/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.18935670]

Where do I start to read about communism?

[Anonymous No.18935675]

>>18935670
probably the communist manifesto.

[Anonymous No.18935681]

Edmund Wilson’s To the Finland Station, The Communist Manifesto, Critique of the Gotha Programme, Socialism: Utopian and Scientific, State and Revolution, and Lars Lih’s Lenin (Critical Lives)

[Anonymous No.18935695]

>>18935670
In your gender studies class.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18935697]

>>18935670
Bakunin
Lenin went with capitalism and has nothing of value to say about communism

[Anonymous No.18935704]

[Anonymous No.18935706]

>>18935670
Quod Apostolici Muneris

[Anonymous No.18935736]

>>18935697
Foolish anti-semite, groomed a 17-year-old and never accomplished anything of value. Into the bin with him.

[Anonymous No.18935738]

>>18935670
You don't? As Nietzsche correctly pointed out, socialism is idealistic non-sense.
>"On the other hand, the piping of the
Socialistic rat-catchers who wish to inspire you with foolish hopes is continually sounding in your ears: they tell you to be ready and nothing further, ready from this day to the next, so that you wait and wait for something to come from outside, though living in all other respects as you lived before—until this waiting is at length changed into hunger and thirst and fever and madness,and the clay of the bestia triumphans at last dawns in all its glory."
>"It is a disgrace for all socialist systematizers that they suppose there could be circumstances-social combinations-in which vice, disease, prostitution, distress would no longer grow.- But that means condemning life.- A society is not free to remain young. And even at the height of its strength it has to form refuse and waste materials. The more energetically and boldly it advances, the richer it will be in failures and deformities, the closer to decline.- Age is not abolished by means of institutions. Neither is disease. Nor vice."
How stupid can one be to believe that the triumph of the state would lead to the end of history and the social problems we face? Are not the failures of it in China and Russia enough for you to discard that stupidity forever? Not even the Anarchist profligate escapes this criticism - changing your flavor of idealism doesn't change the fact you're abandoning the corporal world for a spiritual one that will never cease to exist.

[Anonymous No.18935742]

>>18935736
nah hes bretty good

[Anonymous No.18935753]

>>18935736
Marx hated niggers, and literally spent all his money betting in the stock market. Socialists are just the biggest frauds. Lenin lived in a mansion after the revolution while peasants starved. So did Mao and so did Castro.

[Anonymous No.18935754]

>>18935738
pseudposting

[Anonymous No.18935759]

>>18935742
This Bakunin, how many divisions has he?

[Anonymous No.18935761]

>>18935754
Whatever you said, you communist negoid. You will never be a woman. Go back to leftypol.

[Anonymous No.18935762]

>>18935738
I like this quote from Nietzsche:

>With regard to the state, Machiavelli says that, “the form of government is of very small importance, although half-educated people think otherwise. The great goal of statecraft should be duration, which outweighs all else, inasmuch as it is more valuable than liberty." It is only with securely founded and guaranteed duration that continual development and ennobling inoculation are at all possible. As a rule, however, authority, the dangerous companion of all duration, will rise in opposition to this.

From "Human, All too Human." It reminds me of something else:

>Fallaci: “It doesn’t matter if the cat is black or gray, as long as it eats the mice,” you once said. Would you apply the same pragmatism, even the same tolerance, to political life? I ask you, thinking of an answer you gave during your visit to America: “In China we must eliminate dictatorship and broaden democracy.” What democracy were you referring to? The kind based upon free elections and a multi-party system?

>Deng: I never said anything like that! That’s a misunderstanding. But I can tell you that, after having removed the Gang of Four, we strongly emphasized the necessity of promoting socialist democracy. Without losing, you understand, the dictatorship of the proletariat. Democracy and dictatorship of the proletariat are two parts of the same antithesis, and proletarian democracy is far superior to its capitalist counterpart. We are emphasizing the Four Principles that we must adhere to: the principle of socialism, the principle of dictatorship of the proletariat, the principle of Marxism and Leninism elaborated in Mao Zedong Thought, and the principle of leaders supported by the Communist Party of China. So, you see, that even the principle of dictatorship of the proletariat has remained untouched and untouchable.

Or as Stewie said (but for socialism):

https://youtu.be/P7mnSvk1b68

[Anonymous No.18935763]

>>18935670
Here:
https://big-lies.org/marxism/jews-understanding-marxism.html

[Anonymous No.18935786]

Also an interesting Trot work

https://www.marxists.org/archive/draper/1966/twosouls/

[Anonymous No.18935790]

>>18935762
>"The great goal of statecraft should be duration, which outweighs all else, "
He already knew that,
>"Just see these superfluous ones! They steal the works of the inventors and the treasures of the wise. Culture, they call their theft—and everything becometh sickness and trouble unto them!"

>"Just see these superfluous ones! Sick are they always; they vomit their bile and call it a newspaper. They devour one another, and cannot even digest themselves."

>"Just see these superfluous ones! Wealth they acquire and become poorer thereby. Power they seek for, and above all, the lever of power, much money—these impotent ones!"

>"See them clamber, these nimble apes! They clamber over one another, and thus scuffle into the mud and the abyss."

>"Towards the throne they all strive: it is their madness—as if happiness sat on the throne! Ofttimes sitteth filth on the throne.- and ofttimes also the throne on filth."

>"Madmen they all seem to me, and clambering apes, and too eager. Badly smelleth their idol to me, the cold monster: badly they all smell to me, these idolaters."

>"My brethren, will ye suffocate in the fumes of their maws and appetites! Better break the windows and jump into the open air!"

>"Do go out of the way of the bad odour! Withdraw from the idolatry of the superfluous!"

>"Do go out of the way of the bad odour! Withdraw from the steam of these human sacrifices!"

>"Open still remaineth the earth for great souls. Empty are still many sites for lone ones and twain ones, around which floateth the odour of tranquil seas."

>"Open still remaineth a free life for great souls. Verily, he who possesseth little is so much the less possessed: blessed be moderate poverty!"

>"There, where the state ceaseth—there only commenceth the man who is not superfluous: there commenceth the song of the necessary ones, the single and irreplaceable melody."

>"There, where the state ceaseth—pray look thither, my brethren! Do ye not see it, the rainbow and the bridges of the Superman?—Thus spake Zarathustra."
Commies, like all ides of the old, are just power hungry niggers. Deng himself said he doesn't even know "socialism" means anymore. Its all a fraud. Always has been.

[Anonymous No.18935807]

>>18935670
Start here

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18935830]

>State-socialists flood in to divert the topic away from communism
Oh Americans

[Anonymous No.18935834]

>>18935807
>female authors
>who receive funding from the CIA
You get all your news from CNN and Vox, too?

[Anonymous No.18935837]

>>18935830
You can't eliminate the capitalist state without using an equal and opposite power formation. Please comprehend this simple fact.

[Anonymous No.18935842]

>>18935697
Lenin didn't "go with capitalism" you complete fucking mongoloid, are you even capable of any sort of basic critical thought or introspection? Lenin simply learned very fast that orchestrating a revolution and winning a civil war, then trying to keep up with the demands of the millions of mouths you just "liberated" and took responsibility for, trying to enforce the sovereignty of this new community on the geopolitical world stage, trying to uphold law, trying generally keep society functioning, trying to keep down counter revolutionaries etc is an EXTREMELY complicated feat in its own right, then you throw in the fact that the goal was to do this all while completely restructuring society from the ground up and create a community that is suppose to just autonomously accomplish all of these things without any sort of administrative oversight, and suddenly the whole endevour becomes an astronomically vast undertaking, so vast that its virtually a statistical impossibility that all the required variables would fall into place

the revolution was never "betrayed" or "undermined by capitalism" or whatever. the revolution failed because leftist ideology is fucking asinine to an extreme degree and was never going to work in any large scale community, the revolutionaries simply found themselves biting of more then they or humanity as a whole could possibly hope to chew, it was basically all they could do to try and meet the basic needs, keep food and shelter coming to millions of people, an army functioning etc., let alone fucking remodeling society according to fucking insane utopian leftist standards

[Anonymous No.18935852]

Communist manifesto obviously

[Anonymous No.18935865]

>>18935842
based

[Anonymous No.18935876]

>>18935670
do a 360 and walk away. Unless you want to engage with it academically there's no point in reading about a failed economic system.

[Anonymous No.18935880]

>>18935842
I was able to cure you out, but then I realized you were slamming retarded commie. So based.

[Anonymous No.18935882]

>>18935842
it was betrayed and undermined by capitalism. read a book

[Anonymous No.18935884]

>>18935842
>leftist ideology is fucking asinine to an extreme degree and was never going to work in any large scale community
Ever heard of China?

[Anonymous No.18935890]

>>18935876
non meme answer is probably adorno.

[Anonymous No.18935901]

>>18935884
>China
>Leftist
They're just uncultured mongoloids who can only copy the west. First it was communism, now its capitalism. All the internet dengoids that suck up to China don't live there. They would be working 996, or killed themselves from over-working. Privileged white suburban kids sucking up to China to be contrarian. The only reason why you subhumans bring up China because you want attention, and you want to feel important. As if your life matters in the grand scheme of things. You're still a nobody. You're using your internet political persona to escape from your pathetic wage cuck job at Kmart bro. It would be no different if China won, or if you lived in China, you'd still be a poor loser under someone's boot.

[Anonymous No.18935902]

>>18935876
>a failed economic system
They said Communism though - you're thinking of Capitalism, the bad one.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18935908]

>>18935837
>equal and opposite
Lenin used nothing opposite the liberal

>>18935842
Bby, please. You’re embarrassing yourself in front of all these better educated reds

[Anonymous No.18935909]

Here you go bud

[Anonymous No.18935911]

>>18935876
I agree that planned economy doesn't work... UNLESS it's automated planned economy. Read this first if you want to discover why planned economy could actually work with computers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Towards_a_New_Socialism

[Anonymous No.18935918]

>>18935884
you mean the country that couldn't get communism working so they just adopted some fascist political and economic ideas to structure their country and its economy?

[Anonymous No.18935920]

>>18935902
No, I'm pretty sure he said the Holodomor.

[Anonymous No.18935922]

you don't.

[Anonymous No.18935924]

>>18935911
I've already read that and aside from the fact that the computing power simply doesn't exist yet the supply chain side of a planned economy is still a logistical impossibility.

[Anonymous No.18935928]

>>18935911
>waste my time
Lmao, even China banned that book. Nobody believes this crackpot shit. More like towards a new disaster.

[Anonymous No.18935929]

>>18935908
And yet Lenin's methods succeeded in preventing the liberals' goals - their power was matched and beaten back, the White Russians they sponsored ground to nothing. All while an endless procession of anarchists and "libertarian socialists" failed to realize their stated goals. The one is useful, while the other is not..

[Anonymous No.18935931]

>>18935670
Galkovsky

[Anonymous No.18935932]

>>18935695
Literally the worst way to understand communism

[Anonymous No.18935933]

>>18935908
youre embarrassing yourself by VERY transparently trying to pass off the fact that i just called you out and put you in your fucking place and you have no rebuttal, and probably dont even know where to begin mounting a response because you're a pseud larper and probably dont know a fucking thing about this topic

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18935936]

>>18935901
Getting a little sidetracked aren’t we?

>>18935909
>grug unner stand inglish sumday

[Anonymous No.18935939]

>>18935920
No such event occured; to the extent that Ukraine experienced famines, it was due entirely to their own hoarding and mismanagement.

[Anonymous No.18935945]

>>18935933
>>18935908
but HEY you know what? feel free to prove me wrong though, its not like any one is stopping you, right?

