/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.18741248]

>can read and expound buddhist sutras and philosophical works like a champ
>can't sit in meditation for more than 30 minutes without overwhelming mental distraction from physical pain/discomfort forcing me out.

any other buddhistbros have this discrepancy?

i suppose i'll have to escape suffering next life huh?

[Anonymous No.18741252]

>>18741248
Buddhism is the shit that Hinduism flushed down the toilet apparently to "him"(pbuh) read hinduism instead

[Anonymous No.18741259]

>>18741252
Without launching into a debate as to how hinduism is 100% wrong (it is)

the same problem exists in hinduism. hard to do your dhyan on bhagwan if your feet going numb and your legs feel strain and your mind can't handle it.

[Anonymous No.18741264]

>>18741248
No. I just started skimming the pragmatic dharma shit once I accidently started jhanaing. I find it tedious to read about when you can just go do it.

[Anonymous No.18741269]

>>18741264
i find it easier to read than to go and do - but unfortunately it's quite clear in the sutras that studying them to death but not being proficient in meditation isn't going to resolve sufering.

That said reading the sutras has massively improved my meditation and general life. i understand what is going on a lot more and don't get perturbed so much by anything. i don't even believe in the future or past anymore or myself. i know everything i love is going to be taken from me. i know the fruits of karma. etc.

[Anonymous No.18741278]

White people aren't built for indolence. of course pajeets in the sweltering heat can sit about doing nothing and thinking nothing for hours on end, just as dopey mexicans can spend the whole afternoon asleep on the back of a mule, but some of us have better stuff to do.

Confucius says:
I’ve spent days without food and nights without sleep
hoping to purify thought and clarify mind
but it’s never done much good
such practices – they’re nothing like devoted study

[Anonymous No.18741279]

A vast, vast majority of Buddhists never mediated, it isn't a prerequisite.

[Anonymous No.18741292]

>>18741248
>next life huh
Looks like you’ve not read sutras either.

[Anonymous No.18741297]

>>18741278
I'm not surprised that pajeets came up with all this buddhism and spirituality stuff. they live miserable lives all things considered. my guys have been trying to cope since 2000 bc.
>>18741279
yeah i've read that this meditation craze is something from the 19th century. which makes sense since these medtation methos i read about seem to be from relatively recent traditions out of thaland or burma.

[Anonymous No.18741298]

>>18741278
>dopey mexicans can spend the whole afternoon asleep on the back of a mule
kino

[Anonymous No.18741299]

>>18741292
it was a joke x

[Anonymous No.18741304]

>>18741248
>eastern
>philosophy
Nah...thanks

[Anonymous No.18741309]

>>18741304
nothing is caused by itself.
nothing is caused by something else.
nothing is caused by both
nothing is uncaused.

[Anonymous No.18741333]

Buddhist metaphysics are as a whole much closer to the truth than abrahamic but it's still wrong so don't worry about it
Continue reading and always come back to the kesamutti sutta regularly

[Anonymous No.18741335]

>>18741278
>>18741297
Sutra/doctrinal study was considered devotional. Buddhism as westerners know it was invented around 1890-1900.

[Anonymous No.18741342]

>>18741335
An "umm ackshully" post that adds nothing new.

[Anonymous No.18741418]

In my opinion, without a diligent meditative practice its quite unlikely youll experience the real fruits of what is revealed in the sutras or whatever it is youre reading. Thats not to say you cant enjoy the wisdom and incorporate it into your life, it’s just theres an experiential aspect to meditation that reading cant give you.

If youre having pain, theres no need to sit cross legged, really, just sit in a straight backed chair, gently touching it with your back to guide your posture, while not leaning back to rest on the chair. Place your legs so you have maybe 2 fingers width between the back of your knee and the end of the seat of the chair, feet flat on the ground, and try not to angle your hips awkwardly, just let them rest. Keep the spine “loose straight”.

I honestly dont think the pain excuse works if you actually attempt to meditate. Pain can actually be a powerful object of meditation. In the end it just disappears into the cloud of sensations that makes up your body. Dont focus on it, just observe it. Meditation is actually immensely satisfying once you really learn to rest within it. Im not some expert by any means, but I have a few hundred hours under my belt now and have really enjoyed it. Im not a particularly diligent person, but to see meaningful changes in my life as a result of the practice specifically is what has me personally sold on it.

