/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.18602224]

were they fags?

[Anonymous No.18602235]

Well yeah, was the scene in the iliad where they sixty-nined before being called to battle not enough to convince you?

[Anonymous No.18602321]

>>18602224
Probably most likely. But, if you like to think of them as just the best of friends and the text is more meaningful to you this way than do it. I dont think that this interpretation is necessarily false.
If you have experienced such a close and deep friendship with someone and can relate to the Illiad better if you imagine them as friends thats fine.
I myself am a sodomite so I imagine them to be sodomites too.

[Anonymous No.18602325]

No

[Anonymous No.18602332]

>>18602325
Do you happen to be christian?

[Anonymous No.18602337]

>>18602224
Of course, it's not even subtle.

Ass fucking (especially with younger submissive boys) was the norm in ancient Greece, even romantic love with them. Women were regarded as retarded baby factories.

[Anonymous No.18602349]

>>18602337
Βάσει

[Anonymous No.18602361]

The intellectual elites were. The commoners not necessarily.

[Anonymous No.18602379]

>>18602337
Intercrural was more common than plain assfucking and homosexuality was primarily a thing for the urban elite so it wasn't exactly the norm, just quite common. Also, non-citizen women and hetaires had a degree of self-agency.

[Anonymous No.18602469]

No nothing in the Iliad supports this. Classical Greeks thought this, but it doesn't mean it was part of Homeric/Dark Ages Greek culture.
The only sexuality Achilles and Patroclus show is towards their female slaves. Their one "sex scene" has both of them laying with female slaves, just in the same tent. Merely a wholesome bonding moment between two buddies.

[Anonymous No.18602518]

>>18602337
Ironically, you're completely wrong. Anal sex was absolutely heinous to the Greeks; Pederastic relationships involved the hands and the thighs (which were considered the part of the body most indicative of the beauties of early manhood).

>>18602469
No, the Greeks did not. Look at the fucking OP pic. Look at Patroclus' cock. Do you see his cockhead? No? Well, there you go. They weren't fags.
>b-b-but-
In Ancient Greece, a long prepuce was considered a sign of regality and nobility. In artistic depiction, the cock-head is only exposed in sexual scenarios. There is not a single depiction of Patroclus or Achilles with exposed cockheads. There is not a single line in the Iliad that indicates any kind of sexual relationship. I mean for fuck's sake Achilles SON is there with him, and he (Achilles) takes a concubine.

Yes, it is true, the Romans, arguing that they were the descendants of the Trojans, held that Achilles was a filthy degenerate and a pervert for daring to raise a hand against glorious Troy. That is because they viewed this (supposed) sexual degeneracy as a BAD thing.
>b-b-but-
Anon we're talking about people who thought running around naked was fine as long as no one saw your cockhead, so they'd pierce their foreskins with a pin in order to keep it shut when engaged in exercise. These people didn't think like Modern Americans do.

[Anonymous No.18602539]

>>18602224
Not in the Iliad.

[Anonymous No.18602556]

>>18602337
>Women were regarded as retarded baby factories.
Wow you're actually retarded. Read a fucking book I swear, it's not even an argument about whether homosexual relations were accepted in ancient Greece (and it is a more complicated topic than just yes/no) anymore, like you literally know nothing about ancient Greece and are just imagining a fairy land. I don't even have to argue with you, the fact that you think there wasn't a romantic appreciation for women says enough, you haven't read even the basics.

[Anonymous No.18602559]

>>18602224
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Greece

[Anonymous No.18602569]

>>18602224

only the submissive is a fag

[Anonymous No.18602574]

>>18602224
No, but Ancient Greeks thought they were.

[Anonymous No.18602584]

>purifies your Greece
Both top and bottom are gay, both top and bottom are stained by the encounter.

[Anonymous No.18602601]

>>18602584
Have you read the Lysis, Symposium, Phaedrus?

[Anonymous No.18602630]

>>18602601
Yes I have in fact, and I can only assume your reason for mentioning this dialogues is "b- but they mentioned homosexual relationships!!!" which is an enormously reductive interpretation of these dialogues, especially the Phaedrus which outright says the relationships between men should not be sexual. My specific statement is taken from the Laws however, where Plato states all who engage in the sexual act are disgraced. It would do you good if you read the Laws along with these other dialogues.

[Anonymous No.18602641]

>>18602337
Based and redpilled

[Anonymous No.18602643]

>>18602630
I am aware that in his last dialogue Plato seemed to has flipped his stance on same sex relationships. in the symposium If Im not mistaken he calls same sex lovers to be the most blessed of the mortals.

[Anonymous No.18602650]

>>18602643
He was reffering to males lovers.

