/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.18608375]

are there any books about wageslavin? bonus points if its about how soul crushing it is

[Anonymous No.18608425]

MY DIARY DESU GOD SOMEBODY HELP ME I CANT DO THIS ANYMORE

[Anonymous No.18608437]

>>18608375
yes

[Anonymous No.18608504]

>>18608375
Try some Bukowski.
He feels you.

[Anonymous No.18608512]

>>18608504
Came here to post this.

[Anonymous No.18608520]

A Confederacy of Dunces. But also the movie Clerks.

[Anonymous No.18608567]

>>18608437
>>18608437
cute girl

[Anonymous No.18608790]

>>18608425

[Anonymous No.18609063]

>>18608375
The Factory, Hiroko Oyamada

[Anonymous No.18609296]

>>18608425
The war on wagies is escalating hard

[Anonymous No.18609314]

Can somebody tell me why wageslaving is considered bad again? What’s wrong with working hard honest hours? What’s wrong with working hard all week and then opening a cold one with the boys on the weekend? What’s wrong with coming home from a hard day to the missus who’s happy to rub your feet for you?

[Anonymous No.18609326]

>>18608437
Not a good recommendation since she literally loved wageslaving

[Anonymous No.18609341]

>>18609314

[Anonymous No.18609344]

>>18608375

[Anonymous No.18609390]

>>18608375
The Trial, by Kafka.

[Anonymous No.18609470]

>>18609326
Yeah more a book about crushing societal expectations than wageslaving.

[Anonymous No.18609532]

>>18608375
The essays "Work is Freedom" and "Women find their freedom (dignity) in work" in A Critique of New Commonplaces by Jacques Ellul, available on Libgen.

[Anonymous No.18609545]

>>18609314
you are literally a slave and too dumb to realize it

[Anonymous No.18609551]

>>18608375
So he's wearing a name tag with his name written backwards?

[Anonymous No.18609624]

>>18608375

[Anonymous No.18609768]

>>18609314
you wouldn't get it

[Anonymous No.18609774]

>>18608375
The Jungle

[Anonymous No.18609776]

>>18609314
I’m okay with working long hours because I take pride it in. All I ask for is more money and benefits.

[Anonymous No.18609788]

>>18608375
Die Verwandlung, if you put enough phantasy in it

[Anonymous No.18611098]

>>18609344
through art...
>“You paint?”
“Yes, I’m working on a canvas in my room now. As big as
this wall. Not a mural. A canvas. I am painting a man’s
life—from his birth through the vagina, through all the years of
his existence, then finally into the grave. I look at people in the
park. I use them. That Mary Lou, she’d make one good fuck,
what?”
“Maybe. It could be a mirage.”
“I lived in France. I met Picasso.”
“Did you really?”
“Shit, I did. He’s O.K.”
“How’d you meet him?”
“I knocked on his door.”
“Was he pissed?”
“No. No, he wasn’t pissed.”
“Some people don’t like him.”
“Some people don’t like anybody who is famous.”
“And some people don’t like anybody who isn’t.”
“People don’t count. I wouldn’t piss on a fly for them.”
“What’d Picasso say?”
“Well, I asked him. I said, ‘Master, what can I do to make my
work better?’”
“No shit?”
“No shit.”
“What’d he say?”
“He said, ‘I can’t tell you anything about your work. You must
do it all by yourself.’”
“Ha.”
“Yes.”
“Pretty good.”
“Yes. Got a match?”
I gave him some. His cigar had gone out.
“My brother is rich,” said Maurice. “He has disowned me. He
doesn’t like my drinking. He doesn’t like my painting.”
“But your brother never met Picasso.”
Maurice stood up and smiled.
“No, he never met Picasso.”

[Anonymous No.18611161]

>>18609344
>>18611098
Great writer. I would recommend Post Office, OP. Factotum (which those posts are quoting) is good for wagie stuff too.

[Anonymous No.18611171]

>>18609344
This commie faggot should notice that thanks to capitalist developments these workers drink coffee in ergonomic chairs in air conditioned rooms (while crying about their lot on the internet during working hours) instead of plowing the fields with their backs.
Industrialization is beneficial for working class mostly, the "nobility" (or government parasites) couldn't care less - they've had serfs fetching drinks for them all day long.

[Anonymous No.18611180]

>>18608375

[Anonymous No.18611196]

>>18609314
This isn't the fifties. The boomer economy is dead and has been dead a long time.

[Anonymous No.18611197]

>>18611171
>you should be grateful!!!
>serfs definitely only slaved themselves away!!
>how do I know this!? Well, my liberal econ professor told me

[Anonymous No.18611232]

>>18609314
Depends where you live.
I hear horror stories from American slaves where they're frightened to even take days off. They work for years without taking a vacation or just a few days off to catch a break

[Anonymous No.18611286]

>>18611171
A slave, just because he sits in a comfortable chair and has the possibility of ingesting caffeine, is no less a slave.

[Anonymous No.18611296]

>>18611286
He is not a slave if he can quit at any time

[Anonymous No.18611354]

>>18611296
>296▶
>>>18611286
>He is not a slave if he can quit at any time
there is a black hole in your brain

[Anonymous No.18611439]

>>18608520
>Confederacy of Dunces
It's been a while since I read, but doesn't he just NEET around and the one time he does work he tries to incite a black race riot?

[Anonymous No.18611482]

>>18611354
Kid, I understand that a "wageslave" is a nice, catchy phrase but when you start to actually discuss things with adults you must stick to some thousands years old words' definitions understood by everybody, everywhere, every-time and not change them as you see fit.
You may be a "wageslave" but you are not a slave.