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18935952]

>>18935929
>And yet Lenin's methods succeeded in preventing the liberals' goals
>… of installing a dictatorship that would sideline the revolutionary goals for a generation

>>18935933
Two anons already demolished your rant. Nothing else need be said

[Anonymous No.18935953]

>>18935902
please point to me a successful implementation of communism on a large scale.

[Anonymous No.18935955]

>>18935901
In China capitalism is permitted so long as the ccp deems it to be beneficial to the public good. As soon as the ccp determines a corporation to be detrimental to the public good it intervenes. This is the key difference. The socialist mode of production in China is optimized to the public good while in the US it is optimized for profit. This has led to an increase in poverty in the US over the past few decades. Meanwhile in China poverty has reduced drastically. Therefore China has the better government.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18935965]

>>18935945
>>18935884
>>18935882

[Anonymous No.18935970]

>>18935952
>Two anons already demolished your rant. Nothing else need be said
didn't happen
which posts are you referring to? the one that claimed china is a successful example of a stateless classless society? or the one that simply said "you are wrong" while proving not a single piece of information on the topic? is that what you consider "demolishing" arguments?

lmao why cant you exercise an absolute shred of dignity and self respect and just set aside this childish deflecting and simple ADDRESS THE TOPIC AT HAND or ADMIT YOU ARE INCAPABLE OF DOING SO

arent you supposed to be 50 years old or something? how the fuck yo you accumulate that much life experience and still end up acting this way?

[Anonymous No.18935973]

>>18935953
"Large scale" is a strage, and ultimately meaningless designator - but study Cuba, which has resisted the forces of the world's largest superpower, and developed health and welfare for its citizens better than any in the world. There's a reason the capitalist powers try their hardest to crush any non-capitalist state when it emerges, because if they're left to live for even a few decades, their success puts the fraud and foolishness of capitalism to shame in the most obvious terms. Future generations will look back at our ideology of "markets" in the same light as medieval witch trials.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18935974]

>>18935970
>Nothing else need be said
>>18935965

[Anonymous No.18935975]

>>18935955
>"Permitted"
Lmao, imagine being so fucking stupid to believe they'd have any choice. How would China survive without it? China has no spirit, no culture, no ingenuity - they're insects. They can't think of something better. "Socialism" is utter meaningless, like all principles to bug people, because it is a nihilistic means to an end. You are so knee deep in idealism, and retardation, you don't even know you're being played. Live in reality and observe what China for what it is - a shithole with sweatshops that can only produce American commodities.

[Anonymous No.18935985]

>>18935955
>The socialist mode of production in China is optimized to the public good
That's not what the evidence says though
>"With new nationwide longitudinal survey data now available from the China Family Panel Studies (CFPS), we study the level, distribution, and composition of household wealth in contemporary China. We find that the wealth Gini coefficient of China was 0.73 in 2012. The richest 1 percent owned more than one-third of the total national household wealth, while the poorest 25 percent owned less than 2 percent. Housing assets, which accounted for over 70 percent, were the largest component of household wealth. Finally, the urban-rural divide and regional disparities played important roles in household wealth distribution, and institutional factors significantly affected household wealth holdings, wealth growth rate, and wealth mobility."
China has worse income inequality than the United States. Like you really are mis-informed, huh?

[Anonymous No.18935988]

>>18935974
actually there is quite a bit left to say as none of those posts in any way address or refute anything i said, one post literally doesnt say anything, and the other literally proves my point by pointing to an example of a failed communist revolution that defaulted to pseodo fascism to keep its self running for al the reasons i layed out previously

lok now its your turn, but let me guess, youre just going to deflect again because you dont even have a surface level knowledge of the topic of leftist ideology despite basing your whole persona on it

[Anonymous No.18935991]

>>18935670
Start with the Manifesto, then read Engels' Conditions to get some context. After that try to read Capital and you're good.
>>18935901
I live in a developing country and I wanted more to get a tech job in China than to get it in the US. China has a future, when you compare it to developing countries it looks like they are making miracles. And even with a capitalist class existing, they don't see to have gathered any power from the communist party, and you see rich fucks like that Alibaba faggot being put in their places, while this would never happen in the US with the likes of Bezos. Also, they don't give a shit about made up problems like childish Westerns, fuck your gender diseases, we have people to feed. Living in a poor country, seeing another one eliminating hunger, it brings a tear to my eye.
I'm with the Communist Party of China until I die! May we bring down the evil empire that brings only hunger and misery to our people!

[Anonymous No.18935998]

>>18935955
>The socialist mode of production in China
not a thing that actually exists, china uses corporatist modes of production modeled partly on fascist economies

[Anonymous No.18936010]

oh no no no hahahah butters btfo by based autist hahahahahahahahahah
why are tripfags so utterly unbearable? imagine coming to an anonymous board and totally missing the point of anonymity and treating it like reddit ha ha no no I’m dying ha ha ha ha ha ha

[Anonymous No.18936011]

>>18935973
>"Large scale" is a strage, and ultimately meaningless designator
Confirmed retard.

Also Cuba is not communist, it's socialist. And while they have decent healthcare, life expectancy is still slightly below the US.

Quality of life in Cuba is still mediocre at best and they experience frequent shortages of basic goods. There's a reason people have been protesting there, and that so many Cubans have fled to the US.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18936013]

>>18935807
>>18935834
There was a YouTube video with a narrator and a lot of old black and white footage explaining away the food shortages. All very complex, but convincing

[Anonymous No.18936028]

>>18935973
Cuba is a shithole people flee from on boats though? You're also ignoring the fact that Cuba has allowed private enterprise, on its Island, since its inception and continues to privatize. The "embargo" isn't the reason why its in shambles. The embargo only prevents US businesses from operating in Cuba. Cuba still gets 5% of its food imports from the United States, and the embargo doesn't stop it from doing business with Europe. The "developed healthcare and welfare" is just a commie lie. So is that vaccine bullshit.
>"A lung cancer vaccine doesn’t prevent the disease; it is judged a success if it slows down or stops tumor growth. The drug in this case, Cimavax, extended life by about three months in the Cuban study. Access to Cimavax is limited to about 180 patients in one American study and those who go on their own to Cuba. The combined total represents a tiny fraction of people with lung cancer. "
Its pretty worthless.

[Anonymous No.18936031]

>>18935834
>The CIA
They're still finding mass graves. You're in the minority btw.
https://www.9news.com.au/world/stalin-era-mass-grave-found-in-the-ukraine/8b532954-f25e-46be-a367-aab75d721cd7

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18936038]

>>18936028
*doctors flee it for something interesting to do
Shame about the embargo. They sure know how to handle hurricane season.
Why do so many Texans and Florides have to die?

[Anonymous No.18936041]

>>18935973
>Cuba
>developed health and welfare for its citizens better than any in the world
reminder that cuba has a lower life expectancy than such paradises as ecuador, costa rica, colombia, panama, and peru

[Anonymous No.18936044]

>>18935998
Couldn't be further from the truth. Read The Tax in Kind by Lenin and see where the current Chinese model came from.
>>18936028
You can't deny that Cuba is doing pretty good compared to it's neighbours in the Caribbean though.

[Anonymous No.18936053]

>>18936044
Why should I care? I'm doing better, most places in the world are doing better than the Caribbean? Why should I feel impressed by mediocrity. If you guys love it so much - just move there. Guantanamo Bay is looking nice these days.

[Anonymous No.18936054]

>>18935973
Apparently that vaccine was created under an organization called CIMAB SA(or at the very least commercialized) with the purpose of MAKING FUCKING MONEY both in and out of Cuba. I can’t seem to find any information about CIMA before CIMAB SA or if it’s privately owned or owned by the Cuban government. BUT apparently an Indian bio pharmaceutical company, biocon, owns a 41% stake in the company. So take that as you will. At the very least there is a profit incentive motive.

[Anonymous No.18936061]

>>18936053
>Why should I care?
Because then you can measure how efficient a system is, given the same resources.
>If you guys love it so much - just move there.
Or just implement the same system in the country we live.

[Anonymous No.18936063]

>>18936044
actually i couldn't be closer to the truth, chinese industry is mostly structured in a top down corperatist hierarchies with party officials heading each corporation. socialist modes of production implies workers owning the capital that they work, that is not the case in china

[Anonymous No.18936066]

>>18936044
>Climate change in the Caribbean poses major risks to the islands in the Caribbean. The main environmental changes expected to affect the Caribbean are a rise in sea level, stronger hurricanes, longer dry seasons and shorter wet seasons.[1] As a result, climate change is expected to lead to changes in the economy, environment and population of the Caribbean.[2][3][4] Temperature rise of 2°C above preindustrial levels can increase the likelihood of extreme hurricane rainfall by four to five times in the Bahamas and three times in Cuba and Dominican Republic.[5] Rise in sea level could impact coastal communities of the Caribbean if they are less than 3 metres (10 ft) above the sea. In Latin America and the Caribbean, it is expected that 29 – 32 million people may be affected by the sea level rise because they live below this threshold. The Bahamas and Trinidad and Tobago are expected to be the most affected because at least 80% of the total land is below the sea level.[6][7]
Don't really care

[Anonymous No.18936070]

>>18936061
>Because then you can measure how efficient a system is, given the same resources.
It was tried in Venezuela, China and Russia and Eastern Europe with massive failures though, so, that theory can out the window
>Or just implement the same system in the country we live.
I don't think you realize how unpopular you are.

[Anonymous No.18936071]

>>18936061
>Because then you can measure how efficient a system is, given the same resources.
the better metric would be how much better cuba was doing than its neighbors in 1959, when it was the most prosperous country in latin america vs. how much better off it is today

[Anonymous No.18936081]

>>18935670
The definitive bible of Marxist-Leninism in the West, up the 70s.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18936096]

>>18936081
Funnily enough, OP asked about communism

[Anonymous No.18936099]

>>18936071
Actually, the fact that Cuba was doing well before the revolution means that socialism was unnecessary

[Anonymous No.18936105]

>>18936070
>It was tried in Venezuela
Not it wasn't, no communist party is in power in Venezuela. But the Chavistas are fridnly to the cause, it seems.
>China
It wasnpt tried in China, it's in power in China still. The fastest growing economy in the world for the last decades, whose life conditions only get better each day, probably the first country ever to become a developed country without colonizing others or receiving massive aids from external powers. Yeah, China is a good example.
>Russia and Eastern Europe
Fair enough, the communists lost power there, although they did make great advancements for mankind, but so did revolutionary France back in the day.
>I don't think you realize how unpopular you are.
If that was true the media and the establishment wouldn't be so afraid everytime a real communist shows up.

[Anonymous No.18936120]

>>18936105
>Not it wasn't, no communist party is in power in Venezuela. But the Chavistas are fridnly to the cause, it seems.
Venezuela tried socialism, like in Cuba, and failed. Your other examples are just "no true Scotsman" so they can be discarded.
>Fair enough, the communists lost power there, although they did make great advancements for mankind,
Not really - GDP per capita and life expectancy skyrocketed when socialism collapsed in Eastern Europe.
>If that was true the media and the establishment wouldn't be so afraid every time a real communist shows up.
People are afraid of the Bubonic Plague, but that doesn't make it popular. lol.

[Anonymous No.18936122]

>>18936099
"Doing well" according to who? Not the workers who made pennies on the hour in American Mafia-owned casinos, or the women sold into prostitution against their will, or the sugar cane pickers who were whipped into submission on a daily basis. Batista was the monster the Western media pretends Castro was, and everyone was better off with his profit-based government gone.