[Anonymous No.18602684]

>>18602643
In the Symposium he also has Socrates reject Alcibiades when the latter crawls into his bed.
Does anyone recall which character calls same sex lovers the most blessed of mortals? Is it the guy who believes that humans used to be shaped like wheels and roll around at high velocity? It's been a while since I read it.

[Anonymous No.18602721]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Homosexuality was illegal in some Greek cities. It became normalized in Athens, but that didn't mean "they" were gay. Some were, most weren't, artists and writers were gay so we see an over representation of homos in Greek lit and art. Most likely, modern America has more gays as a percentage of the population, and a higher level of normalization of gays in culture, than the ancient Greeks ever had. It's dishonest to reduce the complexities of the ancient world to simply "they were/weren't gay"; the world doesn't work like that.

[Anonymous No.18602724]

>>18602643
But at the same time, people seem to not remember this is the dialogue where Plato uses the term erotic in the broader term of desire, there is an eros for philosophy and so on. The Symposium, like most of Plato's early-middle dialogue views on homosexuality, always has a direction to a non-sexual relationship between male "lovers," even the Charmides, wherein one could have predicted Plato to end up with the completely rejecting view he has in the Laws.

One also has to admit the stupidity of claiming all male friendship in ancient Greece include sexuality.

[Anonymous No.18602726]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Homosexuality was illegal in some Greek cities. It became normalized in Athens, but that didn't mean "they" were gay. Some were, most weren't, artists and writers were likely gay at a higher rate so we see an over representation of homos in Greek lit and art. Most likely, modern America has more gays as a percentage of the population, and a higher level of normalization of gays in culture, than the ancient Greeks ever had. It's dishonest to reduce the complexities of the ancient world to simply "they were/weren't gay"; the world doesn't work like that.

[Anonymous No.18602788]

>>18602726
Every boy would get boipussy in Plato's Republic, anon. This is what they took from you.

[Anonymous No.18602797]

>>18602788
Basically this. Every anti-platonist should be publicly executed.

[Anonymous No.18602799]

>>18602788
We will take your lives. Lol

[Anonymous No.18602812]

>>18602788
>>18602797

[Anonymous No.18602832]

Weren't athens greeks super mysoginistic or something? I guess that some of them were fags, they just disregarded women as imperfect, therefore males were better, and a rational relationship with a male was considered based while those with women a necessary evil

[Anonymous No.18602841]

>>18602832
>while those with women a necessary evil
I don't think anyone believed this anon. If they did, they were an outlier.

[Anonymous No.18602843]

>>18602224
Not in the modern sense of the word, but they definetely smooched and touched each other's peepees

>>18602325
>>18602469
>>18602518
>>18602539
>>18602574
Stay mad

[Anonymous No.18602847]

>>18602832
No, Plato invented feminism.

[Anonymous No.18602856]

>>18602224
>The redemption of woman into participation in the nature of man is the outcome of christian-Germanic evolution. The Greek remained in ignorance of the psychic process of the ennobling of woman to the rank of man, To him everything appeared under its direct, unmediated aspect,—woman to him was woman, and man was man; and thus at the point where his love to woman was satisfied in accordance with nature, arose the spiritual demand for man.

[Anonymous No.18602861]

>>18602584
>>18602724
But the Lysis ends with Socrates discounting all his ideas of what real loving friendship is between men.
The "Charmides" begins with Socrates lusting over Charmides hot teenage abs, Alcibiades waltzes in halfway through the Symposium and recounts his attempts to seduce Socrates into his bed. I wouldn't discount it outright.

Plato, through his dialogues, offers us his gauntlet of contradictions to reflect on. For instance, take Socrates' daemon which inspires him to speak a truth we are inclined to believe through the force of his conviction. He is convinced by this truth and forced to speak it.
Then take the spiritual conviction of Ion, whom Socrates practically mocks for reciting passages of Homer which Ion takes to be true by mere conviction; but on cold analysis has little going for it.

[Anonymous No.18602864]

>>18602847
Plato said something like "women should be like men to be less imperfect"
Also that was "created" because it wasn't the rule there
That's not really feminism.

[Anonymous No.18603436]

>>18602864
Found the woman, this was such an obvious bait, anon.

[Anonymous No.18603606]

>>18602224
The poem originated in an era in which the people that we would later know as Greeks where completely different to their descendants, who would live in what we know as classical era, and who would put the epics to writing.
The answer is: we will never know.

[Anonymous No.18603617]

>>18603606
But from what we have nothing is explicitly sexual.

[Anonymous No.18603762]

>>18602843
>stay mad
stay in fantasy land aka 4cheddit