[Anonymous No.18611528]

a book from 1856 by a Southerner who explains why capitalist wage slavery was more inhumane and exploitative than chattel slavery.
>We are all, North and South, engaged in the White Slave Trade, and he who succeeds best is esteemed most respectable. It is far more cruel than the Black Slave Trade, because it exacts more of its slaves, and neither protects nor governs them. We boast that it exacts more when we say, “that the profits made from employing free labor are greater than those from slave labor.” The profits, made from free labor, are the amount of the products of such labor, which the employer, by means of the command which capital or skill gives him, takes away, exacts, or “expatiates” from the fee laborer. The profits of slave labor are that portion of the products of such labor which the power of the master enables him to appropriate. These profits are less, because the master allows the slave to retain a larger share of the results of his own labor than do the employers of free labor…
>When the day’s labor is ended, he is free, but is overburdened with the cares of family and household, which makes his freedom an empty and delusive mockery…The Negro slave is free, too, when the labors of the day are over, and free in mind as well as body; for the master provides food, raiment, house, fuel and everything else necessary to the physical well-being of himself and his family.
>The Negro slaves of the South are the happiest, and, in some sense, the freest people in the world. The children and the aged and infirm work not at all, and yet have all the comforts and necessaries of life provided for them. They enjoy liberty, because they are oppressed neither by care nor labor. The women do little hard work, and are protected from the despotism of their husband by their masters. The Negro men and stout boys work, on the average, in good weather, not more than nine hours a day. The balance of their time is spent in perfect abandon. The free laborer must work or starve. He is more a slave than the Negro because he works longer and harder for less allowance than the slave, and has no holiday, because the cares of his life with him begin when its labors end. He has no liberty, and not a single right.

[Anonymous No.18611538]

>>18609314
It's more about the work is unsatisfying, and ultimately gets you no where. Hard work used to be needed to survive, or get you ahead in the world, so you can enjoy life. Now it does neither, just an endless loop of misery.

[Anonymous No.18611543]

>>18609314
Working for a soulless company that underpays and overworks you. Having to live paycheck by paycheck and only squeaking out enough to buy cigs and vidya. Having no love for what you do, and losing passion for living because you know that one day you'll look back on the life that was elongated by medical advancements, was also only alloed to do so for some higher up's benefit. All these reasons and more are why I contemplate suicide frequently.

[Anonymous No.18611552]

[Anonymous No.18611555]

>>18611528
>The Negro slaves of the South are the happiest, and, in some sense, the freest people in the world.
Why am I not surprised that this is the commies' sentiment.

[Anonymous No.18611557]

American Psycho is about when you turn your life 100% over to the belief and pursuit of wageslaving

[Anonymous No.18611561]

>>18611555
that's not a commie you tard. he was an ideologue of the southern plantation owners. his job was to justify why slavery shouldn't be abolished

[Anonymous No.18611577]

>>18611561
Possibly, but you commies approve his words.
And I've said "possibly" because communism was pretty accurately already described in 1841 by (an American) Clinton Roosevelt in his "The science of government", so you never know.

[Anonymous No.18611618]

>>18611577
we don't. communists have no basis to agree that "The Negro slaves of the South are the happiest, and, in some sense, the freest people in the world." far from it

[Anonymous No.18611742]

>>18608375
>The slave owners argued, “You take better care of a slave if you own it than if you rent it.” Like, you take better care of your car if you own it than if you rent it, so you take better care of your worker if you own it than if you rent it—so slavery’s benevolent and “free market” is morally atrocious. And the slave owners in fact said, “Look, we’re a lot more benevolent than you guys with your capitalist wage-slave system.” And if you look back at the literature by workers who organized into, say, the Knights of Labor and other working-class organizations of the late nineteenth century, you’ll also see a strain running through their position which said: “We fought to end slavery, not to impose it” [i.e. the industrial wage-labor system became dominant after the Civil War].
>If capital is privately controlled, then people are going to have to rent themselves in order to survive. Now, you can say, “they rent themselves freely, it’s a free contract”—but that’s a joke. If your choice is, “do what I tell you or starve,” that’s not a choice—it’s in fact what was commonly referred to as wage slavery in more civilized times, like the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, for example.

[Anonymous No.18611748]

>>18611742
>In 1831 there was a big slave revolt in Jamaica—which was one of the things that led the British to decide to give up slavery in their colonies: after some slave revolts, they basically said, “It’s not paying anymore.” So within a couple years the British wanted to move from a slave economy to a so-called “free” economy, but they still wanted the basic structure to remain exactly the same—and if you take a look back at the parliamentary debates in England at the time, they were talking very consciously about all this. They were saying: look, we’ve got to keep it the way it is, the masters have to become the owners, the slaves have to become the happy workers—somehow we’ve got to work it all out. Well, there was a little problem in Jamaica: since there was a lot of open land there, when the British let the slaves go free they just wanted to move out onto the land and be perfectly happy, they didn’t want to work for the British sugar plantations anymore. So what everyone was asking in Parliament in London was, “How can we force them to keep working for us, even when they’re no longer enslaved into it?” Alright, two things were decided upon: first, they would use state force to close off the open land and prevent people from going and surviving on their own. And secondly, they realized that since all these workers didn’t really want a lot of things—they just wanted to satisfy their basic needs, which they could easily do in that tropical climate—the British capitalists would have to start creating a whole set of wants for them, and make them start desiring things they didn’t then desire, so then the only way they’d be able to satisfy their new material desires would be by working for wages in the British sugar plantations.

[Anonymous No.18611757]

>>18609314
Nice bait

[Anonymous No.18611956]

>>18609314
>why wageslaving is considered bad again?
Working at all is bad according to commies.
They want others to work for them.

[Anonymous No.18611988]

>>18609314
There isn't anything wrong with it for most people, problem is is that its becoming increasingly hard for workers to live this kind of simplistic stress-free life.

[Anonymous No.18612008]

>>18611956
Marx:
>In a rational state of society every child whatever, from the age of 9 years, ought to become a productive labourer in the same way that no able-bodied adult person ought to be exempted from the general law of nature, viz.: to work in order to be able to eat, and work not only with the brain but with the hands too.

[Anonymous No.18612013]

>>18611988
"stress-free life"
Kek

[Anonymous No.18612073]

>>18612008
Sure, labor was mandatory in the USSR (and basically unpaid).
That's not what communists want though - they want a legendary "post scarcity world" where everybody works as long as he pleases or not at all.
They cannot fathom that only way to avoid the necessity of work at some point is to double down on capitalism, industrialization and automation - not going back to some "primitive communism" or renamed feudalism.

[Anonymous No.18612107]

>>18608375
Anybody read this? Is it any good?

[Anonymous No.18612173]

>>18612107
If it says David Graeber, it’s good.

[Anonymous No.18612183]

>>18611296
>he can quit at any time
>you have the freedom to work or starve, stop complaining!!!

[Anonymous No.18612199]

>>18612183
In communism you will work and starve.