[Anonymous No.18936123]

>>18936105
chinas economy is not growing fast because of communism, chinas economy grew fast because they formed a centralized authoritarian governmental structure and basically went about things like they were min maxing in a video game, using the power of the state to seize control of the economy, create efficient corperatist structures, throw everyone into sweatshops in the worst imaginable conditions to produce goods as cheap as possible for the aforementioned state run corporations to engage in capitalism with

[Anonymous No.18936140]

>>18936122
According to the statistics that existed pre-revolution whereas Cuba had one of the highest GDP per capita in the region, higher than US and even a higher life expectancy. You're just saying a bunch of stupid shit - Cuba wouldn't even been an independent country in the first place without United States helping their revolution against the Spanish. You've never read a history book on Cuba, in your life, have you?

[Anonymous No.18936143]

Marx & Engels but definitely don't start with Das Kapital. Besides reading theory I'd suggest Michael Heinrich.

[Anonymous No.18936148]

>>18936122
doing well according to any economic or quality of life statistics. compare them to the dominican republic, for example.
1959:
Cuba GDP per capita: $4360
Cuba Life Expectancy: 65.6
DR GDP per capita: $3030
DR Life Expectancy: 57.8
2018:
Cuba GDP per capita: $8130
Cuba Life Expectancy: 78.5
DR GDP per capita: $16400
DR Life Expectancy: 73.5
so while it's true that cuba's done less badly on health statistics than other metrics they've lost ground even there.

[Anonymous No.18936168]

>>18936122
Most countries in the Caribbeans are doing better than Cuba, and they're capitalist though.

[Anonymous No.18936196]

>>18935975
>Global Attitudes survey
Kek what a meaningless graph to share

[Anonymous No.18936199]

>>18935985
What about trends?

[Anonymous No.18936202]

>>18935736
>how dare someone be attracted to 17-year-olds! this offends my moral sensibilities! i care greatly about what other people are attracted to!
faggot. get an actual reason to dislike him

[Anonymous No.18936211]

>>18936196
It lower under Mao Zedong. Lol.

[Anonymous No.18936220]

>>18936120
>Venezuela tried socialism, like in Cuba, and failed.
No communist party ever took power in Venezuela, as a country it still works like it used to before Chaves, with the same institutions, only Maduro is the president now. You may be referring to Chaves' failed coup in the 90s, but I don't see how it could hold any relevance.
>Your other examples are just "no true Scotsman" so they can be discarded.
How so? China says openly that they are a marxist country, you are the one denying it.
>Not really - GDP per capita and life expectancy skyrocketed when socialism collapsed in Eastern Europe.
Only a decade or so after in most countries, but by that logic the URSS also increased life expectancy and the economy saw a large growth as well from the previous regime.

[Anonymous No.18936243]

>>18935975
In China poverty is dropping, the middle class is expanding, homeownership is growing, etc. All media sources including western ones agree this is the case. China still of course has many problems, and they are working to solve them, as they have been for decades.
>>18935985
“From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.“ The point of Marxism is not a fixed income for all people. If one has a desire to work incredibly hard they should have the ability to do so, so long as it is to the benefit of the public good of course. This only becomes a problem when a bourgeoise class begins to form and consolidate extra-governmental power. So long as a billionaire’s production is subordinate to the state’s rule of maximizing the good for all of society there is no harm done.

[Anonymous No.18936250]

Imagine going through hell and kickstarting the first real socialist revolution built on Marxist principles and some lesbian anarchist calls you a liberal one century later.

[Anonymous No.18936255]

>>18936071
>>18936148
>>18936168
Cuba wasn't the most prosperous country in latam in the 50s, or even in 1959 under Battista. It also had lower GDP per capita than for example Jamaica, which had a value of $4,767.47.

[Anonymous No.18936263]

>>18936255
>jamaica
>latin
oh no anon what are you doing

[Anonymous No.18936268]

>>18936220
>No communist party ever took power in Venezuela, as a country it still works like it used to before Chaves, with the same institutions, only Maduro is the president now. You may be referring to Chaves' failed coup in the 90s, but I don't see how it could hold any relevance
Again, Venezuela was socialist and it collapsed. You're pushing goalposts for your arguments. Your Cuba argument is woefully inconsistent. You want to claim the improves to Cuba after the communist revolution as a success, but then dismiss the anti-communist revolutions that improved Eastern Europe? You can't have it both ways - if you accept Cuba's revolution improving living standards, you'd have to accept the revolutions of 1989 improving Eastern Europe.
>URSS also increased life expectancy and the economy saw a large growth
The Tsar's economy was already doing well before the Russian Revolution too, like Cuba, so that also results out that argument.
http://economics.mit.edu/files/8702

[Anonymous No.18936272]

>>18936255
>Jamaica
>Latin American
Lmao, how fucking retarded are you commies

[Anonymous No.18936295]

The ideology is a subtle joke. The premise is "workers own the means of production", where it is implied that people working a piece of capital will communally/socially own that capital thus bestowing the tittle , communism/socialism. The state says that the revolutionary government is "by and for the people, therefore, if we change the interpretation of "owning the means of prudiction", we get "Communism/socialism in practice"

[Anonymous No.18936301]

>>18936263
>>18936272
It's in the Caribbean, my original argument was about the Caribbean countries, the talk about Latam was from the anon who responded to me.
Also, I did make a mistake, but so did the original anon who posted Cuba's GDP per capita in 1959. The table data I was looking just showed the latest data available, which was in 1990. I suspect the other anon did the same in his post, here it is, GDP per capita in Cuba and Jamaica in 1959:
Cuba $2,362.84
Jamaica $2,458.24
Still lower, wrong numbers.
Source: Bolt and van Zanden (2015)

[Anonymous No.18936349]

>>18936301
i got mine from gapminder world's dataset https://www.gapminder.org/data/documentation/gd001/

[Anonymous No.18936366]

>>18936301
Yeah, Cuba was doing well even before the revolution. Batista did not leave office until 1959. You commies are still wrong

[Anonymous No.18936378]

>>18936301
Cuba was one of the richest countries in Latin America before Castro. Now, its not even in the 10 top. The Cuban revolution was a failure.

[Anonymous No.18936389]

>>18936063
Fascism was the subordination of the state to the interests of capital. International finance and industry backed Hitler and profited greatly from his imperialism. This is not China. The ccp established a dictatorship of the proletariat, a people’s republic to build communism. Production is determined by the public good as defined by the Republic (the people.)

[Anonymous No.18936401]

>>18936389
>International finance and industry backed Hitler
they backed bolshevism too, just as they've been backing china for the past 40 years

[Anonymous No.18936402]

>>18936389
>Fascism was the subordination of the state to the interests of capital.
Stop this meme. And no hitler was not a Fascist.
>The ccp established a dictatorship of the proletariat
Dictatorship of bureaucracy. There has never been DoP in history. China's economy today is corporatist, the same as it was in Fascist Italy.

[Anonymous No.18936415]

>>18936389
>Fascism was the subordination of the state to the interests of capital
objectively incorrect, by a fucking mile holy shit bro, its literally the opposite of what you just said. fascism is the organization of capital into a corporatist structure to be effectively wielded efficiently by the state, the fact that the government in turn provided what was needed for industry to prosper does not mean the government was subordinate. anyway, this is literally what china is doing

> International finance and industry backed Hitler
you mean like how the US and other capitalist nations deeply invested in china in the late half of the 20th century and to this day china's entire economy is dependent on western capitalists outsourcing their capital there? anyways investing in germany was a fucking blatantly obvious move given his rapid development of the economy, and if all you care about is making money, investing in china and outsourcing your capital there is also a an easy and obvious economic play

[Anonymous No.18936449]

>>18936401
>they backed bolshevism too
Yes, in an attempt to fold them into globalism. They were unable to do this in Russia but they succeeded in Germany.
>they've been backing china for the past 40 years
Correct, again in an attempt to fold them into globalism, but it’s not working: https://nypost.com/2019/01/25/george-soros-calls-xi-jinping-the-most-dangerous-enemy/amp/
>>18936402
>hitler was not a Fascist.
What was he then?
>There has never been DoP in history.
? The ccp acts in the interests of the people. They hold their mandate.
>China's economy today is corporatist, the same as it was in Fascist Italy.
Yea it’s corporatist, it’s also socialist. These aren’t mutually exclusive.

[Anonymous No.18936453]

>>18935670
Engels. Kolakowski. Sheila Fitzpatrick. Scissors crisis debate.

[Anonymous No.18936458]

>>18936449
>? The ccp acts in the interests of the people. They hold their mandate.
lmao holy shit he actually did it

see >>18936295

[Anonymous No.18936462]

>>18936449
>What was he then?
A liberal.
>The ccp acts in the interests of the people. They hold their mandate.
"The people's stick."
>Yea it’s corporatist, it’s also socialist
No it isn't. China recognizes private property rights.

[Anonymous No.18936466]

>>18936449
>Yea it’s corporatist, it’s also socialist. These aren’t mutually exclusive.
Over 60% of China's GDP per capita comes from private companies though
>The ccp acts in the interests of the people. They hold their mandate.
That's difficult to argue considering the Chinese Party owns all the media, the information and has a total monopoly on political power
>Correct, again in an attempt to fold them into globalism, but it’s not working:
It has worked though? China is a member of the UN, World Bank and WTO. Its partners with Israel. Even Xi defends globalization
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/01/chinas-xi-jinping-defends-globalization-from-the-davos-stage/

[Anonymous No.18936490]

>>18936041
BUTTERS! CONGRATULATIONS! You have been given the opportunity to change my ML mind. It won't be easy since I'm a pretty committed Leninist, but I believe in you! All you have to do is play out the following situation to a secure point. Here is the situation:

> September 1917
> your party, the anarchists, have great support among the workers.
> but things are looking bad, the popular Tsarist general Kornilov is planning a coup.
> Firstly, explain how you will deal with the coup, and then we can progress on to stage two

[Anonymous No.18936496]

>>18936490
Oops sorry wrong anon

[Anonymous No.18936503]

>>18936490
It was the Bolsheviks who coup'd the government - not the Tsar, retard.

[Anonymous No.18936507]

>>18936449
if the ccp is socialist because it "acts in the interest in the people" then you DEFINITELY need to acknowledge national socialism as a form of socialist ideology considering national socialism called for a corporation of state funder welfare programs for working class people as well as a general workers corporation that successfully lobbied the government and various private and public corporations to get better work conditions and benefits, meanwhile most people living under the ccp are still working in absolutely abhorrent conditions making pennies

[Anonymous No.18936519]

>>18936507
This. Even tho i dont consider hitler socialist.
I mean by this logic nordic system is socialist, which, just, lol.

[Anonymous No.18936522]

>>18936503
Read a book pls. The kornilov coup was before the bolshevik one

[Anonymous No.18936524]

>>18936507
The CPC ain't socialist, it's state capitalism. They aim to fully realise socialism by 2030 iirc

[Anonymous No.18936549]

>>18936415
>fascism is the organization of capital into a corporatist structure to be effectively wielded efficiently by the state
Corporatism done right is someone like Salazar. Meanwhile Hitler destroyed his country to the monetary and geopolitical benefit of international finance. We have fascism in the anglosphere today. Political and financial oligarchs are the same class and they act in their own selfish interests to the detriment of the citizenry.
>anyway, this is literally what china is doing
Nope, the ccp disciplines it’s industrialists all the time, and the quality of life of the average Chinese citizen continues to rise as a result of this.
>you mean like how the US and other capitalist nations deeply invested in china in the late half of the 20th century and to this day china's entire economy is dependent on western capitalists outsourcing their capital there?
Deng Xiaoping:
>We welcome foreign investment and advanced techniques. Management is also a technique. Will they undermine our socialism? Not likely, because the socialist sector is the mainstay of our economy. Our socialist economic base is so huge that it can absorb tens and hundreds of billions of dollars’ worth of foreign funds without being shaken. Foreign investment will doubtless serve as a major supplement in the building of socialism in our country. And as things stand now, that supplement is indispensable. Naturally, some problems will arise in the wake of foreign investment. But its negative impact will be far less significant than the positive use we can make of it to accelerate our development. It may entail a slight risk, but not much.

