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File: 527 KB, 1227x1600, Blaise-Pascal-engraving-Henry-Hoppner-Meyer-1833 (2).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
18701723 No.18701723 [Reply] [Original]

>Pascal's wager
literally irrefutable.

>> No.18701735
File: 260 KB, 1685x1930, pascal'sblunder.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
18701735

>op posts bait to read refutations of pascal
Not as clever as you think, but I haven't used picrel in a long while, so here you go.

>> No.18701736

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONoU-uI2x2I

>> No.18701749

>>18701723
enjoy gambling your SOVL

>> No.18701759

>>18701735
This was BTFO by the mathematician guy weeks ago.

>> No.18701775

>>18701735
you don't understand religions. Most of them don't even demand you to believe in a specific god. "African folk religion" won't send you to hell for not worshipping their local deities. Salvation through faith is a very specific form of worship that doesn't find application beyond Abrahamic religions.

>> No.18701780

>>18701749
you're forced to gamble. Being an Atheist/secularist/agnostic is an option as well.

>> No.18701785

>>18701723
Bait. 7/10
I'm sure an omnipotent god doesn't distinguish between belief and gambling

>> No.18701804
File: 120 KB, 1300x866, 120842803-luxury-casino-roulette-wheel-on-black-background-casino-theme-close-up-black-casino-roulette-with-a-.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
18701804

>>18701785
>I BELEIVE it's going to be black and I am willing to put my money where my mouth is.
Gambling and beleif are very related, we bet on the things we beleive in.

>> No.18701853

>>18701759
link?

>> No.18702194

>>18701735
Your image is the only bait I see

>> No.18702200

>>18701759
No it wasn’t. He was far more reasonable than any of you and admitted that the Wager is flawed.

>> No.18702205

>>18702200
Yet he BTFO that reddit chart.

>> No.18702207

>>18701775
Kys

>> No.18702354

>>18701735

The problem with that image is that it does not make a distinction between "eternal damnation" and "unpleasant afterlife". This makes a lot of difference for the argument, it only works for religions with the concept of "eternal damnation" since it means that does not matter how small the probability of this God being true you'll still better obey him otherwise you would be acting irrationally.

So we can agree that the religions that do not have eternal damnation as a concept are not even in the game anymore(hinduism, atheism, most folk religions and so on...). But still the argument is not fool-proof because Roman Catholicism is not the only religion that is left after we eliminated the losers. Some other christian denominations are still in the game, also some islamic sects, also some rationalists on LessWrong invented that Basilisk thing. Now, between the remaining religions you can follow and successfully scape eternal damnation you will need other discerning factors. You will have to decide between those which are the most likely and which are or are not mutually exclusive, and in this second phase it is not very clear that Roman Catholicism is the winner, so Pascal could still lose to the Reddit chart(if it was better formulated).

>> No.18702356

>>18701804
Dostoevskij was a pathological gambler who wrote a book on being a pathological gambler in like two weeks to pay off his gambling debts

>> No.18702383

>>18701723
If Christianity isn't true you have a lot to lose by living according to its principles.

>> No.18702449 [DELETED] 

>>18701723
also literally useless

>> No.18703271

>>18701759
You don't need math to see that almost every religion on the list is meme tier especially from Pascals POV

>> No.18704255

>>18701735
That's pretty clever actually

>> No.18704263

>>18701780
So I'm just playing a game? Sounds pretty based tbqh

>> No.18704436

>>18702356
>if Dosto lived in our age he would've gambled away all his money in online poker then an heroed
Makes you think.

>> No.18704442

>>18701723
SO IS THE DEVIL'S WAGER.if u replace the god with the devil in his wager u better take it.

>> No.18704467

It never ceases to amaze me how smart people could come up with such retarded metaphysical frameworks, I guess this is what trying to look knowledgeable across the board looks like, should've stayed in maths.

>> No.18704487

>>18702383
>>18701723
Even assuming you have a completely eurocentric view on metaphysics ( and a very narrow one at that) and somehow Christianity was the correct choice, you still lack faith, you think God can't recognize a genuine believer from an opportunist?

>> No.18704512

>>18701723
Wrong because there is no basis for going to hell for disbelief in God

>> No.18704571

>>18701723
It really is. Any time a thread is made about it here or on /his/ atheists swarm it and dismiss the argument without any actual refutations, this one included.

>> No.18704578

>>18704487
This is the main problem, I wouldn't tell people. Let them think that they are smart asses. I'm agnostic and if I end up in hell, it will definitely be funny watching the ones who fell for the Pascal meme.

>> No.18704662

>>18704487
>>18704578
see>>18701804, if you go to mosque, pray, do charity, fast ...ect, these are signs that you beleive that God exists.
If you were certain that God doesn't exist you wouldn't do any of these things. You can't control your heart but you can control your conscious actions, you can only be held responsible for things you control.
You claim to belive on God? put your money where your mouth is, act like a true beleiver.

>> No.18704690

>>18704662
>If you were certain that God doesn't exist you wouldn't do any of these things
WRONG
R
O
N
G
You absolutely can do all of that without (truly or otherwise) believing in god.

t. pretended to be muslim for most of my life. prayed five times a day, fasted on ramadan, went to hajj, paid zakah, etc. all doing so while not believing in god, it was really social performance that I became complacent in keeping up and didn't reflect on until I was older.

>> No.18704714

>>18704690
Were you certain God didn't exsist when you did these things? Now that you are certain God doesn't exsist do you do these things?

>> No.18704715

>>18701735
I'm Catholic. The chart is entirely wrong about Catholism [sic]. It'd be more accurate to say "uncertain" for what happens to all the labeled beliefs because belief isn't guaranteed salvation or damnation in Catholicism (is "deeds rewarded" a belief or is the chart mixing beliefs with "deeds" but labeling them as beliefs and implying good and bad deeds are universally the same?). The Catholic Church doesn't say if you believe in Judaism, you go to hell, but there's some possibility to be saved. “God will reward every man according to his works.” Important disclaimer: this doesn't mean you're saved by doing good deeds.
"...anyone who is ever saved is not saved by his or her false religious beliefs (i.e. Judaism that rejects Christ, Islam that denies Jesus is the Son of God, etc.); rather, they can be saved in spite of them.” God's grace is what saves you.
https://www.catholic.com/video/are-we-saved-by-works

>> No.18704719

>>18704715
I meant to link this one.
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/is-there-really-no-salvation-outside-the-catholic-church

>> No.18704724

>>18704714
>Were you certain God didn't exsist when you did these things?
Yes. I was just too cowardly to admit it.

>> No.18704727

>>18704690
I was born half arab and even then I still felt I had to act a lot of ways socially when I was younger. They don't know what it's like.

>> No.18704731

>>18704724
Well if you have as much as a mustard seed of faith, you will not be toremnted for eternity.
Even of you have little to no faith, you can still act like a beleiver in the hopes that it will save you.

>> No.18704739

>>18701723
>"I don't have the faith to believe, but if I fake it, then God is petty and stupid enough to take my cynical bet hedging as enough to reward me"
Such a God wouldn't even be worth fake believing in

>> No.18704743

>>18704731
>Well if you have as much as a mustard seed of faith, you will not be toremnted for eternity.
That is not true at all. Not in Islam anyway.

>Even of you have little to no faith, you can still act like a beleiver in the hopes that it will save you.
If I had little to no faith, then I wouldn't be holding any hope that merely acting like a believer would save me, which I didn't.

>>18704727
They really don't, they were born into secular communities and think social religious performance is a wholly voluntary thing and that there would be no consequences in participating in it.

>> No.18704745

>>18704743
>and that there would be no consequences in not participating in it***

>> No.18704754

>>18704743
>That is not true at all. Not in Islam anyway
it is true. according to sunnah and Quran.

>I wouldn't be holding any hope that merely acting like a believer would save me, which I didn't.
You should at least conclude that logically it's better than doing nothing.

>> No.18704772

>>18704754
>it is true. according to sunnah and Quran.
It's not. There are many criteria for eternal punishment, even for believers, the greatest of which is not upholding the five pillars. Hell being a place can eventually leave if it has a history of belief is a largely Christian concept. In Islam, once you're in hell, there's pretty much no way out. And Jews believe in a pseudo-hell-plane where your soul gets "washed" of sins, where the process can be more or less painful depending on how numerous, but you'll end up in heaven eventually either way.

>You should at least conclude that logically it's better than doing nothing.
Religious performance without belief means absolutely nothing. If your heart's in it, you might as well be doing anything, God is not dumb.

>> No.18704778

>>18704772
>Hell being a place a soul can eventually leave***

>> No.18704782

For any action you take there's some vanishingly small probability it will result in eternal torture. But there's also a chance that not taking that particular action will result in eternal torture.

>> No.18704791

>>18704772
>If your heart's not in it, you might as well not be doing anything, God is not dumb.****
Typing at 1 AM, excuse the errors.

>> No.18704805

>>18704772
You are not about to deny sahih al boukahri are you?
http://qaalarasulallah.com/hadithView.php?ID=44
it is a concept we have in islam.

>Religious performance without belief means absolutely nothing
Like I said before you can't control your heart but you can control your actions.

>> No.18704809

>>18704791
you are excused :)

>> No.18704863

>>18701735
The idea of that chart is that believing in a religion is statistically insignificant in the apparent benefit because of how many religions out there have neutral to unpleasant afterlives for nonbelievers, right? But against this there's probably more religions awarding god-belief than unbelief, especially with something as common as a heavenly All-Father. Being an Abrahamist already gives three religions, and then there's the Native American Great Spirit, the Hindu Supreme Being, Dyeus Pater and derivatives, Kuni-no-Tokotachi, and Huangtian Shangdi. Instead, the chart, if it included more religions and wasn't made by illiterate redditors, would favor God believers more.
However this thinking would violate the exclusivity between the religious doctrines that was part of the actual argument by Pascal.

>> No.18704874

>>18704863
Hmm, or maybe the take away should be that, from an anthropological standpoint, human cultures invent Gods with arbitrary characteristics which often conflict and are mutually exclusive and therefore cannot possibly be accurate descriptions of real deities

>> No.18704880

>>18704863
>would favor God believers more.
Flying Spaghetti Monster believers finally vindicated!

>> No.18704901

>>18704874
Many intellectuals have argued for the exsistance of God though. If someone like Von Neumann beleived in God, maybe one should give more thought and weight into his eternal fate.

>> No.18705006

>>18704874
From an anthropological standpoint (lol) there are Gods from far-off places with much more in common than they differ. I already gave examples.
>>18704880
Midg(e/i)ts 5:41-44
Already syncretic

>> No.18705458

>>18701735
I thought this as a pokemon type chart