[Anonymous No.18612213]

>>18612073
>Sure, labor was mandatory in the USSR (and basically unpaid).
it was mandatory for everyone except personal capitalists and paid, just like in any other capitalist state
>That's not what communists want though - they want a legendary "post scarcity world" where everybody works as long as he pleases or not at all.
I literally quoted the communist par excellence Karl Marx to you: "no able-bodied adult person ought to be exempted from the general law of nature, viz.: to work in order to be able to eat". are you illiterate or just pretending?
>They cannot fathom that only way to avoid the necessity of work at some point is to double down on capitalism
and rightfully so. capitalists need to extract surplus-value from the working class in order to profit. that's why working hours rarely decrease in productive jobs and if they do, it's compensated with increased intensity.
>not going back to some "primitive communism"
communists don't think going back to "primitive communism" is even possible, because primitive communism corresponded to a level of development of productive forces that has been long surpassed. do you get your knowledge about communism from 14 year olds on twitter?

[Anonymous No.18612359]

>>18612213
>personal capitalists
You redefine words again like in 1984. "slavery is freedom" "when communism doesn't deliver it is capitalism" etc
>and paid
Money was worthless, higher quality goods like houses and cars (sometimes even gasoline) were distributed by talons granted by party apparatchiks, for common goods you essentially had to barter, because - well, money was worthless. There were also separate talons for food occasionally due to shortages.
>I literally quoted the communist par excellence Karl Marx to you: "no able-bodied adult person ought to be exempted
Marx himself didn't work in the first place (he didn't even finish Capital vol 2 till the end of his life - that's 20 years or so) and I am explaining to you the deranged mind of a modern communist - they can establish a commune and "work in order to eat" anytime they want, but they won't.
>capitalists need to extract surplus-value from the working class in order to profit.
Capitalists need workers, workers need capitalists, duh. It's called the division of labor and it's good. If you didn't keep your head in you ass during your whole adolescence you would know that this is exactly the thing that let us build advanced civilizations.
Btw, this solves an another puzzle that's too big for communists' small brains: workers do "wageslave" because they benefit from the division of labor as well; alternatives are worse for them.
>do you get your knowledge about communism from 14 year olds on twitter?
You cite Marx when it fits your crookery, but now you say that communists "akhually" don't care about Marx. Your deviousness is boring, but I am used to this commie nonsense since I live in a post communist country (if you can call this ruin a country) - to answer you question. You should learn from me, not try to teach me.

[Anonymous No.18612369]

>>18612183
Thats pretty much any system though

[Anonymous No.18612400]

You anti-wagies pushing the NEET lifestyle never seem to talk much about how you get money to survive.

[Anonymous No.18612405]

>>18608375
Helbling's Story by Robert Walser

[Anonymous No.18612408]

>>18612199
False dichotomy, americuck directionbrain.

[Anonymous No.18612425]

>>18611171
>Bukowski
>Commie

[Anonymous No.18612428]

>>18612400
You wagies never seem to talk about how you only get enough money to survive.

[Anonymous No.18612431]

>>18612400
Mom, Disability, or a Scandinavian paradise

[Anonymous No.18612448]

>>18608375
Bullshit Jobs by Graeber
Let's Destroy Work by Bonanno
Workers and Capital by Tronti
Capitalism and schizophrenia by Deleuze
Manuscripts of 1844 by Marx

You can also talk to anyone having a job and you'll find some nice antiwage ideas

[Anonymous No.18612456]

i havent received a pay rise in over two years. i know i should quit but im afraid the other job will be even worse since it seems that with every new job my life gets more shit

[Anonymous No.18612462]

>>18609314
In theory, I guess it’s not. All I can say is that my job makes me want to kill myself. Actually. I don’t even have an easy time explaining what it is. It’s just so mentally and spiritually painful and I feel like I have to constantly walk on egg shells, wear this mask that I don’t want to wear, and just diminish my life over and over again a million times until I die of a heart attack. There’s like this constant reminder that I’m a slave and my life is worthless. Every moment is painful.

[Anonymous No.18612477]

>>18612013
I mean the stresses of precarity, workplace policing and poor wages.
Your reply is incredibly adolescent.

[Anonymous No.18612489]

>>18612462
You’re not alone in that.

[Anonymous No.18612493]

>>18609314
Mainly because pay is shit. Waging ain’t what it used to be 60 years ago

[Anonymous No.18612499]

>>18612462
>>18612477
>>18612489
i'm a prison guard, the state pays me decently to walk around with a baton and cs gas and act like a combine npc from half life. you guys should try to get jobs like that at small little jails where you won't get murdered

[Anonymous No.18612501]

>>18612359
>You redefine words... "when communism doesn't deliver it is capitalism"
communism and communists society were already fully understood at the time of Marx and I'm using the same understanding he was using. communism didn't "not deliver" in Russia. it was defeated due to tactical errors regarding the West and due to the disproportion between the peasantry and the proletariat in the East.
>Money was worthless
no it wasn't? you're just making shit up. the workers were paid in money and they bought means of consumption with that money in stores. the peasants sold produce for money on kolkhoz markets:
>The kolkhoz market is in essence a free market to which agricultural producers bring food products for sale to individual private consumers at prices determined by local supply and demand conditions. While I shall later have occasion to qualify and elaborate various elements of this definition, it serves adequately to describe the more than 8000 kolkhoz markets in the USSR today. A significant share of total private consumption passes through these markets, while income from market sales forms the major share of the kolkhozniki's (collective-farmers') money income. [Whitman (1956). The kolkhoz market.]

>Marx himself didn't work in the first place
he did. but even if he didn't, that would not have been relevant, since he wasn't living in a communist society.
>he didn't even finish Capital vol 2
he finished it in terms of content, just not in terms of the presentation.
>and I am explaining to you the deranged mind of a modern communist - they can establish a commune and "work in order to eat" anytime they want, but they won't
communism has nothing to do with some hippie communes within capitalist society except for a similar name. you bring up this random shit just to pivot away from the fact that I disproved your fantasy about communists wanting a society where you don't work if you don't want to.
>Capitalists need workers, workers need capitalists, duh.
workers need capitalists only as long as they're separated from the means of production by means of state force
>If you didn't keep your head in you ass during your whole adolescence you would know that this is exactly the thing that let us build advanced civilizations.
no, I agree. and it will let us build an even more advanced civilization: a communist one. thanks capitalism, I appreciate it.
>workers do "wageslave" because they benefit from the division of labor as well; alternatives are worse for them.
obviously if your alternative to wage slaving is starvation because you have no access to means of production, then the alternatives are worse. but that will change
>You cite Marx when it fits your crookery, but now you say that communists "akhually" don't care about Marx.
what? I never said that. do you understand how painfully obvious it is that you're just deflecting?
>but I am used to this commie nonsense since I live in a post communist country
me too. spoiler: it was never communist

[Anonymous No.18612554]

>>18612499
At least you are standing and moving during your job. That’s already better than a desk

[Anonymous No.18612672]

>>18611296
nice bait

[Anonymous No.18612682]

>>18608375

[Anonymous No.18612783]

>>18612501
>me too. spoiler: it was never communist
If guys running these countries had strayed from marxist thought they were losing their lives. They've tried *everything* which could _still_ fit within their theoretical framework (EVEN allowing some market price discovery) and could not make it work. We could argue which one of us two knows "communism" better but THEM - they've spend their lives on this. It doesn't work, period.

