/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.18571656]

>Thanks to his Promethean ambition, Wagner achieved the singular feat of both subverting the inspired individualism at the core of his century’s romantic tradition and fulfilling the romantics’ paradoxical ambition of formulating new principles for achieving collective domination.

Is he right?

[Anonymous No.18571681]

How come nobody's ambitious like Wagner any more? Nobody ever just flat out says, "I'm great and I'm going to make great works of art" any more. Nobody ever sets out to write the greatest music, or the greatest poetry, or the greatest anything, any more. It feels like since the end of the Cold War, almost, we've had no artists in the West that assert their genius and set out to alter the course of their arts.

[Anonymous No.18571704]

>>18571681
Wagner was a pathological narcissist and a sociopath (just see how he mercilessly used his closest friends). Bach could outclass him in every regard while living a much harsher life, and he never had to resort to pathological behaviours (like Wagner did) to do so.

[Anonymous No.18571713]

>>18571681
I will anon, you'll see my name out there one day. Maybe not for writing a literary work but I'll be out in the public sphere.

[Anonymous No.18571793]

>>18571704
>Wagner was a pathological narcissist and a sociopath (just see how he mercilessly used his closest friends)
Ughh could I get a sauce for this? People always so this but their reasons for doing so only ever amount to "b- but he ran away from his creditors! But he had an affair!!!" which isn't unusual behaviour for artists.

>Bach could outclass him in every regard
Maybe if you're retarded and don't understand the history of music. Bach and Wagner are doing completely different things, and to ignore Wagner's musical originality only shows your own ignorance.

[Anonymous No.18571827]

>>18571793
>Ughh could I get a sauce for this? People always so this but their reasons for doing so only ever amount to "b- but he ran away from his creditors! But he had an affair!!!" which isn't unusual behaviour for artists.
Read literally any biography on his life (except for the one written by him). H3 spent his life fucking his best friends' wives (one, Cosima he even married - when this happened Hans Von bulow was the most loyal and most capable of his friends, and this is how Wagner repaid him), and he basically stole money from them just to pay for his luxurious lifestyle. And when they would get fed up he would just destroy their reputation, usually by slander. The more you get to know him, the more you realize that he was a low life piece of shit who happened to be a talented composer.
>Maybe if you're retarded and don't understand the history of music. Bach and Wagner are doing completely different things, and to ignore Wagner's musical originality only shows your own ignorance.
Don't be such a relativist.

[Anonymous No.18571868]

>>18571704
>Wagner was a pathological narcissist and a sociopath
That's the other side of the coin of being great.
It's like expecting a bull terrier to excel at dog ring fighting, while scolding it for not being friendly as a pug.

[Anonymous No.18571873]

>>18571681
what's stopping you?

[Anonymous No.18571892]

>>18571868
Countless other composers proved that artists do not require to engage in quirks like these to produce great art. Only a dolt (or, more in general, a spiritually weak person) could believe that Wagner needed to betray all his friends in order to compose what he composed. Why didn't Bach, Mozart and Beethoven had to do so? What about Goethe, Horderlin and Schiller? The answer is: it's because it wasn't necessary. Wagner did so not out of necessity, but only because he was a genuine sociopath who held no consideration for other people's lives

[Anonymous No.18571937]

>>18571827
>spent his life fucking his best friends' wives
This is a stereotypical artist's life. It's just petty to criticise artist's for something like this.

>and he basically stole money from them just to pay for his luxurious lifestyle
Well that's just a lie, by the time he was with Cosima he was already being funded by Ludwig so there would be no need for him to ask others to pay for expensive silks.

>Don't be such a relativist.
It's not relativism, if you're going to ignore the difference of era and the fact that they were doing completely different things, and compare them by weighing up every little detail, then Wagner would come out on top. Show me a piece by Bach which can compare to Wagner's orchestration, you cannot, but it would be mistaken to say Wagner were superior to Bach on the whole because of this. Music has moved past preludes and fugues, and what Bach and Wagner did for their respective times, places them together equally as greats.

>>18571892
>betrayed all his friends
Blatantly false.

[Anonymous No.18571958]

>>18571892
>Why didn't Bach, Mozart and Beethoven had to do so?
Because Bach, Mozart and Beethoven did not produce anything *ambitious*, dolt.

Wagner has popular support, because of how radical his shit was. His was the movement, the philosophy.
Mozart was famous because he was a young kid, an exoticity for the entertainment of others. Like a dancing bear. As soon as he grew up, none but nerds appreciated him.

>What about Goethe
Different subtype of great human individual. Not a man of action. Contemplative and introverted.
>Horderlin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Hölderlin#Mental_breakdown

[Anonymous No.18572029]

aw sweet another wagner thread...

[Anonymous No.18572035]

>>18571681
Because art is dead now. Only the market matters now. There's plenty of people who go "I'm great and I'm going to make a load of fucking money".

[Anonymous No.18572049]

>>18571958
>Beethoven did not produce anything ambitious
You're absolutely pants on head fucking retarded

[Anonymous No.18572068]

>>18571892
>Beethoven
Do you know anything about Beethoven's life? By your own standards he was much much worse than Wagner.

[Anonymous No.18572086]

>>18571958

[Anonymous No.18572257]

>>18571704
Bach did definitely not live a harsher life than Wagner. Was Bach ever sentenced to death?

[Anonymous No.18572270]

>>18572257
This. Wagner lived both a harsher and more luxurious life than Bach.

[Anonymous No.18572400]

>>18571958
not anon but how the fuck did you come to think of Goethe as introverted?

[Anonymous No.18572466]

>>18571681
I say this. My name will be remembered by millions after my death no matter the price

[Anonymous No.18572470]

>>18572466
Faust.. easy on the Mephistopheles.

[Anonymous No.18572764]

>>18571656
Hahaha, ich lache zuletzt, Richard! Ich bin der Gigachad Warrior Skull und du der gay Alien Skull!

[Anonymous No.18572803]

>>18572764

[Anonymous No.18572818]

>>18572764
Nietzsche looks closer to the head on the right as well.

[Anonymous No.18572837]

>>18572803

[Anonymous No.18572849]

>>18572818
Nietzsche looks like a silverback gorilla, cope harder

[Anonymous No.18572862]

>>18571958
Listen to Beethoven’s string quartets and Bach’s Musical Offering and Art of the Fugue, then tell me they weren’t ambitious

[Anonymous No.18572869]

>>18572849
Nietzsche was an extremely feeble and sickly person, kill yourself immediately.

[Anonymous No.18573216]

>>18572869
>kill yourself immediately.
assmad at the übermensch

[Anonymous No.18573902]

>>18572862
What about Mozart?