[Anonymous No.18741435]

>>18741418
>I honestly dont think the pain excuse works if you actually attempt to meditate

ironically it's not the pain as such. it's the mind moreso.
i feel loads of saying itching sensatinos and i can note them objectvely 'this is itching this is itching this is itching'.

but the strain in legs, the spasming of back and legs, becomes distracting. my body is physically shaking. i can sense the 'this is discomfort this is dicomfort, this is aversion this is aversion to the dicmfort' but eventually my brain just taps out and says 'ok fuck this'

[Anonymous No.18741453]

>>18741435
When I feel an itch during meditation, or have a thought that a spider is crawling into my ear or whatever, I just observe that sensation, and whats odd about itching specifically is it follows a progression. For me, after about 2 minutes or so of observation, it becomes just a buzzing sensation then disappears entirely.

My legs tense up sometimes, back gets stiff, I mean I dont go crazy with the length of time normally, id say 20 minutes a day is a great start, not physically taxing in the least.

For me the most frustrating part of meditation is when my mind just will not stop running away with itself. Ill go many breaths without any real sense of meaningful focus. Some meditations even feel “wasted” at first, but normally even those have a bright spot or two.

[Anonymous No.18741462]

>>18741453
I'm doing 30 minutes of it though i wsih to do a full hour. i have the same experience with itching it's mildly amusing to watch actually

>leg stiffening
this becomes a massive annoying problem after the 25 minute mark that's where my problem lies

>mind running away
i've overcome this by and large.
this is:
liking, aversion, distraction, boredom/tiredness, clinging.
the future is empty
the past is empty.
the mind precedes all phenomena.
the untrained mind can do worse than an enemy can.

^ good things to remember.

[Anonymous No.18741505]

>>18741462
For me pain comes and goes, longest I go is 45 minutes but normally ill just do 15 or 20. In a straight backed chair I never have issues aside from leg stiffness, which can normally be mitigated with a slight adjustment. Youre sitting in a chair and still experiencing unbearable pain?

>ive overcome this by and large
Im familiar with the basic things youve described here, I mean, I see what youre saying, Im not saying I “suffer” from it, just that it tends to be the only true source of “frustration” in my practice, but even that isnt the right word. My view on it is that it is literally part of everyone’s practice by default, and is really never fully overcome as this is simply the nature of the mind. You just observe. Eventually we catch glimpses of whats behind it.

I dont meditate on thoughts or ideas often, but yes, I am a proponent of the whole “the past and future dont exist and never have” because its objectively true. For the purposes of anything ever going on, its only ever right now. We just get torn by sensation and thoughts left and right to where we never really get to “experience” it. Whats great about meditation too is over time you see that the things locked within it are actually right there on the surface of experience. Returning to it briefly out of nowhere can bring you right back into its depths.

One analogy I always liked
>when we first sit to meditate, the contents of the mind are like the mountainous headwaters of a river, rushing through a narrow canyon
>they are turbulent and fast moving
>as they reach the plains, they widen, the pace slows, we can observe the flow of the river quite easily
>eventually, the river meets and becomes one with the vastness of the sea

[Anonymous No.18741514]

>>18741505
>Youre sitting in a chair and still experiencing unbearable pain?
no sitting cross legged on the floor without a cushion.

[Anonymous No.18741538]

>>18741514
I think youd have a far better experience sitting in a straight backed chair, or even on a stool or pillow. Oddly enough I used to sit that same way back in college for whatever reason. Fucked my ankles up, legs would go numb, that was annoying and distracting for sure.

I say sit in a straight backed chair or stool, I definitely have a better time on average, although on occasion ill do a cross legged meditation too.

[Anonymous No.18741564]

>>18741538
if monks do it cross legged without a cushion i should aspire to the same

eventually i want to be able to do pic related.

[Anonymous No.18741577]

>>18741564
Id argue youre going with into it somewhat misguided if youre serious with this post. Youre trying to look the part too much, and id bet youre also preoccupied with the length of time you meditate as well. I think youre trying to force something that really cant be forced. Frankly, its a spontaneous thing. No point going through needless suffering but hey. Dont set yourself on fire anytime soon.