[Anonymous No.18612787]

>>18611528
Calhoun (was was basically Marx before Marx, though today's leftists will vomit at the thought) said this much better and with greater force:

>There never has yet existed a wealthy and civilized society in which one portion of the community did not, in point of fact, live on the labor of the other.

And

>But I take higher ground. I hold that in the present state of civilization, where two races of different origin, and distinguished by color, and other physical differences, as well as intellectual, are brought together, the relation now existing in the slaveholding States between the two, is, instead of an evil, a good–a positive good. I feel myself called upon to speak freely upon the subject where the honor and interests of those I represent are involved. I hold then, that there never has yet existed a wealthy and civilized society in which one portion of the community did not, in point of fact, live on the labor of the other. Broad and general as is this assertion, it is fully borne out by history. This is not the proper occasion, but, if it were, it would not be difficult to trace the various devices by which the wealth of all civilized communities has been so unequally divided, and to show by what means so small a share has been allotted to those by whose labor it was produced, and so large a share given to the non-producing classes. The devices are almost innumerable, from the brute force and gross superstition of ancient times, to the subtle and artful fiscal contrivances of modern. I might well challenge a comparison between them and the more direct, simple, and patriarchal mode by which the labor of the African race is, among us, commanded by the European. I may say with truth, that in few countries so much is left to the share of the laborer, and so little exacted from him, or where there is more kind attention paid to him in sickness or infirmities of age. Compare his condition with the tenants of the poor houses in the more civilized portions of Europe–look at the sick, and the old and infirm slave, on one hand, in the midst of his family and friends, under the kind superintending care of his master and mistress, and compare it with the forlorn and wretched condition of the pauper in the poorhouse. But I will not dwell on this aspect of the question; I turn to the political; and here I fearlessly assert that the existing relation between the two races in the South, against which these blind fanatics are waging war, forms the most solid and durable foundation on which to rear free and stable political institutions. It is useless to disguise the fact. There is and always has been in an advanced stage of wealth and civilization, a conflict between labor and capital.

[Anonymous No.18612835]

>>18609314
>40 hours of labors for 4 hours of hanging out with friends on the weekend
Shit deal, I refuse.
>missus
You know there isn't one.

[Anonymous No.18612857]

>>18612783
>If guys running these countries had strayed from marxist thought they were losing their lives.
where? in the parallel universe where Stalin gets whacked after enshrining private property in the Soviet constitution and calling that socialism?
for you "Marxist thought" amounts to liking the color red and saying "bourgeoisie" a lot, because you're unfamiliar with its actual content, as you already demonstrated throughout this thread. this explains why you might think they were following Marxism, but it doesn't make it true nonetheless.
>They've tried *everything* which could _still_ fit within their theoretical framework (EVEN allowing some market price discovery)
I love how even "market price discovery" "fits" within "theoretical" framework of "Marxist thought", despite Karl Marx himself explicitly having wrote that
>Within the co-operative society based on common ownership of the means of production, the producers do not exchange their products; just as little does the labor employed on the products appear there as the value of these products, as a material quality possessed by them, since now, in contrast to capitalist society, individual labor no longer exists in an indirect fashion but directly as a component part of total labor.

[Anonymous No.18612933]

>>18612857
>where?
Look no further than Lenin who was killed after after his NEP concessions. Which were necessary because no private property at all (full communism) cannot sustain 20th century level of populations.
You don't know what you're talking about, if the Communist Party congress delegates (and leaders) could not justify their propositions with Marx citations they would end up in Gulags. INB4 there were no Gulags
>despite Karl Marx himself explicitly having wrote that
Another case of a communist who didn't go as far as Capital vol.3 which deals with market prices. Comrade, you are dead already with such counter-revolutionary provocations. Take off your belt and wait.

[Anonymous No.18612974]

>>18612400
Europeans just get money easily. Americans and everyone else can’t do that. This board is mostly Americans, Europeans, and other New Worlders.

[Anonymous No.18612982]

>>18612499
I did security for a while in college but I’m not sure that I would want a job like that again. I really want to quit and try to make a living off writing while I live at home. If I need a day job I’ll be happy doing labor or something. I’ve also considered teaching to go abroad. It might also suck but at least the change in environment should be interesting.

[Anonymous No.18613022]

>>18612933
>Lenin who was killed after his NEP concessions
that's a new one, but let's leave that aside.
NEP wasn't contrary to Marxism. Lenin was clear that it wasn't economically socialist. and he was correct that the concessions were necessary
>Which were necessary because no private property at all (full communism) cannot sustain 20th century level of populations.
no, they were necessary because Russia was ruined by a civil war and there was no help from the industrialized West. in effect, the Russian proletarian state lacked the strength to keep the enormous petty bourgeoisie completely subdued. the only way to keep the power in proletarian hands was to give concessions to the petty bourgeoisie, hoping that help will arrive within a few years and that the struggle between poor peasant semi-proletarians and rich peasants will develop, strengthening the proletarian side.
>You don't know what you're talking about, if the Communist Party congress delegates (and leaders) could not justify their propositions with Marx citations they would end up in Gulags.
behold, Stalin himself proving your point wrong in 1080p:
>If you want to seek answers for everything in Marx you will get nowhere. You have in front of you a laboratory such as the USSR which has existed now for more than 20 years but you think that Marx ought to be knowing more than you about socialism. Do you not understand that in the Critique of the Gotha Programme Marx was not in a position to foresee! It is necessary to use one's head and not string citations together. New facts are there, there is a new combination of forces -- and if you don't mind -- one has to use one's brains.

