting.

>> No.1902617
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1902617

Donny: Are these the Nazis, Walter?
Walter Sobchak: No, Donny, these men are nihilists, there's nothing to be afraid of.
Nihilist: Ve don't care. Ve still vant ze money, Lebowski, or ve fuck you up.
Walter Sobchak: Fuck you. Fuck the three of you.
The Dude: Hey, cool it Walter.
Walter Sobchak: No, without a hostage, there is no ransom. That's what ransom is. Those are the fucking rules.
Nihilist #2: His girlfriend gave up her toe!
Nihilist #3: She though we'd be getting million dollars!
Nihilist #2: Iss not fair!
Walter Sobchak: Fair! WHO'S THE FUCKING NIHILIST HERE! WHAT ARE YOU, A BUNCH OF FUCKING CRYBABIES?
The Dude: Hey, cool it Walter. Look, pal, there never was any money. The big Lebowski gave me an empty briefcase, so take it up with him, man.
Walter Sobchak: And, I would like my undies back.
[Stunned, the Germans confer amongst themselves again]
Donny: Are they gonna hurt us, Walter?
Walter Sobchak: No, Donny. These men are cowards.
Nihilist: Okay. So we take ze money you haf on you, und ve calls it eefen.
Walter Sobchak: Fuck you.

>> No.1902623
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1902623

Walter Sobchak: Nihilists! Fuck me. I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.

>> No.1902626
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1902626

Nihilist #3: I fuck you in the ass, I fuck you in the ass, I fuck you, I fuck you, I fuck you, I fuck...


[I think you get the point, OP]

>> No.1902660

>>1902626
Yes.

>> No.1902707

>>1902585
Whilst I am an existantial nihilist, I couldn't really help you there. There are all different types of people, just like with any other worldview. I only rarely mention my view on things, usually only if asked. I wear normal, everyday clothes and talk like a regular person. The only thing I can tell you that changed when I came to terms with nihilism is that I lost all my inhibitions and feel free-er than I ever did before. I went skydiving when before, I was terrified of heights. I went to clubs and got dates when before, I was terrified of social interaction. When you realise that nothing you do will ever matter, for better or worse, you just stop caring.

>> No.1902730

>>1902707
Existential. Tired.

>> No.1902738

An existentialist circa 1940s would basically look and act like an apathetic/depressed Beatnik.

>> No.1902742

be lazy

live with your parents

listen to psychedelic music

smoke marijuana

reject value systems

be convinced you're a victim of everything

etc.

>> No.1902756

it's an bullshit worldview. For instance, you can use the so-called arguments for existential nihilism to prove that everything has intrinsic meaning, since such a statement would also get rid of the division between meaning and meaninglessness, which is basically what nihilism attempts to do.

besides that, it is completely idealistic and completely unprovable

tl;dr: its babbys first philosophy

>> No.1902773

>>1902742
You have no idea what existentialism is, do you. But then, neither do most people who claim to think it's true.

>>1902756
This is closer to a real criticism of it.

>> No.1902790

a stepping stone on the path to "overcoming" one's intellectual degeneracy

>> No.1902792

>>1902756
>completely unprovable
>implying worldviews tend to be "provable"

>since such a statement would also get rid of the division between meaning and meaninglessness, which is basically what nihilism attempts to do.

It amounts to the same thing.

>> No.1902812

>>1902756
I agree that existential nihilism is a bullshit stance. In my opinion you really have to choose existentialism or nihilism. If you're an existential nihilist you aren't really a nihilist anymore are you? I mean, the point of nihilism is a point of MEANINGLESSNESS. I reject that you can believe everything is meaningless EXCEPT you're own existentialist philosophy, which is so precious and important because its YOURS.

tl;dr existential nihilists don't get the point.

>> No.1902829

>>1902812
And yet another person who doesn't know what existentialism is... FFS if you're going to argue against something you might start with the introduction to the subject, Existentialism is a Humanism. I'll give you a hint, the part you're talking about, Sartre had already covered, just look for the word "quietism" about page 2 or so.