>Well, those are our plans. We shall accumulate new experience and try new solutions as new problems arise. In general, we believe that the course we have chosen, which we call building socialism with Chinese characteristics, is the right one. We have followed this road for five and a half years and have achieved satisfactory results; indeed, the pace of development has so far exceeded our projections. If we go on this way, we shall be able to reach the goal of quadrupling China’s GNP by the end of the century. And so I can tell our friends that we are even more confident now.
Not to mention the outsourcing of labor from the US to China is in the long term a detriment to the US, the Chinese surely knew this.

[Anonymous No.18936568]

>>18936549
none of what you said actually argues against the fact that fascism is literally corperatist structures wielded by the state
>Nope, the ccp disciplines it’s industrialists all the time
and that is literally what the state wielding a corperatist structure looks like, sometimes you need to give a good tug on the leash, sometimes you need to throw a dog a bone, it all depends on what is most important to keeping the whole opperation running smoothly

[Anonymous No.18936623]

>>18936462
>China recognizes private property rights.
>>18936466
>Over 60% of China's GDP per capita comes from private companies though
Here’s a massive misconception of Marxism: It is not about the abolishment of class or private property. In Marx’s writings the Hegelian term aufheben got translated as abolish. A far better translation would be overcome. That means the contradictions within class and the idea of property are resolved and a more nuanced form is achieved. For example, in China the Republic (the people) own all the property. A piece of property can be purchased by someone and then that property can become private. This helps prevent China from some of the property issues the US has.
>That's difficult to argue considering the Chinese Party owns all the media, the information and has a total monopoly on political power
Well they’ve invested a lot in education and their education system is very good so it’s not like they’re dumbing down their people, but honestly I would expect them to hold a high opinion of their government, their needs are being provided for, the Chinese middle class is huge. Western media also says Putin’s high approval rating is a result of censorship but I don’t buy that, from what I’ve seen Russians like Putin and Chinese like Xi.

[Anonymous No.18936628]

>>18935681
Good recs. Unsurprisingly completely ignored.

[Anonymous No.18936637]

>>18936623
>Here’s a massive misconception of Marxism: It is not about the abolishment of class or private property.
Marx's, Hegels gobbledygook non-sense is irrelevant. Its un-falsifiable non-sense. You'll just revise the theory into something else anytime a contradiction arises to myopically justify CCP's hold on power. Even if we accept your claim, the United States would be considered socialist then using your own fucking logic, retard. You people are not convincing whatsoever.

[Anonymous No.18936645]

>>18936568
We both agree corporatism is good, perhaps our disagreement lies on the legacy of fascism as practiced by Mussolini and Hitler. I think it was a terrible failure for the people of Europe and was orchestrated by international finance. I think Hitler was a fool who got played.

[Anonymous No.18936661]

>>18935695
Nope.

[Anonymous No.18936667]

>>18936637
>You'll just revise the theory into something else anytime a contradiction arises to myopically justify CCP's hold on power.
Yes, a government should revise its policies if necessary when confronted with new problems.
>Even if we accept your claim, the United States would be considered socialist then using your own fucking logic, retard.
Obviously the US is in several was socialistic, healthcare, welfare, etc.

[Anonymous No.18936675]

>>18936645
>I think Hitler was a fool
the CCP certainly doesn't think so

[Anonymous No.18936685]

>>18936623
>private property should be overcome
Thank you, I did not know this.

[Anonymous No.18936691]

>>18935738
communism is not utopian socialism you pseud

[Anonymous No.18936702]

Are there actually faggots in this thread claiming china is actually communist kek doesn't everything go through one party

[Anonymous No.18936703]

>>18936466
>It has worked though? China is a member of the UN, World Bank and WTO. Its partners with Israel. Even Xi defends globalization
But Xi is critical of globalism as commonly defined. He’d rather have a multipolar order. I agree with Xi in that an increasingly interconnected world is inevitable, question is should it be ruled by a hegemon or can states retain their sovereignty.

[Anonymous No.18936710]

>>18936691
what is communism if not utopian socialism? from what i can tell communism is objectively a classless and stateless society where the people own the means of production and distribution of goods, which is inherently utopian

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18936711]

>>18936691
Not to tankies I guess.
Some people know how to dream bigger than state authoritarianism

[Anonymous No.18936713]

>>18936675
Why do you think that

[Anonymous No.18936715]

>>18936711
oh hey youre back, i dont know if this anon is still here but you should answer this question >>18936490

[Anonymous No.18936725]

>>18936710
>what is communism if not utopian socialism?
Anon is referring to the fact that Marx called his ideas scientific socialism, in opposition to his contemporaries whom he called idealist socialists.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18936726]

>>18936715
>your party, the anarchists
“Kek”
Let me sleep on it

[Anonymous No.18936732]

>>18936710
Communism is the endpoint of dialectical materialism. I don’t know of any “communist” state claiming to have achieved this. Marxist-Leninist is a far better title for these governments. Communism is something the Marxist-Leninist works towards through the overcoming of class tensions.

[Anonymous No.18936746]

>>18936732
....so it is indeed a utopian carrot on a stick

[Anonymous No.18936749]

>>18936711
>Some people know how to dream bigger than state authoritarianism

The people who "dream bigger than state authoritarianism" are usually the worst form of liberal utopians, e.g the people who claim they are communists while accepting and wanting to accelerate the worst aspects of modern day capitalism.

The Verso Loft Brooklynites who think that antinatalism is a "good thing from a Communist perspective", or the PhDs in African-American Studies who want to "abolish the police".

[Anonymous No.18936752]

>>18936711
You can keep dreaming then loser while Xi is busy DOING

[Anonymous No.18936768]

>>18936746
It’s produced good government in China so that’s a W in my book

[Anonymous No.18936775]

>>18935991
>May we bring down the evil empire that brings only hunger and misery to our people!
Inshallah brother

[Anonymous No.18936796]

>>18935670
Unironically Animal Farm

[Anonymous No.18936798]

>>18936507
>if the ccp is socialist because it "acts in the interest in the people" then you DEFINITELY need to acknowledge national socialism as a form of socialist ideology
I do
>most people living under the ccp are still working in absolutely abhorrent conditions making pennies
Wrong https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/09/30/chinas-giant-middle-class-is-still-growing-and-companies-want-in.html

[Anonymous No.18936815]

>>18936726
Sure thing. Maybe make a thread about it so I can respond easier

[Anonymous No.18937366]

>>18935681
good, i'd add the principles of communism and the communist postscript too though

[Anonymous No.18937440]

>>18936691
All "communism" is utopian idealism, you niggerfaggot. Only faggots and retards take it seriously. No man with balls will be advocating for socialism - just fat, shameless sacks of shit

[Anonymous No.18937445]

>>18936725
"scientific socialism" is just sophistic solipsism. Marx's theories are un-falsifiable non-sense.

[Anonymous No.18937456]

>>18936667
>Yes, a government should revise its policies if necessary when confronted with new problems.
Yeah, the problem being your ideas don't actually work, in practice, so you have just lie and pretend you're something you're not.
>Obviously the US is in several was socialistic, healthcare, welfare, etc.
Socialism is just a meaningless word, again, you people are just nihilists - like Evola said

[Anonymous No.18937728]

>>18935736
>Foolish anti-semite, groomed a 17-year-old and never accomplished anything of value. Into the bin with him.
based?

[Anonymous No.18937739]

>>18935736
Bakunin did more action than Marx ever did. Don't be cringe.

[Anonymous No.18937756]

>>18935670
Mein Kampf
The Third Reich was the closest thing the world ever had to communism.

[Anonymous No.18937883]

>>18935738
>You don't?
Ending a declarative statement with a fucking question mark is the most pseud act of a degenerate.

[Anonymous No.18937888]

>>18935762
God i fucking love Xi.

[Anonymous No.18937905]

>>18935901
Imagine having all these opinions and not realizing for a second how deep the BBC of the CIAs propaganda is in your throat

[Anonymous No.18937927]

>>18936028
>Cuba is a shithole people flee from on boats though?
I remember when I was a kid and believed what I read in mainstream news too

[Anonymous No.18937936]

>>18935975
>no spirit, no culture, no ingenuity
I know westoids have always been an intellectual void, but it still pains me when I see them so eagerly voice their supposed 'truths' without any self-awareness

[Anonymous No.18937953]

>>18935985
>2012
A lot has changed in 9 years. China accomplishes a decade of progress in a year. Just look at how theyve actually reached climate goals ahead of schedule, whereas all western nations end up having them delayed, and still not meet targets.

[Anonymous No.18937957]

>>18935991
Based thirdworlder, I wish you all the best in getting a China job

[Anonymous No.18937961]

>>18937953
>china reached climate goals
You cannot be serious lmao

[Anonymous No.18937969]

>>18936011
>A tiny developing country being mercilessly crushed under the heel of its bully neighbour has slightly lower life expectancy than the worlds singular superpower
Do Americans really view this metric as painting them in a good light?? I know their views on healthcare are beyond deranged but still

[Anonymous No.18937972]

>>18936243
>billionaires just work really hard
Looks like socialism is based after all. A lot of Westerners would be fine with socialism if you just make sure to emphasize you can still become a billionaire by working hard

[Anonymous No.18937974]

Start by actually learning economics before you tackle communism. Ignore everyone else in this thread.

[Anonymous No.18937993]

>>18935834
>the lefty equivalent of holocaust deniers
you have to be 18 to post here

[Anonymous No.18938028]

>>18937961
Not my fault you're a retard who refuses to use google. China didn't just accidentally slip and fall into near-world superpower status, as seems to be the general consensus amongst westoids.

[Anonymous No.18938037]

>>18938028
>he thinks being a superpower has literally anything to do with 'climate goals'
Based retard

[Anonymous No.18938045]

>>18937974
funny that marx bases a lot of his work off of adam smith.

[Anonymous No.18938060]

>>18937953
Here are your climate goals bro
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-57018837
>China emits more greenhouse gas than the entire developed world combined, a new report has claimed.

>The research by Rhodium Group says China emitted 27% of the world's greenhouse gases in 2019.

>The US was the second-largest emitter at 11% while India was third with 6.6% of emissions, the think tank said.

[Anonymous No.18938061]

>>18935932
>>18935695
Communists have the worst sense of humor, I tell ya.
And yes unironically most zoomers will hear about communism in their humanities classes.

[Anonymous No.18938136]

>>18938060
>What is population size

[Anonymous No.18938142]

>>18938060
>>18938136
Also, bbc? Come on bro.

[Anonymous No.18938491]

>>18936044
>You can't deny that Cuba is doing pretty good compared to it's neighbours in the Caribbean though.