[Anonymous No.18741598]

>>18741564
Thats hot

[Anonymous No.18741610]

>>18741564
His final words: 南無阿彌陀佛
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sluLcBWP9M

[Anonymous No.18741630]

>>18741577
i do see your point actually and i was thinking today 'why am i preoccupied with trying to meditate for a certain length of time, how meaningless is that? - this is definitely a hindrance'

that said i want to develop my practice so that i can handle my mind's urge to escape discomfort.
>>18741598
yep
>>18741610
>amitabha
hmmm i would have personally taken refuge in the buddha, dhamma and sangha.

[Anonymous No.18741753]

>>18741248
Why are you trying to sit for more than 30 mins? It isn't like longer meditation = better. It isn't a race or an edurance event.
Start small. Short time, many times.
Formal sitting is only part of the practice as well, informal meditation through your day is a key element.
Also one posture isn't better than another. Two point posture is fine. If you haven't sat cross legged for most your life than seven point posture is going to take some work to become comfortable. You'll need to stretch and work on opening your hips.
>>18741418
This is great advice.
>>18741435
As has been said discomfort can be a great support for awareness, but if it is overwhelming than it won't be beneficial. You can't "think" you way out of it. That's just more thought activity. This isn't penance either. There are no extra points for suffering through.
Move, adjust your position, scratch the itch, get up, go for a walk. Just be aware of what you are doing. There is no magic trick or secret.
Do you know what you are doing? Yes? Then you are aware.
>>18741564
liberation is not the reserve of those who can sit cross legged for a long time.
>i want
>>18741630
The mind wanders, that just what it does. You aren't going to over power it and meditate it into submission. The mind will always want to escape discomfort. Why wouldn't it? You won't reach a state where you don't experience pain, itching, and so on. No time soon anyway. Don't get distracted by the experience of meditation. It changes, some days there will be bliss, clarity, peace. Others there will be distraction, agitation, and so on. Stay with the essence of meditation, awareness.
Do you know what is happening? Yes? Then you are aware.
There's nothing to do.

[Anonymous No.18741786]

>>18741248
Just wait until your next life bro

[Anonymous No.18741802]

Reminder that you'll ngmi if you're reading sutras and/or meditating with the intent to get enlightened.
Buddhism is a scam for brainlets.

[Anonymous No.18741908]

If you have problems meditating sitting, you'll have even more problems meditating while splitting wood, washing dishes, cooking lunch, or giving birth to a human being from your cunt.

[Anonymous No.18742062]

>>18741610
>南無阿彌陀佛

[Anonymous No.18742088]

>>18741753
>Why are you trying to sit for more than 30 mins?
i want to go on a meditation course that has hours of meditatino where you're told to sit still.
>informal meditation through your day is a key element.
i unironically incorporate this a lot more than formal meditation. i wake up and note. i walk and note. i sit at work and note.
> some work to become comfortable. You'll need to stretch and work on opening your hips.
tips on this?
>Do you know what you are doing? Yes? Then you are aware.
fair. moving leg moving leg moving leg moving leg.
>liberation is not the reserve of those who can sit cross legged for a long time.
i mean equanimity.
>i want
i know i-making is not right, but there is no way of expressing the aspiration in english.
>Do you know what is happening? Yes? Then you are aware
this is largely what my meditation entails of.
i don't get lost in thoughts or let things happen without my attention.
i sit and note. rising falling, nose itching nose itching, hearing hearing, distraction distraction, etc.

today i noticed that my cheeks are empty. they do not exist until they arose through conditional dependence on my attention.

[Anonymous No.18742107]

>>18741278
Confucius is NPC ideology

[Anonymous No.18742279]

>>18742088
How long have you been practicing for?
What is the course?

Personally I would be wary of noting, it can very easily turn into analysis, which is just more thought. And noting shouldn't be a game of whack a mole with your thoughts. Do you use any other supports?

Regarding your posture and hips, avoid any lotus position, if your hips aren't open you can cause yourself lasting knee damage by forcing it. There are many, many guides and videos online to start working on this. Warning, it takes a lot of time for some people. I have very tight hips, so half lotus and full lotus are not possible for me at the moment.

There is nothing wrong with the I, you can't really function without it. Don't sweat it. Just careful with the wants.

