/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.18646855]

Is there a nice western analysis of this? Like using this to reconstruct history? I don't need Muslims in this thread

[Anonymous No.18646982]

Checked, muslim here, not gonna shit up your thread just also curious on this as well.

[Anonymous No.18647553]

what do you mean by "reconstruct history"

[Anonymous No.18648572]

>>18646855
It's only happening quite recently. The first systematic book was the History of Koran in 1860, and output has increased with the likes of Günter Lüling, Régis Blachère or Manfred Kropp.
It is extremely frustrating to talk about because you are immediately faced with a wall of bullshit from Muslims (who somehow think it is dictated by god) and, even worse, western (and non-muslim) islamo-"philes". Even last decade a fatwa forbid again Noldeke's 1860 book, and you just have to see the shitshow that came from Luxenberg releasing his work (fortunately under pseudonym).
There is nothing even close to a critical edition of the Quran, the hadiths and other relevant texts, or a critical history of the period. I'm afraid resources in English will be limited, most serious islamology is done elsewhere.
If you want a single quick rundown it would be Alfred-Louis de Prémare, Les Fondations de l'Islam. Luxenberg's work is """controversial""" and only covers part of the linguistical debate but has the benefit of being translated in English (look for Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran). The full enchilada is Le Coran des Historiens, a sum by 30 specialists released just one and a half year ago, and includes an extensive bibliography of every sub subject.

[Anonymous No.18648693]

No
Serious scholarship on the Qur'an, Hadith and Sunna is desperately lacking
It's either filled with retards who take everything for granted or for people for drag the scepticism way too far like the
>Muhammad and Rashidun didn't real
Crowd
A big problem with conducting proper critical inquiry and textual criticism on these texts is that the money for Islamic studies overwhelmingly comes from places like Saudi Arabia, the Emirates and Turkey
None of them wish to see an actual critical study of the Qur'an so we're left in this limbo of retardation
To give you an idea, it's still considered somewhat reasonable to view hadith as what most people thought Muhammad might have done from the ninth century Muslim perspective
This is incredibly naive and optimistic but we're still stuck at this point

[Anonymous No.18648807]

>>18648693
This, I'm of Muslim Arab background and I wish we had an academic approach to the Quran, there is a critical edition being worked on (Corpus Coranicum) finally, but there are still many retards who would oppose any such thing and don't want to go beyond the medieval approach to the Quran

[Anonymous No.18648924]

>>18646855
the thing is that any extensive western analysis of the quran is going to need to go into the literature of the scholars of islam otherwise they're not going to have anything to say. A western analysis of the Qur'an is an oxymoron because you can only look at it from an Arabic lens; anything else would be clear bipartisanship and would be contradict itself seven hundred different ways

[Anonymous No.18648939]

Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam
Dr. Muhammad Iqbal

>Sir Muhammad Iqbal KCSI (Urdu: محمد اقبال; 9 November 1877 – 21 April 1938) was a Muslim writer,[1][2] philosopher,[3] and politician,[4] whose poetry in the Urdu language is among the greatest of the twentieth century,[5][6][7][8] and whose vision of a cultural and political ideal for the Muslims of British-ruled India[9] was to animate the impulse for Pakistan.[1][10] He is commonly referred to by the honorific Allama[11] (from Persian: علامہ, romanized: ʿallāma, lit.'very knowing, most learned').

>Born and raised in Sialkot, Punjab (present-day Pakistan) in an ethnic Kashmiri family, Iqbal studied in Sialkot and Lahore, and thereafter in England and Germany. Although he established a law practice after returning, he concentrated primarily on writing scholarly works on politics, economics, history, philosophy, and religion.

[Anonymous No.18648957]

>>18648939
https://b-ok.cc/book/3381075/d0e00f

Also look up Louis Massignon.

[Anonymous No.18648978]

>>18648957
>Louis Massignon
Also look up his student Henry Corbin for a kino phenomenology of Shiism.

[Anonymous No.18649190]

>>18648572
>Luxen(((berg)))
Why is it that only (((historians))) on Islam happen to be (((them)))?

[Anonymous No.18649235]

>>18648693
I am not usually one to just go and trash "anglos" but what you describe is the situation in English speaking countries. There is at least an attempt at higher level of discourse in other places.

>>18648924
This is stupid on so many levels I don't even know where to begin.

>>18648807
>Corpus Coranicum
Will be mostly of use for revealing the collection of pictures conserved in Berlin and its analysis. They've already scaled back the critical edition aims.

>>18648939
>>18648957
>>18648978
OP asked for coranic studies. This has nothing to do with it.

>>18649190
Aside from being a pseudonym, it's just a German surname. There are barely any yids left in Germany and many think the man is Lebanese. Jews are not very represented in scholarship on Islam.

[Anonymous No.18649297]

>>18648572
>Luxenberg
The Aramaic book is bullshit though. I also should have added in the OP that I also don't want dumb polemical morons like you

[Anonymous No.18649300]

>>18649235
>this is stupid on so many levels
can you read arabic dickhead? if not dont even try to read the quran in translation unless you keep this in mind: you are missing 90% of the original meaning.

>b-b-but translations are good enough!!!111
t. someone who has no experience with semitic languages

[Anonymous No.18649475]

>>18649300
You are completely delusional.
>A western analysis of the Qur'an is an oxymoron because you can only look at it from an Arabic lens
First you don't know what an oxymoron is. Should you properly mean Arabic as a language, it is somewhat true, but has nothing to do with the "literature of the scholars of islam" that you indicate in your previous sentence. You can certainly study languages (Semitic or not) for themselves. In fact it is a requirement of the establishment of texts and their history.
The linguistical question is indeed paramount, and one of the necessity of a critical edition. Precisely because the Quran cannot be established looking just at standard Arabic.
>anything else would be clear bipartisanship
You have some nerve calling people dickheads after saying something so comical.
>you are missing 90% of the original meaning
I don't even get where you're coming from since I never mentioned translations. No text whatsoever loses "90% of its original meaning" in translation though. Such bizarre claims of magical properties of the language have no place in any serious discussion, and would certainly not be made by any koranic scholar. That's not even mentioning the issue that the Arabic of the time of the Quran is not standard Arabic even of the Uthmanic recension.

[Anonymous No.18649535]

>>18649475
What you just witnessed is the typical traditional Muslim reaction to this kind of thing. I'm an Arabic speaker who likes to study Biblical philology and historical linguistics, and it's frustrating dealing with these people who don't know the first thing about these topics. They chimp out if you suggest anything that contradicts their shitty traditional "unbroken chain of narration down to the prophet" (lol)

[Anonymous No.18649929]

>>18649535
No you’re not an Arabic speaker, just a confused degenerate who will be going to hell, abandoning the chain of narration will lead to corruption and disintegration of the original implications you absolute child.

[Anonymous No.18649988]

>>18649929
Dumbass, it's not about "abandoning the chains of narrations" but rather treating it with academic criticism and as a piece of the puzzle while considering the wider scope of language (philology)
كس أختك باين انك باكستاني أو مسلم غير عربي جاي تفتي على الخبراء

[Anonymous No.18650088]

>>18649535
It's even more curious when only around 20% of Muslims speak any sort of Arabic. Something around 5% could understand classical Arabic well enough and less than that for archaic Arabic. Notwithstanding all the other linguistical issues related to the Quran. If some scholars sperged out against some very specific claims of some historico-linguistical criticists, no one now denies that the Quran contains many words and grammatical expressions taken from other languages, even after its transformations in the years after Muhmmad.
The idea that you can't get the Quran because of a language barrier is a condemnation of the crushing, overwhelming majority of Muslims. You can't say that it is explained by those that know because that would mean translation is fine. It's also laughable Arab supremacism.
The same people that then launch fatwas against the infidels actually trying to assess the language and text, which was the subject of the thread before the jihadi entered it. You'd think they would welcome linguistic autism to further their racial-cultural imperialism, but they threaten searchers instead for ruining their precious narrative of the uncreated Quran.

[Anonymous No.18650258]

>>18649235
>OP asked for coranic studies. This has nothing to do with it.
No but it is parallel to it, and their general Islamic philosophical insights can help frame a study of the Koran itself.

[Anonymous No.18650270]

>>18649535
>>18650088
seethe harder christcucks

[Anonymous No.18650803]

>>18646855
It makes more sense once you realize who wrote it.

[Anonymous No.18650833]

>>18650803
>drops stone
>bipedal apes build their temples around it
Why did they do it?

[Anonymous No.18651056]

>>18650833
>Alien Interview by Lawrence R. Spencer
>Remote Viewing Moksha by Technical Intuition
>Project Stargate Documents
>Journey's Trilogy by Robert A. Monroe
Earth is a containment zone for unwanted souls. They farm the energy produced by humans and and animals for their own megalomaniac goals of apotheosis. It sounds schizophrenic but it makes sense once you connect the dots. Worship is one way this energy is transmitted, there is a reason muslims all face the same direction (saturn temple) when they pray. Saturn is associated with the demiurge who perpetuates the life cycle, the original skyfather, Chronos. In the chakra system your left hand absorbs energy while your right hand emits it. When muslims go to the saturn temple they ritually point with the right hand im the direction the black rock during each circumambulation. It's a scheme to keep humans trapped in samsars and farm their energy. They wipe the memories of the soul betwern each life cycle. The light that you see when you die is a trap. Don't go there.

[Anonymous No.18651070]

>>18651056

[Anonymous No.18651164]

>>18651070
>>18651056
>>18650803
Who is this schizo that keeps on shitting threads that even remotely relate to Islam

[Anonymous No.18651175]

>>18651164
It's a more general schizoposting, I've seen it in threads completely unrelated.

[Anonymous No.18652441]

>>18651164
Pedo Muhammad fucked a 9 year old.

[Anonymous No.18652821]

>>18649988
academically criticizing Islam is an oxymoron because Islamic sciences of witness transmission and grammar (sharh wa' tadeel) are already academic. It's like academically criticizing the study of embryology. It doesn't make any sense

[Anonymous No.18653111]

[Anonymous No.18653153]

>>18646855
Meme review: this thread edition
> I want to know more about the Quran, but not from Muslims
> I want to know more about the Quran, but only in a way that confirms my pre-existing view that the whole thing is nonsense and it was actually written in petra or whatever consipracy theory my fellow academics are shilling now.
>"Such bizarre claims of magical properties of the language have no place in any serious discussion, and would certainly not be made by any koranic scholar"
Now featuring auto-generated sentences in academo-bugman!
>"no one now denies that the Quran contains many words and grammatical expressions taken from other languages, even after its transformations in the years after Muhmmad."
Hur Dur koran is fake cause it says it's in pure arabic but there are actually loanwords (haven't seen this one in a while)
>"You'd think they would welcome linguistic autism to further their racial-cultural imperialism"
95% chance this a seething paki or some other ethnicity coping about how his people had no culture or achievements prior to Islam and now tries to paint it as "Arab imperialism" despite the fact that his ancestors willingly adopted it.
> Alien schizo is back
>Hur Dur how dare a man who lived in the 6th century not follow laws invented more than a millennia later

[Anonymous No.18653445]

>>18653153
Pakis are the biggest simps for islam. An arab could fuck their wife in front of them and they'd cheer him on. Literally everytime a Paki tries to be proud of their heritage is by (dubiously) tracing it back to arabs and turks.
>pedophilia can't be bad because muh Mohammad loved to diddle kids
Muslim moment.

[Anonymous No.18653456]

>>18653153
Your salah fuels the archonic matrix. Allah is not God, you have been duped. The alien overlords are laughing at how gullible you are while leeching off your energy.