What like Haiti, and Jamaica? That's a low bar.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18938503]

>>18936490
>1917 fantasy sequence
The people had a short lived revolution, but it was turned into a coup. Ideally a military action to keep the Whites from seizing power would leave the pernicious arrangement to sink into the swamp of history. Actual political power would rest in all, not as party members, but as one wills, each town and district divvying up into manageable segments. With enough support even a rocky start could quickly adapt. After witnessing/hearing of the political shenanigans of the Mensheviks (minority) taking advantage of the split Bolsheviks (majority), one would think to steer clear of mere 51% rules
> your party, that isn’t a party, has great support with itself
They would have to. They would have to outnumber and outmaneuver the statists. Some governmental systems need to be kept, like Graeber points out transportation and international trade, but these are small manageable branches. The Law givers and military are what need to be dissolved and fully integrated by the people
>The coups
Again, this variable all depends on the amount of popular support. If the “Blacks” can’t convert the Reds and would-be Whites the. You have that civil war. The decaying Whites had support with upper middle class bitches and brainwashed patriots. But why won’t revolutionaries think in revolutionary terms? In the case of the failed Russian revolution, the patchy Reds were brainwashed to believe it was a successful revolution they fought.
>Firstly, explain how YOU—
There can be numerous individuals setting themselves free, but the jailers catch up with many. There can only be a collectivist revolution. But we ought not alienate the individualists with talk of “dictatorships of the proletariat”. That’s not a step to the commune, that’s a dead end leading back to the problem we’re trying to revolt from.

[Anonymous No.18938544]

>>18938503
> If the “Blacks” can’t convert the Reds and would-be Whites the. You have that civil war.

The blacks have as much support as the bolsheviks did in this situation. If you deal with the coup then the popular support will skyrocket.

The problem here is that there isn't enough time to convince them. They have made up their minds that your group will be the end of Russia. From what you wrote it seems as if you would let the civil war happen earlier than it did. In which case your chances would be weakened, as one of the main reasons the bolsheviks were popular was that they were the only thing keeping the coup from happening.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18938629]

>>18938544
>as much support as the bolsheviks
We’re talking about the Mensheviks or the actual Bolsheviks?
I think a good/better approach is to win over people economically and perhaps culturally too. Give them something to fight for. This was partially the case for the partial success of the Catalonian *social* revolution
>The coup kept the other coup from happening
Both ends suck. The Reds turned Pink in the end anyway

[Anonymous No.18938657]

>>18938503
>Actual political power would rest in all, not as party members, but as one wills, each town and district divvying up into manageable segments.
Butterfly pls.
It's a pretty idea but it's not how things work

[Anonymous No.18938661]

>>18937974
Definitely don't do this, Marx was not an economist but a critic of economics ("political economy"). At most maybe read Smith and Ricardo first, since they are whom Marx is in large part critiquing. But if you read le epic marginalism before tackling Marx you will fall into the econ undergrad trap of thinking that the philosophical assumptions your textbook gave you somehow disprove Marx.

[Anonymous No.18938675]

>>18938629
The bolsheviks as lead by Lenin.
The coup happened within weeks, how does one win over people socially or economically in that time? I don't disagree with the idea but it's not feasible in this situation.

>The coup kept the other coup from happening

But that's not what I'm arguing. In this situation there are no bolsheviks. Your party is the bolsheviks and you have to try and secure the revolution. That's what this whole thing is about-how would your system win

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18938714]

>>18938657
>it's not how things work
It is how things can work.

>>18938675
Ah. No. They were a minority taking advantages of a split. A political dirty trick parliamentarians use all the time. Lenin and company were Mensheviks till people got shot or imprisoned.
Winning over people take time. I of course mean in the lead up. Which, in the hypothetical, we’d have and we’d keep political (statesmen/statecraft) from happening and achieve an actual *social* revolution

[Anonymous No.18938727]

>>18938714
Okay I feel I didn't phrase my scenario as good as I could've.

>1917
> no bolsheviks, rather your party takes the place of the bolsheviks
>impending coup happening within 3 weeks
> how do you stop the coup, or do you let it play out?

[Anonymous No.18938931]

>>18935670
Never, ever, read about communism. It'll corrupt your body and your soul. You'll end up a faggot, and will burn in hell.
My advice, read Jordan Peterson: 12 rules, Map of meaning.
Those are the primary material for a young man to succeed in life tomorrow.

[Anonymous No.18939047]

>>18935753
>Lenin lived in a mansion
Lenin famously never moved out of the servants quarters

[Anonymous No.18939065]

>>18935670
i like his outfit in that pic so much.
think I can pull that look off today?

[Anonymous No.18939263]

>>18937456
>Yeah, the problem being your ideas don't actually work
It’s working in China

[Anonymous No.18939274]

>>18938714
>It is how things can work.
how then? why cant you give a tangible step by step explanation as to how you can force millions of people to function perfectly like a machine with out authority to hold them in place? this is where your belief system falls apart, the only explanation you can offer is "it will happen because i said it will!"

[Anonymous No.18939288]

>>18937739
Anarchists have no positive project, they only destroy. To the gulag with them

[Anonymous No.18939375]

>>18935695
/thread

[Anonymous No.18939415]

>>18939274
>How are you going to have society without a king? Why can't you give me a tangible step-by-step explanation as to how you can force millions of voters to function perfectly like a machine without an absolute sovereign? This is where your belief system falls apart, the only explanation you can offer is "it will happen because I said it will!"
>QED liberal democracy can't work, better stay in monarchism forever

[Anonymous No.18939421]

>>18939415
this but unironically

[Anonymous No.18939471]

>>18935762
>the form of government is of very small importance, although half-educated people think otherwise. The great goal of statecraft should be duration, which outweighs all else, inasmuch as it is more valuable than liberty.
Welp, I’m going to be quoting this for the rest of my life. Truer words have never been spoken.

[Anonymous No.18939499]

>>18939288
>Anarchists have no positive project, they only destroy
Creative destructive is a positive development in a decadent world . Alas, anarchists don't do this - they're even more decadent, dog shit versions

[Anonymous No.18939541]

>NOOOOO U GOTTA READ DA MEMIFESTO!!!11!!
Cringe millenial commie boomer larper detected. Read Capital or get filtiered. Then read actually amazing and interesting to read modern works like picrel, which is a masterpiece of both communist thought and of literary prose.

[Anonymous No.18939551]

>>18939415
lmao wut? are you actually so retarded that you thought this was an actual rebuttal to what i said? why would you even post this lol? you can not have a king and still have a hierarchy with authority to administer over a nation. this is an absolute false equivalence as here we are talking about millions of people operating autonomously in perfect synchronicity wi5th each other like preprogrammed robots without any authority administering the whole thing

what a wierd and embarrassing post

[Anonymous No.18939642]

>>18939551
>>18939274
It is simple. (Full) Communism is based on the idea that statelesness will be achieved via returning to the system of collective repression of anti-social behaviour that was dominant in pre-slavery societies. I lack the academic language to explain it eloquently, but the gist is this - communism will work for the same reason why basic etiquette works. Everyone (who isn't an ostricized subhuman) washes their hands, flushes the toilet, collects their dogs turds, throws away trash in a container, returns shopping carts to their place and so on. None of these (at least in normal countries, can't be sure about Singapore) are punishable by law. They are not enforced by a central power of some sort of state. They work because they are reinforced by a collective law of ethics. You will work under communism and not be lazy doing it because you would be seen as a shitter otherwise, ostrocized from the collective, which in the case of a collectivist society basically means death.

[Anonymous No.18939668]

>>18936749
Antinatalism is good from any truly ethical perspective, retard.

[Anonymous No.18939686]

>>18939551
sorry you can't understand analogies. some exist that aren't "false equivalencies" you know, like that one
>>18939642
tankie moment

[Anonymous No.18939687]

>>18939668
I don't like antinatalism though. Check mate

[Anonymous No.18939723]

>>18939686
How is that a tankie moment? Tankie moment is "I'm a retard nigger comparty elite and don't like X ergo X is now banned wdym state needs to be dissolved?". I guess anarkids are just too fucking retarded to realize libertarianism, or the respect for "muh individual" is a dead end that leads to social collapse. Or perhaps I ticked of a uighur who can't act normal and larps as Deogenese antisocial parasite.

[Anonymous No.18939725]

>>18939642
so basically communism is like one big African live leak video where justice and enforcement exists in the form of vigilantism and if youre suspected of doing something wrong you get the ol' gasoline tire

even here though youre still missing something, youre saying the community will continually function out of social pressure, but thats only part of it, the other part is actually making the community happen in the first place, and dealing with other communities, as it still doesn't explain what happens when other communities dont follow suit and become more efficient and powerful states that can easily dominate your "autonomous neighborhood"

youre saying "people within the community will cooperate via social pressure" which might make sense on a very small scale, but people wont up and decide to join your commune or respect its sovereignty because of social pressure

not tomention the fact that as soon as you start scaling things up and administering things becomes infinitely more complicated, so rises the need for concrete institutions like some sort of inter-communal law enforcement

[Anonymous No.18939754]

>>18939686
i do understand analogies, and no that isnt one of them

you very VERY clearly tried to equate moving from one hierarchical authority structure to another with moving from hierarchical authority structures to anarchic autonomy in order to downplay the complexity of the former transition, and now you are backtracking because i pointed out how clearly dishonest your post was

[Anonymous No.18939929]

>>18939725
Not the guy you're responding to but if it helps, to understand what commies think will happen after the revolution you have to understand the utopian socialist currents of the 19th century. Anarchists and others were still high on the Enlightenment and its fables of infinite progress and so on. The same people who thought that liberalization in Germany would naturally lead to a kind of progressive utopia were in dialogue with anarchists who thought that the ricketiness of modern states was a sign that the true and natural "socialism" of the modern age was finally ready to be born and was simply bursting the seams of the states. Some of these were true new agers, hippies and counterculturalists, others were kibbutz founders and so on. There is a lot of variety to 19th century utopian socialism. It was one of the main intellectual and political currents of the age and very rarely understood today.

A lot of thought leaders in these socialist and quasi-socialist movements were understandably iconoclastic, anti-tradition, anti-authority, and unsurprisingly, this favoured Jewish atheists who always felt like outsiders and to whom it made perfect sense that Europe was developing toward an "enlightened" post-national, post-state, post-everything existence. Many of them also thought Jews were natural or fated leaders in this process, because there was a STRONG current within Jewish identity that Jews were the ultimate/foremost/first Enlighteners, that the residual Christian and parochial/nationalist elements in European peoples caused them to lag behind in tradition where Jews had "nothing to lose" and naturally embraced progress and enlightenment.

Famously, Marx rebuked utopian socialists, but not to deny their general premise. He rebuked the simplicity and inevitability that they saw in its coming arrival. But he fundamentally was a man of the Enlightenment, a liberal Jew who saw a radical transformation of human sociality itself as the implied end of all current political trends. He didn't even feel the need to forecast or to prescribe exactly what would happen after the revolution because on a fundamental level he assumed it would be a true Hegelian gestalt shift of human life, as contemporary anarchists did.

Communists today have much more complicated beliefs about the coming utopia, but only at the surface, because of how many things went wrong with this plan and how ugly the 20th century is. Fundamentally they are still extremely utopian and "gnostic" (to use Voegelin's description), everything is still pinned on the "revolution or bust." Today they have assimilated many other utopian dreams and symbols too, like the (implicit or explicit) fusion of all races, the dissolution of borders, the hedonistic bohemian lifestyle of the coming race of utopian man, etc.

That is why commies are so bitter and grumpy about their "theory" but then extremely evasive when asked about practical issues like "what actually happens when/after x?"

[Anonymous No.18940016]

>>18935670
In the trash.

[Anonymous No.18940042]

>>18939723
>Hates the individual
Communism has been, and always will be just slavery to the government dole. Society declines when there's no hardship to create great individuals, and socialists seek to utilize the state to eliminate the freedom that allows such great individuals to rise. Its only dead end for you because you're weak, and pathetic, refuse to take responsibility for your own life. Someone else has to be blamed for your failures, and instead of you changing your actions that cause your problems in the first place.People like you should be shot

[Anonymous No.18940053]

>>18939541
>Read Capital
Read a book by a guy who couldn't even make Capital, yet could write so much about it. Even his parents mocked him for being a retard.
>>18939642
Communismi is nothing but hegelian sophistry. No more needs to be said.