[Anonymous No.18742399]

>>18741564
https://youtu.be/prXUs6op_6Q?t=137
the photographer says that there was a cushion there

[Anonymous No.18742437]

>>18742399
A little bit funny that.

[Anonymous No.18742501]

>>18741248
>supposedly knows le epic buddhist theory but doesn't basic shit about meditation
either you are delusional or retarde
you are supposed to invite distractions and physical pain/discomfort into the meditation and meditate on it

[Anonymous No.18742628]

>"Some disciples who listen to the Master's words have photographic memories, but the trouble with them is that nothing is ever developed!

'The disciple and the Master

[Anonymous No.18742634]

>>18742501
I know but its like saying you're supposed to not take heroin when you're talking to a heroin addict.

a heroin addict might be a fucking doctor who knows exactly what the risks are. still wants his next hit.

[Anonymous No.18742750]

>>18742634
that's where effort and regular practices comes in
heroin addict gets 100 craving, he puts effort and regular practice into letting them go 100 times and becomes less addicted each time
meditation practitioner gets 100 mental and physical distractions, he 100 times recognizes them, invites them and meditates with them and becomes better
and yea shit is kind of hard, especially early on or with some really addicting distractions

[Anonymous No.18742959]

I think the heroin addict example is too strong. There are some arising that are just too much when you start out in your practice.
The vast, vast, vast majority of people aren't going to be able to simple observe and be present with heroin cravings.
The same goes for sitting in a horribly comfortable, forced posture. The discomfort or the mental chatter that comes with it is going to be too much to be a useful support for awareness.
There is no need to sit there with your back cramping and your knees screaming in a vein attempt to maintain some poor resemblance of the seven point posture.
Sit in a chair, lie on bed, whatever allows you to calm your mind.
The same goes for trying to sit for a long period of time. There's no advantage to it. You will be better off splitting an hour into four session of 15 mins through out the day. This would also help you with the transition between formal and informal practice.

Just a side note on informal practice. It is helpful to set yourself a goal. Start with 10 times a day and slowly build from there. I use my phone. I have all other notifications switched off, and currently have 30 reminders throughout the day to check in with whatever support I am currently practicing with. At the moment it is emotions.

[Anonymous No.18743191]

>>18742399
The Western Buddhist ultra-purist yelling at him as he burns: "You faker!"

[Anonymous No.18743202]

>>18743191
>*monk utters one last namu amida butsu before immolating himself*
>"umm actually mahayana isn't real buddhism"

[Anonymous No.18743958]

>>18741248
didn't shaolin monks start doing physical exercise and martial arts cause they were too weak to sit in meditation for too long
kind of like office workers feel discomfort from sitting all day but if you do vigorous exercise everyday you can sit for 6 hours without problems

[Anonymous No.18744394]

>>18741248
eightfold path, and the three trainings my son. The path is difficult, it takes great time to become worthy of enlightenment.

A journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step.

[Anonymous No.18745622]

>>18741802
What youre describing is the difference between actual meditation, and thinking with your eyes closed. For me there’s no goal to my meditative practice other than to just do it. I wouldnt say Buddhism is a “scam”, unless youre getting into it for all the wrong reasons, in which case youve only scammed yourself.

[Anonymous No.18745740]

>>18741248
Most of the distracting pain is generated by the mind only and it's easy to differentiate from the real one by checking if it goes away immediately after you get up. The first months when I was meditating for 15 minutes at first were indeed very hard, but now sitting 50 minutes a day is easy and painless. My meditation pose is sitting with straight back on the side of the bed with the back of my ass supported by rolled up bed sheets - it helps keeping my back straight and staves off numbness and pain from my legs.

[Anonymous No.18745916]

>>18741259
>Without launching into a debate as to how hinduism is 100% wrong (it is)
It’s not, and all of the Buddhist arguments for Hinduism being wrong are embarrassingly bad, often relying on circular logic.

[Anonymous No.18745920]

>>18741309
>nothing is uncaused.
the truth is that God/Brahman is uncaused

[Anonymous No.18745992]

>>18745916
>embarrassingly bad, often relying on circular logic.
Sorry were you describing theology?