>> No.1902830

>>1902792

>implying worldviews tend to be "provable"

well, then, let me put it this way: it's a doctrine that has yet to produce anything of value. Nihilists tend to ignore this by saying that nothing of value can be produced, which, to me, seems like a cheap cop-out, especially when you consider there are a lot of worldviews and doctrines which have showed to greatly enhance the happiness of human life.

To me, nihilism basically boils down to giving up entirely on reason and humanity, because both of these concepts contain some minor flaws.

>> No.1902850

>>1902829
lol do you know what existentialism is?
you sure like to criticize posts without actually delineating your perspective.

tl;dr
you suck.

>> No.1902859

>>1902707
Scratch that, I meant nihilist, not existential nihilist. I've been drinking too much tonight, methinks.

>> No.1902864

>>1902830
>it's a doctrine that has yet to produce anything of value.

Has no bearing on it's quality, unless you're a consequentialistfag. Which is really being a faggot.

>nihilism basically boils down to giving up entirely on reason and humanity

Yes, that's precisely what it is. It's a philosophical dead end, the philosophy of the defeatist and the quitters. It's no reason to attack it though.

>> No.1902881

>>1902850
I'm not an existentialist, but you're trying to argue something that is covered on page 2 of the essay that is the seminal work of the subject of this thread, existential nihilism. It's at most 10 pages, and you haven't read it; if you had, you'd know that nihilism does not exclude action and it doesn't preclude a person's search for meaning. Existence precedes essence, however a person through their condemnation of freedom experiences a world in which they are forced to choose, and in so doing, exemplify a choice of their meaning, even though no such true meaning exists. Quietism is of no significance, it is its own choice as well, and produces the worst possible results of meaninglessness. You are condemned to be free; every action which you take is a choice of meaning within meaninglessness which not only results in but is also affected by all other choices.

tl;dr: nihilism means you're fucked, but in almost all cases you're not going to just accept it anyhow, and if you do, you're even more fucked because other people exist without essence too.

>> No.1902890

>2011
>not being a nihilist

I serious hope you guys don't do this.

>> No.1902895

A real nihilist would just stop and do absolutely nothing. He would die of starvation a few days later unless mother is there to feed him. A real nihilist is a vegetable.

Don't confuse nihilism with hedonism. Doing anything means at least one thing matter.

>> No.1902897

>>1902895
You're an idiot, who gave you permission to comment?

>> No.1902898
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1902898

>>1902897
moot

>> No.1902899

Nicked from elsewhere on the internet:
"Nihilism is the absence of basis for values and meaning: life is empty and meaningless, and there's nothing you can do about it. "Might as well party and look after #1" is the typical solution.

Existentialism is 'there's no objective basis for meaning, each person carves out meaning by taking responsibility for their own life and the meaning thereof'."

>> No.1902901

>>1902864

>Has no bearing on it's quality

very well, we'll skip utility. What are any of its statements based on? What are the logic rules on which the doctrine is based?

>It's no reason to attack it though.

When nihilists start about ethics, it becomes an excellent reason to attack it

>> No.1902905

>>1902901

*logical rules

>> No.1902907

>>1902901
Why are you asking me? I'm not a nihilist, I was just pointing out weaknesses in your argument.

>> No.1902908

>>1902899
"Nihilism is the absence of basis for values and meaning: life is empty and meaningless, and there's nothing you can do about it."

I find this agreeable. I don't know what "life is empty" is suppose to mean though.

>> No.1902912

>>1902908
My guess is it means life is hollow and pointless, or something like that.

>> No.1902913

so existentialism is basically the idea that it's the individual's responsibility to find meaning in their life and nihilism makes the argument that life has no meaning

aren't these like
directly contradictory

enlighten me, /lit/, i'm missing something

>> No.1902938

An obligatory step in the life of a teenager.
If you're over 18 and claim to be a nihilist, please just kill yourself already. I'm serious.

>> No.1902948

>>1902913

I guess you can apply the concept of nihilism to the branches of philosophy, for instance, you have ethical nihilism, metaphysical nihilism, etc.

existential nihilism would be the application of nihilism on existence, and would therefore be different from existentialism, which is an entirely different philosophy altogether, even though the two bear some resemblence

>> No.1902949

I liked Bazarov but even he couldn't keep that nihilist shit straight. It's an idea to be absorbed, not committed to.