[Anonymous No.18940084]

>>18939929
the assimilation of other utopian interests in modern leftist movements always makes me laugh. its like they've abandon any pretense of actually getting down and dirty with the working class and have transformed champagne socialism into a cohesive movement that just self destructs and is exploited by capitalists because it seeks to make things "inter sectional" by injecting a bunch of bourgeois decadence into the working class and basically destroy any chance of society achieving any sort of class unity in the process.

modern leftists seem to straight up hate the working class of white nations, they dont want to enable the working class, they want to use post modern philosophy to deconstruct the working class and mold it into some utopian champagne socialist monstrosity, which is why the white working class is now thoroughly in the hands of conservative capitalists, and in surprisingly nice but rare cases, some are now looking to national socialism for actual real tangible ways to improve the lives of the white working class instead of destroying it or cooking up grand all-or-nothing utopian communist carrot-on-a-stick fantasies

[Anonymous No.18940089]

>>18936031
>open link
>mass grave site found at old canadian building
so this how MSM calculates MUH 10 GORILLION

[Anonymous No.18940119]

>>18935697
pleasepleaseplease fucking kill your self

[Anonymous No.18940472]

Thomas Sowell - Marxism

then move onto Hayek, Mises, Rothbard & Hoppe for starters.

[Anonymous No.18941439]

this thread got ruined by a bunch of retards was hoping for some good recos
finished this a few days ago and would strongly recommend, also looking for where to go from here

[Anonymous No.18941445]

Read Marx, Kropotkin, and Goldman. That's what got me started.

[Anonymous No.18942276]

>>18935738
He was delusional enough to think he was some kind of nobility.

[Anonymous No.18942288]

>>18939541
I will never ever read a book by an American communist.

[Anonymous No.18942298]

Daily reminder "where i can learn about communism" thread are shill thread.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18942358]

>>18939274
You assume authoritarianism is all that makes people do anything. We’re not machines
I have not said “it will happen because it will”, ever.
It comes down to the numbers. It’s always a numbers game.

>>18938727
No, you explained it fine, and I responded fine.
There is no party, there is the entire population. Do a majority of them side with the new FREEING systems some of their own numbers are erecting? That’s how they’ve taken power. That’s a Revolution. Say the reactionary Reds and Whites insist there must be dictatorship and unite to stop them. They total a fraction of the population, but the grab the guns and try to unleash a hundred Kronstadt massacres
It’s a numbers game. If enough people, unarmed even, ran at these thugs they would get all their weapons from them and pound them all into mounds of red pulp

Everyone in the US is armed (but also currently stupid) the numbers pf people, the numbers of weapons, the numbers of turncoats, the numbers of braves. You ask me what the numbers are and I obviously don’t know. I just know that it’s very possible to have the REAL Revolution

[Anonymous No.18942366]

>>18942358
>We’re not machines
yet you expect people to opperate like machines, opperating according to their programming with minimum variations.

>I have not said “it will happen because it will”, ever.

youre saying it now, youre literally saying "it will happen because people will function how i say they will and it will just work out

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18942373]

>>18942366
No, I do not. Statists expect machinery. Famously they do.
> youre saying it now, youre literally saying
You’re having a brain hemorrhage, dear.

[Anonymous No.18942378]

>>18942298
Why would commies shill for Windows and Chrome instead of Linux, Firefox and GNU?

[Anonymous No.18942387]

>>18942358
wow no actual argument, of course

>its a numbers game!
>also there is no organization or structure for utilizing these numbers, millions of people will just start spontaneously operating autonomously and also in perfect synchronicity with each other, once again, without any sort of structure, and this will go on indefinitely
>this is a totally viable and tangible plan that can happen in real life

how the fuck can a person be this stupid?

[Anonymous No.18942390]

>>18935738
Damn Neetchee, that's why I love the socialists

[Anonymous No.18942397]

>>18939642
That sounds utterly retarded, why would anyone ever do this rather than just having a state?

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18942420]

>>18942387
How can you be this stupid?
Oh you’re a dippy troll with a personal grudge and a set answer no matter what I had to say.
*trombone sting*
I guess I lost for responding to you. Har har.

[Anonymous No.18942435]

Why do people reply to the retarded butterfly in the first place? Just filter it and be done with it.

[Anonymous No.18942461]

>>18942420
you lost because you have no argument, you are objectively incorrect, its not that i immediaetly dismiss what you say, its that you COMPLETELY avoid actually addressing my posts, you dance around and give non answers or deflect. you just did it AGAIN

I just proposed that variousions in individual wills and perspectives and personality make it virtually impossible for some sort of massive scale movement to begin, exist, and sustain itself, without any sort of tangible organizational structure

now you know you are wrong and have no actual argument so you will either dance around my argument, throw a few personal attacks, or simply say "people will all act that way because..because they will!" with no further argument


you can totally fucking OWN me by proving me wrong but you cant so you wont, and you are also a dishonest pseudo intellectual, so you cant admit you are wrong, so you wont do that either, and you will continue on as if this conversation never happened, as if you didnt have new information to integrate

[Anonymous No.18942462]

>>18940042
Pure idealism.
>Slavery to government dole
Except socialism is for full employment and treats jobless people as parasites unless they fit into the categories of invalid, elderly or children.
>Kills muh special individual
Excpet it doesn't. Sure, you can't play the ebin Randyan hero smol bidnez owner, but a scientist or artist? Yes, and with even better chances than under capitalism since you will have equal opprotunity and there won't be any would-be Einsteins dying while plowing the fields. Sure, there would be no profit incentive, but you must be a sociopath or a retard to think that academics are just greedy pigglets. These people do it because they like doing progress
>History is driven by muh great individuals
Literally just great man theory rubbish. You should know better.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18942469]

>18942461
>lost

IE, I was unable to explain a hypothetical scenario to him. Poor dear.

[Anonymous No.18942511]

>>18942469
just to be clear, you were specifically unable to give any sort of explanation for how your utopian ideology can viably come into being and sustain its self, you explained that there is no party and it it would be a numbers-reliant mass movement of individuals acting autonomously, but you couldn't actually explain how you could make such a mass movement happen, and be successful, and make such a movement sustain itself long term, which is extremely important because it specifically entails feeding and generally administrating millions and millions of people with their own individual wills and perspectives, priorities, personalities, all with no hierarchical structures organizing people and giving direction to those wills and keeping them on the right path

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18942540]

>>18942511
Just to be very clear, this >>18936490
Is what the requested scenario was on. How to rewrite Russian history. An interesting thought experiment, I enjoy them sometimes. But this is not the “explain how your Utopian vision can happen in every detail and don’t forget it always ends in defeat!!”.
I explained fine, and you’re not really a mental case who doesn’t understand.

[Anonymous No.18942570]

>>18942540
>I explained fine,
no you didn't, you never at any single point explained how you will direct the wills of millions of people without actually directing them

what you just posted is a bold faced LIE, you have NEVER explained that point, unless of course, you count the times you claimed "millions of wills will operate in sync without any direction because thats how people work!" which is a complete non answer, (and something youve denied saying even though you did infact say it)

[Anonymous No.18942573]

>>18936295
Incredibly underrated post

[Anonymous No.18942587]

>>18942387
>how the fuck can a person be this stupid?
It’s butterfly bro

[Anonymous No.18942598]

>>18937974
One of Smith's core principles is that wages tend to fall to bare subsistence and another is that private capital owners conspire to artificially raise prices and subvert competition in favor of essentially defrauding the public. Learning economics is literally learning the building blocks for Marx.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18942621]

>>18942570
I did explain how they would, not I and I did it more than once. You are pretending such things need dictatorial rulers.

You want me to explain how all of them, in this hypothetical scenario, would organize and defeat an enemy. Even disorganized enough people could dispatch a group of soldiers with their bare hands. I did just go over that. But anarchism is not a discarding of all hierarchies, it is a challenge to all unjustifiable ones.

But I waste my time here. You’re just a troll

[Anonymous No.18942627]

>>18942621
>I did explain how they would,
objectively incorrect, you didn't.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18942672]

>>18942627
By
Winning
The
Numbers
Game.

Statists fear the masses wising up and organizing

[Anonymous No.18942701]

>>18942672
simply stating "winning the numbers game" is completely fucking meaningless if those numbers are not actually directing their synchronized wills

simply stating "winning the numbers game" does not in any way explain how to synchronize the wills of millions of people indefinitely without actually having the authority to direct those wills

[Anonymous No.18943020]

>>18942358
Other replies aren't me.

I don't see how you've answered the question. I asked how you would prevent the coup, and you responded, or at least it seemed like it, that if enough people were were on your side then it would stop. That's not a response. It doesn't matter if you have 99% of the population on your side because I'm asking *how*, in technical terms, will you prevent it.

But I feel as if you knew that already. I think you know that the point of this is to show you that preventing the coup requires authoritarianism, and that you don't want to admit that. If I'm wrong then please show it. These scenarios are the main reason I'm a ML, so if you dismantle them then you dismantle my reason for being an ML

[Anonymous No.18943099]

>>18943020
You need to abandon the intentionalist fantasy and read more Engels and organise more union if you want to be ml. I’d suggest being a postman because I need more non sectarian comrades to build with.

[Anonymous No.18943164]

>>18943099
I don't have any internationalist fantasies. Trotsky was a completely dumbass in thinking he could export the revolution.

But that aside, being a postman sounds pretty comfy. Sadly I'm probably no where near you

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18943184]

>>18943020
You keep saying “you” and I keep correcting it. I am their Durrutti, likely never will be. It’s also quite absurd of you to say 99% of the population can’t set the mind to preventing a measly attempted coup. You imagine complete disorganization and I keep telling you it gets organized. It does this or a measly coup succeeds again.
Stopping coups doesn’t take authoritarianism, it takes willpower.

[Anonymous No.18943186]

>>18943164
>preventing the coup requires authoritarianism
I’ll take this down the pub with you to be honest. The idea of the party as an intentional agent is liberalism. We are piss in the wind.

The ten to twelve hour days are tolerable. But the pace of work is much faster than zero hour contract courier. Network hard and put class before sect. It’s a long march. Long enough to envy the dead their rest.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18943191]

>>18943020
You keep saying “you” and I keep correcting it. I am not their Durrutti, likely never will be. It’s also quite absurd of you to say 99% of the population can’t set the mind to preventing a measly attempted coup. You imagine complete disorganization and I keep telling you it gets organized. It does this or a measly coup succeeds again.
Stopping coups doesn’t take authoritarianism, it takes willpower.

[Anonymous No.18943195]

>>18936295
kek

[Anonymous No.18943201]

>>18943191
OK. It seems as if you can't answer a simple question, so it's not worth my time responding further. To be clear, I don't imagine disorganisation, rather I want to know how these people go about stopping the coup. Saying that your people outnumber the opposition isn't enough, I need details. For reference I can explain clearly, as a ML, how I would stop it. But it seems as if you can't do the same.

[Anonymous No.18943204]

>>18943186
Wait, what do you mean by "intentionalist", cause I misread that as internationalist

[Anonymous No.18943216]

>>18943191
>its absurd to say that mobilizing and directing millions of people without any sort of concrete leadership, trusting in nothing but the power of good will and friendship to work its magic and make everything happen, is not a viable plan for defeating your enemies and building a civillization

whats absurd about it?