[Anonymous No.18746064]

>>18745992
No, I was describing Buddhist arguments against Hinduism, which often rely on attempting to fault Hinduism for not accepting Buddhist axioms/dogma which have themselves not been justified or demonstrated

[Anonymous No.18746094]

>>18746064
Buddhism lives rent-free in every post-Buddhist Hindu treatise.

[Anonymous No.18746164]

>>18746094
That’s not true, there are countless Hindu treatises which don’t mention Buddhism at all. And even in the Buddhist writings well into the second millennium there were still Tibetan Buddhists trying to attack other Indian non-Buddhist schools. Lastly, simply refuting something isn’t letting it live rent-free.

[Anonymous No.18746207]

>>18746164
All I know is whenever the poopoopeepeebhasya or the peepeepoopoobhasya gets posted here it's pages of seething about anatman.

[Anonymous No.18746225]

>>18741278
>white people aren't built for indolence
He says while whites sit obese, coddled, and consuming soulless forms of media for hours on end

[Anonymous No.18746248]

>>18746094
Hindus don't care about Buddhism. They haven't since it got BTFO so hard it left the subcontinent. Buddhism is annihilationist, life-denying nonsense for the testosterone-deficient. Embrace the world and find Brahman in it

[Anonymous No.18746363]

Good thread. My issue is that I will consistently mediate twice a day for a month, feel better than I ever have, be better in every conceivable way, and then... stop. And then it's a decline into suffering again.
Anyone know why this happens? I know meditating is only good and yet I struggle to start again. It's like the mind is fighting to protect itself.

[Anonymous No.18746445]

>>18742088
>i want to go on a meditation course that has hours of meditatino where you're told to sit still.
I went on a three day Soto Zen sesshin having zero experience other than reading 'Three Pillars of Zen', experienced all that mental noise stuff. That is actually the revelation - just how chaotic the mind really is. Then evolved to endless sex fantasies etc. Next sesshin I found it took about 5 days to get to the equanimity state. Hakuin says "If you desire the great tranquility, prepare to sweat." Eventually I just enjoyed the chanting and ritual meals most.

[Anonymous No.18746486]

>>18742628
>>"Some disciples who listen to the Master's words have photographic memories, but the trouble with them is that nothing is ever developed!
The Buddha's faithful disciple Ananda could recite from memory all the Buddha's discourses, but did not achieve realization until after the Buddha died iirc, having been in daily contact with him 40 years (?)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thus_have_I_heard

[Anonymous No.18746509]

>>18746248
Thank you for calling Brahman my name is Jiva how may Atman help you?

[Anonymous No.18746527]

>>18746363
>It's like the mind is fighting to protect itself.
yes, the ego resists being dethroned, it will put up a big fight, delusions and fantasies etc, it is hard to persist to the point the ego is exhausted and stops fighting, 'now I see you O house builder ..."

[Anonymous No.18746545]

>>18746509
Atman would like to reincarnate but Atman is actually Anatman which reincarnates but actually doesn't but technically does because Anatman

[Anonymous No.18746619]

>>18746509
>til that the Buddha wasn't born on the Indian subcontinent

[Anonymous No.18746694]

>>18741259
you suck it up you absolute pussy or you move to more comfortable position and continue. It's about slowly building discipline to be able to ignore the pain or at the very least use it to ignore distracting thoughts. Pic related. Cmon, at least TRY to escape suffering. Unbelievable, all of them, every buddhist in my life.

[Anonymous No.18746728]

>>18746694
Isn't this why yoga was invented? People noticed that if they did certain poses every day, that "God" was more likely to visit them during meditation, when really they were just able to concentrate better with less pain.

[Anonymous No.18746746]

>>18746545
Samsara is red
Nirvana is blue
They don't think it be like it is but it do.

[Anonymous No.18746774]

I respect the Buddha but I find Buddhists insufferable. I respect Jesus but I find Christians insufferable

[Anonymous No.18746786]

>>18746746
Very wise Master Gautama :)))

[Anonymous No.18746796]

>>18746728
Depends on what you believe god is. From what I've learned, through personal experience and studying, Yoga is about forcibly inducing such pain to enter meditative states much easier. If you can only focus on the pain, and ignore that, your ego dies along with it. You can finally experience existence without your perceptual barriers, you can experience the universal consciousness. "God is" etc.

[Anonymous No.18748499]

>>18746363
Feeling better is great and all, but it isn't the point. Feeling great comes and goes, just like feeling bad. Don't look at meditation as a means to feeling better.
>>18746728
>>18746796
yoga is more than postures and stretching.

[Anonymous No.18748521]

>>18748499
>Don't look at meditation as a means to feeling better.
Then what should be it's purpose?

[Anonymous No.18748529]

I don't care about reading shit. I am starting meditation from today to see if I will observe some shit. And then after a year if get some experiences I will start reading Buddhist literature to see if the description matches with what I saw. I just want to see does those experiences exist without the preexisting knowledge.

What do you Buddhist bros think?

[Anonymous No.18748551]

>>18748529
Don't try and do or achieve anything, start out by just sitting in the mornings for 10-15 mins with the intention of observing what happens. Nothing more. Do this for a week or so. Don't bother with any special posture. Just sit in a normal chair, with your feet flat on the ground, hand and arms resting in your lap or on your legs, and keeping you back loosely straight.
>>18748521
To be aware.

[Anonymous No.18748555]

Try meditating lying down.

[Anonymous No.18748573]

>>18741252
>Hinduism
>using toilets

[Anonymous No.18748586]

>>18748573

[Anonymous No.18748587]

>>18748551
>start out by just sitting in the mornings for 10-15 mins with the intention of observing what happens. Nothing more. Do this for a week or so. Don't bother with any special posture. Just sit in a normal chair, with your feet flat on the ground, hand and arms resting in your lap or on your legs, and keeping you back loosely straight.
Hmm thank you I will this.

>>18748551
>To be aware.
Bro I am aware of death and my bodily functions most time of the day. The only time I seethe is when I reflect back on my interactions with people because in those moments I completely lose my awarenesses and my instincts take over.

What I am doing wrong?

[Anonymous No.18748618]

>>18748587
>Bro I am aware of death and my bodily functions most time of the day.
You're over complicating it. Let all the be. Just be openly aware.
>The only time I seethe is when I reflect back on my interactions with people because in those moments I completely lose my awarenesses and my instincts take over.
Slowly learn to recognize awareness in those moments. A good start is to use sound as a support during formal meditation. This can then be carried over into your mundane life. With that set the intention to also use your voice as a support. This can help you recognize awareness during interactions with other.
Again don't over complicated this with judgment or analysis. Let any expectations be, they will only hinder you. There is nothing to achieve or gain here.
When you are in conversation with someone just know you are listening to them. When you reply to them know that you are talking.
Don't try to hold onto any of this for a long periods of time. You can't force this, straining won't help. You will constantly forget. But that's ok and normal. Everything time you remember to be aware of sound and to be aware of your voice you are reinforcing your awareness. So celebrate that gently.
Instead of
>oh fuck I forgot I was meant to be meditating on sound/voice
make it
>Nice! I've remembered to be aware!

[Anonymous No.18748626]

>commit great effort to the study of Sanskrit
>train my body physically
> regularly hike, fast, eat a very restrictive diet
>no trouble meditating
OP I think you just haven't properly nurtured your tapas. I'm partial to the Buddhist, but this is the yogi speaking when I say OP, you need to realize there is more than the workings of the mind.

[Anonymous No.18748643]

>>18748618
Thank you friend.

[Anonymous No.18749200]

>>18748626
>he trains his body physically
>thinks he is a yogi
ayyylmao

[Anonymous No.18749209]

>he meditates
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_gJYxM6cMA

[Anonymous No.18749320]

>>18741248
Fkn dork
stop being such a lukewarm little bitch and chuck your comfy books out and see shit for yourself
Nothing as pure as a bit of pain

[Anonymous No.18749471]

>>18741248
That's the difference between theory and practice, buddy. Time to get cracking. Or just consoom more media (theory). As befits your station. Don't forget, you'll be reborn in a coomer realm.

[Anonymous No.18750680]

>>18749200
Nah I'm not a yogi but I like some of the things they say

[Anonymous No.18751642]

>>18741278
NW India was more culturally advanced than Persia and Europe for much of its history.
The debates Charvakans, Jains, Hindus, and Buddhists had could get pretty complex.