>> No.1902957

>>1902938
Okay, so whats the meaning of life?

>> No.1902961

>>1902948
am i getting existentialism right here?

i feel like i'm missing something

>> No.1902959

>>1902938
>2011
>teenagers actually knowing anything about philosophy
No

>> No.1902968

>>1902961
From Wikipedia:
"Existential nihilism is the belief that life has no intrinsic meaning or value. With respect to the universe, existential nihilism posits that a single human or even the entire human species is insignificant, without purpose and unlikely to change in the totality of existence. The meaninglessness of life is largely explored in the philosophical school of existentialism."

>> No.1902975

>>1902968
i meant
>so existentialism is basically the idea that it's the individual's responsibility to find meaning in their life

this is correct?

teach me, /lit/.

>> No.1902980

>>1902975
Existential philosophers often focused more on what they believed was subjective, such as beliefs and religion, or human states, feelings, and emotions, such as freedom, pain, guilt, and regret, as opposed to analyzing objective knowledge, language, or science.

>> No.1902981

>>1902961

existential nihilism = nihilism of existence = existence has no intrinsic meaning

existentialism = meaning is something that an individual creates by himself

>> No.1902987

Nihilism only makes sense when applied to commonly held lines of thought.

ITT: no one understands a legitimate nihilist position

>> No.1902990

>>1902981
this

also, by those terms, if existence has no intrinsic meaning then an individual's existence is created by himself

>> No.1902995

>>1902987

so it's basically a cult?

>> No.1902998

>>1902990
>>1902981
>>1902980

okay i think i got it

so are all you guys like super into camus

>> No.1903002

All nihilists are different. If the only descriptor you have for your character is that he's a nihilist OP, it's a pretty shitty play.

Tell us more about the character.

>> No.1903007

>>1902998

him and sartre would be two of the best representatives of modern existentialism

>> No.1903012

>>1903002
The play is based on a book: Nothing by Janne Teller. It's about a 13-year old boy who realizes that life has no meaning and climbs into a plum tree and starts spreading his worldview in sermon-like speeches. The classmates of the boy start to collect stuff that is meaningful to them in order to prove the meaningfulness of life to him. This progresses into sheer chaos as dead, loved people get dragged out of their caves and a girl gets raped, all in order to prove that some things can be meaningful. It's all very Lord of the Flies -esque.

I dig the story but my director is a bit open-ended on how I should be portrauing the character. Angry? Pissed off? Extremely douchey?

>> No.1903017

>>1903012
Ooh, that sounds interesting, I'll have to give it a read sometime.

I don't know much about acting and theatre, but I'd portray him as a charismatic Jesus figure, or at least he's convinced he is. Sort of like Breen from Half-Life 2.

>> No.1903024

>>1903012
did you read the book? i'd suggest doing that

>> No.1903025

>>1903012

Y'see, a real nihilist would realise that there's no point in spreading his world-view to everyone since nothing matters. Sounds like he's more of a douchey preacher more concerned with his own intelligence and being correct than he is of the actual beliefs that he holds.

Give me a second and I'm sure I'll be able to find you a good example. The obvious one in film would be Tyler Durden but I doubt you have the charisma and I doubt a 13 year old is that douchey. I'll try and find a character in a novel or play for you.

>> No.1903036

>>1902995

No they would be free thinkers. I would use Nietzsche as the model though he is usually labeled an existentialist. He negated the thought of all resolute thinkers before him, introducing a problem of nihilism. Then he provided a solution to the problem, but his solution wasn't put forward as true. It was instead put forth as something which he preferred due to his aesthetic sensibility. He wanted people to disbelieve him.

>> No.1903039

>>1903017
Do that! It's a young adult novel I guess, it's really good nonetheless.

>>1903024
I've read it a couple of years ago. As far as I recall, the boy or the way he speaks is never actually described too much. It's all about the words. The other kids do get really nervous and pissed off about him, though.

>>1903025
I've realized that. He is very concerned on being always right and dismissing the attempts of his classmates. I have to look into that Tyler guy, though.