>Another case of a communist who didn't go as far as Capital vol.3 which deals with market prices.
I did. I don't understand how Marx discussing the formation of market prices in capitalist production is supposed to prove they will exist in communist society. if anything, it shows the inverse: by showing what capitalist production is, Marx was simultaneously showing what communist production won't be.
you should stop bringing up random irrelevant shit to save face: 1) you're anonymous, 2) you won't be able to save it anyway

[Anonymous No.18613275]

>>18609314
It's wrong because you are trading the most scarce commodity in the world, time, for little economic benefit compared to 70 years ago.

[Anonymous No.18613308]

>>18612107
According to the reviews I read, it doesn't expand much more on his essay.

[Anonymous No.18613361]

>>18611232
that was literally me. drove me to heroin addiction. got over that, got a new job, and just lost that for drawing! assholes, cant just give me a warning? the pay sucked ass anyway. working literally open to close everyday for peanuts. barely enough to pay bills, and if something breaks (car) or i get sick? im fucked. this country sucks ass. so now im back to being a NEET for a while. at this rate i should just stick with it til either my parents die, or the Earth collapses

[Anonymous No.18613390]

>>18613361
sorry m8, that's rough. you have my prayers

[Anonymous No.18613528]

You could always just opt out, anon...

[Anonymous No.18613625]

>>18611528
>The Negro slaves of the South are the happiest, and, in some sense, the freest people in the world

Sounds like slave apologism to me

[Anonymous No.18613646]

>>18612974
>Americans and everyone else can’t do that
Depends on where you live in U.S. I've been waging while at college living at home & I've saved a decent amount of money up.

[Anonymous No.18613666]

>>18612787
>Compare his condition with the tenants of the poor houses in the more civilized portions of Europe–look at the sick, and the old and infirm slave, on one hand, in the midst of his family and friends, under the kind superintending care of his master and mistress
Yeah I'm sure slavery was actually that cozy.... Nevermind the raping, forced family separation, and mutilation if you attempted to escape.

[Anonymous No.18613693]

>>18609344
Nobody forced you to have that job. Literally do anything else, loser

[Anonymous No.18613718]

>>18613361
Move to Europe, live here for 5 years and then renounce your American citizenship. I don't know how realistic that is for you but that's what I would do if was American.
I knew an American who did that actually, not sure if they ended up renouncing though.

[Anonymous No.18613727]

>>18608375
Engels. Condition 1844.
Hammond and Hammond. Labourers
Andrle. Soviet Union works.
Haratszi. Worker in a workers state
Thompson. Time
Dubofski. Iww
Braverman. Wage labour and monopoly capital

[Anonymous No.18613736]

>>18612682
That’s about being in the army airforce.
Catch-22 is about crippling office work

[Anonymous No.18613773]

holy shit niggers I just wanted some about the shittiness of dealing with people as a wageslave, not this commie retardation

[Anonymous No.18613881]

>>18611232
But the thing is, it’s not the employers who dictate that largely, it’s the strivers that you call your peers. It happens because even though you won’t have it, they will.

[Anonymous No.18613888]

>>18613718
> just move to Europe
Not even remotely close to that simple. Americans can hardly go anywhere but Mexico.

[Anonymous No.18613904]

>>18613773
>Why is an ideology which literally exists only to justify not working showing up in my thread about why working is bad
???

[Anonymous No.18613963]

>>18613666
Because all the gin lanes were such wonderful places, and factory owners cared so much about their workers!

Anyways, Calhoun isn't saying that slaves had wonderful lives, but slave owners had far more motivation and incentive to look after their slaves' wellbeings than factory owners did their workers.

[Anonymous No.18614006]

>>18612107
i read it, it's good but as >>18613308 says, it doesn't really go beyond the original essay, just gives more examples

[Anonymous No.18614016]

>>18608375
>super lazy, always hated waging
>waged through college for my dad in his company where I worked alongside illegals and lazy ghetto folk and crackhead whites doing building maintenance, basically all sort of random janitorial jobs like cleaning windows and replacing windows and cleaning pigeon shit
>did this when I wasn’t at college getting my (useless) marine environmental science degree and my 3rd mate’s deck license
>after college get hired by the man, but because the government is the government I spend half a year filling out paperwork
>went back to work for my dad in the meantime
>felt absolutely soul crushing to after college be working for my dad, living under my dad’s roof, eating my dad’s food
>the job felt meaningless, I was a janitor who commuted four hours a day
>felt like my who life revolved around being beneath my father
>eventually the man finished my paperwork processing and my background check
>got to my job at sea, work 80 hours a week, make a crazy amount amount of money
>enjoy the work immensely, get to see the world and I’m doing what I love
>because I’m always at sea and don’t need an apartment, my dad lets me keep my stuff at his place
>at 22 I’m making 6 figures at my dream job, and because I don’t pay for rent or food or anything it all goes straight to the bank
>put a thin science fiction veil over my maritime career and use it to write a science fiction book that acts as my writing skills warmup for my actual dream story
Life is good. 80 hours waging at a job you’re passionate about is 80 hours of luxury. Just hang in there OP, I promise it’s gonna be okay

[Anonymous No.18614084]

>>18613963
You have actually (and accidentally) refuted Marx himself. It's true that the slaves in Northern America had it still better than those in South America because the ones in the South were technically not "owned" which meant that the exploitation was even more brutal. For example, they could be forced to stay the whole week day day out in a deep gold mine and come out only in Sundays - expected lifespan was only a few months. You see, the owners do care about their property and the most valuable property doesn't have an owner in communism..
Of course people cannot be owned so you cannot expect an owners' care from todays' employers, but the strongest incentive for them to actually improve working conditions is competition between them for labor services. E.g. how come that *great most* of workers actually earn MORE than legally required minimum wage? It's the power of the free market - would have been much better still if it wasn't for constant sabotage by the left.

[Anonymous No.18614173]

>finish degree in whatever
>live in non shit country, so no six figure debt
>go into teaching
>live in non shit country, so teaching is well paid
>no work all summer
>guaranteed two weeks off around the holidays
>two weeks off in spring
>two weeks off in fall
>workday ends 3:30pm at the latest
>plenty of breaks over the day
>guaranteed weekends
>volunteered to move into the boonies
>not enough teachers there, so get extra benefits
>no city means no traffic, no hour long commute
>affordable houses and cheap land, low living expenses
>gym rarely populated, so I can lift in peace
>little to no minorities
>all of this for explaining basic bitch shit to teenagers for a few hours
>no useless corporate song and dance
>no micromanaging middle managers
>principal knows shit all about my subjects so leaves me alone
>minimal contact with colleagues
>possible tenure in a few years
Do you people even try?

[Anonymous No.18614187]

>>18614173
Yeah but don’t you not get paid all summer either?

[Anonymous No.18614194]

>>18614084
how does that refute Marx?

[Anonymous No.18614207]

>>18614187
>Yeah but don’t you not get paid all summer either?
What?
What kind of shit country let's their teachers go broke over the summer?

[Anonymous No.18614217]

>>18614173
Where do you live fren?

[Anonymous No.18614218]

>>18614194
He says that private property is bad.
It's necessary for equity growth (which enables improvement of working conditions among other things). It is physically imppossible for workers to earn more if there isn't enough productive capital in the economy - no amount of "sharing" will help.

[Anonymous No.18614247]

>>18614187
Some of the states tried to pull that BS in the 90s and early 00s, ending tenure or trying to only hire part time to save money.
End result was no one went into teaching anymore as it wasn't worth it. Now all the old boomer teachers that went, "Fuck you, I got mine!", towards their younger colleagues retire and schools are scrambling to even find qualified teachers. Especially for key subjects and the states are back pedalling hard on all the anti teacher shit and are trying hard to sweeten the deal.
Lesson learned I guess.

>>18614217
One of the larger Euro countries.

[Anonymous No.18614268]

>>18611439
He also works a hot dog stand

[Anonymous No.18614301]

>>18609314
>this is your brain on capitalism

[Anonymous No.18614318]

>>18614218
>He says that private property is bad.
quote? this is not the kind of thing Marx would ever say.
>It's necessary for equity growth (which enables improvement of working conditions among other things).
the only thing needed for the improvement of working conditions is technology that already exists
>It is physically imppossible for workers to earn more if there isn't enough productive capital in the economy - no amount of "sharing" will help.
and that refutes Marx how again?

[Anonymous No.18614335]

>>18614318
>quote?
fuck off

[Anonymous No.18614349]

>>18614207
Why would you get paid if you aren’t working?
>>18614247
Makes sense that it’s easy to become a teacher. My friend who is an alcoholic that drunk drives everywhere and steals beer from high schoolers is a history teacher

[Anonymous No.18614350]

>>18614335
I thought so. it's clear you know shit all about Marx. if someone said "private property is bad" to his face he would've laughed him out of the earth's atmosphere and made him the first astronaut

[Anonymous No.18614395]

>>18614350
Yes moron, first the USSR was "akhually" capitalist for you, and now Marx was "akhually" the champion of private property (and capitalism) - but the USSR was not "really" marxist because there was some private property in there. It would have been schizophrenia if it wasn't crookery. You can fuck off as I said but I will btw:
There was a few % of privately owned farmland in the USSR so the commies now cry that this had caused the collapse because it wasn't "true communism" - in fact these miniscule plots of *privately owned* land let them survive 70 years instead of collapsing in 7 months.

[Anonymous No.18614396]

>>18614349
>Why would you get paid if you aren’t working?
a) Not my fault schools close in the summer.
b) Everyone else gets paid vacation time too. Mine just happens to be more. Everybody has the liberty of choice of vocation, thus everyone else could have that as well. Also it's technically expected that I prepare my lesson plan, etc in my time off.
c) It's called a salary. I'm not a wagie. I'm paid for my position/skills/knowledge and my work is more than the hours I run around, which is a cuck boomer mentality on top of that and backfired once already as explained.

[Anonymous No.18614426]

>>18614349
>easy to become a teacher
Who said anything about easy?
You need more than a basic bitch degree vetted by the ministry of education, my application had to be 30 pages long, I had to submit my (clean) criminal record and prove my ability to teach in several evaluated and rated demo lessons.
After that, you were vetted and evaluated again after two years on the job to test for viability.

[Anonymous No.18614451]

>>18614350
Not even worth responding to him given his limited understanding of economics in general and anything Marx actually said in particular.

FWIW I (the Calhoun poster) am no Marxist, but I have at least read him and Calhoun's writings on labor and its industrial exploitation seem to me to be clear antecedents to Marx's labor theory of value.

[Anonymous No.18614549]

>>18614395
>and now Marx was "akhually" the champion of private property (and capitalism)
he wasn't, he just examined them scientifically. and the result of science is not moral judgments like "private property is bad"
>but the USSR was not "really" marxist because there was some private property in there
it wasn't communist in terms of the mode of production because it was based upon private property, whereas a communist society is one where property has been abolished. this is a straightforward scientific judgment. "private property is bad" is a moral judgment independent of it.
>There was a few % of privately owned farmland in the USSR
in 1937, the entirety of agricultural production in the USSR came from private property:
- 9.3% from state farms, property of the soviet state
- 63.0% from kolkhozes proper, property of groups of peasants
- 21.5% from home-plots of kolkhoz members, property of individual peasants in kolkhozes
- 6.3% from individually owned homesteads
[The Economy of the Kolkhozy and of Kolkhoz-members' Homesteads at the End of the Second Five-year Plan (1942)]
>so the commies now cry that this had caused the collapse because it wasn't "true communism"
no, the transitional reforms in Russia were ultimately caused by a scarcity of capital that led it to lose capitalist competition with the West. it had nothing to do with communism.
>in fact these miniscule plots of *privately owned* land let them survive 70 years instead of collapsing in 7 months.
not really. they were quite the impediment and a more centralized and mechanized Western-style agriculture would've helped them tremendously. but, as I said, they lacked capital for this and on top of that the government depended on not pissing off the peasantry.

[Anonymous No.18614632]

>>18614549
Of course I use "private" in a dictionary sense and of course you know it. You redefine words (for the third time in this thread at least) and you do it to *confuse* your readers instead of to clarify concepts.
Communists have invented the common ownership idea (the means of production were supposedly "owned" by all workers together) to hide the fact that "ownership" means that it must be *private* by (dictionary) definition. If a village owns a car (or a factory) then no one actually owns it - it's usage must necessarily be decided by party apparatchiks and not by hundreds of "owners" together.

[Anonymous No.18614646]

My diary desu.

It's called A NEET's Tale

[Anonymous No.18614663]

>>18609314
If minimum wage was $24 an hour and the rest of the pay scale was arranged accordingly, then sure, as is, it's just a massive scam.

[Anonymous No.18614680]

>>18614349
>Why would you get paid if you aren’t working?
Good question, dividends should be illegal!

[Anonymous No.18614699]

>>18611171
>"Bro, you're cage is padded and air conditioned, you should be grateful!"
Pathetic

[Anonymous No.18614709]

>>18611171
>"Bro, your cage is padded and air conditioned, you should be grateful!"
Pathetic

[Anonymous No.18614723]

>>18613625
He explains why pretty convincingly.

[Anonymous No.18614749]

>>18609545
Yes, a slave that has:
>no hunting
>no building shelters
>healthcare (EU)
>free further part-time education (EU)
>galleries, museums, libraries
>gets a wage, so can buy shit
>can leave job for better job
>can start business
etc

[Anonymous No.18614779]

>>18608375

[Anonymous No.18614780]

>>18614632
>Of course I use "private" in a dictionary sense and of course you know it. You redefine words
you introduced "private" to tell me what Marx supposedly said about "private property". so of course Marx's understanding of private property is the one that's going to be relevant here.
>and you do it to *confuse* your readers instead of to clarify concepts.
you're confused because you're trying to have a discussion about shit you have zero knowledge about (Marxism). if you asked questions instead of asserting lies, I would've been glad to clarify things for you
>Communists have invented the common ownership idea
no, common ownership dates into prehistory
>to hide the fact that "ownership" means that it must be *private* by (dictionary) definition
which dictionary? google gives me "belonging to or for the use of one particular person or group of people only". and I agree with you. what's more, communists don't hide this. in an actual communist society not divided into private owners, the concept of ownership loses its meaning. "common ownership" in reference to it is then only a simplification, that in reality expresses the disappearance of ownership. communists use this simplification to make themselves easier to understand where the distinction is irrelevant (which is most of the time)

[Anonymous No.18614910]

>>18614780
OK, I've googled it. Marx has written:
The first positive annulment of private property – crude communism – is thus merely a manifestation of the vileness of private property, which wants to set itself up as the positive community system.
(and you said that he wasn't expressing moral judgments being a scientist). He also said:
>We have seen how on the assumption of positively annulled private property man produces man – himself and the other man.
Of course you lied but you insisted on having "quotes"

[Anonymous No.18614948]

>>18611171
>standard prison cell
>prison
>prison cell with gold bars and a few cushions
>vacation

[Anonymous No.18614955]

>Private property has made us so stupid and one-sided that an object is only ours when we have it – when it exists for us as capital, or when it is directly possessed, eaten, drunk, worn, inhabited, etc., – in short, when it is used by us.
~Marx

[Anonymous No.18614962]

>>18614948
Did you just redefine room into prison cell?

[Anonymous No.18614968]

>>18614016
No it isn't. Also what job

[Anonymous No.18614981]

>>18614962
Yes.

[Anonymous No.18615087]

>>18614968
3rd mate

[Anonymous No.18615140]

>>18608375
>are there any books about wageslavin?
No. There are books about almost everything. But not this. You do it, and you don't talk about it. It's our little secret.

[Anonymous No.18615168]

>>18611171
>the "nobility" (or government parasites) couldn't care less - they've had serfs fetching drinks for them all day long.
And they have been replaced. What's when it's the bourgeois who are useless?

[Anonymous No.18615181]

>>18612199
>In communism you will work and starve.
Yes i've known about this. I've seen the Bitchute.

[Anonymous No.18615192]

>>18612359
>workers need capitalists
You sure?

[Anonymous No.18615199]

>>18612359
>since I live in a post State Capitalist country (if you can call this ruin a country)

[Anonymous No.18615208]

>>18614910
the use of the adjective is one-sided in that quote. he developed the consideration of private property from other sides in other places in his works. however, you have implied that this was his complete view. it's as if he wrote, for example
>private property is [negative adjective] from the immediate perspective of a communism, but it is [positive adjective] in that it was the positive condition of the development of basis for communism
and you only took
>Marx said "private property is [negative adjective]"
from that

but thanks for the quote. I hope you enjoyed reading Marx for the first time

[Anonymous No.18615217]

>>18615168
The entrepreneurs risk their own money investing it in production equipment instead of spending them on chicks and drugs till the rest of their lives (I know it's hard to believe for you) and kindly offer you an opportunity of working with them. They are not your enemy.

[Anonymous No.18615223]

>>18613022
>NEP wasn't contrary to Marxism
Yes it is. It's contrary to abolition of commodity and money.

[Anonymous No.18615239]

>>18615217
>The entrepreneurs risk their own money
>their own money
Yeah right.

[Anonymous No.18615275]

>>18615239
I would guess that majority of private capital which currently exists might have really be stolen. It's a different matter, the restitution must be based on case by case basis (and property returned to legitimate owners) - not just blind stealing everything from everybody around.

[Anonymous No.18615321]

>>18613888
You honestly might have a better quality of life in Mexico

[Anonymous No.18615322]

>>18609314
There wouldn't be anything wrong with it if it weren't for the slave wages, lack of benefits, lack of respect from fucks that think they're better than you, and the lack of vacation days. I'd be fine working this type of job if they weren't paid and treated like shit. Before I left my job at subway they were trying to tell me I can't ask for the day off unless it's a medical or family emergency. Fuck you, I got tickets to FIDLAR and I'm going.

[Anonymous No.18615335]

>>18615223
commodity economy gets abolished during the dictatorship of the proletariat, not before it. and that doesn't have to proceed linearly. if the balance of power changes to the detriment of the dictatorship, then that will naturally have to come with some reversals as far as the tasks of the dictatorship go.

[Anonymous No.18615340]

>>18614173
Here comes the enrichment

[Anonymous No.18615351]

fuck work fuck bosses and fuck rich people jeff bezos should have his rocket used to launch him into the goddamn moon

[Anonymous No.18615404]

>>18608375
Brave new world

[Anonymous No.18615416]

>>18609341
Yeah, but I get to sit and work. So there.

[Anonymous No.18615424]

>>18612107
Too bad that's bullshit.

[Anonymous No.18615604]

>>18608437
Not relevant. She literally lived her entire life around working as long as possible in a convenience store. She was fanatically obsessed with it. She was written to be a near-comical robot woman.

[Anonymous No.18615857]

>>18611528
Garbage. Kill all dixies

[Anonymous No.18615908]

>he hasn't taken the government tit pill
I work for the state 40 hours a week. In actuality 10-15 of those hours are spent working. I am paid 85k a year. I have benefits, lowered taxes, retirement package, retarded bosses, and extreme job security. Most of the day I spend writing my book or 3d modeling byzantine castles and abassid mosques.
I live with my mom and save/invest about 95% of my income. I should be able to retire around age 30-35. I have 3 weeks of vacation time a year. Usually I keep only use 2 a year and then take a month long trip every two years.
What the fuck are you guys doing waging for Mr. Goldberg? Bureaucracy is final pill

[Anonymous No.18615913]

>>18608375

Want to Read
Rate this book
1 of 5 stars2 of 5 stars3 of 5 stars4 of 5 stars5 of 5 stars
Open Preview
Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting by in America
by Barbara Ehrenreich

[Anonymous No.18615920]

>>18615913
>Want to Read
>Rate this book
>1 of 5 stars2 of 5 stars3 of 5 stars4 of 5 stars5 of 5 stars
>Open Preview
Don't know about this garbage I copy and pasted the book title from good reads

Thee book is

Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting by in America
by Barbara Ehrenreich

[Anonymous No.18616975]

>>18615908
I'm even better than you. I collect welfare, work at most five hours a week writing various welfare applications and grant proposals, and spend the rest of my time writing poetry, hiking, or sailing on one of my many boats. I also have a couple of side businesses I run under the table for extra cash. I live independently from my parents and already live as though I'm retired at the tender age of 25.

[Anonymous No.18617004]

>>18615275
A lot of it also doesn't exist and is pure speculation.

[Anonymous No.18617052]

>>18608375
Today is my first day as wage cuck, I hoped for a more physical work to do, like moving papers from building to building but they want me to work at a PC. All of this for the legal minimum wage.

[Anonymous No.18618114]

>>18609314
>der ewige Boomer

[Anonymous No.18618698]

>>18609341
neetchads rise up

[Anonymous No.18618920]

>>18608520
that fat fuck does 0 work if I tried anything he does they would kick me out in an hour

[Anonymous No.18618982]

>>18609314
>working 5 days out of 7 every week
>Time, the one thing you can NEVER get back, slipping by
>work is more often than not very boring, unfulfilling, and not truly contributing to man's growth and development.
We aren't working to perfect our crafts anymore, we sit at desks and move numbers in excel spreadsheets so that someone can make a few extra cents.
I wouldn't mind working hard and for long hours, if I was a doctor or nurse and actually helping people, or maybe a sailor or a farmer who helps feed the population. Being a Wagie is about being an office drone or fast food worker who wastes their energy in a meaningless task for little gain.

[Anonymous No.18618997]

>>18612428
Yeah, so? All the more reason to ask where you're getting your money from

[Anonymous No.18619048]

>>18608375
http://ruthlesscriticism.com/wagelaborindex.htm

[Anonymous No.18619149]

obligatory

Read this while working 6 day weeks in a kitchen in lockdown kek

[Anonymous No.18619254]

>>18609314
I’ve found my job become a lot less soul crushing when I stopped browsing threads like this.

[Anonymous No.18619464]

>>18609314
There is nothing wrong with it. A lot of the neets here live in a self imposed prison and cope by calling it freedom. So long as you are dependent you are not free. I'm finding that private contracting is the way to real freedom. Hard work and responsibility, but totally self made and self sufficent.

[Anonymous No.18619480]

>>18618982
>we
Speak for yourself

[Anonymous No.18619503]

>>18608425
>not smart enough to escape wageslavery
>despite not being smart enough, thinks he is somehow above wageslavery or deserves better
>calls out to "somebody" to help rather than use his own guile and brains to do it himself

You're exactly where you're supposed to be, wagey.

[Anonymous No.18619516]

>>18618982
>if I was a doctor or nurse and actually helping people, or maybe a sailor or a farmer who helps feed the population.

You can literally be any of those things.

[Anonymous No.18619526]

>>18612008
>>18612213
That's all well and good, but in that case, why was Marx a journalist / drifter for his whole life?
All I see is yet another case of "After the revolution I'll be in the People's Press Corps :D" just like the worst faggot layabouts of today

[Anonymous No.18619578]

>>18619526
he put most of his effort into communism. are you asking why a communist put most of his effort into communism?

[Anonymous No.18619632]

>>18619578
No, I'm saying that it's easy for him to say so when he was basically an idle intellectual himself, just like today.
Also, since spiteful bitching comes as naturally as breathing to that type of personality, I wouldn't really phrase it in terms of effort either.

[Anonymous No.18619692]

>>18619526
>>18619578
also, what Marx said in that quote is an anathema to the "After the revolution I'll be X" internet faggotry. they typically insist on some hyperspecific retarded low-effort profession, like "I'll be the tarot reader" and if you press them, they'll always claim that one won't have to work if one doesn't want to (or they'll evade by claiming that every single person will voluntarily do every single thing required of them). Marx, on the other hand, is clear there that every able-bodied person will be compelled to engage in work of all kinds (manual labour for everyone)

>>18619632
>No, I'm saying that it's easy for him to say so when he was basically an idle intellectual himself
he wasn't idle. and if it's easier to say for anyone, then it's for those who do garbage manual work for 10 hours a day, because it would mean their burden would lessen significantly.
but the facts about the basic constitution of a communist society doesn't depend on one German's particular activity within a capitalist society, no matter what he does. so I don't see any connection.

[Anonymous No.18619738]

>>18615908
What's your job?

[Anonymous No.18619846]

>>18614749
As an European, I can say that's all fluff.
>no hunting
>no building shelters
We haven't had the need for that since 4000 BC.
>healthcare (EU)
>free further part-time education (EU)
It comes from the taxpayers or in other words, your pocket. Nothing is free.
>galleries, museums, libraries
You still have to pay for that and honestly, you can't fully appreciate it when you are surrounded by dozens of other people unless you are willing to pay thousands of euros for after hour tours.
>gets a wage, so can buy shit
"Consume product and get excited for next product!"
>can leave job for better job
That's just an illusion of freedom
>can start business
You can but you are very likely to fail, especially during financial recessions like the Chinese virus pandemic. Look at all the small business owners who had to close shop. That's to not even mention how hard is to get your business started and become profitable in the EU compared to the US.

[Anonymous No.18620307]

>>18609314
You're selling your life for a pittance.

[Anonymous No.18620434]

>>18620307
Wow! What a pittance on which you can afford digital devices manufactured from the Earth's butchered gut-essence, all across the world!! You must be really poor and underprivileged!!! :))