[Anonymous No.18943217]

Marxism isn't actually about economics, or even the broader idea of oppressor and oppressed classes. That's just the propaganda. Marxism is a playbook for overthrowing an existing power structure and inserting yourself in its place. We call it Marxism nowadays out of convenience, but the playbook has been around since long before Marx.

Lenin and much of his inner circle came from fairly well off families. The guy running the Cheka was literally aristocracy. This wasn't peasants overthrowing the rulers, it was one group of elites overthrowing the ruling group of elites. Same goes for Mao, Pol Pot, Fidel. It's a pretty common theme.

[Anonymous No.18943222]

>>18943217
Only the useful idiots believe Marxism is about anti-capitalism/pro-socialism. Marxism is a strategy for replacing the elite in power with another one and concentrate all economic and political power within it, so it can perpetuate itself in that position indefinitely.

[Anonymous No.18943253]

>>18935842
>Lenin simply learned very fast that orchestrating a revolution and winning a civil war, then trying to keep up with the demands of the millions of mouths you just "liberated" and took responsibility for ... is an EXTREMELY complicated feat in its own right
Well someone had to do it.

https://marxists.architexturez.net/archive/marx/works/1853/letters/53_04_12.htm

[Anonymous No.18943256]

>>18943217
>>18943222
This is a fantasy, you guys think in cartoons. There are good critics of Marxism who actually read the works and present counter arguments. You guys don’t actually read tho so you formulate a cope to dismiss an entire school of thought. You are unserious people

[Anonymous No.18943262]

>>18943216
Butters has literally NO comprehension of the scale and complexity or logistics of dealing with these grand world-changing schemes and ideas that we are dealing with here. her retarded woman brain says "we need to accomplish x so the plan will be that people will just do x because thats what we need to do. this makes perfect sense! thats how things work!

an apt metaphor would be to say that shes like a child born into money and never taught anything important about life or the value of a dollar, so that when you say you have a problem, she says "why dont you just spend money to do fix the problem?" and genuinely doesn't understand why that ist an option for you, or you ask her how much a banana costs and she says "i dont know, $50?" because she doesn't know

like... shes just.. disconnected from the reality of the situation

[Anonymous No.18943328]

>>18937936
They are in a lot of trouble.

>>18936250
In Wang Huning's book, there's a funny part where he runs across a Trotskyist table on the street in New York (late 80s), because he notices a copy of the Communist Manifesto along with their literature (btw, it was the SWP). Of course everyone else on the street is ignoring it. And he starts talking to this Trot girl, who doesn't believe China is socialist, which disappoints him. Like, ah man, we just can't get a break. But they agreed that once China rose up to match the U.S., not even surpass it, and after a few more recessions rocked the capitalist world, then it'd be off to the races. I think about that a lot.

>>18936645
Thing is, fascists see a certain kind of mixed system (never well defined anyways) as the end state. But the reforms under Deng Xiaoping were always intended to be transitionary and temporary. That's one difference. Thing is, people here think 30-40 years is a long time. They have thousands of years of history over there and I think the culture thinks about historical time in a different way.

Mao even told Kissinger that he didn't even want Taiwan because there are too many reactionaries there so it'd be better to wait a century, so the U.S. could keep it, and then after enough time had passed, they could settle it between them. But they are going to settle it. I think the mentality is a little different. American politicians think about the next election, and capitalists think about the next quarter.

>>18940084
Well I dunno. I think Western socialists have a lot of confused ideas at the moment, but the American working class will be majority non-white pretty soon. This decade since the boomer population is about to fall of a cliff. White master race ideology will meet resistance. And on the other hand, I don't think the conditions of today are anything like Weimar Germany. People are much more atomized, so even an attempt to create some white-race socialism runs into the problem that there aren't enormous housing projects full of white working-class men who get to work on foot or trolley-car (like in 1920s Germany) in the U.S.

Or Proud Boys? Antifa? It's absolutely nothing like the 1920s. Political violence then was on a completely different scale and it was deadly and it was real. They were just coming out of World War I which absolutely shattered their whole fucking world. But communists in Western countries have similar problems organizing people. The best move communists could probably make is to all get jobs at Amazon.

>>18943217
>Marxism is a playbook for overthrowing an existing power structure and inserting yourself in its place.
Stop. You're gonna make it sound attractive...

[Anonymous No.18943386]

>>18943262
She’s not someone interested in literature. All she’s read are a few anarchist books she uses to confirm her childish punk sentiments. Political theory is to her an aesthetic when it should be a rigorous and pragmatic analysis of government. That means developing a sincere understanding of as much political theory as one can and determining what works and what doesn’t. Butters can’t do this because it’s too hard and she’s more interested in squealing about “statists” online. The result of these arguments, which she’s had countless times, is the reinforcement of her very limited worldview (again contained to a handful of anarchist books.) Also remember she’s old, firmly entrenched in this larp, so the prospect of having to seriously reconsider the fundamental axioms of her worldview is scary, easier to dismiss critiques on account of trite inconsistencies than provide a holistic refutation. Tldr: she just isn’t very smart.

Thank you for reading this psychological profile

[Anonymous No.18943405]

>>18943328
When replying to >>18940084 I think you're making the mistake of assuming that he wants his white state to encompass the current United States, rather than the (more likely) break up of it.

[Anonymous No.18943482]

>>18937936
Oh, I thought about this some more. It's kind of interesting to think about American conservative boomer depictions of the Soviets during the Cold War. Every one of those guys read Tom Clancy or watched the movie with Sean Connery playing the Soviet submarine captain. I read those novels and I'm not even a boomer. And Clancy could be condescending to Russians, but Capt. Ramius is the coolest guy in the movie -- he has his shit together more than anyone else. Clancy was a die-hard Ronald Reagan supporter and Cold Warrior.

Sure, the Soviet captain is defecting and strangles the commissar just after leaving port. But there was this belief that the USSR had serious people in the system. But can you see them writing fiction depicting a Chinese captain like Ramius? They probably have some. Maybe eventually, and some have an admiration for Xi. But the idea that they're all "insects" and bug people though is pretty common. You see it here all the time.

Tom Clancy later wrote a book called "The Bear and the Dragon" when post-communist (based) Russia teams up with the U.S. against (bugman) China. And the depictions of the Chinese are just flat-out racist and the characters call them "Klingons," "subhumans," "goddamn chinks," "barbarians" and "fucking yellow monsters." Except for the women though, who are just sex objects who want big sausage.

On the contrary, I've found Chinese students I've met to be very smart and worldly and pretty cosmopolitan in fact. The West is feeling more "provincial" nowadays. The future that is arriving is going to come as a real shock. It's also sometimes funny to read some Western commentary about the PLA and being befuddled and unimpressed by the presence of political commissars throughout the military. They spend a bunch of their time studying Mao Zedong Thought? Huh? None of this has any relevance today! And they're singing songs together? It seems so backwards and "not how we do things anymore." But they don't understand the purpose of it which is uniting politics and war like Clausewitz and Lenin and Mao told them to do.

https://youtu.be/75c6x5che8Y

And as far as the Clancy scenarios...

https://youtu.be/_4NXoFHO6QE

So I think the future that's coming is going to be a shock to some people. It's not people here really, but all these Qboomers and libs who are out there.

[Anonymous No.18943495]

>>18943405
Sure. Whatever. But that doesn't mean other Americans are going to let that happen.

There are a lot of people in Catalonia who want to break away from Spain, but people in Madrid have a say, a vote, and there is power behind that. Taiwan is a de facto independent state from mainland China, but even if most people in Taiwan want to declare independence, the majority of people on the mainland don't agree, because they see Taiwan as not any different from how Spaniards in Madrid see Catalonia.

And they have a say too.

So what is this anon going to do? Try to break Idaho away from the United States? How? Everyone knows the answer: That will be decided by force, and that's not a war he's guaranteed to win. And what would be the outcome of him losing that war? Well I'm not Nostradamus, but it's something to think about.

[Anonymous No.18943499]

>>18943495
what ties does taiwan even have to mainland china? does the Taiwanese government even answer to the Chinese government in any capacity beyond walking on thin ice around them?

[Anonymous No.18943530]

>>18943495
>Sure. Whatever. But that doesn't mean other Americans are going to let that happen.
In this situation America, the state, would be so decrepit and weakened by maintaining it's grip on hegemony that it could no longer muster the strength to do so anon, since under my (can't speak for him) conception of the reality of the situation is that the white man makes up the backbone of America, without which it slowly decays, and that mass importing compliant thirdworlders isn't going to change that, it just puts more of a burden on the aforementioned when said thirdworlders regress to the mean (if they immigrated legally) or drop the average (illegally/refugees/etc)

To answer your question is simply that "Americans" at that point won't be able to jack and shit. They won't be able to maintain their systems of control.

>That will be decided by force, and that's not a war he's guaranteed to win.
The moment the US needs to use its own military in order to keep the citizens in line is the moment the situation completely breaks down anon.
>Whiskey Rebellion
Do you know why that situation didn't completely breakdown? Everyone on the victorious side was incredibly lenient. What on earth makes you think a populace hyped up on ideological garbage like CRT is going to treat rebellious white people with any sort of leniency.

[Anonymous No.18943576]

>>18935884
Spend some time interacting with actual Chinese teenagers. It's kinda hilarious how similar they are to American or South Korean teens these days. Equally liberal in mindset, they just defend their government from foreign criticism for the same reason Americans defend their country whenever foreigners talk shit, but amongst themselves it's just complaining about old people

[Anonymous No.18943595]

>>18935955
China has a literal millionaire and billionaire aristocracy who commit fraud on the Gaokao who steal University admissions from deserving students and give it to their kids. China simps have a very odd romanticized view of what is essentially just an authoritarian government managed by corrupt apparatchiks who are just good enough to keep the train running for the world to see.

[Anonymous No.18943598]

>>18935973
>and developed health and welfare for its citizens better than any in the world
It's at best "better than other Latin Americans", but absolutely nowhere near comparable to first world countries like Sweden, Germany, or Spain. Cuban doctors aren't even qualified to operate modern medical equipment, they're the Chevrolet Onyx of doctors, a cheap solution but far from being the best.

[Anonymous No.18943603]

>>18943499
I think that's pretty much the extent of it. But I'm sure there are lots of "unofficial" contacts by "private" parties.

>>18943530
>To answer your question is simply that "Americans" at that point won't be able to jack and shit. They won't be able to maintain their systems of control.
This is a fun conversation and we're getting off the topic a bit. But I think people like that have a static and one-sided worldview. Or they don't understand that conflict can be a basis for change and renewal. The U.S. had a civil war and it broke in half, and the Confederates made a serious attempt to create a new state (with... ports), but the war itself created a new "United States" out of it -- it created unity on a different basis than what had existed before. That developed over the course of the war.

I think it just comes back to politics. I know some of my right-wing friends are hyped up on the Taliban because they exhausted the U.S. after 20 years (in a country that is mostly rural). But the U.S. occupation of the country long ceased to make any "political" sense. What was the U.S. actually fighting for? But if people are talking about breaking up the United States, that's a totally different ballgame. The U.S. system when the war begins breaks down, but to win the war requires a kind of political "revolution" (so to speak) within "the United States" that transforms it into a revolutionary war that reunites the United States on a different basis.

>What on earth makes you think a populace hyped up on ideological garbage like CRT is going to treat rebellious white people with any sort of leniency.
https://youtu.be/GPII9cfFe34

[Anonymous No.18943616]

>>18935991
>Also, they don't give a shit about made up problems like childish Westerns, fuck your gender diseases, we have people to feed.
Spoken like a true /pol/tard who is desperate for any "based" sugar daddy state to exist.
China's society has just as many fixations on social problems like gays or generational divides as any other society. I swear to god you fucks have literally never spoken to Chinese students either in China itself or abroad. The language barrier is the sole reason why you never hear about Chinese attitudes towards cultural behaviors.

[Anonymous No.18943624]

>>18936044
>You can't deny that Cuba is doing pretty good compared to it's neighbours in the Caribbean though.
Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, and Panama dont need to make emigration illegal.

[Anonymous No.18943637]

>>18936105
>probably the first country ever to become a developed country without colonizing others or receiving massive aids from external powers.
Okay so Finland receiving foreign investment is somehow assistance from foreign powers but China receiving investment from abroad isn't?

[Anonymous No.18943649]

>>18936243
>In China poverty is dropping, the middle class is expanding, homeownership is growing, etc.
Wow, all things that were achieved in literally any third world country with a growing GDP? Taiwan, South Korea, Malaysia, Chile, etc. All saw the same thing happen. Hell, all of Europe saw the same phenomenon happen after WW2. This really is not exceptional.

[Anonymous No.18943664]

>>18943603
>that transforms it into a revolutionary war that reunites the United States on a different basis.
And this is where you keep getting hung up.

There won't be a re-unification. The cultural, political, racial, your pick, ties that united the states will have been so thoroughly broken down that there is nothing that could possibly unite them, besides geographic proximity. That's it. There would be no other unifying force between them aside from a tyrannical government demanding compliance under threat of violence. What happens when the latter completely breaks down and becomes ineffectual? Hopefully a Yugoslavian type situation, this time fueled not by American meddling, but from virtually every country both in and out of their spheres of influence.

I'm going to stop here, as you said, because this is off-topic now.

[Anonymous No.18943666]

>>18943649
i bet you anything that anon is from the tankie/china worship general on /leftypol/

[Anonymous No.18943761]

>>18943616
Pretty much. I think people like to selectively pluck things out and then use that as a "win" in their culture war business. So the Chinese internet jannies kick some LGBT groups off Weibo or censor some Western movies with too much manlove, and for /poltards/ that means China is going to slaughter globohomo any second... while they're quietly rolling out anti-discrimination laws and sending Chinese transgender Oprah to the World Economic Forum to be their global LGBT ambassador (and also voting "yes" at the United Nations on pro-LGBT stuff). But for those guys, that doesn't matter, because the appearance that you're winning is all that matters.

The political system there is different, too. The government is run by boomers, and they're conservative in some ways, but I think they're always trying to "balance" different interests or find some kind of "harmony" between different interests, so nobody gets everything they want -- which gives everyone something to grouch about -- but most people get something out of it, too. And that creates a kind of order. It's a single-party state. In the U.S., by contrast, Trump was concentrated boomer rage which contributed to setting off a concentrated youth-rage revolt, which is the last fucking thing the boomers in the Chinese government want to see happen, because they have enough problems to deal with as it is. They have all the same debates and generational differences (with some specific cultural characteristics like anti-Japanese sentiment among the elderly... while the youth are all watching anime), but it doesn't seem as intense because it's not being weaponized so much by the political elites.

You'll also see it in how Xi is depicted. The leaders are always depicted this way. His face is not too expressive, but not unexpressive, either. They're trying to balance his appearance. It's like yin-yang man, dialectics! Or something.

It was also funny, the Uyghur genocide story has broken down, so I read another article in the U.S. press by some dipwad saying that China is actually genociding minorities by "recognizing them into oblivion" by promoting their language rights and identities as a way of creating unity with the Chinese state, because they're guided by Marxism and see these ethnic divisions as temporal phenomena so they'll just be assimilated into the ChiCom borg hive eventually.

[Anonymous No.18943807]

>>18938045
>>18942598
That was exactly my point, retards. OP won't understand shit if he just start with Das Kapital.
>>18938661
>NOOO don't learn economics, bro! You may run into critics of marx and you run the risk of agreeing with them!!!

[Anonymous No.18943891]

>>18943256
You are unintelligent.

[Anonymous No.18943908]

>>18943616
>>18943761
Just saying that while the Chinese government is worried about getting people houses, jobs, into school, the Westerners leftists are worried about non-problems like identity politics, while the working class conditions just get worse by the day.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18944293]

>>18943201
>OK, just to confirm, I am too retarded to understand
> I don't imagine disorganisation, rather I want to know how these people go about stopping the coup
You’ll have to ask them. They’d probably ask you to lay out EXACTLY how this statist coup was going to happen
>I need details
And you gave none.

>>18943216
It needs no centralized command. It need only guerrilla tactics and sheer numbers. Even if the numbers are weak the goals are enough to inspire

>>18943262
I have nothing to go on. The scenario was set in the past. I was honest but your collective brains have zero imagination power to comprehend. Or you’re just trolling for Yous

I wasn’t born into money at all. You shitlibs keep projecting this at me (I think I know why). I work hard and live below my means and I still have a questionable future in the most prosperous nation in the world.

>>18943386
Gif for all three

[Anonymous No.18944322]

>>18941439
>quotes from regan and ben carson
into the trash it goes

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18944771]

[Anonymous No.18945165]

>>18943908
Sounds like it's time for revolution.

[Anonymous No.18945178]

>>18935736
>groomed a 17 year
holy based, I'm becoming a commie.

[Anonymous No.18945206]

Leftism does not work.

Capitalism works.

It's that simple.

[Anonymous No.18945279]

>>18935697
oh you're a /lit/ guy now tablefly?

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18945384]

>>18945178
Exiled to Siberia, they hooked him up with a wife, but he broke out by way of Asia, Pacific, US train lines to get to the UK

>>18945206
You
Aren’t
Very
Observant
Simpleton.

>>18945279
Tablefly? Is he posting in s4s again?

[Anonymous No.18945526]

>>18945384
Name one, just one successful leftist counry.

[Anonymous No.18945541]

>>18945526
mussolini was a syndicalist and his trains were great.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18945564]

>>18945541
>the government had running trains
Anarcho-syndicalist trains in Barcelona ran on time too. Zero tyrants.

>>18945526
You. Book.

[Anonymous No.18945662]

>>18935670
Fiction section
(Overused joke, but as a commie I find it funny)

Or

Das Kapital, if u ask me. Socialism Utopian and Scientific, Critique of the GP, Communist Manifesto, Women Race & Class

Anarchism: Conquest of Bread, Mutual Aid, Anarchism Works

ML: State and Rev, What Needs to be Done, Combating Liberalism, anything about the BPP

[Anonymous No.18945681]

>>18944771
cringe

[Anonymous No.18945798]

>>18945564
>anarcho-government
again, this is why mussolini was my favorite syndicalist. he was consistent with his beliefs.

[Anonymous No.18945854]

>>18943482
Yea all these people who dismiss the Chinese as bugs with no culture I just don’t understand. Cold War propaganda runs deep I guess. Their literature tradition is rich and their politics are very in line with what many trad types want out of government. Curtis calls himself Mencius Moldbug for a reason

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18945867]

>>18945681
>bootlicker
Krin-gē

>>18945798
He went with Sovietist state-socialism. Syndicalism is a worker operation. As illustrated here >>18944771
he soured on anarchism, he LEFT it for a rebranding (a notorious liberal tactic). He was the OPPOSITE of consistent and anarchist. Stop pushing this footballer head injury interpretation.

[Anonymous No.18945901]

>>18945854
Novel idea: a Chinese version of Hunt for Red October where an American submarine captain defects to the Chinese.

[Anonymous No.18945910]

>>18943649
The exceptional part is that China is far bigger than all those countries

[Anonymous No.18945936]

>>18945178
He was an anarchist

[Anonymous No.18945944]

>>18945526
china

[Anonymous No.18945978]

>>18943649
China is doing that without ever receiving massive amounts of aid, without colonizing or being colonized by other countries, and without becoming a tax haven. If they keep being successful in the next decades, it will be the first country in history to become developed by itself.

[Anonymous No.18946035]

>>18944293
> And you gave none.

Holy shit that's embarrassing. As someone who criticises tankies and the bolshevik revolution I'd expect you to know about the event that set them on the path to power. You could even look at the wiki page if you wanted to. But it seems as if historical analysis is too difficult for you, makes sense really-history tends to be in the side of "tankies"

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18946188]

>>18946035
>Holy shit that's embarrassing
You should be.

> historical analysis
This wasn’t a historical analysis, it was a battle simulator you wanted me to run and will only accept a bad result. Now you’re still whining that I understand all this more

[Anonymous No.18946237]

>>18945541
>>18945564
And Pinochet made the helicopters run on time for you both.

[Anonymous No.18946241]

>>18945978
exactly

[Anonymous No.18946252]

>>18946035
>Boleshvik revolution
It wasn't even a revolution; it was a coup. The Bolsheviks never had popular support - they held power through banning opposition parties and the terror of their secret police.

[Anonymous No.18946258]

>>18945978
lol china is mass exploiting africa and is moving into europe you gullible tool

[Anonymous No.18946259]

>>18935670

[Anonymous No.18946264]

>>18946252
nietzsche is such a lib lmao

[Anonymous No.18946270]

>>18946264
muh libs
Nobody cares nigger

[Anonymous No.18946272]

>>18946259

[Anonymous No.18946281]

Was Lenin evil?

[Anonymous No.18946283]

>>18946259
>>18946272
Ewwww

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18946288]

>>18946258
Their exploitation is in Chinese characters and, barring their pandemic, far preferable to the rabid dog that the US has been

[Anonymous No.18946302]

>>18946283
>bourgeois rationalization

[Anonymous No.18946314]

>>18946302
>reality is bourgeois!
Take your meds

[Anonymous No.18946333]

>>18946258
Chinese investment in Africa has been greatly beneficial for them https://mobile.twitter.com/gyude_moore/status/1290986894755532801

[Anonymous No.18946338]

>>18946333
So was colonialism by the west

[Anonymous No.18946339]

>>18946333
>Defending debt trap diplomacy
Fucking chink

[Anonymous No.18946341]

>>18946258
Their dealings in Africa have only enriched African countries. Western media is butthurt because they never used any kind of military force there to exploit them, as Europeans did before and even Americans and Soviets did during the cold war.
European countries are big boys, if they can't handle business and get fucked in the ass, that's their fault. China isn't, and couldn't be, using violence against them. Meanwhile, past empires literally colonized now undeveloped countries (including China) and took the resources they needed by force.

[Anonymous No.18946343]

>>18946314
never said anything about reality, also
>when u scratch a liberal

[Anonymous No.18946344]

>>18946338
>>18946339
Actually read what I posted

[Anonymous No.18946355]

>>18946339
"debt trap" is much preferable to mass starvation and violence at the hands of europe

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!bGBGaUpA8kS No.18946402]

New thread, if you want

>>18946395

[Anonymous No.18946438]

>>18946344
No, it's Twitter link, why the fuck would I want to open Twitter?

[Anonymous No.18946885]

>>18935973
>developed health and welfare for its citizens better than any in the world

this is your brain on communism

[Anonymous No.18946988]

Reminder that no one despises the working class more than Marxists and jews.

Like homosexuality and transgenderism, modern Marxism is an exclusively bourgeois ideology.

[Anonymous No.18947076]

>>18946333
did this faggot really use twitter as a source?

[Anonymous No.18947427]

>>18944771
based butterfly (god help me for saying this)

[Anonymous No.18947438]

>>18936507
I mean, the National Socialist party in Germany took a beaten, broken, bankrupt country and turned it into the worker's envy of the world and became the most prolific war machine in history. Economically, national socialism is undeniably successful.