>> No.1903042

>>1903025

Then again the fact that the other kids try to convince him otherwise make him sound less douchey and more despondent with the world so I'd be surprised if he has a preacher manner to him. Of course without reading the text I don't know.

>> No.1903053

>>1903042
He's a boy who "gets" the world. He climbs into a tree and tries to convince others that he is right, he wants people to agree with him. The kids try to prove him wrong but he doesn't really give a fuck "as their efforts are meaningless anyway because nothing really matters". He refuses to change his worldview. He feels like a creationist preacher to me.

>> No.1903063

>>1903039

Try looking into Film Noir type P.I's. A lot of them sit on the fence between nihilism and hedonism while having an insatiable drive for the truth. Once again though, since this is a 13 year old adjustments would need to be made. What's the big denouement moment in the play?

>> No.1903070

>>1903053
>someone has conviction in their beliefs and people try to change it in an incorrect manner
>derp creationist

>> No.1903078

>>1903063
The sacrifices of the children get bigger and bigger until one kid's finger is chopped off. Soon after that the kids go get the boy, named Pierre Anthon from his tree to see how much meaning they have collected into their pile of rotting flesh and various things, including a bicycle, books, crutches and a crucifix from a local church. Pierre Anthon seems unfathomed because the kids' endeavors serve no meaning to him. The kids get enraged and they kill Pierre Anthon. Their pile of meaning gets lit on fire and it burns with Pierre Anthon in it.

>> No.1903084

>>1903078
Cheerful.

>> No.1903086

>>1903078

What's his manner before being killed? That's usually a good place to base how to play a character on

>> No.1903087

>>1903070

>some random asshole starts yelling his unprovable worldview to you, without your permission
>refuses to accept any counterarguments
>not even slightly resembling a creationist

>> No.1903092

>>1903087

Sounds more like an Athiest to me.

>> No.1903123

>>1903086
When he is shown the pile of meaning, he starts to laugh and asks the other kids if they have really gathered all of the things in it just for him.

>"This is all your fault Pierre Anthon! because of you we are now here!"
>"Because of me? Your meaning depends on me? So if I refuse to give meaning to your pile, you don't mean anything at all, either? I have a divine task."
>"That pile doesn't really mean anything! Anything at all!"

Basically the kids are mad because they have endured great sacrifices for common good, Pierre Anthon bitches it up and the kids get all convinced they did all of their work for nothing. They start fighting each other until they direct their anger at Pierre Anthon, killoing him. At least in our script.

Thanks for beaing such enormous help, by the way.

>> No.1903145
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1903145

Nihilism sucks

>> No.1903183

>>1903123

So basically you want to be smug, self-righteous, you don't want to be too reactionary to anything that other characters say, have a style of speech that really implies you're saying what you're saying because you like the sound of your own voice rather than because you want other people to hear, at the same time however you're speaking because it means you don't have to listen to what other people say, you've come to your conclusions and nothing can sway you. A good example in the real world might be one of those hipster athiests arguing with religious just because he knows* that he's right and there's no way he can lose the argument, he just wants people to affirm his beliefs and has no interest in actual productive debate.


*in his mind

>> No.1903193
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1903193

>>1903183
I love you a million times. Thank you so much, that's a great analysis!

>> No.1903202

>I only rarely mention my view on things, usually only if asked.
>I ... talk like a regular person.

lol, if only.

>> No.1903209

>>1903193

The only example I can think of that you may recall would be if you've ever watched the tv show House. I haven't seen it in a while, but now and then Hugh Laurie's character would get all serious with people/patients and rip them to shreds for the purpose of finding the truth or explaining why he was right with complete disregard for their emotions. That might be a good starting point, Maybe? Sounds like the mood/tone of the play's very different from an episode of House though, you'd have to adjust accordingly.

That's the closest thing I can think of.

>> No.1903240

>>1903209
House makes sense as a role model. Also this enormous bitch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=metZ3ljbG04

>> No.1903284

>>1903240

Wow, she's on a level of cuntiness that surpasses even Ann Coulter...........I want to stick my face in her ass and brreeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaathheee!