/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.18777868]

Why is there a stigma surrounding the fantasy genre?

[Anonymous No.18777873]

Dunno, people are weird about fairies and are ok with Jews in sticks.

[soursore !!5HEGfvI0zIR No.18777884]

>>18777868
It's YA.

[Anonymous No.18777891]

>>18777868
Tom Bombadil a fag
George RR Martin a sweaty pervy lazy fat piece of shit

[Anonymous No.18777899]

>>18777884
This. Most books and themes are aimed at teenagers

[Anonymous No.18777916]

>>18777868
Long story short? Hoes mad. This applies to /lit/ as well. The average poster is very feminine, and only reads works for the purpose of impressing others.

[Anonymous No.18777928]

>>18777916
Sick artwork. who is the artist?

[Anonymous No.18777938]

>>18777868
Stigma? Stigma dick in your mom haha

[Anonymous No.18777939]

>>18777916
Somewhat this, the male reader archetype would ideally read to smash other anons with an axe. And get to Valhala.

[Anonymous No.18777946]

>>18777928
Frank Fazetta. Did a lot of art for Conan and other Sword and Sorcery stuff. Speaking of Conan, here’s Road of Kings, a Conan poem I enjoy

Gleaming shell of an outworn lie; fable of Right divine-
You gained your crowns by heritage, but Blood was the price of mine.
The throne that I won by blood and sweat, by Crom, I will not sell
For promise of valleys filled with gold, or threat of the Halls of Hell!

When I was a fighting-man, the kettle-drums they beat,
The people scattered gold-dust before my horse's feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.

What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie?
I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky.
The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king!

[Anonymous No.18777965]

>>18777868
Hoes mad basically, but also it has a history of being deeply midwit when stops trying to be just entertainment. Malazan Book of the Fallen has excellent and realistic (for the setting) worldbuilding but utterly midwit themes and moralizing. The Second Apocalypse is somewhat better even if it is taking subtle shots at Christianity for a lot of it, but the author at least seems to understand that his parody picture of Christianity is significantly different from the reality.

[Anonymous No.18777966]

>>18777946

[Anonymous No.18777975]

>>18777966

[Anonymous No.18777984]

>>18777975

[Anonymous No.18777989]

>>18777984

[Anonymous No.18778010]

white male power fantasy
also nostalgia for the middle ages (the white patriarchy)
Fantasy is fine as long as most main characters are women and people of colour otherwise it is reactionary

[Anonymous No.18778018]

>>18778010
b8

[Anonymous No.18778030]

>>18777884
SPBP

[Anonymous No.18778049]

>>18778018
As a trans person of color, I can tell you that it is not

[Anonymous No.18778058]

>>18778049
based, speak your truth queen

[Anonymous No.18778297]

>>18777946
>Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king!
Fucking based. I miss when fantasy could unashamedly be hyper-masculine. A poem like that would now get denigrated as edgy.

[Anonymous No.18778348]

>>18777868
My primary issue is the almost infant-like reliance on Tolkien's work. Fantasy always has to have elves, dwarves, etc. It really says something when a fantasy writer is considered innovative for making an elf fat or a dwarf slant-eyed.
Ironically, despite the reliance on Tolkien's foundation, most fantasy writers focus too much on the irrelevant aspects of worldbuilding. Like the magic system meme.

[Anonymous No.18778353]

>>18777899
>>18777884
What if I want to write YA though?

[Anonymous No.18778356]

>>18777916
girls love fantasy you fucking sperg. lmao at you thinking fantasy genre isnt nothing but women and incels gathering round the firepit to hear scawee stories with heroes and maidens

[Anonymous No.18778358]

>>18778348
Pretty much this. I also think a big part is on the consumer base though. Everyone loved to see their heckin elves and other generic fantasy shit

[Anonymous No.18778366]

>>18778356
Your typing style outs you as a dunce. I would work on that

[Anonymous No.18778979]

>>18777868
i stigma fantasy books on my shelf after enjoying them

[Anonymous No.18779089]

>>18777884
>>18777899
Not all though, that's just elitism. There's quite a few novels within that fantasy "genre" (which are only labeled as such because they're not 100% grounded in the here-and-now) which are not accepted as such because of literary fags

[Anonymous No.18779155]

>>18777868
>>18777884
>>18777899
Shakespeare wrote fantasy novels. Macbeth has witches. Hamlet has a ghost.

[Anonymous No.18779165]

>>18779155
>fantasy novels
anachronism

[Anonymous No.18779194]

>>18777868
A big craze in the 70s and 80s produced a deluge of low-quality books (The Logorrhea of Shannara, the Wheel of Tedium, Piers Anthony's Big Book of Ephebophilia), whose impact still lingers. Plus the association with tabletop gamers, Ren Faire attendees, and other undesirables.

[Anonymous No.18779198]

>>18779194
>wheel of tedium
KEK
still one of the biggest disappointments of my teen years. It had such promise and then instantly pissed it ALL away

[Anonymous No.18779199]

>>18779165
>I-it's grandfathered in!
I hate literary queers so much

[Pulp Anon !58ogPO8UqQ No.18779200]

>>18777868
It's pulp.

[Anonymous No.18779261]

>>18777975
Bros, should I get into the death dealer books? I like the character from Frazetta's paintings but are the novels a good read?

[Anonymous No.18779315]

>>18779199
I hate logical niggers so much

[Anonymous No.18780057]

>>18777868
Fantasy is only good when it's used symbolically. LOTR was made by a feverishly Christian man. Dune carried Herbert's boner for psychedelic new-age shit. And so on. And the older works, the epics, etc. were far more charged with mysticism.
If you make fantasy to express "wonder" or to show the "adventure" it's going to be hollow pulp shit. 100% of fantasy produced today has no layer of symbolism whatsoever, the elves are literal elves, the dragon is a literal dragon, the magical ring is a magical ring.

[Anonymous No.18780066]

Pretty much died with Tolkien because nobody could compete with his life as a Philological autist. Or have their work critiqued by their Oxford buddies in a time before universities were utter shit. Or also have the conscientiousness to spend like 15 years on one book, rewriting large sections just because.

Wouldn't have done even half the reading either that Tolkien used as the bedding for his work.

Even the people who got into his work at the time were generally retarded and couldn't see the forest for the trees, outside of a few. Bless them.

GRRM is disgusting and Jordan died. Both made their stories and worlds far too big.

I'm sure there's plenty of good stuff that doesn't reach the mainstream though. Sub genres of sub genres don't help either.

[Anonymous No.18780089]

>>18777868
It all comes down to WHY you read in the first place. Being entertained for its own sake is fine and you don't have to pretend you're being DEEP about it or something.

[Anonymous No.18780102]

Typically written for children and is often detached from real problems your typical man would actually face. People who read fantasy are either women (group A), children (group B), or weak men who like to live vicariously through characters that they can imagine themselves as being (group C) (note that I could have just said 'children' for all three groups, but they are different types of children).

Let's take LOTR as the peak of fantasy /lit/

>Main character, Frodo, is a pathetic beta who, only through extreme circumstance and luck, manages to be something other than a bug (Appeal to Group C)

>Eragon or however it's spelt, is a handsome, sensitive, caring character, who faces the moral quandary of "duhhh should I bang this hot chick or let her know she's making a mistake", and ultimately makes the "correct" choice (Appeal to Group A)

>Mythical fantasy world that is unlike our own, where magic and fantasy and wizards and stuff exist (Appeal to group B)

>Super cool badass war with lots of cool violence and fighting and death (Arguably the only redeeming quality in the book)

[Anonymous No.18780141]

>>18780102
why do you type this lazy drivel? you should unironically have your hands and tongue chopped off for this shit of a post
retarded 12 year old mongoloid

[Anonymous No.18780182]

>>18780141
Can you refute the post or are you going to make baseless attacks against me? Pick one, roast.

[Anonymous No.18780188]

>>18780182
I refute it by saying you're a stupid fucking retard. You made no argument whatsoever and you worded your post like shit. Type something structured that doesn't read like you take a shit on the keyboard and I'll engage you. For the time being just kill yourself.

[Anonymous No.18780195]

Have you ever read stack exchange "world building"? It's a place where 99% of the users are obsessed with the logical consistency of their fantasy worlds, somewhat ironically it came up in my feeds under "writing help" when there is actually 0% prose-writing involved; they all just go "how much strength should casting this spell realistically require" or "how would 8/9th of gravity affect a sea of acid".

My point is that fantasy is mostly written by nerds. Tolkien was a very specific sort of nerd (linguistics and mythology), but most of his readers are the STEM sort who rate Marvel universe above anything. They just simply can't write well, and even worse, they consider it something trivial compared to their elaborate schemes. I recently read some rant about how there's no money in world-building "anymore" since publishers are clueless etc, like wtf? Write well and you'll be desired.

[Anonymous No.18780217]

>>18780066
Tolkien sucks though

[Anonymous No.18780241]

>>18778356
Women read books with videogame tier world building and stereotypical characters. What you would call "fantasy" doesnt follow these conditions, hence it's more male oriented.
A good example for this is the witcher saga. The book is male oriented, the tv series is very female oriented.

[Anonymous No.18780254]

>>18780195
This is how people do fantasy world-building now and I hate it. They really believe the point of world-building is to create a believable tax policy for the kingdom. It's the most dry and awful thing imaginable.
Why the fuck would you write fantasy if you're not driven by mysticism? Just write uchronian or historical fiction, no? They won't do that because they know they'd have nothing to write about once the hollow masturbatory world-building is done.
The issue with modern fantasy is that it's written by spiritually empty people.

[Anonymous No.18780264]

>>18777868
terrible themes
terrible prose
soulless entertainment
no innovation

[Anonymous No.18780298]

>>18780217
What have you actually read of his anon?

[Anonymous No.18780384]

>>18777946
>>18778979
Based

>>18780102
The worst opinion I've read in some time. Will never make it.

>>18777928
Frazetta is great, you should look up his artwork if you like sword and sorcery

>>18778010
I agree with the first two lines, idk about the third. The cast can be really diverse and multicultural and STILL be reactionary as fuck.

>>18780195
>>18780254
Yeah, it's terrible. I think this is also because of the desire to make good worlds for an RPG adventure, and this I can get behind.

[Anonymous No.18780453]

>>18780217
I second this. He's the original fantasy neckbeard who spent most of his life worldbuilding rather than practicing the craft of writing. Literally your average /r/worldbuilding user who lucked out.

[Anonymous No.18780496]

>>18777884
Read Wolfe
Read Abercrombie

[Anonymous No.18780499]

>>18777989
Based Fire and Ice poster

[Anonymous No.18780501]

>>18780384
>I think this is also because of the desire to make good worlds for an RPG adventure
I don't believe RPGs or say video games necessarily imply this dry realistic consistency. It's easy to say D&D ruined fantasy but the mindset issue has more to do with the general moral and spiritual bankruptcy of our time. There needs to be a layer of divinity over fantasy, and even further, art in general. The only disciminating factor I can objectively see in true art versus mere entertainment is that true art is mystical.

[Anonymous No.18780640]

>>18780453
Another one who knows absolutely fuck all. kys

[Anonymous No.18780648]

>>18777868
Because most "new" writers either go into fantasy or YA (often both), meaning that most fantasy books are pretty shit.

[Anonymous No.18781301]

>>18778353
Then it's a fine genre for that
>>18779089
Of course not ALL. But 99% is midwit and that's why it gets the stigma
>>18779155
lol

[Anonymous No.18781311]

>>18780496
I've only read the First Law Trilogy but it was 100% YA. You're right about Wolfe.

[Anonymous No.18781408]

>>18780298
Tried lotr fellowship and return of the king. Bored me to tears. DNF

[Anonymous No.18781744]

>>18780501
Funny enough, the elder scrolls, in particular morrowind, probably has better and more innovative fantasy than most of the schlock that gets published now

[Anonymous No.18782157]

>>18777868
Cause the books are bad.

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.18782239]

Partly justified partly unjustified, it’s considered childish and there’s the problem of it having the genre label, neither of these are actually bad things. The actual problem with contemporary fantasy is that it’s incestuous, bred from Tolkien and filtered by a dozen pop writers who produce book after book of schlock.

Even so, the origins of fantasy (the fairy way of writing being its older name) is full of merit, containing names like Spenser and Dryden but arguably going back to mythology and ancient poetry like that of Ovid. I will argue that the father of the genre (Dunsany) has one of the best English prose styles period, and his content is so full of decadence, innocence and ethereality, and who wouldn’t consider Lewis Carroll worthwhile? The popular man, Tolkien, is obviously a man of worth to study, see his translations and scholarly work for proof.

I believe fantasy has some of the highest potential for beauty and for Raw imaginative power, even if that’s obscured by much of the popular contemporary fantasy being YA and incestual.

[Anonymous No.18783553]

>>18780188
Ok, keep enjoying your children's books.

[Anonymous No.18783673]

Fantasy can be great. It is dominated by YA at the moment however. My sister used to love reading it when she was a teenager.

if you want some based fantasy read Sir Gawain and the Green Knight

[Anonymous No.18784093]

>>18782239
what Dunsany books would you recommend?

[Anonymous No.18784574]

>>18779155
Based Shakespeare-was-a-novelist poster.

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.18785410]

>>18784093
Gods of pegana, gods and time, book of wonder, but really I love everything he wrote. These three are your best intro though.

[Anonymous No.18785536]

Plan on reading the lord of the rings trilogy good.

Is it as good as the movies?

[Anonymous No.18785576]

>>18778049
Imagine being a colored person lmao
I'd rather shootmyself desu

[Anonymous No.18785585]

>>18780217
>t. Smoothebrain retard

[Anonymous No.18785610]

>>18777884
>Malazan Book of the Fallen enters the chat

[Anonymous No.18785622]

>>18785610
Seriously not helping your case. The worldbuilding is fantastic granted, but the moralizing is absolute 3rd grade shit

[Anonymous No.18785654]

>>18785585
>>t.smoothbrain retard

[Anonymous No.18785708]

>>18780496
Abercrombie is totally YA even if it's grimfart.

[Anonymous No.18786351]

>>18781408
Give Children of Hurin a try if you ever feel like going again.

[Anonymous No.18786355]

>>18777868
>>18778979
stigma balls

[Anonymous No.18786436]

>>18777868
>>18777884
So what? There's no stigmata these days.

[Anonymous No.18786535]

>>18780102
you write like a mongoloid. please read the book before you criticize it or better yet dont write at all

[Anonymous No.18786538]

>>18777884
nice bait

[Anonymous No.18786544]

>>18781744
and if you get too much into it you will see thats its just weird for the sake of being weird. the only good video game that could be a good fantasy book is legacy of kain and its story is convulted even further which tells a lot about games

[Anonymous No.18786959]

>>18785410
thanks anon

[Anonymous No.18786970]

>>18779200
>pulp
i really hope you americans don't do this

[Anonymous No.18787135]

>>18782239
If the genre stands a chance at a breakaway from all of these points - which I fully agree with, how is it going to look?

And before people will start talking complexity, keep in mind that 'regression to the mean' is a way of life in our current capitalist profit-based economy. Publishers fear experimentation, unless it is backed by the powers that be to propagate the 'dominant narrative', which inevitably leads content to be aimed at the lowest but most numerious target groups - who don't know the difference between good and bad works.

I'd say that fantasy is at its strongest when there are no quests to save the world, no magical systems and no RPG-DND elements. But at that point you're essentially removing 90% of current market.

[Anonymous No.18787524]

>>18780217
He's the only good fantasy author

[Anonymous No.18787537]

>>18778366
Seethe
>>18780241
Good answer. Thanks

[Anonymous No.18787556]

>>18787524
Gene Wolfe is so much better it hurts.
>inb4 muh science fantasy not real fantasy

[Anonymous No.18787560]

>>18786970
>>pulp
>i really hope you americans don't do this
you know in england we call it "juicy bits"

[Anonymous No.18787573]

>>18786351
Second this

[Anonymous No.18787578]

>>18780217
I wouldn't say he sucks, more that for some he is a huge bore to read.